RolledaNsx
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Sept 29
Read about the new civic for WTCC.
The engine in that series must last for a whole season!
And must be almost stock.
TYPE-R ENGINE :)~
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DCR
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WongKN wrote:
The Type-R badge holds its own against brand snobbery because by in reality the lure of owning a Type-R is in itself a brand snobbery in a way.
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With proper timing, and by that I would point to the EP3 Si, a Type-R variant in the USA would have been a smash hit. It has always boggled my mind at how Honda can have access to such a winning formula, and yet they can produce some vehicles that leaves people shaking their heads. It is almost like they hold a design contest where people who normally design sweaters for cats are the lucky winners for new vehicle design.
Outside of the Integra Type-R, we have never been given such a purpose-built machine with such street appeal. The 8th Gen Si is a pretty close attempt, and arguably the best Si ever created. If Honda really cares about profits, they'd understand the brand power of that Type-R badge and the importance of it. Hell, imagine if they made a Type-R based from the 8th Gen Si? I'd have sold any organ superfluous to life to buy it, and I am sure I speak for anyone who loves Honda performance models.
Where I really started to question Honda was around the time of the Mugen Si release. That car was immediately attacked for being the wrong way to bring a heavy dollar Civic, and it was exactly that. The Mugen parts should have been over the counter transactions for the garage, and not a full blown model, because the "No one will buy a $30k Civic" prophecy became self-fulfilled. One correction to that, given the fairly obvious, is that a $30k Civic Type-R that performed like a $30k Civic Type-R would sell just fine in the limited production numbers allocated. At the time, the new Si was running $21k or so, and I would think that production of a Type-R variant could happen within a $9k tolerance.
I think it is a very big mistake to ignore the Honda enthusiast that flocked to the product because of redlines and good handling. We are all still here, wants the same, with no products to satisfy us.
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P54
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Sept 29
Read about the new civic for WTCC.
The engine in that series must last for a whole season!
And must be almost stock.
TYPE-R ENGINE :)~
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Honda has already implied that what they learned developing the new WTCC engine, the 1.6L turbo, will trickle down to their street engines. Since the engine must be "based" on a production engine and the first full season is 2013 it also implies Honda will have a production car in 2013 with said engine. More than likely a Civic "R".
The CR-Z and the Insight is based on FIT and since they are built in Japan and hence is not profitable for shipment to USA due to exchange rate and Honda is building a new factory in Mexico for the new FIT it seems logical that with the new design for the FIT they also think about the new CR-Z and Insight. I guess the finishing details for the FIT is also going to affect the two others and as Honda have tried both turbo and supercharger on the CR-Z they have done so for the purpose of finding the best solution. Now at least they have a production ready 1.6L turbo and with new FIT coming from Mexico maybe the new CR-Z and Insight can be produced there too, with new drive-train. It is about putting all the pieces together at the right time at the right place.
When Honda entered INDY the rules where against Honda and then when Honda decided to do it they changed the rules to make it even harder for Honda to enter.
In F1 they banned oval pistons and Honda were the only ones having that technology. In WTCC they tried to keep Honda out by making the rules for 1.6L turbo engines. All European manufacturers have similar engines, not Honda, however Honda did not let that stop them, they went ahead to develop a brand new engine.
Europe cries out for small turbo diesels and Honda sales are suffering as they do not have anything to offer, only the "big" 2.2L. Honda goes about to make a new worlds lightest most efficient 1.6L turbo diesel, just to satisfy the cry for Europe. Because of the light weight of the new diesel engine maybe Honda can find other uses for its new diesel engine also in other markets. India wants diesel too, however the diesel fuel is bad so they cannot use the new diesel engine developed for Europe, however have to build a new smaller diesel engine to run on the diesel fuel offered in India.
All these pieces will one day come together in new products, Honda is not lost or fallen, just restructuring and adjusting to new market demands. Remembering they had new products coming and developed but due to the economic crash and following natural disasters they were withdrawn, changed and/ or delayed.
Changes always have a time delay linked to it. But in today's "want it now" society it can be hard to wait.
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DCR
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P54 wrote:
Honda has already implied that what they learned developing the new WTCC engine, the 1.6L turbo, will trickle down to their street engines. Since the engine must be "based" on a production engine and the first full season is 2013 it also implies Honda will have a production car in 2013 with said engine. More than likely a Civic "R".
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In 2013, they will also begin selling Sno-Cones in hell.
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P54
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DCR wrote:
P54 wrote:
Honda has already implied that what they learned developing the new WTCC engine, the 1.6L turbo, will trickle down to their street engines. Since the engine must be "based" on a production engine and the first full season is 2013 it also implies Honda will have a production car in 2013 with said engine. More than likely a Civic "R".
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In 2013, they will also begin selling Sno-Cones in hell.
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Sorry, too late. It's been for sale since 2008.
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DCR
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I hope you don't think they will sell that engine here in 2013.
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RolledaNsx
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Wasn't developed for the US market. Have you ever seen Honda sell a Type-R here?
Tuners own this market.... will you pay $10,000 more or just get a Si and add aftermarket treats for less $ ?
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DCR
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Wasn't developed for the US market. Have you ever seen Honda sell a Type-R here?
Tuners own this market.... will you pay $10,000 more or just get a Si and add aftermarket treats for less $ ?
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I have never been given the choice.
Tuners do own the market, which makes it more of a surprise that Honda decided to ignore almost the entire thing with the K24.
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RolledaNsx
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If Erik Berkman gets his way, you will be given that choice on the next Civic plus a 5 door Hatch.
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DCR
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I hope so. My FR-S will be 4 years old by that point, and that might be time to come back.
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Double J
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I'll go out on a limb and say that tuners would prefer to start with the top model. Speaking from my experience anyway. If you ask me the new K24 is not a performance engine at all. It just has the same output as the K20. Normal consumers might not care but tuners can easily see the difference (no more soul). For example there is not a alot of tuning going on with the NA EP3 but if they were to have sent over the Type R that would have been another story all together. Also you could tune a GSR with 10 grand but it would not gaurantee it would be a better all around performer than a stock DC2.
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Fan Koni
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If Honda makes the 1.6T then in UK; next to where the Fit/Jazz, Euro civic and CR-V are made.
If the engine fits into a CRV it isn't much of a stretch to plant it into a civic or ILX.
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WongKN
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RolledaNsx,
I want to say 'thank you' for providing interesting insider info to complement what little I have learned from the current bunch of guys at Honda Malaysia. Of course your market (related to U.S. and probably Canada) and my market (related to ASEAN) are different but I think there are quite a lot of things which are shared and thus identical too.
One thing I am concerned about the WTCC Civic 'R' is that European developments do not always carry over to the rest of the world very well. The Euro Accord Type-R for e.g. was never carried anywhere except the JDM in the form of the Accord Euro-R (which was also an improved version from what I remember).
For the rest of the world, as far as I know, that one statement given to me a couple of years ago "I have seen the new model development matrix and there is completely no sporty models in it", sadly should still hold true. So I am not holding my breath for any interesting Hondas in the near future. The 'hotter' CR-Z was the one single bright news which is why I am so sad that nothing seems to be coming out of it, even when I gotten the word from the LPL that it is being developed.
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RolledaNsx
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Things are changing now!!!! Back in 04-05 Honda guess wrong on the near future auto market, you can't blame them,home market getting smaller(population getting older) US and Euro talking about passing strong mpg and smog laws,so they jumped on the Green bandwagon and the recession scared them to death!
ILX.... the new "old school" US team don't like the powertrain options just like us! You might see the k24 in the mmc in stick and auto.
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RolledaNsx
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And your HOTTED CR-Z has been testing for two years.They even let the British auto mags to test drive it but im thinking their input kill'd it! ..... not worth the extra money for 200hp,
they wanted the Civic R back.... and it looks like there getting their wish.
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WongKN
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Wow, thanks for all these new info. I wonder who are those stupid Brit auto mags who tested the hotted CR-Z. A 200hp CR-Z and they rejected it ? How would they know how much extra it would cost ? Did Honda already have pricing for the car ?
I am sorry for more ranting but this is one other big problem of Honda and that is Honda simply does not know how to value, treasure and make full use of one of the biggest advantage they have over most other manufacturers - their fan base. I am not sure how consistent the behaviours are but Honda in Malaysia for e.g. simply puts too much emphasis on the mainstream media. I suppose it is some internal policy and no-one dares overrides it. They put top emphasis on 'dailies' - newspapers and even internet associated with dailies. They simply dare not put enough emphasis on owners clubs or enthusiast resources. I remember one incident many years ago when the 7G Accord was launched and one idiot from a local mag, supposedly put in high esteem by Honda Malaysia complained in the press conference that the new (at the time) 7G Accord became 'too sporty'. He says he expects the Accord to be plush and luxury oriented and he is not impressed by all those twincam engines and so forth. It should be more like a Toyota or a Mercedes he says. More recently, when Honda Malaysia launched the CR-Z in 6MT form, many media complained that there was no auto option. 'Manual won't sell, I know the market'. BULLSHIT, they don't know dick about the Honda enthusiast scene. But too late, Honda Malaysia now has the mentality "manual cars don't sell".
If Honda is to learn one thing from all the recent problems, it is to learn to put more emphasis on their long time fans and enthusiasts, and less, A LOT LESS emphasis on -certain- mainstream media.
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Grace141
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Fan Koni wrote:
If Honda makes the 1.6T then in UK; next to where the Fit/Jazz, Euro civic and CR-V are made.
If the engine fits into a CRV it isn't much of a stretch to plant it into a civic or ILX.
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The ILX with the 1.6T is an interesting thought. It wouldn't necessarily be what many Americans might expect which is a super aggressive setup like the 1st gen RDX but I would think it would be a nice drive. And the source of the 1.6T would/should address the complaints the superfans have with the ILX.
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FiSH-Chan
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WongKN wrote:
Wow, thanks for all these new info. I wonder who are those stupid Brit auto mags who tested the hotted CR-Z. A 200hp CR-Z and they rejected it ? How would they know how much extra it would cost ? Did Honda already have pricing for the car ?
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I saw a few of those reviews (the mugen one I think) on youtube basically they somehow think the cost of the prototype is the suggested retail price. The thing is, I see plenty of really dumb review sometimes. Just some time ago I saw some guy saying the Civic Hybrid gets 'maybe a few more mpg' than a non-hybrid Sonata. Honda should really differentiate those who know and those who have no clue what they are talking about, although I see that usually the Honda approach to their models is almost always = sporty, mainstream, sporty, mainstream, sporty, mainstream... like they are trying to grab different buyers each generation.
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WongKN
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Seems to me to be more like groping in the dark, with no focus or clear direction where they really want to take the Accord.
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