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HONDA AFVM
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P54 wrote:
It is confirmed, I4 gets both CVT and 6 speed manual. V6 gets 6 speed automatic or 6 speed manual.
"The 2013 Accord Sedan and Coupe will feature all-new powertrains, including the first U.S. application of the new Earth Dreams 2.4-liter direct-injected four-cylinder engine. The engine will be paired with a 6-speed manual transmission or the new CVT that utilizes an innovative control system for excellent acceleration and responsive shifting. The Accord Sedan and Coupe also will be offered with a new 3.5-liter V-6 engine, paired to a new 6-speed automatic transmission or an available 6-speed manual transmission."
http://www.hondanews.com/channels/corporate-headlines/releases/honda-plants-start-producing-earth-dreams-engines-transmissions-for-all-new-2013-honda-accord
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Read it again slower........but you will know for sure Monday.....
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CR-V9
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HONDA AFVM, will you ask them if the 2.0l with the Accord Plug-in is a true ExLink Atkinson engine, please.
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CR-V9
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Andrew.....
I can't talk to much, but When Ito took control of Honda, the world was in the biggest recession in history and he panicked.
The mail everyday was cut,cut,cut..... he wasn't going to lose the company under his watch!
But his department leads took it to far! They took shortcuts!!!!
(lets use the suspension design from the civic) kinda...
Honda's way is to find a way to do it but DON'T CUT CORNERS!!!!
That's why we have new LEAD in America and our NEW LEAD is NUMBER 2 in the COMPANY..... He DON'T CUT CORNERS!!!!!
This new Accord: 99% of the people will love it, just the Racers at Heart will be sad.
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I don't work for Honda nor know anybody work for them nor anybody at the dealer or their suppliers. I'm a just fan of them.
You said "the world was in the biggest recession in history". How would you have reacted? Ito as a ceo affect everybody in the company. Maybe you didn't lose your livelihood because he over reacted. Did you foresee the earthquake? Flooding? Do you know how much this ED engine family roll out cost? It is easy to say when you'd not have to make hundre million dollar decisions.
Do you think Europe is not having their debts problems? It seems Greece is going to default and be out of Euro. Do you think this world finacial cirisis is over now? You don't have to think because you're not the ceo
Your new lead guy who don't cut courers, you said. Who's approved him ultimately? And You're delutional if you think he is somehow imune from budgets and cost structures.
As for Andrew, yes he is loud and go overboard sometimes. But we all know that even though you might not have know that.
Can you imagine if were a Honda or Acura salesman and you'd have to deal with whatever Honda spits out. There is nothing you could do. You'd have to take it because your livelihood is at stake. I'd be disappointed or awed sometimes but it still is just trivial things to me what Honda does to their cars. Andrew and the others have to still provide roof over their heads, foods on the table and some goodies for their kids if they can.
No, I don't mean to be quiet but you could have some empacy and you still could make your points.
(Sorry if I came out a bit too strong. I felt Andrew was beaten unfairely a bit)
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P54
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^
+1
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RolledaNsx
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Come on man.....
He gets off on teasing you with so/so info,
gets you all work'd up, drags you along,
and in the end, tells you nothing.
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P54
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Come on man.....
He gets off on teasing you with so/so info,
gets you all work'd up, drags you along,
and in the end, tells you nothing.
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What did you contribute to that amounted to more than nothing?
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owequitit
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
Andrew.....
I can't talk to much, but When Ito took control of Honda, the world was in the biggest recession in history and he panicked.
The mail everyday was cut,cut,cut..... he wasn't going to lose the company under his watch!
But his department leads took it to far! They took shortcuts!!!!
(lets use the suspension design from the civic) kinda...
Honda's way is to find a way to do it but DON'T CUT CORNERS!!!!
That's why we have new LEAD in America and our NEW LEAD is NUMBER 2 in the COMPANY..... He DON'T CUT CORNERS!!!!!
This new Accord: 99% of the people will love it, just the Racers at Heart will be sad.
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And if they built the Accord for the racers, they would sell 50,000 a year rather then 250,000........and that would devastate the company, the work force and the cities they build in. This is not the country it was 30, 20 or even 10 years ago......you have every manufacture undercutting Honda and Toyota, using them in their adds, offering rebates larger then normal if you trade one of their products in on a chevy (a few years ago, but point).......Honda is growing, they are moving in a direction they ever had to before......to compete......they always had the lead.......It takes time to shift.....that time is now......
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You sure about that? Why has the firmer,tighter, and more racy Camry SE driven 40% of Camry sales? How is Altima vying for #2 in segment with the sportiest setup?
Why did Honda used to own 30-40% of the segment and help Toyota make every other competitor obsolete through the 80's and 90's with the sportiest Accords in history? How did Honda used to sell nearly 450k Accords every year, and now they are barely clearing 300-350, even though the segment is the same size? You keep spewing this drivel about how it doesn't matter, and yet, by every objective measure, it HAS mattered. In fact, I would bet I can go dig through your history and find you saying the exact opposite of what you are saying now...
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P54
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owequitit wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
Andrew.....
I can't talk to much, but When Ito took control of Honda, the world was in the biggest recession in history and he panicked.
The mail everyday was cut,cut,cut..... he wasn't going to lose the company under his watch!
But his department leads took it to far! They took shortcuts!!!!
(lets use the suspension design from the civic) kinda...
Honda's way is to find a way to do it but DON'T CUT CORNERS!!!!
That's why we have new LEAD in America and our NEW LEAD is NUMBER 2 in the COMPANY..... He DON'T CUT CORNERS!!!!!
This new Accord: 99% of the people will love it, just the Racers at Heart will be sad.
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And if they built the Accord for the racers, they would sell 50,000 a year rather then 250,000........and that would devastate the company, the work force and the cities they build in. This is not the country it was 30, 20 or even 10 years ago......you have every manufacture undercutting Honda and Toyota, using them in their adds, offering rebates larger then normal if you trade one of their products in on a chevy (a few years ago, but point).......Honda is growing, they are moving in a direction they ever had to before......to compete......they always had the lead.......It takes time to shift.....that time is now......
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You sure about that? Why has the firmer,tighter, and more racy Camry SE driven 40% of Camry sales? How is Altima vying for #2 in segment with the sportiest setup?
Why did Honda used to own 30-40% of the segment and help Toyota make every other competitor obsolete through the 80's and 90's with the sportiest Accords in history? How did Honda used to sell nearly 450k Accords every year, and now they are barely clearing 300-350, even though the segment is the same size? You keep spewing this drivel about how it doesn't matter, and yet, by every objective measure, it HAS mattered. In fact, I would bet I can go dig through your history and find you saying the exact opposite of what you are saying now...
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Maybe some of the loyal Camry owners over the years got old enough kids now that are buying into Toyota too. Who told you they would buy Honda if it was more "sporty". Maybe it was only the alloy wheels and features that got their attention. New Camry outsells old Accord, big news, wait till the new Accord is out too, then you can compare.
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owequitit
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P54 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
Andrew.....
I can't talk to much, but When Ito took control of Honda, the world was in the biggest recession in history and he panicked.
The mail everyday was cut,cut,cut..... he wasn't going to lose the company under his watch!
But his department leads took it to far! They took shortcuts!!!!
(lets use the suspension design from the civic) kinda...
Honda's way is to find a way to do it but DON'T CUT CORNERS!!!!
That's why we have new LEAD in America and our NEW LEAD is NUMBER 2 in the COMPANY..... He DON'T CUT CORNERS!!!!!
This new Accord: 99% of the people will love it, just the Racers at Heart will be sad.
|
And if they built the Accord for the racers, they would sell 50,000 a year rather then 250,000........and that would devastate the company, the work force and the cities they build in. This is not the country it was 30, 20 or even 10 years ago......you have every manufacture undercutting Honda and Toyota, using them in their adds, offering rebates larger then normal if you trade one of their products in on a chevy (a few years ago, but point).......Honda is growing, they are moving in a direction they ever had to before......to compete......they always had the lead.......It takes time to shift.....that time is now......
|
You sure about that? Why has the firmer,tighter, and more racy Camry SE driven 40% of Camry sales? How is Altima vying for #2 in segment with the sportiest setup?
Why did Honda used to own 30-40% of the segment and help Toyota make every other competitor obsolete through the 80's and 90's with the sportiest Accords in history? How did Honda used to sell nearly 450k Accords every year, and now they are barely clearing 300-350, even though the segment is the same size? You keep spewing this drivel about how it doesn't matter, and yet, by every objective measure, it HAS mattered. In fact, I would bet I can go dig through your history and find you saying the exact opposite of what you are saying now...
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Maybe some of the loyal Camry owners over the years got old enough kids now that are buying into Toyota too. Who told you they would buy Honda if it was more "sporty". Maybe it was only the alloy wheels and features that got their attention. New Camry outsells old Accord, big news, wait till the new Accord is out too, then you can compare.
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How do you know that Toyota isn't selling them because they were pissed off at Honda? The average buyer age of the current Accord increased by ~5-10 years. The other buyers had to go somewhere...
Nice try, but as usual, you fail again.
Honda's sales are down, the average age is up, and the "sportier" versions of other cars are gaining the most ground sales wise. I could paint a picture, but you still wouldn't understand.
I don't have to wait for the new car to be released to compare because the Camry has NEVER lead the Accord by as much as it is now. It is going to be really hard to reverse a trend that is exacerbated by the technology they are pulling from their cars.
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HONDA AFVM
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owequitit wrote:
P54 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
Andrew.....
I can't talk to much, but When Ito took control of Honda, the world was in the biggest recession in history and he panicked.
The mail everyday was cut,cut,cut..... he wasn't going to lose the company under his watch!
But his department leads took it to far! They took shortcuts!!!!
(lets use the suspension design from the civic) kinda...
Honda's way is to find a way to do it but DON'T CUT CORNERS!!!!
That's why we have new LEAD in America and our NEW LEAD is NUMBER 2 in the COMPANY..... He DON'T CUT CORNERS!!!!!
This new Accord: 99% of the people will love it, just the Racers at Heart will be sad.
|
And if they built the Accord for the racers, they would sell 50,000 a year rather then 250,000........and that would devastate the company, the work force and the cities they build in. This is not the country it was 30, 20 or even 10 years ago......you have every manufacture undercutting Honda and Toyota, using them in their adds, offering rebates larger then normal if you trade one of their products in on a chevy (a few years ago, but point).......Honda is growing, they are moving in a direction they ever had to before......to compete......they always had the lead.......It takes time to shift.....that time is now......
|
You sure about that? Why has the firmer,tighter, and more racy Camry SE driven 40% of Camry sales? How is Altima vying for #2 in segment with the sportiest setup?
Why did Honda used to own 30-40% of the segment and help Toyota make every other competitor obsolete through the 80's and 90's with the sportiest Accords in history? How did Honda used to sell nearly 450k Accords every year, and now they are barely clearing 300-350, even though the segment is the same size? You keep spewing this drivel about how it doesn't matter, and yet, by every objective measure, it HAS mattered. In fact, I would bet I can go dig through your history and find you saying the exact opposite of what you are saying now...
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Maybe some of the loyal Camry owners over the years got old enough kids now that are buying into Toyota too. Who told you they would buy Honda if it was more "sporty". Maybe it was only the alloy wheels and features that got their attention. New Camry outsells old Accord, big news, wait till the new Accord is out too, then you can compare.
|
How do you know that Toyota isn't selling them because they were pissed off at Honda? The average buyer age of the current Accord increased by ~5-10 years. The other buyers had to go somewhere...
Nice try, but as usual, you fail again.
Honda's sales are down, the average age is up, and the "sportier" versions of other cars are gaining the most ground sales wise. I could paint a picture, but you still wouldn't understand.
I don't have to wait for the new car to be released to compare because the Camry has NEVER lead the Accord by as much as it is now. It is going to be really hard to reverse a trend that is exacerbated by the technology they are pulling from their cars.
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You kill me......there are 4 more cars on the market that has eaten into Accord and Camry sales, Optima, Sonata, Fusion and Malibu......These cars didn't exist 5 years ago in the form they are today.......10 yeas ago, they were not even out.......and if the Sonata and Malibu were any competition back then, they became a competitor BECAUSE of the Accord........
This is getting old, and I am done.......
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owequitit
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
owequitit wrote:
P54 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
Andrew.....
I can't talk to much, but When Ito took control of Honda, the world was in the biggest recession in history and he panicked.
The mail everyday was cut,cut,cut..... he wasn't going to lose the company under his watch!
But his department leads took it to far! They took shortcuts!!!!
(lets use the suspension design from the civic) kinda...
Honda's way is to find a way to do it but DON'T CUT CORNERS!!!!
That's why we have new LEAD in America and our NEW LEAD is NUMBER 2 in the COMPANY..... He DON'T CUT CORNERS!!!!!
This new Accord: 99% of the people will love it, just the Racers at Heart will be sad.
|
And if they built the Accord for the racers, they would sell 50,000 a year rather then 250,000........and that would devastate the company, the work force and the cities they build in. This is not the country it was 30, 20 or even 10 years ago......you have every manufacture undercutting Honda and Toyota, using them in their adds, offering rebates larger then normal if you trade one of their products in on a chevy (a few years ago, but point).......Honda is growing, they are moving in a direction they ever had to before......to compete......they always had the lead.......It takes time to shift.....that time is now......
|
You sure about that? Why has the firmer,tighter, and more racy Camry SE driven 40% of Camry sales? How is Altima vying for #2 in segment with the sportiest setup?
Why did Honda used to own 30-40% of the segment and help Toyota make every other competitor obsolete through the 80's and 90's with the sportiest Accords in history? How did Honda used to sell nearly 450k Accords every year, and now they are barely clearing 300-350, even though the segment is the same size? You keep spewing this drivel about how it doesn't matter, and yet, by every objective measure, it HAS mattered. In fact, I would bet I can go dig through your history and find you saying the exact opposite of what you are saying now...
|
Maybe some of the loyal Camry owners over the years got old enough kids now that are buying into Toyota too. Who told you they would buy Honda if it was more "sporty". Maybe it was only the alloy wheels and features that got their attention. New Camry outsells old Accord, big news, wait till the new Accord is out too, then you can compare.
|
How do you know that Toyota isn't selling them because they were pissed off at Honda? The average buyer age of the current Accord increased by ~5-10 years. The other buyers had to go somewhere...
Nice try, but as usual, you fail again.
Honda's sales are down, the average age is up, and the "sportier" versions of other cars are gaining the most ground sales wise. I could paint a picture, but you still wouldn't understand.
I don't have to wait for the new car to be released to compare because the Camry has NEVER lead the Accord by as much as it is now. It is going to be really hard to reverse a trend that is exacerbated by the technology they are pulling from their cars.
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You kill me......there are 4 more cars on the market that has eaten into Accord and Camry sales, Optima, Sonata, Fusion and Malibu......These cars didn't exist 5 years ago in the form they are today.......10 yeas ago, they were not even out.......and if the Sonata and Malibu were any competition back then, they became a competitor BECAUSE of the Accord........
This is getting old, and I am done.......
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All the more reason to increase competitive advantage no?
Also, go back and check your facts. The relative number of players is roughly the same as it has been for twenty years. The difference between then and now is that 20 years ago Honda obsoleted the competition by ADDING technology, refinement and advancement. If Honda had regressed or stayed stagnant all of those competitors 20 years ago, they would have gained ground then too.
P.S. I talked to the final decision maker on whether we buy a new Accord. If it doesn't drive the same (ride AND handling) then we will likely pass after 8 Accords in a row. Features are secondary apparently. Trivialize it all you want. When customers like that leave, Honda feels it. Even worse is that with the increased competition, it is that much harder for Honda to compensate by stealing someone else's potential customer...
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atomiclightbulb
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owequitit wrote:
How do you know that Toyota isn't selling them because they were pissed off at Honda? The average buyer age of the current Accord increased by ~5-10 years. The other buyers had to go somewhere...
Nice try, but as usual, you fail again. |
ToV isn't representative of the world. The vast majority of people I know do not follow the automotive industry very closely. They don't care or know about the number of gears in the transmission or the type of suspension. "Pissed at Honda" is not the reason most people buy Toyota. Past reliability is pretty much it.
| I don't have to wait for the new car to be released to compare because the Camry has NEVER lead the Accord by as much as it is now. It is going to be really hard to reverse a trend that is exacerbated by the technology they are pulling from their cars. |
In terms of sales, the new Camry was #1 by about 1300 units over the #2 Accord last month (July '12). http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1082235&news_item_id=1082208
Is that a historic lead?
If you are talking in terms of the vehicle itself, I'm honestly not very impressed with the Camry, as it doesn't really set itself apart in any way.
The exterior styling is kind of bland. While the interior is slightly better than the last generation, I don't think the design is aesthetically pleasing... it's not ugly, but again, it's bland.
Mac struts up front, mac struts in back, Electric Power Steering, 6AT, no manual transmission option.
I find it hard to believe people would buy this because they were "pissed" at Honda. Just considering enthusiasts alone, if Honda released a car like the current Camry, I bet that most would scream bloody murder at the sheet metal, interior, suspension, and pretty much everything else. Buying "bland" to protest "bland" is neither logically satisfying, nor emotionally satisfying.
While I generally agree with you that Honda should be pushing the envelope more, your arguments are genuinely bizarre.
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HONDA AFVM
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
owequitit wrote:
How do you know that Toyota isn't selling them because they were pissed off at Honda? The average buyer age of the current Accord increased by ~5-10 years. The other buyers had to go somewhere...
Nice try, but as usual, you fail again. |
ToV isn't representative of the world. The vast majority of people I know do not follow the automotive industry very closely. They don't care or know about the number of gears in the transmission or the type of suspension. "Pissed at Honda" is not the reason most people buy Toyota. Past reliability is pretty much it.
| I don't have to wait for the new car to be released to compare because the Camry has NEVER lead the Accord by as much as it is now. It is going to be really hard to reverse a trend that is exacerbated by the technology they are pulling from their cars. |
In terms of sales, the new Camry was #1 by about 1300 units over the #2 Accord last month (July '12). http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1082235&news_item_id=1082208
Is that a historic lead?
If you are talking in terms of the vehicle itself, I'm honestly not very impressed with the Camry, as it doesn't really set itself apart in any way.
The exterior styling is kind of bland. While the interior is slightly better than the last generation, I don't think the design is aesthetically pleasing... it's not ugly, but again, it's bland.
Mac struts up front, mac struts in back, Electric Power Steering, 6AT, no manual transmission option.
I find it hard to believe people would buy this because they were "pissed" at Honda. Just considering enthusiasts alone, if Honda released a car like the current Camry, I bet that most would scream bloody murder at the sheet metal, interior, suspension, and pretty much everything else. Buying "bland" to protest "bland" is neither logically satisfying, nor emotionally satisfying.
While I generally agree with you that Honda should be pushing the envelope more, your arguments are genuinely bizarre.
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Grand reply........You are a good person.
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P54
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
owequitit wrote:
How do you know that Toyota isn't selling them because they were pissed off at Honda? The average buyer age of the current Accord increased by ~5-10 years. The other buyers had to go somewhere...
Nice try, but as usual, you fail again. |
ToV isn't representative of the world. The vast majority of people I know do not follow the automotive industry very closely. They don't care or know about the number of gears in the transmission or the type of suspension. "Pissed at Honda" is not the reason most people buy Toyota. Past reliability is pretty much it.
| I don't have to wait for the new car to be released to compare because the Camry has NEVER lead the Accord by as much as it is now. It is going to be really hard to reverse a trend that is exacerbated by the technology they are pulling from their cars. |
In terms of sales, the new Camry was #1 by about 1300 units over the #2 Accord last month (July '12). http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1082235&news_item_id=1082208
Is that a historic lead?
If you are talking in terms of the vehicle itself, I'm honestly not very impressed with the Camry, as it doesn't really set itself apart in any way.
The exterior styling is kind of bland. While the interior is slightly better than the last generation, I don't think the design is aesthetically pleasing... it's not ugly, but again, it's bland.
Mac struts up front, mac struts in back, Electric Power Steering, 6AT, no manual transmission option.
I find it hard to believe people would buy this because they were "pissed" at Honda. Just considering enthusiasts alone, if Honda released a car like the current Camry, I bet that most would scream bloody murder at the sheet metal, interior, suspension, and pretty much everything else. Buying "bland" to protest "bland" is neither logically satisfying, nor emotionally satisfying.
While I generally agree with you that Honda should be pushing the envelope more, your arguments are genuinely bizarre.
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^
+1
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Trip
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
P54 wrote:
"The 2013 Accord Sedan and Coupe will feature all-new powertrains, including the first U.S. application of the new Earth Dreams 2.4-liter direct-injected four-cylinder engine. The engine will be paired with a 6-speed manual transmission or the new CVT that utilizes an innovative control system for excellent acceleration and responsive shifting. The Accord Sedan and Coupe also will be offered with a new 3.5-liter V-6 engine, paired to a new 6-speed automatic transmission or an available 6-speed manual transmission."
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Read it again slower ........but you will know for sure Monday.....
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Did I read it slow enough? ;)
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vh2k
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http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=1062301
Model list is pretty clear. There is no V6 Sedan with a manual transmission. Maybe they will offer later?
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owequitit
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
owequitit wrote:
How do you know that Toyota isn't selling them because they were pissed off at Honda? The average buyer age of the current Accord increased by ~5-10 years. The other buyers had to go somewhere...
Nice try, but as usual, you fail again. |
ToV isn't representative of the world. The vast majority of people I know do not follow the automotive industry very closely. They don't care or know about the number of gears in the transmission or the type of suspension. "Pissed at Honda" is not the reason most people buy Toyota. Past reliability is pretty much it.
| I don't have to wait for the new car to be released to compare because the Camry has NEVER lead the Accord by as much as it is now. It is going to be really hard to reverse a trend that is exacerbated by the technology they are pulling from their cars. |
In terms of sales, the new Camry was #1 by about 1300 units over the #2 Accord last month (July '12). http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1082235&news_item_id=1082208
Is that a historic lead?
If you are talking in terms of the vehicle itself, I'm honestly not very impressed with the Camry, as it doesn't really set itself apart in any way.
The exterior styling is kind of bland. While the interior is slightly better than the last generation, I don't think the design is aesthetically pleasing... it's not ugly, but again, it's bland.
Mac struts up front, mac struts in back, Electric Power Steering, 6AT, no manual transmission option.
I find it hard to believe people would buy this because they were "pissed" at Honda. Just considering enthusiasts alone, if Honda released a car like the current Camry, I bet that most would scream bloody murder at the sheet metal, interior, suspension, and pretty much everything else. Buying "bland" to protest "bland" is neither logically satisfying, nor emotionally satisfying.
While I generally agree with you that Honda should be pushing the envelope more, your arguments are genuinely bizarre.
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Nonsense. If "regular people" don't understand performance, value, feature content and perceived qualities, then how exactly did Honda and Toyota grow to dominate the market? More importantly, how have others re-gained ground lost decades ago, while Honda has lost ground gained decades ago?
I have said it before and I will say it again. The average person DOES know. They may not know why in technical terms, but they will typically know a better setup when they experience it. Just like Andrew talked about how it was really easy for customers to "get it" when they drive an IRS Civic on a shitty road and then drive the Elantra, the person is going to know the difference, even if they don't know independent rear suspension from blinker fluid. On the rest, you are just missing the point. I am not advocating for Honda to build a Camry. The fact you interpreted that shows me that you probably read to refute, not to understand. What I am advocating is for Honda to build proper Hondas again. I am using Camry as a talking point because it is freaking sad when Camry is giving Accord a run in the "sporty" department.
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owequitit
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
owequitit wrote:
How do you know that Toyota isn't selling them because they were pissed off at Honda? The average buyer age of the current Accord increased by ~5-10 years. The other buyers had to go somewhere...
Nice try, but as usual, you fail again. |
ToV isn't representative of the world. The vast majority of people I know do not follow the automotive industry very closely. They don't care or know about the number of gears in the transmission or the type of suspension. "Pissed at Honda" is not the reason most people buy Toyota. Past reliability is pretty much it.
| I don't have to wait for the new car to be released to compare because the Camry has NEVER lead the Accord by as much as it is now. It is going to be really hard to reverse a trend that is exacerbated by the technology they are pulling from their cars. |
In terms of sales, the new Camry was #1 by about 1300 units over the #2 Accord last month (July '12). http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1082235&news_item_id=1082208
Is that a historic lead?
If you are talking in terms of the vehicle itself, I'm honestly not very impressed with the Camry, as it doesn't really set itself apart in any way.
The exterior styling is kind of bland. While the interior is slightly better than the last generation, I don't think the design is aesthetically pleasing... it's not ugly, but again, it's bland.
Mac struts up front, mac struts in back, Electric Power Steering, 6AT, no manual transmission option.
I find it hard to believe people would buy this because they were "pissed" at Honda. Just considering enthusiasts alone, if Honda released a car like the current Camry, I bet that most would scream bloody murder at the sheet metal, interior, suspension, and pretty much everything else. Buying "bland" to protest "bland" is neither logically satisfying, nor emotionally satisfying.
While I generally agree with you that Honda should be pushing the envelope more, your arguments are genuinely bizarre.
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I am addressing the second part of your post here.
Your point looks great if you only consider 1 month and don't do any trend analysis. The problem with that is that YTD Toyota has moved 255k Camrys to Honda's 187k Accords. That is about 30% more. Blame the earthquake, tsunami, whatever. Coupled with all of the other numbers, I find it alarming.
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atomiclightbulb
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owequitit wrote:
Nonsense. If "regular people" don't understand performance, value, feature content and perceived qualities, then how exactly did Honda and Toyota grow to dominate the market? More importantly, how have others re-gained ground lost decades ago, while Honda has lost ground gained decades ago? |
Two points: (1) Car buyers decades ago are different than they are now. As Honda AFVM and other dealers here have said over and over again, connectivity and features are coming to dominate the marketplace. Performance less so. (2) As to the bolded part: reliability, reliability, and reliability. People were just fed up with having to spend time and/or shell out cash to repair some POS from Detroit over and over again. The American brands didn't start re-taking ground until they seriously improved their quality starting in the mid-2000's.
| I am not advocating for Honda to build a Camry. The fact you interpreted that shows me that you probably read to refute, not to understand. What I am advocating is for Honda to build proper Hondas again. I am using Camry as a talking point because it is freaking sad when Camry is giving Accord a run in the "sporty" department. |
I have said this over and over in numerous threads: (1) Design matters (2) Build to a standard, not a price point. Maybe you should just say what you mean next time instead of beating around the bush.
The Camry is giving nobody a run in the "sporty" department. It is roadkill compared to the Altima, Accord, and Fusion. You can't buy a Camry with a proper manual transmission, while Honda at least offers the 5MT in the ancient 8G Sedan/Coupe and the 6MT in the V6 Coupe.
Comparing the latest generation of Camry to a stumbling and nearly off-market last generation Accord makes no sense. If the 9G Accord is worse than the Camry, maybe you will have a point. However, I wouldn't bet on that. Between the new 4-cylinder Earth Dreams engine and the availability of 6MT for both the Sedan and Coupe, I think Honda stands a good chance of regaining "sporty" this time from the hands of Mazda and Nissan.
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owequitit
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Nonsense. If "regular people" don't understand performance, value, feature content and perceived qualities, then how exactly did Honda and Toyota grow to dominate the market? More importantly, how have others re-gained ground lost decades ago, while Honda has lost ground gained decades ago? |
Two points: (1) Car buyers decades ago are different than they are now. As Honda AFVM and other dealers here have said over and over again, connectivity and features are coming to dominate the marketplace. Performance less so. (2) As to the bolded part: reliability, reliability, and reliability. People were just fed up with having to spend time and/or shell out cash to repair some POS from Detroit over and over again. The American brands didn't start re-taking ground until they seriously improved their quality starting in the mid-2000's.
| I am not advocating for Honda to build a Camry. The fact you interpreted that shows me that you probably read to refute, not to understand. What I am advocating is for Honda to build proper Hondas again. I am using Camry as a talking point because it is freaking sad when Camry is giving Accord a run in the "sporty" department. |
I have said this over and over in numerous threads: (1) Design matters (2) Build to a standard, not a price point. Maybe you should just say what you mean next time instead of beating around the bush.
The Camry is giving nobody a run in the "sporty" department. It is roadkill compared to the Altima, Accord, and Fusion. You can't buy a Camry with a proper manual transmission, while Honda at least offers the 5MT in the ancient 8G Sedan/Coupe and the 6MT in the V6 Coupe.
Comparing the latest generation of Camry to a stumbling and nearly off-market last generation Accord makes no sense. If the 9G Accord is worse than the Camry, maybe you will have a point. However, I wouldn't bet on that. Between the new 4-cylinder Earth Dreams engine and the availability of 6MT for both the Sedan and Coupe, I think Honda stands a good chance of regaining "sporty" this time from the hands of Mazda and Nissan.
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1) Connectivity is increasingly important. However, that doesn't mean not riding an ox cart is less important. That is a cop out for decontenting the cars. Also, most sales are still of the not fully loaded model in most segments. That illustrates that gadget features are NOT solely the most important aspects, or everyone would pony up for them. Most people still balance features with price, and there isn't a single consumer on the planet that would turn down a more refined/improved experience ceteris parabus.
2) The majority of buyers are not Gen Y (the ones who supposedly favor connectivity above all else), so targeting every product at them is silly (especially ones with median demographics well above there age; Accord sits in the mid-fifties currently, but was mid-forties prior to the 8th gen). Cutting technology toward Gen Y doesn't make as much sense in every case.
3) Connectivity is dirt cheap. There is no reason we have to sacrifice everything in the interest of it. The cost of the car would not increase greatly. Also, consider the outcome of the trend in 5 years when all of that technology is now hopelessly obsolete. Then what?
4) I keep hearing about how connectivity is all Gen Y cares about. I fit into GenY, and it is NOT the only thing I care about...
5) The reality is that nobody really knows what Gen Y wants. We keep getting all of these exciting Gen Y products, and by and large they don't sell. So when people tell me with 100% certainy what a car needs to woo these buyers, I don't put a lot of faith in it. What I am seeing (as a Gen Y buyer) are products that appeal to me for the same reasons they appeal to other rational people, only with the ability to connect to my devices. I am far from wanting a cheaped out shitbox that has a badass carputer in it.
6) The assertions that one must give up everything for connectivity are also bullshit from a pricing point of view. Apple often commands an MSRP that is nearly 2x the competition. Yet, their sales trends show it doesn't matter. People WILL pay for the right product. Apple products are also not perfect, but they provide the quality that consumers apparently feel justifies the price. Honda was in the same position just a few years ago (among the highest MSRPs, lowest discounts, among the highest sales). It was a recipe that wasn't broken, which goes right back to my point about Honda's troubles being directly proportional to their retreat from their core competences.
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THX17201
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owequitit wrote:
6) The assertions that one must give up everything for connectivity are also bullshit from a pricing point of view. Apple often commands an MSRP that is nearly 2x the competition. Yet, their sales trends show it doesn't matter. People WILL pay for the right product. Apple products are also not perfect, but they provide the quality that consumers apparently feel justifies the price. Honda was in the same position just a few years ago (among the highest MSRPs, lowest discounts, among the highest sales). It was a recipe that wasn't broken, which goes right back to my point about Honda's troubles being directly proportional to their retreat from their core competences.
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You nailed it on that paragraph!
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A77
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So much truth in owe's last post.
I think there needs to be a basic level of connectivity - ie bluetooth, USB. Beyond that....it's questionable. Really cars software just need to be upgradable to remain compatible with cell phones/tablets. Rest is fluff. apart from proximity sensors and push button start - I am mildly harangued often on this one.
The thing above all needs to look good - and this new one (sedan anyway) does. it needs to post great mpg. it needs to be liked by consumer reports (the knock on effect of the civic debacle I think is killing us). It needs to be really nice inside, have way better seats (8 gen = crap), be much quieter, handle/steer decently, not be slow (the V6 auto needs to feel much stronger).
Honda has made a lot of progress connectivity wise - the 11 pilot for instance was a disgrace not having BT or USB unless you spent $50K in Canada. (Only the vapour ware LX Odyssey and DX civic didnt have them). So that issue has been fixed. Its now time to concentrate on the usual basics. I am totally non-plussed by blind spot warning systems and collision avoidance buzzers and hope these frivolities arent an excuse for second rate engineering/build quality. This time round I am pretty confident they won't be.
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gogzy
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A77 wrote:
So much truth in owe's last post.
I think there needs to be a basic level of connectivity - ie bluetooth, USB. Beyond that....it's questionable. Really cars software just need to be upgradable to remain compatible with cell phones/tablets. Rest is fluff. apart from proximity sensors and push button start - I am mildly harangued often on this one.
|
totally agree (all 3 above),
USB, BT shall be cheap because they are industry standard and i think there is no loyalty fee on it. the wiring and design are mostly published, generic. maybe Honda, move away from propitiatory, can create a location to connect usb, bt device, and it upgradeable, or swappable. think about it, a cheap, hd capable, notebook, such one with ion, or AMD e350/450, goes for ?? $400? in retail channel, why can't someone take it, extend it's screen cable and mount displayit on the rear as an entertainment system? move NAV to USB interface and so user can upgrade the guts. i hightly doubt the connectivity are that costly, services -yes, but the hardware should not be so expensive. besides, these hardware are getting dated and obsolete so fast, it's not even worth to spend $$$$$$ on it (from consumer/manufacturer R&D point of view).
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owequitit
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A77 wrote:
So much truth in owe's last post.
I think there needs to be a basic level of connectivity - ie bluetooth, USB. Beyond that....it's questionable. Really cars software just need to be upgradable to remain compatible with cell phones/tablets. Rest is fluff. apart from proximity sensors and push button start - I am mildly harangued often on this one.
The thing above all needs to look good - and this new one (sedan anyway) does. it needs to post great mpg. it needs to be liked by consumer reports (the knock on effect of the civic debacle I think is killing us). It needs to be really nice inside, have way better seats (8 gen = crap), be much quieter, handle/steer decently, not be slow (the V6 auto needs to feel much stronger).
Honda has made a lot of progress connectivity wise - the 11 pilot for instance was a disgrace not having BT or USB unless you spent $50K in Canada. (Only the vapour ware LX Odyssey and DX civic didnt have them). So that issue has been fixed. Its now time to concentrate on the usual basics. I am totally non-plussed by blind spot warning systems and collision avoidance buzzers and hope these frivolities arent an excuse for second rate engineering/build quality. This time round I am pretty confident they won't be.
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Even with available software updates, the hardware will quickly become obsolete.
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atomiclightbulb
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THX17201 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
6) The assertions that one must give up everything for connectivity are also bullshit from a pricing point of view. Apple often commands an MSRP that is nearly 2x the competition. Yet, their sales trends show it doesn't matter. People WILL pay for the right product. Apple products are also not perfect, but they provide the quality that consumers apparently feel justifies the price. Honda was in the same position just a few years ago (among the highest MSRPs, lowest discounts, among the highest sales). It was a recipe that wasn't broken, which goes right back to my point about Honda's troubles being directly proportional to their retreat from their core competences.
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You nailed it on that paragraph!
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No, he didn't.
Apple provides quality, but like Honda, they don't give you the latest technology, and their phones often lag behind Android competitors in technology.
For example, iPhone had 600 and 800 MHz ARM processors when competitors like HTC were using faster 1 GHz ARM processors. iPhone was late to 3G, and iPhone still doesn't support LTE. iPhone lacks haptic feedback.
So if people are bitching that Honda lacks certain features, or isn't leading in technology, and then points to Apple, they have the analogy very very wrong.
Apple is about making products that are greater than the sum of their parts. This is what Honda does.
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P54
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
6) The assertions that one must give up everything for connectivity are also bullshit from a pricing point of view. Apple often commands an MSRP that is nearly 2x the competition. Yet, their sales trends show it doesn't matter. People WILL pay for the right product. Apple products are also not perfect, but they provide the quality that consumers apparently feel justifies the price. Honda was in the same position just a few years ago (among the highest MSRPs, lowest discounts, among the highest sales). It was a recipe that wasn't broken, which goes right back to my point about Honda's troubles being directly proportional to their retreat from their core competences.
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You nailed it on that paragraph!
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No, he didn't.
Apple provides quality, but like Honda, they don't give you the latest technology, and their phones often lag behind Android competitors in technology.
For example, iPhone had 600 and 800 MHz ARM processors when competitors like HTC were using faster 1 GHz ARM processors. iPhone was late to 3G, and iPhone still doesn't support LTE. iPhone lacks haptic feedback.
So if people are bitching that Honda lacks certain features, or isn't leading in technology, and then points to Apple, they have the analogy very very wrong.
Apple is about making products that are greater than the sum of their parts. This is what Honda does.
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Preach it man, preach it! You nailed it on that paragraph!
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THX17201
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
No, he didn't.
Apple provides quality, but like Honda, they don't give you the latest technology, and their phones often lag behind Android competitors in technology.
For example, iPhone had 600 and 800 MHz ARM processors when competitors like HTC were using faster 1 GHz ARM processors. iPhone was late to 3G, and iPhone still doesn't support LTE. iPhone lacks haptic feedback.
So if people are bitching that Honda lacks certain features, or isn't leading in technology, and then points to Apple, they have the analogy very very wrong.
Apple is about making products that are greater than the sum of their parts. This is what Honda does.
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Umm everything you said points to the comparison being accurate. Not sure what you are refuting... Again the point is that people will pay more for perceived and real advantages, which is what Honda had going to them in the 90s. Hondas were more expensive than the competition but they had better handling, VTEC engines, great fuel economy, high resale value and were fun-to-drive. Everybody understood that and gladly paid for them, much like Apple products.
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