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HondaFan1990
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That's the comment my friend made when we were talking about Honda the other day. I was confused at what he meant so he went on to explain that Honda is like both of those greats from Germany in which they are all criticized for changing focus from their past selves. Porsche is "diluting" their brand with new models like the Panamera and Cayenne, although those bring in the money and for softening the 911 in current form. BMWs used to be the "Ultimate Driving Machine", but now their cars ride softer and their focus isn't the same with each model being less fun to drive with each redesign and less BMW like. And then there's Honda, the company that has turned its back on the people that made them in the first place and each redesign, much like BMWs, lack the "Honda magic" of before.
Do you guys agree or disagree with that? I think I agree with it. From my vantage point, Honda, BMW and Porsche all do whatever they want to in terms of cars. BMW puts out vehicles like the X6 of 5 GT that don't sell well, but they wanted to try something different in spite of the bad press and haven't changed their formula when it comes to redesigning their money makers. Porsche has taken their icon and softened it current gen while adding a sedan and SUV to their lineup, making Porsche "mainstream" when they've never been that. Honda sells the Crosstour and ZDX, two "flops", their hybrids don't excel compared to the Prius, the CRZ looks like it should be a CRX replacement but it's fitted with hybrid stuff and not a high revving engine, Civic and Accord have both matured and got softer, etc., etc. But even at that, these companies are all doing pretty well overall and in the process losing their "core" but gaining new fans as well.
Do you guys think the brands are similar? I've only really heard the "losing focus" argument when talking of these three as Toyota doesn't get the argument as much (although it can fit), the D3 is changing how they do business for the better and Hyundai/Kia and VW are making progress. The idea might be far fetched a little, I admit, but I can see where he was going with it.
Sidenote: I think the new Accord is a winner. The response to the exteriors have been kinda lukewarm, but it's classic Honda to my eyes. Honda has never been crazy with styling and never follow fashion trends. Hopefully the interior is amazing!!!
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CarPhreakD
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I don't think there's much to criticize when it comes to Porsche... unless it's about inflated pricing. The 911 grows ever more capable generation after generation, and the Cayman/Boxster are entirely credible sports cars. There is nothing wrong with the Panamera, and the Cayenne has not diluted the company's focus.
They are also bringing out the 918.
BMW has not lost its technical prowess, but its new generation cars are suffering from bloat. The new 5 series isn't really that great and they are investing in many niches- some pan out while others don't.
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notyper
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I don't know. I don't think you can lump Porsche into the same category. While they added the Cayenne and the Panamera, both those cars allowed them to continue to produce their core cars like the 911. Plus they added the Cayman and Boxster which are true sports cars. While the new 991 has received some criticism about the steering and slightly longer wheelbase, it is still a top notch performer, and we haven't even seen the turbo, GT2 and GT3 yet. Porsche certainly didn't dumb those down in the last generation.
BMW now, I think is a closer comparison. They really seem to be losing the plot, especially on their M-vehicles. I think they have a lot to be worried about in the long term. If the new M3 is as hot and cold as the new M5 is, look for some heads to roll.
As for Honda, if they were smart enough to embrace the big selling models for the middle of the market like the CRV, Odyssey, etc. while keeping just a bit of Honda DNA and then spend some of the profits to produce brand enhancing and enthusiast pleasing cars like the S2000, Type-Rs, NSX, etc. true to the Honda spirit, then I don't think anyone would complain. It's ok to experiment and seek more sales, but you still need to dance with the one that brung you. Porsche is doing that (why else keep the 911 rear engined?), Honda is not.
SC
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blueSi
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Honda is nothing like BMW and Porsche...or any other German automaker. Right now, Germany is building the best cars in the world, hands-down. BMW, Porsche, Audi, and Mercedes-Benz are all ahead of the pack in terms of technology, luxury, power, and handling.
The only thing Honda is mastering at the moment is the ability to build point A-to-B appliances. There is no passion, anymore, and certainly no creativity when it comes to design. I'm one of the few who actually likes the design of the new Accord Sedan, but I'm not blind to the fact that Honda simply replaced the headlights with Lexus IS units and the taillights with Hyundai Genesis clones.
Oh, and the new BMW 5-Series isn't that great? You obviously haven't driven one. Get behind the wheel of a 550i, and you'll find yourself in a big sedan with a 400 hp V8 that handles like a small car. It's luxurious and high-tech with seemingly endless power. It's the kind of car Honda COULD build for Acura, but they choose not to.
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MarkR
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In my part of the world, Scandinavia/Nordic european region Honda was considered the "Japanese BMW" still 10years ago. That was very much because of Honda was the manufacturer with "a little more/little better". Superb engineered and cutting edge motors.
Honda was viewed by the car press as the racing inspired and engineered common peoples car. The CTR/ATR/ITR was icons that defined how purposeful cars should be built. BMW was doing the same for European manufacturers.
Let's not kid ourselves, Honda might be the manufacturer with the slowest cars in the industry right now, much due to their lackluster engines.
Ps. the above is no critizism about Honda, they still are an amazing company, profitable and make extremely durable products. It's just BMW are still making fast cars, Honda chose not to.
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CivicB18
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blueSi wrote:
Honda is nothing like BMW and Porsche...or any other German automaker. Right now, Germany is building the best cars in the world, hands-down. BMW, Porsche, Audi, and Mercedes-Benz are all ahead of the pack in terms of technology, luxury, power, and handling.
The only thing Honda is mastering at the moment is the ability to build point A-to-B appliances. There is no passion, anymore, and certainly no creativity when it comes to design. I'm one of the few who actually likes the design of the new Accord Sedan, but I'm not blind to the fact that Honda simply replaced the headlights with Lexus IS units and the taillights with Hyundai Genesis clones.
Oh, and the new BMW 5-Series isn't that great? You obviously haven't driven one. Get behind the wheel of a 550i, and you'll find yourself in a big sedan with a 400 hp V8 that handles like a small car. It's luxurious and high-tech with seemingly endless power. It's the kind of car Honda COULD build for Acura, but they choose not to.
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No, the new 5 isn't that great. I've sampled a 528i and a 535i and while they were both quick they felt more Lexus like vs BMW's. The chassis is simply too heavy and isolated which absolutely ruined the level of tactile performance which the past E60 and E39 5 Series were known for. The 528 I sampled felt like a really nice yet overweight Accord LX.
The new M5 while better performing vs the last generation has been panned for lack of involvement. I've personally watch 3 different comparisons by various automotive publications where they put the BMW M5 against the Cadillac CTS-V and while the BMW posted slightly better laps times the testers actually preferred driving the Cadillac as the CTS-V's reflexes were sharper and its tactile performance was far superior to the over insulated BMW. BMW simply ruined the 5 by using the chassis from the 7.
~Patrick
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Nick GravesX
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MarkR wrote:
In my part of the world, Scandinavia/Nordic european region Honda was considered the "Japanese BMW" still 10years ago. That was very much because of Honda was the manufacturer with "a little more/little better". Superb engineered and cutting edge motors.
Honda was viewed by the car press as the racing inspired and engineered common peoples car. The CTR/ATR/ITR was icons that defined how purposeful cars should be built. BMW was doing the same for European manufacturers.
Let's not kid ourselves, Honda might be the manufacturer with the slowest cars in the industry right now, much due to their lackluster engines.
Ps. the above is no critizism about Honda, they still are an amazing company, profitable and make extremely durable products. It's just BMW are still making fast cars, Honda chose not to.
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I'd agree with that. It was about a decade ago that Honda started to go more mass-market - replacing the A3-like Civic with a family bus, etc etc. That might have had something to do with possibly bringing Acura over, but more likely simply chasing volume.
Honda's issues pre-date the current 'green lunacy' programs that are spoiling BMWs and harming Porsches.
Whilst I've generally felt that BMWs are generally good, yet over-rated, they do continue to make one or two excellent (if Fugly) models - The M3 may be too massive and the M5 could soon implode under its own gravity, but there is an Einser to replace it, etc. The 330/5 Diseasels are excellent company barges, etc.
Honda's simply given up even trying to add any interest to its range.
I know there's the NSX batteries-included etc for '14, but on its own it will be too little, too late. The damage is already done.
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GoFaster
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The guys on the English Top Gear just called the 5 Series "the best car in the world", and they went on and on about the superb Diesel motors (which are not available in the States on the 5 series).
BMW has not strayed from 50/50 weight distribution and the 3 series has been on C&D Top 10 for how many years in a row now? I have the twin turbo diesel 335d and how can anyone find fault with 425 lb/ft, 0-60 in 5.6 seconds, massive brakes, and 36 mpg? In the States there is NOTHING that compares, just nothing. Power is available like a muscle car, yet it handles like a sports car.
Honda fans look forward to Earth Dreams, but it isn't lost on us that Honda is about the last to join the Direct Injection club, which seems to finally make turbos really live up to their promise of better mpg and more power (but of course there an no DI Turbos at Honda). Is their new CVT a leapfrog over dual clutch or more CO2 reduction nonsense? We will know shortly.
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MarkR
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GoFaster wrote:
... Honda is about the last to join the Direct Injection club, which seems to finally make turbos really live up to their promise of better mpg and more power (but of course there an no DI Turbos at Honda). Is their new CVT a leapfrog over dual clutch or more CO2 reduction nonsense? We will know shortly.
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As you say, we will know shortly, exciting times.
I think the key is for which market they want to target to build a new future from. As some on this board call us "Yurpeans" and we are snobby etc we are a "different" market, that is true.
I was surprised when I had a look at VW USA, they don't sell the Passat with 1.8T or 2.0T, but a old weak 2.5NA engine.
Of course, if Honda is going after the Passat 2.5NA they will most likely be better, but the "Yurpean" motoring press will bluntly rank the new ED engines last if they cannot provide the low end grunt, overtaking capacity (as is so popular to write about nowadays) with exceptional FE.
I don't doubt the FE at all, I am sure Honda will bring it, but I am afraid it will be on the expense of being able to compete with the better "Yurpean" car manufacturers regarding acceleration as expected 2012, therefore leaving Honda to sell the cars to those "who don't care or cannot afford".
BUT, all of the above is just speculation and if even proven right, it does not matter as long as someone in the World keeps buying Honda cars. The Honda management really knows how to run the business and get the shareholders great results. (btw, Marissa Mayer who just moved to Yahoo from Google said that a superb product is the most important thing, margins and balance sheet come second, if you don't have the product the book cooking won't last for long, but again, that is the software space, my home turf)
Anyway, the new NSX just looks fabolous, they have really really really scored a homerun with the design, size.
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NSXman
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notyper wrote:
I don't know. I don't think you can lump Porsche into the same category. While they added the Cayenne and the Panamera, both those cars allowed them to continue to produce their core cars like the 911. Plus they added the Cayman and Boxster which are true sports cars. While the new 991 has received some criticism about the steering and slightly longer wheelbase, it is still a top notch performer, and we haven't even seen the turbo, GT2 and GT3 yet. Porsche certainly didn't dumb those down in the last generation.
BMW now, I think is a closer comparison. They really seem to be losing the plot, especially on their M-vehicles. I think they have a lot to be worried about in the long term. If the new M3 is as hot and cold as the new M5 is, look for some heads to roll.
As for Honda, if they were smart enough to embrace the big selling models for the middle of the market like the CRV, Odyssey, etc. while keeping just a bit of Honda DNA and then spend some of the profits to produce brand enhancing and enthusiast pleasing cars like the S2000, Type-Rs, NSX, etc. true to the Honda spirit, then I don't think anyone would complain. It's ok to experiment and seek more sales, but you still need to dance with the one that brung you. Porsche is doing that (why else keep the 911 rear engined?), Honda is not.
SC
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Well said sir. Often critical of the new Honda, I don't expect Honda to sell 17 sports car. I think their cars are technically good, but with no (or very little) trace back to their roots it just becomes harder to identify with the brand. Porsche has never lost the connction to the meaning of the company, and in my opinion has expanded that company image into other markets (some call this watering down the brand, I call it Porsch-izing and making the ultimate sedan and SUV). I don't have too much of an opinion on BMW as a whole.
One glimmer of hope for the next Accord for me as far as getting in touch with the roots is the 6-speed 4-cylinder Accord coupe. With around 180hp (at least 181hp in official Honda terms...what does that mean BTW...is there an official commitee debating over whether to give is 181 or 182 hp?), you are not too far off the old Prelude numbers when you are considering the new hp measuring. If it has a satisfying exhaust noise (probably won't be Prelude satisfying), capable chassis, and decent looks it might be a connection.
The Prelude to me was the pennacle of connecting the average Joe with the racing heritage of Honda...man I wish Honda could recapture that. When I drove my Prelude I felt it was designed by someone who loved cars, not just by an intelligent person. All car companies have intelligent people...out of Japan anymore all the car lovers are surprisingly at Toyota I feel. Seen the new Lexus commercial with the IS, GS, LS, and LFA all racing up and down a road and there is engine and exhaust noise from everyone? The LF-A weaves in and out with that F1 sound...that stuff connects back to the Toyota of the 80s...and its pretty sweet to know Japan hasn't abandoned sport as a whole.
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blueSi
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CivicB18 wrote:
No, the new 5 isn't that great. I've sampled a 528i and a 535i and while they were both quick they felt more Lexus like vs BMW's. The chassis is simply too heavy and isolated which absolutely ruined the level of tactile performance which the past E60 and E39 5 Series were known for. The 528 I sampled felt like a really nice yet overweight Accord LX.
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Go sample the 550i with the M package, and get back to me.
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HondaFan1990
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I've driven the new 5 Series both the 550i and the 535i. Very nice car, but not the best things since sliced bread and cheese.
You guys all have some very good points about BMW and Porsche vs. Honda. But Honda is hopefully changing. New Accord seems to be a a good start. I really hope it is.
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NSXforever
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blueSi wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
No, the new 5 isn't that great. I've sampled a 528i and a 535i and while they were both quick they felt more Lexus like vs BMW's. The chassis is simply too heavy and isolated which absolutely ruined the level of tactile performance which the past E60 and E39 5 Series were known for. The 528 I sampled felt like a really nice yet overweight Accord LX.
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Go sample the 550i with the M package, and get back to me.
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The GS has been hailed by multiple tests to now be the sportiest vehicle in its class in F-sport trim :) The 550 M sport is good as well!
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CivicB18
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blueSi wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
No, the new 5 isn't that great. I've sampled a 528i and a 535i and while they were both quick they felt more Lexus like vs BMW's. The chassis is simply too heavy and isolated which absolutely ruined the level of tactile performance which the past E60 and E39 5 Series were known for. The 528 I sampled felt like a really nice yet overweight Accord LX.
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Go sample the 550i with the M package, and get back to me.
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Go sample E39 540i Sport, M5 or an E60 535i Sport, 550i Sport or M5 and get back to me. Those cars may not match the higher performance of the new F10 but they are much more fun to drive as the tactile performance is clearly superior. There used to be a clear connection between man and machine with the older BMW's that absent in the new 5.
~Patrick
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Fan Koni
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On a Product base I think they are on track into a ditch where Honda is currently climbing out of.
Each on their own level.
Porsche & BMW could grow & dilute into SUVs, CUVs, turbos because they could convince core customers to stay with the Brand due to high end versions.
BMW can get away with stripping the 328i Icon, can sell half as many X6 as X5, even sells the GT in numbers Acura can only dream.
Porsche's first Gen SUV was FUGLY & NVH was embarrassing - but a best seller.
Now BMW got ahead on itself on the I3/I8 EV story and have to draw back.
BMW failed on hybrids, now they are going to Toyota and have to trade their holy diesel tech.
BMW M is getting soft to target more mainstream customers like Audi S.
Porsche's new thing the mini SUV / CUV has VW/Audi written all over and on the new coupes Porsche Marketing is stressing a 7 MT to regain "sport car" fans.
Last really sounds desperate too me, like Vtec-light-bling.
At the moment they are in need to focus - maybe harder than Honda, because customers at the high price levels are less & less loyal.
All three brands are somewhat in their own ditch.
Acura is a big part of Honda's ditch.
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Hondu
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blueSi wrote:
Honda is nothing like BMW and Porsche...or any other German automaker. Right now, Germany is building the best cars in the world, hands-down. BMW, Porsche, Audi, and Mercedes-Benz are all ahead of the pack in terms of technology, luxury, power, and handling.
The only thing Honda is mastering at the moment is the ability to build point A-to-B appliances. There is no passion, anymore, and certainly no creativity when it comes to design. I'm one of the few who actually likes the design of the new Accord Sedan, but I'm not blind to the fact that Honda simply replaced the headlights with Lexus IS units and the taillights with Hyundai Genesis clones.
Oh, and the new BMW 5-Series isn't that great? You obviously haven't driven one. Get behind the wheel of a 550i, and you'll find yourself in a big sedan with a 400 hp V8 that handles like a small car. It's luxurious and high-tech with seemingly endless power. It's the kind of car Honda COULD build for Acura, but they choose not to.
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You only need three letters to describe BMW's change in course: FWD. They are going to start making and selling front wheel drive cars as Bimmers. Not if that is not blasphemy to a BMW enthusiast, I'm not sure what would be.
They could sell them as another brand (like they have with Mini), but all the reports I've read (see the BMW sites), they will also sell FWD Bimmers.
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Nick GravesX
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Hondu wrote:
blueSi wrote:
Honda is nothing like BMW and Porsche...or any other German automaker. Right now, Germany is building the best cars in the world, hands-down. BMW, Porsche, Audi, and Mercedes-Benz are all ahead of the pack in terms of technology, luxury, power, and handling.
The only thing Honda is mastering at the moment is the ability to build point A-to-B appliances. There is no passion, anymore, and certainly no creativity when it comes to design. I'm one of the few who actually likes the design of the new Accord Sedan, but I'm not blind to the fact that Honda simply replaced the headlights with Lexus IS units and the taillights with Hyundai Genesis clones.
Oh, and the new BMW 5-Series isn't that great? You obviously haven't driven one. Get behind the wheel of a 550i, and you'll find yourself in a big sedan with a 400 hp V8 that handles like a small car. It's luxurious and high-tech with seemingly endless power. It's the kind of car Honda COULD build for Acura, but they choose not to.
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You only need three letters to describe BMW's change in course: FWD. They are going to start making and selling front wheel drive cars as Bimmers. Not if that is not blasphemy to a BMW enthusiast, I'm not sure what would be.
They could sell them as another brand (like they have with Mini), but all the reports I've read (see the BMW sites), they will also sell FWD Bimmers.
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They used to make bubble cars!
The Einser would be much more sensible as a FWD, TBH. And the six-pots WILL continue as a RWD Zweier in future.
I've previously defended Honda for having little choice in the matter and the same equally applies to BMW, to be fair.
It's protection against the almighty VAG and the politiciunts, as much as a sensible design decision.
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MarkR
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Hondu wrote:
blueSi wrote:
Honda is nothing like BMW and Porsche...or any other German automaker. Right now, Germany is building the best cars in the world, hands-down. BMW, Porsche, Audi, and Mercedes-Benz are all ahead of the pack in terms of technology, luxury, power, and handling.
The only thing Honda is mastering at the moment is the ability to build point A-to-B appliances. There is no passion, anymore, and certainly no creativity when it comes to design. I'm one of the few who actually likes the design of the new Accord Sedan, but I'm not blind to the fact that Honda simply replaced the headlights with Lexus IS units and the taillights with Hyundai Genesis clones.
Oh, and the new BMW 5-Series isn't that great? You obviously haven't driven one. Get behind the wheel of a 550i, and you'll find yourself in a big sedan with a 400 hp V8 that handles like a small car. It's luxurious and high-tech with seemingly endless power. It's the kind of car Honda COULD build for Acura, but they choose not to.
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You only need three letters to describe BMW's change in course: FWD. They are going to start making and selling front wheel drive cars as Bimmers. Not if that is not blasphemy to a BMW enthusiast, I'm not sure what would be.
They could sell them as another brand (like they have with Mini), but all the reports I've read (see the BMW sites), they will also sell FWD Bimmers.
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Yes, BMW is like Honda, they will also have a small car which will be a FWD the same way as Honda nowadays have slow/economy cars but still kept their faster models like ITR,CTR etc.
This must be the only forum where I read already a couple of years ago "BMW is going FWD hahah".
The thing is, at the same time they are churning out fast models that are RWD, there is no end to that.
So I would say, on this respect BMW and Honda are very different. BMW caters to those who like to drive AND also expanding into smaller city cars. Honda is not exactly catering to those who like to drive any longer.
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Hondu
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MarkR wrote:
Hondu wrote:
blueSi wrote:
Honda is nothing like BMW and Porsche...or any other German automaker. Right now, Germany is building the best cars in the world, hands-down. BMW, Porsche, Audi, and Mercedes-Benz are all ahead of the pack in terms of technology, luxury, power, and handling.
The only thing Honda is mastering at the moment is the ability to build point A-to-B appliances. There is no passion, anymore, and certainly no creativity when it comes to design. I'm one of the few who actually likes the design of the new Accord Sedan, but I'm not blind to the fact that Honda simply replaced the headlights with Lexus IS units and the taillights with Hyundai Genesis clones.
Oh, and the new BMW 5-Series isn't that great? You obviously haven't driven one. Get behind the wheel of a 550i, and you'll find yourself in a big sedan with a 400 hp V8 that handles like a small car. It's luxurious and high-tech with seemingly endless power. It's the kind of car Honda COULD build for Acura, but they choose not to.
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You only need three letters to describe BMW's change in course: FWD. They are going to start making and selling front wheel drive cars as Bimmers. Not if that is not blasphemy to a BMW enthusiast, I'm not sure what would be.
They could sell them as another brand (like they have with Mini), but all the reports I've read (see the BMW sites), they will also sell FWD Bimmers.
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Yes, BMW is like Honda, they will also have a small car which will be a FWD the same way as Honda nowadays have slow/economy cars but still kept their faster models like ITR,CTR etc.
This must be the only forum where I read already a couple of years ago "BMW is going FWD hahah".
The thing is, at the same time they are churning out fast models that are RWD, there is no end to that.
So I would say, on this respect BMW and Honda are very different. BMW caters to those who like to drive AND also expanding into smaller city cars. Honda is not exactly catering to those who like to drive any longer.
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I understand why they are doing it (higher volume, lower cost, etc.), but it flies in the face of the BMW marketing that all they produce are "Ultimate Driving Machines" and it will dilute their brand cache.
Yes, they still make the RWD models, but they have been adding luxury/electronics, such that they are no longer the unequivocal "sport sedan king" they once were when it came to driving experience.
They are similar to Honda in that they are digressing from their DNA for success and alienating their enthusiast customer base. Time will only tell if it is successful.
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HondaFan1990
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But Honda does have some vehicles that do handle pretty well, if not a "dedicated" performance model that people clamor for. Practically all of Acura has been said to have good driving dynamics and the Fit, Accord, Odyssey, and CRV are pretty good for their class. The Civic SI isn't as sharp as before, but it's surely not bad. The CRZ is pretty nimble as well. Do people think Honda needs a "dedicated" sporty model, or the whole brand be sporty? Which would work better?
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CarPhreakD
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Chocs
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CarPhreakD wrote:
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Still, with what Acura is doing I can't really knock on BMW.
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MarkR
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HondaFan1990 wrote:
But Honda does have some vehicles that do handle pretty well, if not a "dedicated" performance model that people clamor for. Practically all of Acura has been said to have good driving dynamics and the Fit, Accord, Odyssey, and CRV are pretty good for their class. The Civic SI isn't as sharp as before, but it's surely not bad. The CRZ is pretty nimble as well. Do people think Honda needs a "dedicated" sporty model, or the whole brand be sporty? Which would work better?
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You know what, it doesn't need to be extreme mean machines that is fastest in the class, but something that is clearly more driver focused than the bread-and-butter.
It's extremely dishearting if it's true that the new Accord(US?) sport model would get bootip small spoiler, different colored stiching, some decals and rims! Sh*t, it wouldn't make the car behave any different on a windy road or be any swifter when stomping the gas pedal.
I would consider the next or current Accord(TSX) in europe at least to be a valid "sporty sedan/wagon" if it could do 0-100km/h in say 6.9sec and have stiffer suspension/sway bars to have less body motion on winding roads. Please add a purposeful steeringwheel and adjustable thigh support and we are DONE!, a sporty Accord.
BMW are doing the above to all models (and with the M-models much more, they are studidly fast, I don't need that).... maybe Honda could make sure a "Sport Accord" is actually quicker on a country road than a people carrier from Audi ;) hahah
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blueSi
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CivicB18 wrote:
Go sample E39 540i Sport, M5 or an E60 535i Sport, 550i Sport or M5 and get back to me. |
You're missing the point.
Everyone knows BMW has built great cars in the past.
Honda did, too (S2000, NSX, ITR, etc.).
The point of this thread is the state of Honda TODAY versus that of BMW and others.
So, again...go drive the F10 550i with the M package...
...because that's what is available TODAY.
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MarkR
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blueSi wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
Go sample E39 540i Sport, M5 or an E60 535i Sport, 550i Sport or M5 and get back to me. |
You're missing the point.
Everyone knows BMW has built great cars in the past.
Honda did, too (S2000, NSX, ITR, etc.).
The point of this thread is the state of Honda TODAY versus that of BMW and others.
So, again...go drive the F10 550i with the M package...
...because that's what is available TODAY.
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Who is saying BMW is not building great sport cars today? They have more M-models than ever and they have never been as fast as today...
YES, they are not barebones tincan boxes like BMWs from the 90s, but that's the way of the whole car industry. People expect less road noise.
Of course lighter cars are better in the corners, the M3 from the 90s is very nice on winding roads etc but they are still building alot of fast sporty cars compared to Honda who has NONE today.
Anyway, it doesn't make Honda a bad company, they are both financially strong and well run companies.
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HCM_Sniper
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Ha ha ha ha! Your friend is on drugs.
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HCM_Sniper
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Ha ha ha ha! Your friend is on drugs.
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