Where I am from taxis are usually Mercedes, Volvo or from the VW group (but usually not Audi). Long story short, today I am driving a manual S4, used to have a manual TTS but have been curious if the next car is an Audi and not a Honda should I go for a DSG or Manual. (I hope Honda will deliver during the next 2years so next choice is a Honda again).
Anyway, I've heard from TOV and other magazines about questionable durability of the DSG box (especially 7-speed).
So in the Taxi today (VW with DSG) I asked about his experience with durability. He said, well this car has rolled approx 300.000km (187k miles) the DSG have malfunctioned 3 times. The first at 40.000km, on warranty and the second at 140km (extended warranty) and the last time just recently.
Well well well, I was like, so it's true, maybe if (it happens to be an Audi) I should still be careful of the DSG.
Guess what the taxi driver said: I see no worries, as you are under 3years warranty and a failure will be at no cost, and after 4-5years you will most likely get a new one anyway.
Wow! Sh*t!, it's the use-once-throw-away society at it's best!
The question is though, how much "Cred" is Honda winning for going for more durable "but not as cool gearboxes"? (Cool, I think we can easily say that apparently all good drivers car from the low end to Lambo&Porsche and F1 cars are using double clutch)
anyway, maybe not interesting but I thought of sharing the story. So if Honda tries to position the new Accord in Europe as "more durable but less driving performance" I think they are up for a challenge.
ps. I have no info about the new CVT, maybe it just will rock!
Can you really generalize like that based on one taxi with DSG? It may be true that DSGs might be less reliable. However, the reported repair record of one DSG equipped taxi (one vivid case) isn't adequate to draw such conclusions.
MarkR wrote: Where I am from taxis are usually Mercedes, Volvo or from the VW group (but usually not Audi). Long story short, today I am driving a manual S4, used to have a manual TTS but have been curious if the next car is an Audi and not a Honda should I go for a DSG or Manual. (I hope Honda will deliver during the next 2years so next choice is a Honda again).
Anyway, I've heard from TOV and other magazines about questionable durability of the DSG box (especially 7-speed).
So in the Taxi today (VW with DSG) I asked about his experience with durability. He said, well this car has rolled approx 300.000km (187k miles) the DSG have malfunctioned 3 times. The first at 40.000km, on warranty and the second at 140km (extended warranty) and the last time just recently.
Well well well, I was like, so it's true, maybe if (it happens to be an Audi) I should still be careful of the DSG.
Guess what the taxi driver said: I see no worries, as you are under 3years warranty and a failure will be at no cost, and after 4-5years you will most likely get a new one anyway.
Wow! Sh*t!, it's the use-once-throw-away society at it's best!
The question is though, how much "Cred" is Honda winning for going for more durable "but not as cool gearboxes"? (Cool, I think we can easily say that apparently all good drivers car from the low end to Lambo&Porsche and F1 cars are using double clutch)
anyway, maybe not interesting but I thought of sharing the story. So if Honda tries to position the new Accord in Europe as "more durable but less driving performance" I think they are up for a challenge.
ps. I have no info about the new CVT, maybe it just will rock!
I just bought an E46 M3 with a 6spd manual. From all the research I did, the warnings were to stay away from the SMG in the Bimmer. Plus the manual is a lot more fun even if it's not as fast.
Exactly - a sample space of one represents a lack of statistical understanding & nothing else significant!
The problem with vages seems to be mostly sensors & solenoids regularly going wrong and being expensive to replace. A bit like coil packs, really. It's very irksome when it's dismissed as a 'characteristic' by the mfr. Like all of these things, there are good ones and (too many) bad ones and there is an element of luck.
The fluid is also hideously expensive to change.
I'd be very wary of one, personally. I'd be less wary if the mfr. was Japanese, though. But I believe Honda's is bought-in from Getrag or ZF - so I'd be very scared.
MarkR wrote: Wow! Sh*t!, it's the use-once-throw-away society at it's best!
The question is though, how much "Cred" is Honda winning for going for more durable "but not as cool gearboxes"? (Cool, I think we can easily say that apparently all good drivers car from the low end to Lambo&Porsche and F1 cars are using double clutch)
anyway, maybe not interesting but I thought of sharing the story. So if Honda tries to position the new Accord in Europe as "more durable but less driving performance" I think they are up for a challenge.
ps. I have no info about the new CVT, maybe it just will rock!
Just a guess, with such high standard to making Honda's new Eearth Dream CVTs (the clean room assembly line etc) probably it will not be very servicable.
I really hope I am wrong, since I buy my Hondas for reliability.
Besides the super quick shifting of DSG, what other advantages is there to it?
MarkR wrote: Wow! Sh*t!, it's the use-once-throw-away society at it's best!
The question is though, how much "Cred" is Honda winning for going for more durable "but not as cool gearboxes"? (Cool, I think we can easily say that apparently all good drivers car from the low end to Lambo&Porsche and F1 cars are using double clutch)
anyway, maybe not interesting but I thought of sharing the story. So if Honda tries to position the new Accord in Europe as "more durable but less driving performance" I think they are up for a challenge.
ps. I have no info about the new CVT, maybe it just will rock!
Just a guess, with such high standard to making Honda's new Eearth Dream CVTs (the clean room assembly line etc) probably it will not be very servicable.
I really hope I am wrong, since I buy my Hondas for reliability.
Besides the super quick shifting of DSG, what other advantages is there to it?
Caveat: Super quick "upshifts", downshifts are rev-matched and significantly slower. They also come with disadvantages: For example, the 8 speed ZF automatic trans is probably one of the smoothest on the market right now; contrast to that, most dual clutch trannies are TERRIBLE from idle to 10 km/h as they have very hesitant and jerky action- it's like what you'd expect from a novice stick driver. Ford, Chevy, and Hyundai have been heavily dinged for this behaviour; the Dodge Dart is probably the most automatic-like DSG I've seen yet, but even then I hate it. I'd actually prefer a slushbox, especially as driveline losses have been significantly reduced and are somewhat comparable to mainshaft/countershaft style manual and DSG gearboxes.
On top of that, we all know that the maintenance costs are pretty high for these units. They've come down with subsequent generations, but the gearbox oil is pretty exotic (and you really shouldn't be using anything "aftermarket").
There are also durability concerns, particularly as automakers attempt to encheapen the transmissions by using dry clutch units.
I'm not sure what the problem is with Honda not using DSGs (btw, the NSX has a 7spd DSG coming). Between the plug in hybrid Accord (which has NO real transmission, just one gear reduction), the CVT, automatic and manual, they've got everything covered out there.
I don't think F1 cars are using DSG units anymore... at least nothing like what we're seeing in road cars. Not to mention those units look 100% different...
CarPhreakD wrote: Caveat: Super quick "upshifts", downshifts are rev-matched and significantly slower. They also come with disadvantages:
..contrast to that, most dual clutch trannies are TERRIBLE from idle to 10 km/h as they have very hesitant and jerky action- it's like what you'd expect from a novice stick driver. Ford, Chevy, and Hyundai have been heavily dinged for this behaviour; the Dodge Dart is probably the most automatic-like DSG I've seen yet, but even then I hate it. I'd actually prefer a slushbox,...
...we all know that the maintenance costs are pretty high for these units. They've come down with subsequent generations, but the gearbox oil is pretty exotic...
There are also durability concerns, particularly as automakers attempt to encheapen the transmissions by using dry clutch units.
F1 never used a DSG trans(Porsche invented it in the 80's for endurance racing 956-962).
F1 uses single clutch (lower weight and better for standing starts)
MarkR wrote: Wow! Sh*t!, it's the use-once-throw-away society at it's best!
The question is though, how much "Cred" is Honda winning for going for more durable "but not as cool gearboxes"? (Cool, I think we can easily say that apparently all good drivers car from the low end to Lambo&Porsche and F1 cars are using double clutch)
anyway, maybe not interesting but I thought of sharing the story. So if Honda tries to position the new Accord in Europe as "more durable but less driving performance" I think they are up for a challenge.
ps. I have no info about the new CVT, maybe it just will rock!
Just a guess, with such high standard to making Honda's new Eearth Dream CVTs (the clean room assembly line etc) probably it will not be very servicable.
I really hope I am wrong, since I buy my Hondas for reliability.
Besides the super quick shifting of DSG, what other advantages is there to it?
Caveat: Super quick "upshifts", downshifts are rev-matched and significantly slower. They also come with disadvantages: For example, the 8 speed ZF automatic trans is probably one of the smoothest on the market right now; contrast to that, most dual clutch trannies are TERRIBLE from idle to 10 km/h as they have very hesitant and jerky action- it's like what you'd expect from a novice stick driver. Ford, Chevy, and Hyundai have been heavily dinged for this behaviour; the Dodge Dart is probably the most automatic-like DSG I've seen yet, but even then I hate it. I'd actually prefer a slushbox, especially as driveline losses have been significantly reduced and are somewhat comparable to mainshaft/countershaft style manual and DSG gearboxes.
On top of that, we all know that the maintenance costs are pretty high for these units. They've come down with subsequent generations, but the gearbox oil is pretty exotic (and you really shouldn't be using anything "aftermarket").
There are also durability concerns, particularly as automakers attempt to encheapen the transmissions by using dry clutch units.
I'm not sure what the problem is with Honda not using DSGs (btw, the NSX has a 7spd DSG coming). Between the plug in hybrid Accord (which has NO real transmission, just one gear reduction), the CVT, automatic and manual, they've got everything covered out there.
I don't think F1 cars are using DSG units anymore... at least nothing like what we're seeing in road cars. Not to mention those units look 100% different...
Honda eliminates the one issue you bring up by virtue of the electric motors found in the upcoming RLX and NSX. Low speed behavior (launch, creeping in a parking lot, etc.) s smooth as butter. Then once you're rolling, the gas engine fires and the dsg clutch engages drive seamlessly. It works extremely well.
Nick Graves wrote: Exactly - a sample space of one represents a lack of statistical understanding & nothing else significant!
The problem with vages seems to be mostly sensors & solenoids regularly going wrong and being expensive to replace. A bit like coil packs, really. It's very irksome when it's dismissed as a 'characteristic' by the mfr. Like all of these things, there are good ones and (too many) bad ones and there is an element of luck.
The fluid is also hideously expensive to change.
I'd be very wary of one, personally. I'd be less wary if the mfr. was Japanese, though. But I believe Honda's is bought-in from Getrag or ZF - so I'd be very scared.
have mentioned it before, it was in a Swedish business journal an article about ZF and it said that Honda will use ZF (I think it was 9-speed, but could remember incorrectly) in their next NSX.
Nick Graves wrote: Exactly - a sample space of one represents a lack of statistical understanding & nothing else significant!
The problem with vages seems to be mostly sensors & solenoids regularly going wrong and being expensive to replace. A bit like coil packs, really. It's very irksome when it's dismissed as a 'characteristic' by the mfr. Like all of these things, there are good ones and (too many) bad ones and there is an element of luck.
The fluid is also hideously expensive to change.
I'd be very wary of one, personally. I'd be less wary if the mfr. was Japanese, though. But I believe Honda's is bought-in from Getrag or ZF - so I'd be very scared.
have mentioned it before, it was in a Swedish business journal an article about ZF and it said that Honda will use ZF (I think it was 9-speed, but could remember incorrectly) in their next NSX.
I think Autonews said so, too. Or it was from your link! Honda said 7-speed.
ZF is probably correct and I dunno why I thought Getrag.
Jeff is correct - the e-motor is the key to making them work smoothly. There are some human actions FREDs cannot do. Or many humans, come to that.
The TQ/CVT combination makes Honda's CVTs silky smooth. OK, they may waste some power cruisin' compared to a direct-drive DSG, but the KISS principle is something Honda values on its more affordable cars.
Jeff wrote: Honda eliminates the one issue you bring up by virtue of the electric motors found in the upcoming RLX and NSX. Low speed behavior (launch, creeping in a parking lot, etc.) s smooth as butter. Then once you're rolling, the gas engine fires and the dsg clutch engages drive seamlessly. It works extremely well.
Jeff wrote: Honda eliminates the one issue you bring up by virtue of the electric motors found in the upcoming RLX and NSX. Low speed behavior (launch, creeping in a parking lot, etc.) s smooth as butter. Then once you're rolling, the gas engine fires and the dsg clutch engages drive seamlessly. It works extremely well.
What happens when the battery runs low?
I think that would probably be a pretty rare case, but I'm sure it can start off just like a normal DSG, so it would be "sub optimal" that one time, but I think it would be a very infrequent occurrence.
Also, I'm not 100% sure about this and I'd have to see if I can find the demo video but I'm pretty sure this system can operate in the "HV" type mode where the gas engine is decoupled from the wheels but turning the motor/generator, which would then power the traction motors, so if this is the case then you'd never have to worry about anything but smooth starts.
Let's take a look at Honda Dual Clutch transmission for motorcycles. If Honda worked the bugs out of that should we not expect them to do the same for cars? Honda is one of the very few manufacturers that develop their own transmissions.
The 7/DCT in my cousins 2011 BMW 135i convertible is absolutely flawless. It's butter smooth as you don't feel the shifts at all, it's super responsive especially in sport mode, it shifts super quick, it's always in the right gear and it's all around performance is outstanding. It feels like a manual at times as it rolls back/forward when shifting from park to drive/reverse. Overall I couldn't find anything I didn't like about it.
In terms of reliability I think it has to do with the manufacturer and overall execution. I think Acura's version will do well.
Jeff wrote: Honda eliminates the one issue you bring up by virtue of the electric motors found in the upcoming RLX and NSX. Low speed behavior (launch, creeping in a parking lot, etc.) s smooth as butter. Then once you're rolling, the gas engine fires and the dsg clutch engages drive seamlessly. It works extremely well.
What happens when the battery runs low?
I think that would probably be a pretty rare case, but I'm sure it can start off just like a normal DSG, so it would be "sub optimal" that one time, but I think it would be a very infrequent occurrence.
Also, I'm not 100% sure about this and I'd have to see if I can find the demo video but I'm pretty sure this system can operate in the "HV" type mode where the gas engine is decoupled from the wheels but turning the motor/generator, which would then power the traction motors, so if this is the case then you'd never have to worry about anything but smooth starts.
Hmm... do they all use a "multimotor" IMA?
In such a case, the engine can run but "drive" the "external" electric motor(s) as a series hybrid.
Hmm... this means that the only clutch in the whole drivetrain is between the internal ICE/motor/gen and the "external" drivetrain components.
Three electric motors... one attached to the DSG, the other two attached to the front wheels, and the one attached to the DSG when not in use will be a generator to charge the battery with the regenerating breaking, to always make sure there is juice in the battery.
Also the engine can run alone with out the motors.
Three electric motors... one attached to the DSG, the other two attached to the front wheels, and the one attached to the DSG when not in use will be a generator to charge the battery with the regenerating breaking, to always make sure there is juice in the battery.
Also the engine can run alone with out the motors.
Actually, they do. By "multimotor" I specifically mentioned that there are "outside" motors that can be operated while not being mechanically attached to the main "ICE/electric-motor/generator" unit.
The Accord has two electric motors with a clutch between the outside and inside... with the inside being attached to the engine at all times so it can operate as a generator in series hybrid.... Since this system is FWD then it makes a lot of sense to attach them all to the mechanical drivetrain.
It seems like in the eSH-AWD set up, then the ICE/main-motor/generator take care of one axle while the other two electric motors power the other axle. So, it can also run as a series hybrid when only the electrically powered axle is propelling the car.
So, in the NSX the electric motors are on the front tires, while in the RLX they are on the rear tires.
Which means, that if the engine is NOT running, the NSX is FWD and the RLX is RWD.
CivicB18 wrote: The 7/DCT in my cousins 2011 BMW 135i convertible is absolutely flawless. It's butter smooth as you don't feel the shifts at all, it's super responsive especially in sport mode, it shifts super quick, it's always in the right gear and it's all around performance is outstanding. It feels like a manual at times as it rolls back/forward when shifting from park to drive/reverse. Overall I couldn't find anything I didn't like about it.
In terms of reliability I think it has to do with the manufacturer and overall execution. I think Acura's version will do well.
~Patrick
If you think the 7 dsg in the 135i is "butter smooth", you've obviously never driven one of their 8 speed automatics!
Jeff wrote: Honda eliminates the one issue you bring up by virtue of the electric motors found in the upcoming RLX and NSX. Low speed behavior (launch, creeping in a parking lot, etc.) s smooth as butter. Then once you're rolling, the gas engine fires and the dsg clutch engages drive seamlessly. It works extremely well.
I find the evolution of drivelines to include electric motors in the transmission to be really interesting. BMW's ZF based transmission "hybrids" also use a small electric motor integrated in the trans (a really cheap way to implement hybrid tech...). I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd imagine that the secondary benefit to the smoothness is much reduced driveline losses.
Three electric motors... one attached to the DSG, the other two attached to the front wheels, and the one attached to the DSG when not in use will be a generator to charge the battery with the regenerating breaking, to always make sure there is juice in the battery.
Also the engine can run alone with out the motors.
Actually, they do. By "multimotor" I specifically mentioned that there are "outside" motors that can be operated while not being mechanically attached to the main "ICE/electric-motor/generator" unit.
The Accord has two electric motors with a clutch between the outside and inside... with the inside being attached to the engine at all times so it can operate as a generator in series hybrid.... Since this system is FWD then it makes a lot of sense to attach them all to the mechanical drivetrain.
It seems like in the eSH-AWD set up, then the ICE/main-motor/generator take care of one axle while the other two electric motors power the other axle. So, it can also run as a series hybrid when only the electrically powered axle is propelling the car.
So, in the NSX the electric motors are on the front tires, while in the RLX they are on the rear tires.
Which means, that if the engine is NOT running, the NSX is FWD and the RLX is RWD.
Something is not kosher here, huh?
On a straight "eco" EV cruise run it doesn't matter which axle the e motors are on.
Its more about adding AWD AND sport options to the RLX or eco to the NSX.
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