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P54
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hondadude wrote:
Test drove a 2012 Ford Focus SEL Hatchback last night...WOW what a great ride! It makes my 2012 Civic EX sedan look not so good. The price was great too...$19,909 this weekend only. I really liked the sporty ride quality, steering, and solidity. Also excellent interior quality. Also love the fact that it's a hatchback and looks super sharp. Very, very tempting car. This is why Honda needs to sell the Civic hatchback here.
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How many Focus hatchback goes to RETAIL customers compared to Civic sedan? Honda Civic hatchback comes "within three years". And a wagon?
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xBeastx
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hondadude wrote:
Test drove a 2012 Ford Focus SEL Hatchback last night...WOW what a great ride! It makes my 2012 Civic EX sedan look not so good. The price was great too...$19,909 this weekend only. I really liked the sporty ride quality, steering, and solidity. Also excellent interior quality. Also love the fact that it's a hatchback and looks super sharp. Very, very tempting car. This is why Honda needs to sell the Civic hatchback here.
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Personally, I've seen more Focus Hatchbacks in my area than the sedan version. I would love to see Honda bring the Civic Hatch here.
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DCR
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P54 wrote:
So what do you think about this upcoming Honda?
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Is he moving to Russia?
Don't get your hopes up on a drawing...the wheels wouldn't really even turn in that size.
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mobis21
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hondadude wrote:
Test drove a 2012 Ford Focus SEL Hatchback last night...WOW what a great ride! It makes my 2012 Civic EX sedan look not so good. The price was great too...$19,909 this weekend only. I really liked the sporty ride quality, steering, and solidity. Also excellent interior quality. Also love the fact that it's a hatchback and looks super sharp. Very, very tempting car. This is why Honda needs to sell the Civic hatchback here.
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I doubt anyone looking at 50K Audis and BMWs is going to consider a rental car Ford Focus as a comparison.
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330R
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P54 wrote:
hondadude wrote:
Test drove a 2012 Ford Focus SEL Hatchback last night...WOW what a great ride! It makes my 2012 Civic EX sedan look not so good. The price was great too...$19,909 this weekend only. I really liked the sporty ride quality, steering, and solidity. Also excellent interior quality. Also love the fact that it's a hatchback and looks super sharp. Very, very tempting car. This is why Honda needs to sell the Civic hatchback here.
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How many Focus hatchback goes to RETAIL customers compared to Civic sedan? Honda Civic hatchback comes "within three years". And a wagon?
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Are you trying to say hondadude shouldn't like the Focus SEL hatchback because Ford does more fleet than Honda? I hope that's some sort of argument centered around resale value. Resale is one consideration. So is finding what you like. You seem so defensive for the Civic because someone liked the Focus. "What do you mean, "WOW what a great ride!". Don't you know Ford sells more units to rental car companies!? Won't you please think of the Civic?"
Oh, gee, let's add another "within three years" candidate to the roster of 'hope & dream in one hand and poop in the other and see which fills up first'. Let's see a link to this hatchback confirmation. Sheesh, I'm still waiting for you to tell us about the "amazing" powertrains from Honda that you were on about some time back. I ask, you're silent. Nothin'.
Yes, this is how I get when I see your defensive Captain Save-A-Honda sales pitches.
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hondadude
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P54 wrote:
hondadude wrote:
Test drove a 2012 Ford Focus SEL Hatchback last night...WOW what a great ride! It makes my 2012 Civic EX sedan look not so good. The price was great too...$19,909 this weekend only. I really liked the sporty ride quality, steering, and solidity. Also excellent interior quality. Also love the fact that it's a hatchback and looks super sharp. Very, very tempting car. This is why Honda needs to sell the Civic hatchback here.
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How many Focus hatchback goes to RETAIL customers compared to Civic sedan? Honda Civic hatchback comes "within three years". And a wagon?
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Civic hatchback within 3 years? That's great news. Honda needs the hatchback now, though. Not sure why we have to wait 3 years when they have a perfectly capable Civic hatchback currently available in Europe, South Africa, and Australia.
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330R
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| 330R wrote:... and it always seems to be "within three years"... |
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DCR
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330R wrote:
P54 wrote:
hondadude wrote:
Test drove a 2012 Ford Focus SEL Hatchback last night...WOW what a great ride! It makes my 2012 Civic EX sedan look not so good. The price was great too...$19,909 this weekend only. I really liked the sporty ride quality, steering, and solidity. Also excellent interior quality. Also love the fact that it's a hatchback and looks super sharp. Very, very tempting car. This is why Honda needs to sell the Civic hatchback here.
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How many Focus hatchback goes to RETAIL customers compared to Civic sedan? Honda Civic hatchback comes "within three years". And a wagon?
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Are you trying to say hondadude shouldn't like the Focus SEL hatchback because Ford does more fleet than Honda? I hope that's some sort of argument centered around resale value. Resale is one consideration. So is finding what you like. You seem so defensive for the Civic because someone liked the Focus. "What do you mean, "WOW what a great ride!". Don't you know Ford sells more units to rental car companies!? Won't you please think of the Civic?"
Oh, gee, let's add another "within three years" candidate to the roster of 'hope & dream in one hand and poop in the other and see which fills up first'. Let's see a link to this hatchback confirmation. Sheesh, I'm still waiting for you to tell us about the "amazing" powertrains from Honda that you were on about some time back. I ask, you're silent. Nothin'.
Yes, this is how I get when I see your defensive Captain Save-A-Honda sales pitches.
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The Camry gets knocked down because of fleet sales too. Subtract the fleet sales last year and it still outsells the Accord, and yet the resale estimates per trim seem to come out neck and neck.
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fladdams2k1
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Agree 100%. I've had several friends who've jumped to the German marques from Honda/Acura only to be disappointed the 'superior' engineering they expected did not quite live up to the reliability and value they'd grown used to with Honda products. Dont get me wrong, the German offerings easily trump pretty much anything Honda/Acura has to offer in terms of performance, looks and features, however the reliability and maintenance costs are a big barrier and the jaw dropping depreciation doesn't lessen that sting.
Case in point, my previous boss picked up a cherry 2007 Audi S8 V10 (in 2010) for $50k. Now, thats a great deal (car was over 100k new) but to drop over 50k in 3 years?! Then the maintenance costs started racking up..1500 bucks for the interior rear window shade, another thousand here, a thousand there, next thing you know this "great deal" juiced more than $5,000 worth of repairs out of him in a year. Most notably the fancy 'air ride' strut that blew out. Talk about $$.
IMO, if you want German and dont want to sacrifice in reliability or value, go for a used Porsche 911. They're actually rated higher in reliability and maintenance costs aren't really higher than the Beemer or Audi. I've seen great specimens in the $40-50k range.
I honestly think the older German cars were the best. I'd take an E30 M3 anyday over a new one! Until that day, I'll keep my S2000 :-)
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330R
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And I don't want to sound like resale value isn't important and that Honda shouldn't be recognized for keeping their customers' vehicle values strong. That's a good thing. Thanks to strong resale, I could sell my 2011 Si sedan for what I paid for it 10 months ago. Thanks also to the less well received 2012 Si that in its first model year, folks on the 9th gen forum are picking up for less than I paid for my used last model year Si w/7500 miles.
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DCR
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330R wrote:
And I don't want to sound like resale value isn't important and that Honda shouldn't be recognized for keeping their customers' vehicle values strong. That's a good thing. Thanks to strong resale, I could sell my 2011 Si sedan for what I paid for it 10 months ago. Thanks also to the less well received 2012 Si that in its first model year, folks on the 9th gen forum are picking up for less than I paid for my used last model year Si w/7500 miles.
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Funny you mention that. One local dealer was giving away a nav Si a bit ago.
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330R
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That's only $700 more than I paid for my base model. /schadenfreude
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HONDA AFVM
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xsr wrote:
Time to move on. Looking to purchase new wheels in the next few weeks. After thorough research, it's between the sweet sweet 335ix and S4, manual mais oui.
I could say Honda has nothing to offer but I think it's more that I have outgrown what Honda/Acura has (and will have) to offer me as an enthusiast in the market for a well balanced, fast and luxurious awd sedan. And that's ok. I wish them well and all that.
I'll continue to check into vtec occasionally, it's been a habit for too many years to count. I wish Jeff, Shawn and the crew continued success.
And who know, maybe Honda (Acura) will surprise me in the next 5-8 years, come full circle, and offer truly competitive cars to the likes of the S4 and 335.
Adios.
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xrs.....
I wish you good luck.........BUT, as an insider to the car world, I see the BMW's and Audi's and Benz come in on trade 3, 4, 5 years later and me tell you, they are mostly nightmares, the more miles they have on them, the worse they are. Little things, squeaks, rattles, knobs, electrical gremlins.....Audi's mostly, then Benz......
BMW's are just weird driving cars.........We have 3 of them on our lot now, all traded in for Accords and they all had problems that cost us as a dealer THOUSANDS to fix........we don't even keep Audi's anymore unless they are SUPER clean. They are the WORST each costing THOUSANDS with in 6 months after the sale.........We honor the customer when we sell them a product, so we can't say no........So we fix it.......
Acura's, Lexus........UNBELIEVABLE quality, not even Infiniti can hold a candle to a 4 year old Acura or Lexus.......
All I am saying is, THINK, and don't be so focused on looks and more focused on drive and safety.........and a 6 speed TL is by FAR as good as ANY German car offered in it's class........I drive them ALL and the BMW's feel JUST as heavy as an Audi as a Benz........and they ALL feel heaver then A TL.........
THAT, is my soap box........Good Luck........
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P54
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
xsr wrote:
Time to move on. Looking to purchase new wheels in the next few weeks. After thorough research, it's between the sweet sweet 335ix and S4, manual mais oui.
I could say Honda has nothing to offer but I think it's more that I have outgrown what Honda/Acura has (and will have) to offer me as an enthusiast in the market for a well balanced, fast and luxurious awd sedan. And that's ok. I wish them well and all that.
I'll continue to check into vtec occasionally, it's been a habit for too many years to count. I wish Jeff, Shawn and the crew continued success.
And who know, maybe Honda (Acura) will surprise me in the next 5-8 years, come full circle, and offer truly competitive cars to the likes of the S4 and 335.
Adios.
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xrs.....
I wish you good luck.........BUT, as an insider to the car world, I see the BMW's and Audi's and Benz come in on trade 3, 4, 5 years later and me tell you, they are mostly nightmares, the more miles they have on them, the worse they are. Little things, squeaks, rattles, knobs, electrical gremlins.....Audi's mostly, then Benz......
BMW's are just weird driving cars.........We have 3 of them on our lot now, all traded in for Accords and they all had problems that cost us as a dealer THOUSANDS to fix........we don't even keep Audi's anymore unless they are SUPER clean. They are the WORST each costing THOUSANDS with in 6 months after the sale.........We honor the customer when we sell them a product, so we can't say no........So we fix it.......
Acura's, Lexus........UNBELIEVABLE quality, not even Infiniti can hold a candle to a 4 year old Acura or Lexus.......
All I am saying is, THINK, and don't be so focused on looks and more focused on drive and safety.........and a 6 speed TL is by FAR as good as ANY German car offered in it's class........I drive them ALL and the BMW's feel JUST as heavy as an Audi as a Benz........and they ALL feel heaver then A TL.........
THAT, is my soap box........Good Luck........
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Don't worry, people usually come to their senses once they rack up the cost of buying and owning the Germans. Sometimes people get so spoiled with Honda and so focused on negative internet spew that they get lured to other brands. Let them do it, it serves them well. As he said, he has outgrown Honda, fair enough, now lets see if real life treats him the way he expects. Many before him have done the same and usually come back to their senses when the bills have to be paid.
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cgx
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xsr wrote:
Time to move on.
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Every so often I check back when a new model is released to see what is what, and Jeff writes up a nice, objective review worth reading every time out.
I've had a great experience with both Bimmers, and the N55 in the 11 is the same in the new F30 – give it 600 miles, find an open stretch to open it up and be prepared to appreciate a truly great engine. If there is a better daily driver, I haven't driven it.
Having test driven the F30, I prefer the steering feel found in the outgoing E90/1 and present E92/93 coupe. It may take BMW a bit of time to adjust for the switch to electronic steering. Response is as good or better, but my hands were left wanting for more of the road.
Good luck!
P.S. How bout them powerplant options in the ILX?
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P54
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hondadude wrote:
P54 wrote:
hondadude wrote:
Test drove a 2012 Ford Focus SEL Hatchback last night...WOW what a great ride! It makes my 2012 Civic EX sedan look not so good. The price was great too...$19,909 this weekend only. I really liked the sporty ride quality, steering, and solidity. Also excellent interior quality. Also love the fact that it's a hatchback and looks super sharp. Very, very tempting car. This is why Honda needs to sell the Civic hatchback here.
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How many Focus hatchback goes to RETAIL customers compared to Civic sedan? Honda Civic hatchback comes "within three years". And a wagon?
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Civic hatchback within 3 years? That's great news. Honda needs the hatchback now, though. Not sure why we have to wait 3 years when they have a perfectly capable Civic hatchback currently available in Europe, South Africa, and Australia.
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Honda will develop from ground up the next Civic in USA. 2016?
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330R
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Well that says "hatchback" all over it! Solid!
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P54
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330R wrote:
P54 wrote:
hondadude wrote:
Test drove a 2012 Ford Focus SEL Hatchback last night...WOW what a great ride! It makes my 2012 Civic EX sedan look not so good. The price was great too...$19,909 this weekend only. I really liked the sporty ride quality, steering, and solidity. Also excellent interior quality. Also love the fact that it's a hatchback and looks super sharp. Very, very tempting car. This is why Honda needs to sell the Civic hatchback here.
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How many Focus hatchback goes to RETAIL customers compared to Civic sedan? Honda Civic hatchback comes "within three years". And a wagon?
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Are you trying to say hondadude shouldn't like the Focus SEL hatchback because Ford does more fleet than Honda? I hope that's some sort of argument centered around resale value. Resale is one consideration. So is finding what you like. You seem so defensive for the Civic because someone liked the Focus. "What do you mean, "WOW what a great ride!". Don't you know Ford sells more units to rental car companies!? Won't you please think of the Civic?"
Oh, gee, let's add another "within three years" candidate to the roster of 'hope & dream in one hand and poop in the other and see which fills up first'. Let's see a link to this hatchback confirmation. Sheesh, I'm still waiting for you to tell us about the "amazing" powertrains from Honda that you were on about some time back. I ask, you're silent. Nothin'.
Yes, this is how I get when I see your defensive Captain Save-A-Honda sales pitches.
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It was a simple question. Got the impression that USA market favored sedan, not hatchback and that is why some manufacturers are reluctant to bring hatchbacks to USA. So I simply asked how many hatchbacks are sold to retail customers versus sedan. Fleet sales are of no interest, only what actual retail customers want and buy. This to see if his statement "This is why Honda needs to sell the Civic hatchback here." is relevant to the actual market situation.
I asked, maybe you have the answer?
Regarding the Civic I have no confirmation, however a consideration from the top is a whole lot better than a no.
Development in the U.S. won’t just mean that the 2016 Civic will be more desirable to U.S. buyers either. It will hopefully be cheaper.
With the drive towards ever-more efficient cars and Honda’s ongoing commitment to greener engines, Berkman says the 2016 Civic will be offered with a variety of different powertrains, but gave no specifics on exactly which fuel types would be included.
Interestingly however, Berkman said Honda is considering reintroducing a hatchback Civic to its U.S. lineup. |
http://www.themadeinamericamovement.com/2/post/2012/08/hondas-2016-civic-will-be-developed-built-in-the-us.html
Honda is considering bringing a five-door hatchback version of the Civic compact to the U.S., a top executive told journalists.
The next generation is expected around 2016. It will have multiple body styles – a 5-door hatchback is under consideration for North America – as well as many different powertrains.
"We will continue to refine the current model this fall," Berkman said.
"They are fairly substantial styling changes." |
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/08/honda-may-bring-5-door-civic-hatchback-to-us/1#.UEVTw9ZlSYU
Regarding the new drive-trains, you will find out soon and "within the next three years". Will sure be better than the 2 and 3 cylinders coming from other places.
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330R
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I don't know the breakdown of Focus sedans versus hatchbacks sold to retail customers off hand, and I'm not curious enough to research it. I'm sure the answer is out there. I read a while back that Ford was happy or surprised at the take rate on Fiesta and Focus hatchbacks. I don't know what the percentage is.
It's nice that Erik Berkman is reiterating Honda's consideration of a Civic hatchback for America. I'll give it a bit more weight than having Mendel say it, but Mendel has been on record in the past as well, saying a hatchback is not off the table or out of the question.
Regarding the drivetrains, what do you know? Let's find out now, rather than soon. Do you know something concrete? The reason I'm busting your chops on this is because you can't just come out and pour everyone Kool-Aid, saying amazing powertrains are on their way, and not have anything to quantify that statement.
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330R
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From your USA Today link, a commenter said "40% of Focus sales are 5-doors, and they are a premium (cost) over the sedan"
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Trip
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I have to chime in on the reliability thing ... My Mazda 6 has almost 75000 miles on it and has been dead reliable. I'm even on the original brake pads with plenty of meat on them. It's been a great car.
I totally get what xsr has said about moving on. I thought I'd never own anything but a Honda. I would still recommend a few models but I finally realized that Honda no longer met my needs or desires. Ironically, my 6 feels more like my Prelude than than my 08 Accord did.
On that note, like xsr's S2000, I still drive my 1989 Prelude to remind me of the good old days. :)
It looks like Honda is turning around. Im genuinely impressed Wi what we've seen on the new Accord. Unfortunately it looks like Acura is still floundering. It will be interesting to see what the near future brings.
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TurkMan71
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DCR wrote:
P54 wrote:
So what do you think about this upcoming Honda?
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Is he moving to Russia?
Don't get your hopes up on a drawing...the wheels wouldn't really even turn in that size.
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For some perspective, remember illustrations are always very...illustrative. See how the handsome sport sedan turned into the conservative (but still ok) family sedan? It's the same car folks...
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Nick GravesX
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I know stylists' renderings have to be exaggerated in order to convey the point, but the poor old (new) Accord looks like Mr. Magoo's car in comparison.
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linty
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xsr wrote:
I've been driving my in-laws S4 this weekend (DCT) and man, it's really a sweet piece of machinery. I'm leaning towards the S4 but keeping an open mind when I test drive the 335 tomorrow. I'll make a final decision Tuesday night.
RE reliability: I too was stuck in the mode of thinking only Honda can make reliable cars, but Audi and BMW have made great strides in recent years and really I don't think it's an issue anymore.
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Good Luck on your Decision xsr!! I was looking at these vehicles back in 2010 and in the end put my decision on hold due to the economy and making sure my business was securely established before going forward. My choice back then though and still today would have been the S4.
In regards to reliabilty, I agree with you 100%. I also use to be brain washed into believing that only Japanese companies like Honda, Toyota etc could make reliable vehicles (Family use to own a Toyota dealership), but since adding our first German vehicle to the family 8 years ago, i finally realised this reliabilty perception is blown out of proportion IMHO. Maybe 20-30 years ago it held more weight but today the gap is very close.
I looked closely at the 2010 TL 6MT back in 2010 and i was the same as you that the styling really turned me off, although two other things had just as big of an impact on me and that was the poor versatility and more importantly the poor build quality of the vehicle.
The 4G section isnt very active here but if you go over to the 4G section at forums like Acurazine you will see what i mean.
There are many threads that where finally linked together about very excessive oil burning in the 3.7 L models. Many people have complained to Acura and their shocking response was that 1 quart for every 1000 miles is considered normal oil consumption.
Then there are the MANY threads of people replacing their prop/driveshafts as the SH-AWD's are know since the 2005 RL to have this problem. (Some even on their 3rd replacement in only 20,000 miles.
There is also the numerous amounts of torque convertors being replaced and Acura apparently is finally issuing a recall on the problem because its become such a big issue.
I dont even want to begin with all squeaks, rattles, blown speakers, etc etc etc issues that have been common since day one in the 4G.
While I know many here are now going to think that im just bashing Honda/Acura, its simply not the case. Do they and other Japanese companies still make good vehicles?? Yes they do but this perception that they never fail and that European and NA brands are horrible is simply false in todays world IMO.
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linty
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P54 wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
xsr wrote:
Time to move on. Looking to purchase new wheels in the next few weeks. After thorough research, it's between the sweet sweet 335ix and S4, manual mais oui.
I could say Honda has nothing to offer but I think it's more that I have outgrown what Honda/Acura has (and will have) to offer me as an enthusiast in the market for a well balanced, fast and luxurious awd sedan. And that's ok. I wish them well and all that.
I'll continue to check into vtec occasionally, it's been a habit for too many years to count. I wish Jeff, Shawn and the crew continued success.
And who know, maybe Honda (Acura) will surprise me in the next 5-8 years, come full circle, and offer truly competitive cars to the likes of the S4 and 335.
Adios.
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xrs.....
I wish you good luck.........BUT, as an insider to the car world, I see the BMW's and Audi's and Benz come in on trade 3, 4, 5 years later and me tell you, they are mostly nightmares, the more miles they have on them, the worse they are. Little things, squeaks, rattles, knobs, electrical gremlins.....Audi's mostly, then Benz......
BMW's are just weird driving cars.........We have 3 of them on our lot now, all traded in for Accords and they all had problems that cost us as a dealer THOUSANDS to fix........we don't even keep Audi's anymore unless they are SUPER clean. They are the WORST each costing THOUSANDS with in 6 months after the sale.........We honor the customer when we sell them a product, so we can't say no........So we fix it.......
Acura's, Lexus........UNBELIEVABLE quality, not even Infiniti can hold a candle to a 4 year old Acura or Lexus.......
All I am saying is, THINK, and don't be so focused on looks and more focused on drive and safety.........and a 6 speed TL is by FAR as good as ANY German car offered in it's class........I drive them ALL and the BMW's feel JUST as heavy as an Audi as a Benz........and they ALL feel heaver then A TL.........
THAT, is my soap box........Good Luck........
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Don't worry, people usually come to their senses once they rack up the cost of buying and owning the Germans. Sometimes people get so spoiled with Honda and so focused on negative internet spew that they get lured to other brands. Let them do it, it serves them well. As he said, he has outgrown Honda, fair enough, now lets see if real life treats him the way he expects. Many before him have done the same and usually come back to their senses when the bills have to be paid.
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There is some truth to what you said about internet spew and real life.
I use to believe alot of the internet spew about German reliability and so much that I leased my VAG product because of it.
The real life result though was so different that I purchased it after the lease and the total cost of ownership for myself (especially after the warranty) was much less after 8 years than any Honda or Toyota I have owned so far.......The only other vehicle that has served us slightly better outside of warranty is the Subaru that we also currently own.
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P54
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linty wrote:
xsr wrote:
I've been driving my in-laws S4 this weekend (DCT) and man, it's really a sweet piece of machinery. I'm leaning towards the S4 but keeping an open mind when I test drive the 335 tomorrow. I'll make a final decision Tuesday night.
RE reliability: I too was stuck in the mode of thinking only Honda can make reliable cars, but Audi and BMW have made great strides in recent years and really I don't think it's an issue anymore.
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Good Luck on your Decision xsr!! I was looking at these vehicles back in 2010 and in the end put my decision on hold due to the economy and making sure my business was securely established before going forward. My choice back then though and still today would have been the S4.
In regards to reliabilty, I agree with you 100%. I also use to be brain washed into believing that only Japanese companies like Honda, Toyota etc could make reliable vehicles (Family use to own a Toyota dealership), but since adding our first German vehicle to the family 8 years ago, i finally realised this reliabilty perception is blown out of proportion IMHO. Maybe 20-30 years ago it held more weight but today the gap is very close.
I looked closely at the 2010 TL 6MT back in 2010 and i was the same as you that the styling really turned me off, although two other things had just as big of an impact on me and that was the poor versatility and more importantly the poor build quality of the vehicle.
The 4G section isnt very active here but if you go over to the 4G section at forums like Acurazine you will see what i mean.
There are many threads that where finally linked together about very excessive oil burning in the 3.7 L models. Many people have complained to Acura and their shocking response was that 1 quart for every 1000 miles is considered normal oil consumption.
Then there are the MANY threads of people replacing their prop/driveshafts as the SH-AWD's are know since the 2005 RL to have this problem. (Some even on their 3rd replacement in only 20,000 miles.
There is also the numerous amounts of torque convertors being replaced and Acura apparently is finally issuing a recall on the problem because its become such a big issue.
I dont even want to begin with all squeaks, rattles, blown speakers, etc etc etc issues that have been common since day one in the 4G.
While I know many here are now going to think that im just bashing Honda/Acura, its simply not the case. Do they and other Japanese companies still make good vehicles?? Yes they do but this perception that they never fail and that European and NA brands are horrible is simply false in todays world IMO.
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Back in the days when Volvo had oil burning problems Volvo claimed that if the burn was within 1 Liter (1+qt.) per 1000 km (625 miles) it was normal.
1 qt. oil burn per 625 miles or 1000 miles is NOT normal whatever the car manufacturer says. If that was normal the oil sump should be plumbed to an auxiliary tank so it could get new supply as needed.
You can get good or bad from any manufacturer and peoples experiences differ, however on average the Japanese made cars stands above the rest when it comes to reliability.
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notyper
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Just as a reference, there isn't a major manufacturer that I know of today that _won't_ tell you that 1 qt/1k miles is acceptable. Simple fact, low tension oil rings (for lower friction) and high revs will burn oil. No way around it. Add in PCV and EGR issues and some oil consumption _is_ normal. IIRC Porsche used to say that 1 qt/600 miles is considered normal, even expected - at least on the older models.
When you think about it, even at 1 qt/1k miles, you're burning about 1 quart for every 50 gallons of gas. Sure, we'd all like to be able to go between oil changes without ever checking the oil, but that isn't realistic, and adding a quart once a month or so isn't so bad.
Regarding Euro's vs. the rest, while we all have anecdotal stories, the general evidence available from CR (hate those bastards) and other less seasoned sources suggest that you're going to have more issues with a Euro car, and that those issues will probably be more expensive (I find that one area the Japanese have historically done a great job is in designing for servicability, the Germans historically suck at this).
Some of this may be due to a larger feature set = more complexity, and some may be due to a push for longer service intervals, and some may just be due other misc factors. But you're taking a larger risk and spending more money to do so in many cases with the Euros (Germans in particular). Costs and benefits.
SC
linty wrote:
There are many threads that where finally linked together about very excessive oil burning in the 3.7 L models. Many people have complained to Acura and their shocking response was that 1 quart for every 1000 miles is considered normal oil consumption.
While I know many here are now going to think that im just bashing Honda/Acura, its simply not the case. Do they and other Japanese companies still make good vehicles?? Yes they do but this perception that they never fail and that European and NA brands are horrible is simply false in todays world IMO.
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owequitit
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linty wrote:
P54 wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
xsr wrote:
Time to move on. Looking to purchase new wheels in the next few weeks. After thorough research, it's between the sweet sweet 335ix and S4, manual mais oui.
I could say Honda has nothing to offer but I think it's more that I have outgrown what Honda/Acura has (and will have) to offer me as an enthusiast in the market for a well balanced, fast and luxurious awd sedan. And that's ok. I wish them well and all that.
I'll continue to check into vtec occasionally, it's been a habit for too many years to count. I wish Jeff, Shawn and the crew continued success.
And who know, maybe Honda (Acura) will surprise me in the next 5-8 years, come full circle, and offer truly competitive cars to the likes of the S4 and 335.
Adios.
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xrs.....
I wish you good luck.........BUT, as an insider to the car world, I see the BMW's and Audi's and Benz come in on trade 3, 4, 5 years later and me tell you, they are mostly nightmares, the more miles they have on them, the worse they are. Little things, squeaks, rattles, knobs, electrical gremlins.....Audi's mostly, then Benz......
BMW's are just weird driving cars.........We have 3 of them on our lot now, all traded in for Accords and they all had problems that cost us as a dealer THOUSANDS to fix........we don't even keep Audi's anymore unless they are SUPER clean. They are the WORST each costing THOUSANDS with in 6 months after the sale.........We honor the customer when we sell them a product, so we can't say no........So we fix it.......
Acura's, Lexus........UNBELIEVABLE quality, not even Infiniti can hold a candle to a 4 year old Acura or Lexus.......
All I am saying is, THINK, and don't be so focused on looks and more focused on drive and safety.........and a 6 speed TL is by FAR as good as ANY German car offered in it's class........I drive them ALL and the BMW's feel JUST as heavy as an Audi as a Benz........and they ALL feel heaver then A TL.........
THAT, is my soap box........Good Luck........
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Don't worry, people usually come to their senses once they rack up the cost of buying and owning the Germans. Sometimes people get so spoiled with Honda and so focused on negative internet spew that they get lured to other brands. Let them do it, it serves them well. As he said, he has outgrown Honda, fair enough, now lets see if real life treats him the way he expects. Many before him have done the same and usually come back to their senses when the bills have to be paid.
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There is some truth to what you said about internet spew and real life.
I use to believe alot of the internet spew about German reliability and so much that I leased my VAG product because of it.
The real life result though was so different that I purchased it after the lease and the total cost of ownership for myself (especially after the warranty) was much less after 8 years than any Honda or Toyota I have owned so far.......The only other vehicle that has served us slightly better outside of warranty is the Subaru that we also currently own.
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The only issue I have with your position is that statistically, it simply doesn't bare out as fact. From a purely numberical standpoint, the Germans are, and always have been, lower on reliability and higher on cost of ownership. Perhaps people can accept that with the perceived advantages, but it is pretty hard to pretend the difference doesn't exist. The maker provided routine maintenance for whatever period helps, but then again, in my German car experience you are going to quickly make up for it as the car comes out of warranty, as maintenance costs typically skyrocket. I don't have as many VW friends, but I do have quite a few Bimmer and Benz owners, and they ALL spend a ton of money. Those two also typically rank higher than VW in any study I have seen.
I am not saying you can't get a good German car, but the reality is that for every 1 VW product you can point to with no problems, I can probably point to 5 or more Hondas or Toyotas with no problems. I mean, do you really want to talk about BOTH of our 20+ year old Accords that literally had ZERO long term maintenace costs other than oil changes, brakepads and tires for the first 60-90K, and nothing other than T-belts outside of that? P.S. the 90 is now sitting at just shy of 260K and that is still the case...
Also, I find it highly suspect that even a majority of 3.7L engines are burning oil, as forums tend to concentrate complaints since those are one of the first resources used when people have issues. Again, the VW forums are chockablock with people having issues, as are sites like Bobistheoilguy etc. The other variable to consider is that the RL and MDX both use that same basic engine (the MDX is quantities that are several orders of magnitude higher), so how do we know that it isn't driving habits, break-in technique etc? There are a lot of variables that just aren't being accounted for in your argument.
I agree that having routine maintenance included in the purchase reduces the cost. However, you also have to consider that A) that doesn't eliminate the need for it, and B) it isn't necessarily convenient for people like me who live 100 miles away from the nearest dealer.
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P54
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The switch to low viscosity oil is also a reason for more oil burning. Honda motorcycle engines with 10+K rpm have gone 15000 miles on oil without the need to add oil (using10W40 oil).
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xsr
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Great discussion gentlemen, lots to ponder.
After spending the day test-driving, poking around and discussing with my contacts, the S4 is out. I'm either going to go with a loaded 2012 328ix coupe or 2013 335ix coupe, depending on the deal.
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