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P54
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Honda Becomes World’s First Mobility Company to Disclose Estimates of All Greenhouse Gas Emissions
TOKYO, Japan, August 25, 2012 - Honda Motor Co. Ltd. became the world’s first*1 mobility company to disclose estimates of all of its greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions including emissions from Honda’s global business operations and customer use of Honda motorcycles, automobiles and power products.
By calculating and disclosing global GHG emissions as a responsible company engaged in the area of mobility, Honda will continue making proactive progress with its global initiatives to reduce GHG and further extend the Honda LCA (Life Cycle Assessment) approach.
http://world.honda.com/news/2012/c120825Greenhouse-Gas-Emissions/index.html
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MalcolmR
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Why?
Malcolm
:)
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P54
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MalcolmR wrote:
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Why?
Malcolm
:)
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Why I posted or why Honda is world's first or why Honda bother?
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330R
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I wish you'd made it clear in the thread title that this was about some enviroweenie bullshit so I wouldn't have bothered clicking.
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danielgr
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P54 wrote:
Honda Becomes World’s First Mobility Company to Disclose Estimates of All Greenhouse Gas Emissions
TOKYO, Japan, August 25, 2012 - Honda Motor Co. Ltd. became the world’s first*1 mobility company to disclose estimates of all of its greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions including emissions from Honda’s global business operations and customer use of Honda motorcycles, automobiles and power products.
By calculating and disclosing global GHG emissions as a responsible company engaged in the area of mobility, Honda will continue making proactive progress with its global initiatives to reduce GHG and further extend the Honda LCA (Life Cycle Assessment) approach.
http://world.honda.com/news/2012/c120825Greenhouse-Gas-Emissions/index.html
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That said, before you get more welcoming answers I will actually comment on the news.
Personally, I'm not so interested on the absolute figure because that's so big its difficult to get an idea without making comparisons, which aren't readily made since there is no many other companies or institutions doing it.
What I found interesting is the share of each "activity". Not that it is surprising, but still nice to see the actual figure published clearly. For as much effort Honda may be doing in manufacturing and related activities, it is pretty clear that most impact goes in the driving of their products, so that's where their greatest efforts should focus.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that figure is underrated because it is likely they use rated fuel efficiency to calculate it, and in most places around the world actual real world efficiency is well below the ratings.
As usual, thanks for sharing.
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P54
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330R wrote:
I wish you'd made it clear in the thread title that this was about some enviroweenie bullshit so I wouldn't have bothered clicking.
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Read the thread title again, more slowly and you might get it. Hint: "....leading in a new era".
Whether you believe it or not this is what the world is coming too, all manufacturers have to face the reality sooner or later. Just look at the downsizing from all manufacturers, whether the common Ford or VW or Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari etc.
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330R
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I can read it slowly, quickly.. it's just miserable bullshit at any speed. Tout this garbage somewhere else.
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danielgr
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PS: I just wished people not interested simply passed on it. No-one should feel the irrepressible need to give an opinion on anything that is published or said on the board...
This is a brand new thread, not an uncalled comment on an unrelated post, and it's simply bringing up some news for those interested. If you are not, that's fine, let those that are interested discussing in peace without insulting each other.
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owequitit
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P54 wrote:
330R wrote:
I wish you'd made it clear in the thread title that this was about some enviroweenie bullshit so I wouldn't have bothered clicking.
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Read the thread title again, more slowly and you might get it. Hint: "....leading in a new era".
Whether you believe it or not this is what the world is coming too, all manufacturers have to face the reality sooner or later. Just look at the downsizing from all manufacturers, whether the common Ford or VW or Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari etc.
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A new era of irrelevancy?
If only Honda spent the millions of dollars they spent quantifying their CO2 output into products that actually sell...
Of course the most AGW friendly company is the one that doesn't exist isn't it?
I can't wait for the next 20 years when people realize how insignificant and full of shit they are.
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superchg2
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Honda, please just build improve your products so they are more competitive. We already know you are environmentally responsible.
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rev2damoon
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More glorious "green speak" from Honda. Yippie!
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330R
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superchg2 wrote:
Honda, please just build improve your products so they are more competitive. We already know you are environmentally responsible. |
That's it exactly. My Hondas are already fuel efficient and clean running. Those things do mean something to me or else I wouldn't have ever bothered with Hondas. Somewhere along the way I could just as easily have bought a car with a large displacement V8, added a supercharger, nitrous, removed the catalysts, done large burnouts in front of P54's house, then vented all my R134 into the atmosphere just out of spite. But there's only so much I'll allow emissions and fuel economy to encroach on driving enjoyment.
I want clean air, clean water, a bright future. So how about cleaning up the developing countries? Clean up the semis. Clean up the ocean liners, the oil tankers. Honda's products are clean. They're also boring. Fuckin' enough already. If Honda feels so dirty, then just stop being.
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330R
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By the way, P54, I can buy that V8 today if I wanted to. I can buy it tomorrow if I want to. It will be available for many, many tomorrows. I can boost it, take it to the track and run the piss out of it. I can even do illegal things such as de-cat it. There's many places where no one will do anything about it. There's certainly nothing you'll do about it.
If all my future cars have already been built, where from now on til I stop emitting CO2 I'm driving used cars, so be it. I'll pick some good ones, with you and your ninny horseshit absolutely VACANT from the purchase decision. There's not a thing you can do about it. I will always choose a car that I want, not something forced on me by whackjobs with a guilty conscience.
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Gfn8r
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P54 wrote:
Honda Becomes World’s First Mobility Company to Disclose Estimates of All Greenhouse Gas Emissions
TOKYO, Japan, August 25, 2012 - Honda Motor Co. Ltd. became the world’s first*1 mobility company to disclose estimates of all of its greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions including emissions from Honda’s global business operations and customer use of Honda motorcycles, automobiles and power products.
By calculating and disclosing global GHG emissions as a responsible company engaged in the area of mobility, Honda will continue making proactive progress with its global initiatives to reduce GHG and further extend the Honda LCA (Life Cycle Assessment) approach.
http://world.honda.com/news/2012/c120825Greenhouse-Gas-Emissions/index.html
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(::Facepalm, facepalm, facepalm, facepalm, facepalm, face-fucking-PALM!!!::)
If Honda would have simply kept on doing the "engine-eering" that they've always done, they could have kept ahead of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE, and probably have been able to have an occasional boast about stuff like this!!
But in reality, Honda lost its focus, and went off on tangents such as stupid little toy robots, private jets that AFAIK still haven't been FAA-certified, and most importantly (and tragically), have become sops to the fucking "greenie-weenies" über alles, and we are left with a company who is now playing "catch-up" by having to try to "out bling" South Korean pieces of crap with LED headlights, and potentially compromising its "bread and butter" car by going to the "lowest-common denominator" form of crap suspension, likely because of the decision of some environmentalist ass-kissing bean-counter, one or two years into the run of the 8th-Gen Accord, before it even became apparent to anyone just how far Honda had fallen! (Regarding "Korean pieces of crap," I've seen much evidence, on this site and others, that says that the Koreans have upped their game, especially from a reliabilty standpoint. But I've also seen some stuff that states that the materials and interior bits still don't hold up as well over the long-term, which is troublesome; I don't want my dash to fade or split, or my seat to wear, until five years of payments are complete, and I can pretty much count on Honda to uphold that much of the bargain. Yes, I know Honda ain't perfect either, viz. 8th-Gen Civic sunvisors; Honda stepped up and extended the warranty on those, TSBed them, or whatever, while I've seen that Hyundai or Kia is not so responsive to similar issues. I offer my 2006 Accord's interior (sits outside during the day, garaged at night) as proof: a little driver's seat leather-grain wear, and a steering wheel which needed re-dyeing due to my "spirited" cleaning with too much rubbing; a little dishwashing soap diluted with water, without rubbing, is all that's needed for cleaning, following by Lexol protectant. Everything else is as nice as the day I got the car; the driver's seat even cleaned-up to "like new" looks when LeatherMedic re-dyed the wheel.)
Along the way, Honda has completely lost the "ricer, Fast And Furious" crowd by removing the ability to do any mods to its motors, and is potentially losing the rest of its enthusiast base in a race to the bottom!
I know, I know, I've been trying to stay positive over the Accord DWB debacle, and going along with everyone else on this vigil that is the interminable wait until the press (egotistical mag scribes, along with honest folk like Jeff, Shawn, Andrew, etc.) get ahold of actual cars and offer their opinions on whether Honda succeeded in keeping the classic Accord "feel" or if they completely fucked it up!! (And if they did, sorry folks begging for keyless starting and LED-this-and-that--careful what you wish for, because you might get it!) But after seeing more "green" shit like this coming out of this company, it seems as though they're circling the drain more rapidly, and I've gotta rant a little!!
A baseball analogy makes sense here: the Accord is the strongest hitter they've got, but Honda (by their own doing) is continuing (along with HyundKia) to move the damn center-field fence further back!! Once it gets out to 550' or 600', even the most steroid-stuffed hitter (with LED tatts on Popeye-esque biceps) ain't gonna knock it out any more! The Accord needs to knock the fucking ball out of the park, and through the closed moonroof of the Kia Optima SX parked in the last row of the ballpark's parking lot, if not onto the road or freeway adjacent to the ballpark itself!!! This release shows that Honda as an organization still has its head shoved so far up its collective backside that it'd blow its brains out if it emitted its own "greenhouse gas!"
Frustrating!!! Sorry folks, this kind of stuff makes me have delustional visions sitting at a traffic light in the largest pick-up/SUV/Hummer/other I can find, then have some form of hybrid/EV/other come up behind--just as I decide to run a Seafoam treatment on the engine!
(Truth be told, IMHO, there is no reason for an average "soccer mom," hubby and 2.5 kids to need anything more than an Ody-sized minivan for normal family-hauling tasks, and certainly, an SUV or HD pick-up is way overboard for a solo commuter. But I'm not going to try to stop anyone who wants one of these to show "status," or who may be "compensating" for shortfalls, to use the tired stereotype, from purchasing such a vehicle. Just don't bitch at me when you're sitting next to me and my Accord at the next pump over, watching the numbers roll over like a slot machine!! I think there are elements at play which wish to limit our automotive choices, and Honda was always in a position to roll with whatever elements influenced the industry, and to give the absolute best solution to any eventuality, while still satisfying "Joe-or-Jane Texting-Jabbering-Sixpack" and "ricer" alike. But now that they're giving in to these "green" influences, they're going for max "cred" on this issue while compromising on their core values as a whole. Which gives us an adrift Acura ("beak" and all), answers to questions nobody asked (CrossTurd), and the redefinition of THE car that made Honda, Honda, to the lowest-common-denominator instead of THE BEST in its class and price-point! PERIOD! (The Civic started to lose the plot when it, like the Accord, lost DWB! If Acura is now going to be known for handling, to the detriment of the "volume" Honda product, that is yet another Honda core loss, as EVERYBODY used to be able to benefit from Honda's competencies, not just those who could afford $600+/month car/lease payments.))
Rant over! (As I always say, I could be wrong on this stuff! No need to flame. If I've accidentally gone into "Political Lounge" territory on this post, mods, I apologize!)
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owequitit
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Gfn8r wrote:
P54 wrote:
Honda Becomes World’s First Mobility Company to Disclose Estimates of All Greenhouse Gas Emissions
TOKYO, Japan, August 25, 2012 - Honda Motor Co. Ltd. became the world’s first*1 mobility company to disclose estimates of all of its greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions including emissions from Honda’s global business operations and customer use of Honda motorcycles, automobiles and power products.
By calculating and disclosing global GHG emissions as a responsible company engaged in the area of mobility, Honda will continue making proactive progress with its global initiatives to reduce GHG and further extend the Honda LCA (Life Cycle Assessment) approach.
http://world.honda.com/news/2012/c120825Greenhouse-Gas-Emissions/index.html
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(::Facepalm, facepalm, facepalm, facepalm, facepalm, face-fucking-PALM!!!::)
If Honda would have simply kept on doing the "engine-eering" that they've always done, they could have kept ahead of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE, and probably have been able to have an occasional boast about stuff like this!!
But in reality, Honda lost its focus, and went off on tangents such as stupid little toy robots, private jets that AFAIK still haven't been FAA-certified, and most importantly (and tragically), have become sops to the fucking "greenie-weenies" über alles, and we are left with a company who is now playing "catch-up" by having to try to "out bling" South Korean pieces of crap with LED headlights, and potentially compromising its "bread and butter" car by going to the "lowest-common denominator" form of crap suspension, likely because of the decision of some environmentalist ass-kissing bean-counter, one or two years into the run of the 8th-Gen Accord, before it even became apparent to anyone just how far Honda had fallen! (Regarding "Korean pieces of crap," I've seen much evidence, on this site and others, that says that the Koreans have upped their game, especially from a reliabilty standpoint. But I've also seen some stuff that states that the materials and interior bits still don't hold up as well over the long-term, which is troublesome; I don't want my dash to fade or split, or my seat to wear, until five years of payments are complete, and I can pretty much count on Honda to uphold that much of the bargain. Yes, I know Honda ain't perfect either, viz. 8th-Gen Civic sunvisors; Honda stepped up and extended the warranty on those, TSBed them, or whatever, while I've seen that Hyundai or Kia is not so responsive to similar issues. I offer my 2006 Accord's interior (sits outside during the day, garaged at night) as proof: a little driver's seat leather-grain wear, and a steering wheel which needed re-dyeing due to my "spirited" cleaning with too much rubbing; a little dishwashing soap diluted with water, without rubbing, is all that's needed for cleaning, following by Lexol protectant. Everything else is as nice as the day I got the car; the driver's seat even cleaned-up to "like new" looks when LeatherMedic re-dyed the wheel.)
Along the way, Honda has completely lost the "ricer, Fast And Furious" crowd by removing the ability to do any mods to its motors, and is potentially losing the rest of its enthusiast base in a race to the bottom!
I know, I know, I've been trying to stay positive over the Accord DWB debacle, and going along with everyone else on this vigil that is the interminable wait until the press (egotistical mag scribes, along with honest folk like Jeff, Shawn, Andrew, etc.) get ahold of actual cars and offer their opinions on whether Honda succeeded in keeping the classic Accord "feel" or if they completely fucked it up!! (And if they did, sorry folks begging for keyless starting and LED-this-and-that--careful what you wish for, because you might get it!) But after seeing more "green" shit like this coming out of this company, it seems as though they're circling the drain more rapidly, and I've gotta rant a little!!
A baseball analogy makes sense here: the Accord is the strongest hitter they've got, but Honda (by their own doing) is continuing (along with HyundKia) to move the damn center-field fence further back!! Once it gets out to 550' or 600', even the most steroid-stuffed hitter (with LED tatts on Popeye-esque biceps) ain't gonna knock it out any more! The Accord needs to knock the fucking ball out of the park, and through the closed moonroof of the Kia Optima SX parked in the last row of the ballpark's parking lot, if not onto the road or freeway adjacent to the ballpark itself!!! This release shows that Honda as an organization still has its head shoved so far up its collective backside that it'd blow its brains out if it emitted its own "greenhouse gas!"
Frustrating!!! Sorry folks, this kind of stuff makes me have delustional visions sitting at a traffic light in the largest pick-up/SUV/Hummer/other I can find, then have some form of hybrid/EV/other come up behind--just as I decide to run a Seafoam treatment on the engine!
(Truth be told, IMHO, there is no reason for an average "soccer mom," hubby and 2.5 kids to need anything more than an Ody-sized minivan for normal family-hauling tasks, and certainly, an SUV or HD pick-up is way overboard for a solo commuter. But I'm not going to try to stop anyone who wants one of these to show "status," or who may be "compensating" for shortfalls, to use the tired stereotype, from purchasing such a vehicle. Just don't bitch at me when you're sitting next to me and my Accord at the next pump over, watching the numbers roll over like a slot machine!! I think there are elements at play which wish to limit our automotive choices, and Honda was always in a position to roll with whatever elements influenced the industry, and to give the absolute best solution to any eventuality, while still satisfying "Joe-or-Jane Texting-Jabbering-Sixpack" and "ricer" alike. But now that they're giving in to these "green" influences, they're going for max "cred" on this issue while compromising on their core values as a whole. Which gives us an adrift Acura ("beak" and all), answers to questions nobody asked (CrossTurd), and the redefinition of THE car that made Honda, Honda, to the lowest-common-denominator instead of THE BEST in its class and price-point! PERIOD! (The Civic started to lose the plot when it, like the Accord, lost DWB! If Acura is now going to be known for handling, to the detriment of the "volume" Honda product, that is yet another Honda core loss, as EVERYBODY used to be able to benefit from Honda's competencies, not just those who could afford $600+/month car/lease payments.))
Rant over! (As I always say, I could be wrong on this stuff! No need to flame. If I've accidentally gone into "Political Lounge" territory on this post, mods, I apologize!)
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In Honda's defense, the Hondajet is getting very close to being certified (withing the next couple of months), and that problem is not their own. The FAA is very stringent with what they expect, and Honda has done a great job of keeping to the schedule that they set. It also opens the possibility for new technology.
However, as a gigantic aviation fan, I would like to make a few observations about the Hondajet program in general:
1) Honda isn't breaking new ground here in terms of being a pioneer. First, it should be noted that Mitsubishi built a very capable business jet back in the late 70's/early 80's that didn't sell very well until they sold the program to Beechcraft, who made a few minor mods to the systems (which allowed a full lavatory in the aft of the jet) and it then went on to become the 2nd best selling light business jet. So Honda is not a pioneer in terms of building a business jet as a Japanese company.
Also, while Honda's engine mount technology IS new, the use of carbon fiber for the fuselage is not. Many companies have used it for many years (it had its origin in the stealth programs and in some of our current high-performance fighter jets such as the F-16), so Honda is not a pioneer in that regard either. Their laminar flow technology is really good, their engine technology IS a step forward, but competitors are already developing products that will match/exceed the Hondajet overall. This is one area where Honda will have to continue to innovate, or face obsolesence, and I am not 100% sure they will.
Now, consider where Mitsubishi's car program is at the moment, and then consider the fact that the success of a jet has little to do with the relevance of their automotive product, except in trickle down technology. However, most of that won't trickle down, because they are fundamentally different technologies with fundamentally different purposes. There is a much stronger trickle down effect from automotive racing than aviation.
2) Consider the fact that while Honda fans are chest thumping about how amazing Honda is for releasing a light jet, Mitsubishi is readying a 100 seat regional airliner that just entered contract for 100 units with SkyWest Airlines Inc, who is the largest regional company on the face of the planet...
While I admire the Hondajet greatly, and will certainly find a way to fly one someday, Honda is not the preeminent Japanese aerospace company.
I agree that it also does not excuse their increasing irrelevance in the automotive world (keep in mind that Accord and Civic PAID for ASIMO, the Hondajet and the stupid green technologies) and as such the loss of them as profit centers will be wholly catastrophic for Honda (because they still pay the bills).
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owequitit
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330R wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Honda, please just build improve your products so they are more competitive. We already know you are environmentally responsible. |
That's it exactly. My Hondas are already fuel efficient and clean running. Those things do mean something to me or else I wouldn't have ever bothered with Hondas. Somewhere along the way I could just as easily have bought a car with a large displacement V8, added a supercharger, nitrous, removed the catalysts, done large burnouts in front of P54's house, then vented all my R134 into the atmosphere just out of spite. But there's only so much I'll allow emissions and fuel economy to encroach on driving enjoyment.
I want clean air, clean water, a bright future. So how about cleaning up the developing countries? Clean up the semis. Clean up the ocean liners, the oil tankers. Honda's products are clean. They're also boring. Fuckin' enough already. If Honda feels so dirty, then just stop being.
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Well said. It occurs to me that I have many more years of parts availability for my '09 Si which renders having to buy some new car irrelevant for many decades. Or, there will always be other options. Hell, my Accord is 22 this year and I can still find parts by the thousands for it...
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superchg2
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330R wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Honda, please just build improve your products so they are more competitive. We already know you are environmentally responsible. |
That's it exactly. My Hondas are already fuel efficient and clean running. Those things do mean something to me or else I wouldn't have ever bothered with Hondas. Somewhere along the way I could just as easily have bought a car with a large displacement V8, added a supercharger, nitrous, removed the catalysts, done large burnouts in front of P54's house, then vented all my R134 into the atmosphere just out of spite. But there's only so much I'll allow emissions and fuel economy to encroach on driving enjoyment.
I want clean air, clean water, a bright future. So how about cleaning up the developing countries? Clean up the semis. Clean up the ocean liners, the oil tankers...
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...and while you're at it , please clean up Randy Travis!
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330R
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superchg2 wrote:
...and while you're at it , please clean up Randy Travis!
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That's freakin hilarious!
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330R
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owequitit wrote:
It occurs to me that I have many more years of parts availability for my '09 Si which renders having to buy some new car irrelevant for many decades. Or, there will always be other options. Hell, my Accord is 22 this year and I can still find parts by the thousands for it...
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That's right. Parts are available now and will be in the future, for decades to come. Japanese, German, American. Even South Korean if you want 'em. And my car enthusiasm makes it no problem at all to spend a little extra time and money in the future, if necessary, to locate and purchase those parts. Hell, I keep thinking about starting a Porsche 964 project someday. What do you think about keeping an old aircooled Porsche on the road, P54? Sounds like an environmentalist's dream, huh?
It's really too bad Honda couldn't build us a new S2000 or another sports car, or a serious Type-R, done the proper Honda way, which would be far cleaner running than a 20 year-old Porsche. At the same time though I'm afraid they'd just ruin it, removing any mechanical purity, proper feel, proper response, and properly bollocks it up by filling the engine with daisies and dandelions.
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Gfn8r
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owequitit wrote:
Gfn8r wrote:
P54 wrote:
Honda Becomes World’s First Mobility Company to Disclose Estimates of All Greenhouse Gas Emissions
TOKYO, Japan, August 25, 2012 - Honda Motor Co. Ltd. became the world’s first*1 mobility company to disclose estimates of all of its greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions including emissions from Honda’s global business operations and customer use of Honda motorcycles, automobiles and power products.
By calculating and disclosing global GHG emissions as a responsible company engaged in the area of mobility, Honda will continue making proactive progress with its global initiatives to reduce GHG and further extend the Honda LCA (Life Cycle Assessment) approach.
http://world.honda.com/news/2012/c120825Greenhouse-Gas-Emissions/index.html
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(::Facepalm, facepalm, facepalm, facepalm, facepalm, face-fucking-PALM!!!::)
If Honda would have simply kept on doing the "engine-eering" that they've always done, they could have kept ahead of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE, and probably have been able to have an occasional boast about stuff like this!!
But in reality, Honda lost its focus, and went off on tangents such as stupid little toy robots, private jets that AFAIK still haven't been FAA-certified, and most importantly (and tragically), have become sops to the fucking "greenie-weenies" über alles, and we are left with a company who is now playing "catch-up" by having to try to "out bling" South Korean pieces of crap with LED headlights, and potentially compromising its "bread and butter" car by going to the "lowest-common denominator" form of crap suspension, likely because of the decision of some environmentalist ass-kissing bean-counter, one or two years into the run of the 8th-Gen Accord, before it even became apparent to anyone just how far Honda had fallen! (Regarding "Korean pieces of crap," I've seen much evidence, on this site and others, that says that the Koreans have upped their game, especially from a reliabilty standpoint. But I've also seen some stuff that states that the materials and interior bits still don't hold up as well over the long-term, which is troublesome; I don't want my dash to fade or split, or my seat to wear, until five years of payments are complete, and I can pretty much count on Honda to uphold that much of the bargain. Yes, I know Honda ain't perfect either, viz. 8th-Gen Civic sunvisors; Honda stepped up and extended the warranty on those, TSBed them, or whatever, while I've seen that Hyundai or Kia is not so responsive to similar issues. I offer my 2006 Accord's interior (sits outside during the day, garaged at night) as proof: a little driver's seat leather-grain wear, and a steering wheel which needed re-dyeing due to my "spirited" cleaning with too much rubbing; a little dishwashing soap diluted with water, without rubbing, is all that's needed for cleaning, following by Lexol protectant. Everything else is as nice as the day I got the car; the driver's seat even cleaned-up to "like new" looks when LeatherMedic re-dyed the wheel.)
Along the way, Honda has completely lost the "ricer, Fast And Furious" crowd by removing the ability to do any mods to its motors, and is potentially losing the rest of its enthusiast base in a race to the bottom!
I know, I know, I've been trying to stay positive over the Accord DWB debacle, and going along with everyone else on this vigil that is the interminable wait until the press (egotistical mag scribes, along with honest folk like Jeff, Shawn, Andrew, etc.) get ahold of actual cars and offer their opinions on whether Honda succeeded in keeping the classic Accord "feel" or if they completely fucked it up!! (And if they did, sorry folks begging for keyless starting and LED-this-and-that--careful what you wish for, because you might get it!) But after seeing more "green" shit like this coming out of this company, it seems as though they're circling the drain more rapidly, and I've gotta rant a little!!
A baseball analogy makes sense here: the Accord is the strongest hitter they've got, but Honda (by their own doing) is continuing (along with HyundKia) to move the damn center-field fence further back!! Once it gets out to 550' or 600', even the most steroid-stuffed hitter (with LED tatts on Popeye-esque biceps) ain't gonna knock it out any more! The Accord needs to knock the fucking ball out of the park, and through the closed moonroof of the Kia Optima SX parked in the last row of the ballpark's parking lot, if not onto the road or freeway adjacent to the ballpark itself!!! This release shows that Honda as an organization still has its head shoved so far up its collective backside that it'd blow its brains out if it emitted its own "greenhouse gas!"
Frustrating!!! Sorry folks, this kind of stuff makes me have delustional visions sitting at a traffic light in the largest pick-up/SUV/Hummer/other I can find, then have some form of hybrid/EV/other come up behind--just as I decide to run a Seafoam treatment on the engine!
(Truth be told, IMHO, there is no reason for an average "soccer mom," hubby and 2.5 kids to need anything more than an Ody-sized minivan for normal family-hauling tasks, and certainly, an SUV or HD pick-up is way overboard for a solo commuter. But I'm not going to try to stop anyone who wants one of these to show "status," or who may be "compensating" for shortfalls, to use the tired stereotype, from purchasing such a vehicle. Just don't bitch at me when you're sitting next to me and my Accord at the next pump over, watching the numbers roll over like a slot machine!! I think there are elements at play which wish to limit our automotive choices, and Honda was always in a position to roll with whatever elements influenced the industry, and to give the absolute best solution to any eventuality, while still satisfying "Joe-or-Jane Texting-Jabbering-Sixpack" and "ricer" alike. But now that they're giving in to these "green" influences, they're going for max "cred" on this issue while compromising on their core values as a whole. Which gives us an adrift Acura ("beak" and all), answers to questions nobody asked (CrossTurd), and the redefinition of THE car that made Honda, Honda, to the lowest-common-denominator instead of THE BEST in its class and price-point! PERIOD! (The Civic started to lose the plot when it, like the Accord, lost DWB! If Acura is now going to be known for handling, to the detriment of the "volume" Honda product, that is yet another Honda core loss, as EVERYBODY used to be able to benefit from Honda's competencies, not just those who could afford $600+/month car/lease payments.))
Rant over! (As I always say, I could be wrong on this stuff! No need to flame. If I've accidentally gone into "Political Lounge" territory on this post, mods, I apologize!)
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In Honda's defense, the Hondajet is getting very close to being certified (withing the next couple of months), and that problem is not their own. The FAA is very stringent with what they expect, and Honda has done a great job of keeping to the schedule that they set. It also opens the possibility for new technology.
However, as a gigantic aviation fan, I would like to make a few observations about the Hondajet program in general:
1) Honda isn't breaking new ground here in terms of being a pioneer. First, it should be noted that Mitsubishi built a very capable business jet back in the late 70's/early 80's that didn't sell very well until they sold the program to Beechcraft, who made a few minor mods to the systems (which allowed a full lavatory in the aft of the jet) and it then went on to become the 2nd best selling light business jet. So Honda is not a pioneer in terms of building a business jet as a Japanese company.
Also, while Honda's engine mount technology IS new, the use of carbon fiber for the fuselage is not. Many companies have used it for many years (it had its origin in the stealth programs and in some of our current high-performance fighter jets such as the F-16), so Honda is not a pioneer in that regard either. Their laminar flow technology is really good, their engine technology IS a step forward, but competitors are already developing products that will match/exceed the Hondajet overall. This is one area where Honda will have to continue to innovate, or face obsolesence, and I am not 100% sure they will.
Now, consider where Mitsubishi's car program is at the moment, and then consider the fact that the success of a jet has little to do with the relevance of their automotive product, except in trickle down technology. However, most of that won't trickle down, because they are fundamentally different technologies with fundamentally different purposes. There is a much stronger trickle down effect from automotive racing than aviation.
2) Consider the fact that while Honda fans are chest thumping about how amazing Honda is for releasing a light jet, Mitsubishi is readying a 100 seat regional airliner that just entered contract for 100 units with SkyWest Airlines Inc, who is the largest regional company on the face of the planet...
While I admire the Hondajet greatly, and will certainly find a way to fly one someday, Honda is not the preeminent Japanese aerospace company.
I agree that it also does not excuse their increasing irrelevance in the automotive world (keep in mind that Accord and Civic PAID for ASIMO, the Hondajet and the stupid green technologies) and as such the loss of them as profit centers will be wholly catastrophic for Honda (because they still pay the bills).
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Great points regarding the HondaJet, and the certification process--I had been under the impression that that was something else contributing to the delays other than bureaucratic stuff--I work in local government, so I KNOW all about the stereotypical government behaviors! ;-) (My colleagues go to the entire spectrum--some of us give 110% and try to change that, but of course, there are those who sit on their asses for eight hours a day and simply take up space!)
You mentioned the racing trickle-down. The curtailing of the racing activity hasn't helped! (The Honda IndyCar involvement is a step in the right direction, correct me if I'm wrong.) And good example about Mitsubishi: sadly, from an automotive standpoint, they lost the plot several years ago (and essentially ceded the rally "market" to Subaru, at least here in N/A, where that market is essentially a "tuner," "ricer" market anyhow).
I think you got my point that the trumped-up "green" thing has certainly been a major distraction (of many) which has hampered Honda in the past decade or so.
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MalcolmR
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P54 wrote:
MalcolmR wrote:
.
Why?
Malcolm
:)
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Why I posted or why Honda is world's first or why Honda bother?
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.
The latter, P54, why bother?
There is not one shred of evidence that human production of CO2 has any effect on global climate or on atmospheric CO2 levels.
I've admired Honda because it makes decisions based on facts.
Honda is abandoning science here. It's pandering to a marketing whim.
Highly disappointing.
It's likely/possibly what led Honda off the rails in its Earth Dreams Formula 1 escapade.
The basis of engineering is observable facts. That was a core and unique strength of Honda's.
Straying from that will hurt.
Malcolm
:)
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Gfn8r
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MalcolmR wrote:
P54 wrote:
MalcolmR wrote:
.
Why?
Malcolm
:)
|
Why I posted or why Honda is world's first or why Honda bother?
|
.
The latter, P54, why bother?
There is not one shred of evidence that human production of CO2 has any effect on global climate or on atmospheric CO2 levels.
I've admired Honda because it makes decisions based on facts.
Honda is abandoning science here. It's pandering to a marketing whim.
Highly disappointing.
It's likely/possibly what led Honda off the rails in its Earth Dreams Formula 1 escapade.
The basis of engineering is observable facts. That was a core and unique strength of Honda's.
Straying from that will hurt.
Malcolm
:)
|
+10,000! (Sometimes I wish I was more "concise" and less "precise!")
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owequitit
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MalcolmR wrote:
P54 wrote:
MalcolmR wrote:
.
Why?
Malcolm
:)
|
Why I posted or why Honda is world's first or why Honda bother?
|
.
The latter, P54, why bother?
There is not one shred of evidence that human production of CO2 has any effect on global climate or on atmospheric CO2 levels.
I've admired Honda because it makes decisions based on facts.
Honda is abandoning science here. It's pandering to a marketing whim.
Highly disappointing.
It's likely/possibly what led Honda off the rails in its Earth Dreams Formula 1 escapade.
The basis of engineering is observable facts. That was a core and unique strength of Honda's.
Straying from that will hurt.
Malcolm
:)
|
I did see a study recently by an apparently well known opponent to AGW, where he studied the curve of temperature increase vs various other factors. It was interesting that he found the correlation between the CO2 concentration and the change in temp curves to mirror each other nearly identically, where, according to the article I read, none of the other curves correlated.
It was just a simplistic description of the larger problem, and a fairly focused study, so I didn't accept it as conclusive (especially without reviewing the rest of the study etc), but I did find it interesting.
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CR-V9
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This is from Wilipidia,
The Mitsubishi Regional Jet (MRJ) is a passenger jet aircraft seating 70–90 passengers manufactured by Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation, a partnership between majority owner Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Toyota Motor Corporation[1] with design assistance from Toyota affiliate Fuji Heavy Industries, already a manufacturer of aircraft. I believe they are the one who built the Zeros during the war.
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owequitit
|
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CR-V9 wrote:
This is from Wilipidia,
The Mitsubishi Regional Jet (MRJ) is a passenger jet aircraft seating 70–90 passengers manufactured by Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation, a partnership between majority owner Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Toyota Motor Corporation[1] with design assistance from Toyota affiliate Fuji Heavy Industries, already a manufacturer of aircraft. I believe they are the one who built the Zeros during the war.
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Yes, and it is also the same company that produced the MU-2 turboprop and the Diamond I/II that eventually was sold to Raytheon and marketed as the Beechjet 400/400A/ Hawker 400.
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saitamahonda
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P54, thanks for the post.
330R, MalcolmR, show some respect and integrity. Just because you are selfish racing enthusiast doesn't mean youre in the right. In fact, you make yourselves look like immature punks. Grow up, like Honda has.
You guys aren't Honda fans, if Soichiro-San was in your face he'd be slapping you upside the head yelling expletives and how foolish and disingenuous you sound. The future is something humanity needs to set examples for, theres no point in holding onto the 80's and 90's.
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RolledaNsx
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saitamahonda,
Have you ever meet him?
Mr Honda was a engineer first and believed in "RACING" to teach and to prove his engineering was the best.
So he would be slapping your face or the way I remember it " In your face screaming at you".
Fix the problem with engineering.... he was never green!!!
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HondaFan1990
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saitamahonda wrote:
P54, thanks for the post.
330R, MalcolmR, show some respect and integrity. Just because you are selfish racing enthusiast doesn't mean youre in the right. In fact, you make yourselves look like immature punks. Grow up, like Honda has.
You guys aren't Honda fans, if Soichiro-San was in your face he'd be slapping you upside the head yelling expletives and how foolish and disingenuous you sound. The future is something humanity needs to set examples for, theres no point in holding onto the 80's and 90's.
|
^This. Honda is looking towards the future. "Green" is the way regardless of it people like it or not. If you didn't like the subject matter, don't comment on it. Simple as that. Honda, if you can't tell, could probably give a rats ass about "sporty enthusiast" models and if you can find tuning parts for your Civic SI or old CRX or whatever right about now. They are trying to get themselves on the right path and then that stuff will come. I want core products like the Civic Accord and CRV to be class best and bring in the money and then bring me something sporty because there's a lot more people gonna buy those than an S2000 replacement catered to a few. And until Honda makes something worthy of you liking, go to another brand. If you can buy a V8, go and do so. You'll be happier that you did so....
It's almost 2013. Honda has changed since 1983, since 1993 and since 2003. Don't like the change? Don't have to. Go elsewhere...
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330R
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saitamahonda wrote:
P54, thanks for the post.
330R, MalcolmR, show some respect and integrity. Just because you are selfish racing enthusiast doesn't mean youre in the right. In fact, you make yourselves look like immature punks. Grow up, like Honda has.
You guys aren't Honda fans, if Soichiro-San was in your face he'd be slapping you upside the head yelling expletives and how foolish and disingenuous you sound. The future is something humanity needs to set examples for, theres no point in holding onto the 80's and 90's.
|
saitamahonda, fuck you.
Next.
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330R
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HondaFan1990 wrote:
Honda is looking towards the future. "Green" is the way regardless of it people like it or not. If you didn't like the subject matter, don't comment on it. Simple as that. Honda, if you can't tell, could probably give a rats ass about "sporty enthusiast" models and if you can find tuning parts for your Civic SI or old CRX or whatever right about now. They are trying to get themselves on the right path and then that stuff will come. I want core products like the Civic Accord and CRV to be class best and bring in the money and then bring me something sporty because there's a lot more people gonna buy those than an S2000 replacement catered to a few. And until Honda makes something worthy of you liking, go to another brand. If you can buy a V8, go and do so. You'll be happier that you did so....
It's almost 2013. Honda has changed since 1983, since 1993 and since 2003. Don't like the change? Don't have to. Go elsewhere...
|
There you go again with the "don't like it, don't comment", and "don't like it, go somewhere else". You apparently don't understand what it means to be a fan of something, be it a sports team, a car company, a band, whatever. You don't ditch something you're a fan of on a whim, or else you were never a fan, but maybe a "fair weather fan". Some things people become deep fans of, especially over time. That grows even deeper due to emotional connections and vested time, money, life experiences that happened during that time. It goes deeper still when you connect to something on a philosophical level.
Really, what is the point of continuing to explain. If it has to be explained to you, you're not going to understand. What you say you want is successful mainstream products so Honda can make money, then the fun things can come. Well fella, Honda has been making money on successful cars for years and years. I don't think anyone on this forum would argue against that being Honda's primary purpose. But at what cost? Don't forget where you come from. Honda forgot where they came from. They let greed come above getting the product right. They've been erasing what separates them from the competition. Eventually it's going to come down to what price can I get what trim that offers LEDs. They've put suspect science and their notorious bad marketing in front of making their cars fun to drive and desirable.
You can forever toss out the notion that successful and class leading core product cannot coexist with "something sporty", because exactly that has happened before. The fact that it isn't happening now and instead we are bombarded daily with blathering about green this and eco that, from what already was a green enough and economically-minded enough company, is frustrating beyond belief. And I'm going to comment on it if I feel like it, so prepare yourself for that. I AM a fan of what this company used to do, and can do when it gets its head out of its ass. You telling me to go if I don't like it is going to get you nowhere.
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