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P54
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Has Honda responded to all the cries about going back to its roots?
Take a look at this 1977 car of the year Honda Accord.
 
Let's see:
"First, that the Accord is a remarkable piece of equipment doesn't even seem arguable.......It wouldn't necessarily have had to be so - the Accord could have turned out like so many other mindlessly designed cheapo cars with pretty faces but terrible manners. But in fact, the Accord is a fine compromise between a car that fills basic transportation needs at low costs and one that can give its driver some proper sensual feedback. It's so stable and controllable at speed that it begs to be driven in a sporty fashion, but even with the pedal to the metal it provides exceptional fuel economy.
....But somehow the Accord has a unity of concept and execution that is just not to be found in other cars in this price range."
And remember the Accord accomplished all this with 4 wheel independent McPherson suspension. The current Accord some call "bloated" but the 2013 is 3" shorter with more interior room and trunk space. Sounds like Honda listens to you. Better power band, better fuel economy, more quiet, more features, better visibility, more safety etc. New suspension??? What is Honda doing? Must be bad even though the type and layout is unknown. Maybe Honda did the impossible again; what if the new suspension is triple wishbone instead of double? You can't have it all, a car for the masses is a compromise between many factors to suit different peoples wants and needs. Let's wait and see how it turns out.
Here is what Berkman says about the new Accord, (you think he knows more about it than people at TOV?)
"This new Accord will excel in all areas. It will be very fun-to-drive and offer great fuel economy. It will have a comfortable cabin with a very quiet ride. With sophisticated styling and outstanding visibility and safety technologies, and the best quality and reliability in the business. In short, it's the right car to mark 30 years of building Accord in America."
Sounds like they are going back to their roots; excel in all areas, from power train to chassis, interior, roominess, visibility , safety and fuel economy. The only thing lacking in going back to its roots is the $4000 price.
Why listen to all the negatives from people who haven't even seen or tried it. Be more positive till you know more. After the fact, then you can feel free to express your concern.
Negativism based on suspicion and perceptions alone is pretty much an outgrowth of your own ego.
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THX17201
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P54 wrote:
Here is what Berkman says about the new Accord, (you think he knows more about it than people at TOV?)
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LOL so do you believe everything the company says? They also said the Crosstour, ZDX, ILX and CRZ are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace!
This is a really lame attempt at deflection...
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P54
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THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
Here is what Berkman says about the new Accord, (you think he knows more about it than people at TOV?)
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LOL so do you believe everything the company says? They also said the Crosstour, ZDX, ILX and CRZ are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace!
This is a really lame attempt at deflection...
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Did they really say that? Got any links?
I think I can trust Berkman more than people who don't know how it is built or never tried it. After all he was the man behind the TL that everybody loved.
Funny how so many here believe the Ford and Hyundai hype, however trashes a new Honda before they have even tried it.
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THX17201
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P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
Here is what Berkman says about the new Accord, (you think he knows more about it than people at TOV?)
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LOL so do you believe everything the company says? They also said the Crosstour, ZDX, ILX and CRZ are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace!
This is a really lame attempt at deflection...
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Did they really say that? Got any links?
I think I can trust Berkman more than people who don't know how it is built or never tried it. After all he was the man behind the TL that everybody loved.
Funny how so many here believe the Ford and Hyundai hype, however trashes a new Honda before they have even tried it.
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I don't believe the hype of any company. And certainly Honda has not produced any cars of late that would make me believe the hype of Berkman, and yes his TL was awesome!
I'm not wasting my time looking for links when we all know none of those cars have met their sales goals. If you want to refute my statement feel free to post links showing they have met their sales goals.
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ClementZ
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THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
Here is what Berkman says about the new Accord, (you think he knows more about it than people at TOV?)
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LOL so do you believe everything the company says? They also said the Crosstour, ZDX, ILX and CRZ are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace!
This is a really lame attempt at deflection...
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Did they really say that? Got any links?
I think I can trust Berkman more than people who don't know how it is built or never tried it. After all he was the man behind the TL that everybody loved.
Funny how so many here believe the Ford and Hyundai hype, however trashes a new Honda before they have even tried it.
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I don't believe the hype of any company. And certainly Honda has not produced any cars of late that would make me believe the hype of Berkman, and yes his TL was awesome!
I'm not wasting my time looking for links when we all know none of those cars have met their sales goals. If you want to refute my statement feel free to post links showing they have met their sales goals.
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He doesn't have to refute you exactly, because you have yet to show anything that quotes a Honda executive saying that the Crosstour/ZDZ/ILX/CRZ are the greatest cars ever and that they will sell at record pace.
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P54
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THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
Here is what Berkman says about the new Accord, (you think he knows more about it than people at TOV?)
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LOL so do you believe everything the company says? They also said the Crosstour, ZDX, ILX and CRZ are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace!
This is a really lame attempt at deflection...
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Did they really say that? Got any links?
I think I can trust Berkman more than people who don't know how it is built or never tried it. After all he was the man behind the TL that everybody loved.
Funny how so many here believe the Ford and Hyundai hype, however trashes a new Honda before they have even tried it.
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I don't believe the hype of any company. And certainly Honda has not produced any cars of late that would make me believe the hype of Berkman, and yes his TL was awesome!
I'm not wasting my time looking for links when we all know none of those cars have met their sales goals. If you want to refute my statement feel free to post links showing they have met their sales goals.
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There is a vast difference between meeting sales goals and you stating that Honda claimed the cars you mentioned " are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace! '
To tell me to find links that do not exist is a lame way of backing off from you putting your own words into the mouth of Honda.
Tells me you just exaggerated and told a lie.
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THX17201
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P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
Here is what Berkman says about the new Accord, (you think he knows more about it than people at TOV?)
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LOL so do you believe everything the company says? They also said the Crosstour, ZDX, ILX and CRZ are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace!
This is a really lame attempt at deflection...
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Did they really say that? Got any links?
I think I can trust Berkman more than people who don't know how it is built or never tried it. After all he was the man behind the TL that everybody loved.
Funny how so many here believe the Ford and Hyundai hype, however trashes a new Honda before they have even tried it.
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I don't believe the hype of any company. And certainly Honda has not produced any cars of late that would make me believe the hype of Berkman, and yes his TL was awesome!
I'm not wasting my time looking for links when we all know none of those cars have met their sales goals. If you want to refute my statement feel free to post links showing they have met their sales goals.
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There is a vast difference between meeting sales goals and you stating that Honda claimed the cars you mentioned " are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace! '
To tell me to find links that do not exist is a lame way of backing off from you putting your own words into the mouth of Honda.
Tells me you just exaggerated and told a lie.
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Yes I exaggerated, and I never quoted anyone from Honda. If you couldn't tell I was being somewhat facetious you're taking this forum way too seriously. I was just trying to demonstrate that just because a Honda executive says something doesn't make it true...
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P54
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THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
Here is what Berkman says about the new Accord, (you think he knows more about it than people at TOV?)
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LOL so do you believe everything the company says? They also said the Crosstour, ZDX, ILX and CRZ are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace!
This is a really lame attempt at deflection...
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Did they really say that? Got any links?
I think I can trust Berkman more than people who don't know how it is built or never tried it. After all he was the man behind the TL that everybody loved.
Funny how so many here believe the Ford and Hyundai hype, however trashes a new Honda before they have even tried it.
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I don't believe the hype of any company. And certainly Honda has not produced any cars of late that would make me believe the hype of Berkman, and yes his TL was awesome!
I'm not wasting my time looking for links when we all know none of those cars have met their sales goals. If you want to refute my statement feel free to post links showing they have met their sales goals.
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There is a vast difference between meeting sales goals and you stating that Honda claimed the cars you mentioned " are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace! '
To tell me to find links that do not exist is a lame way of backing off from you putting your own words into the mouth of Honda.
Tells me you just exaggerated and told a lie.
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Yes I exaggerated, and I never quoted anyone from Honda. If you couldn't tell I was being somewhat facetious you're taking this forum way too seriously. I was just trying to demonstrate that just because a Honda executive says something doesn't make it true...
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So you liked the TL that the Honda executive developed but do not trust his word on the Accord? Should I trust the negative comments here about the Accord's suspension even though nobody knows what it is like or have tried it? So it goes both ways, just because a TOV member say something it does not have to be true? Remember that a lot of people might search internet forums for "insight" on the car they think about buying and some of the media look to TOV for "inside information" on Honda, which they further spread.
If this is a Honda forum it should be a place for information not spreading negative propaganda based on perception or non factual info. All kinds of nitpicking on a new cars suspension before the facts are in or anybody have tested the car is even worse than CR.
So thank you for being honest and admitting to your exaggeration. I guess we are in the same boat, I was just trying to demonstrate that just because you read something on TOV it does not have to be true and that until proven wrong I take the statement from Berkman to be closer to the truth than one who has no experience with the new car.
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THX17201
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P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
Here is what Berkman says about the new Accord, (you think he knows more about it than people at TOV?)
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LOL so do you believe everything the company says? They also said the Crosstour, ZDX, ILX and CRZ are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace!
This is a really lame attempt at deflection...
|
Did they really say that? Got any links?
I think I can trust Berkman more than people who don't know how it is built or never tried it. After all he was the man behind the TL that everybody loved.
Funny how so many here believe the Ford and Hyundai hype, however trashes a new Honda before they have even tried it.
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I don't believe the hype of any company. And certainly Honda has not produced any cars of late that would make me believe the hype of Berkman, and yes his TL was awesome!
I'm not wasting my time looking for links when we all know none of those cars have met their sales goals. If you want to refute my statement feel free to post links showing they have met their sales goals.
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There is a vast difference between meeting sales goals and you stating that Honda claimed the cars you mentioned " are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace! '
To tell me to find links that do not exist is a lame way of backing off from you putting your own words into the mouth of Honda.
Tells me you just exaggerated and told a lie.
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Yes I exaggerated, and I never quoted anyone from Honda. If you couldn't tell I was being somewhat facetious you're taking this forum way too seriously. I was just trying to demonstrate that just because a Honda executive says something doesn't make it true...
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So you liked the TL that the Honda executive developed but do not trust his word on the Accord? Should I trust the negative comments here about the Accord's suspension even though nobody knows what it is like or have tried it? So it goes both ways, just because a TOV member say something it does not have to be true? Remember that a lot of people might search internet forums for "insight" on the car they think about buying and some of the media look to TOV for "inside information" on Honda, which they further spread.
If this is a Honda forum it should be a place for information not spreading negative propaganda based on perception or non factual info. All kinds of nitpicking on a new cars suspension before the facts are in or anybody have tested the car is even worse than CR.
So thank you for being honest and admitting to your exaggeration. I guess we are in the same boat, I was just trying to demonstrate that just because you read something on TOV it does not have to be true and that until proven wrong I take the statement from Berkman to be closer to the truth than one who has no experience with the new car.
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I don't see where anyone has told you to trust the negative comments, I'm not really sure what you're debating. Nobody is saying because it was posted TOV it has to be true either. It's like you're arguing against things that don't exist.
How much influence did Berkman have on this car? Maybe he had a lot, maybe he didn't. Either way I don't think he's going to come out publicly stating this Accord is not as good as Honda's past efforts it's just ok...
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owequitit
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P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
Here is what Berkman says about the new Accord, (you think he knows more about it than people at TOV?)
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LOL so do you believe everything the company says? They also said the Crosstour, ZDX, ILX and CRZ are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace!
This is a really lame attempt at deflection...
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Did they really say that? Got any links?
I think I can trust Berkman more than people who don't know how it is built or never tried it. After all he was the man behind the TL that everybody loved.
Funny how so many here believe the Ford and Hyundai hype, however trashes a new Honda before they have even tried it.
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I don't believe the hype of any company. And certainly Honda has not produced any cars of late that would make me believe the hype of Berkman, and yes his TL was awesome!
I'm not wasting my time looking for links when we all know none of those cars have met their sales goals. If you want to refute my statement feel free to post links showing they have met their sales goals.
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There is a vast difference between meeting sales goals and you stating that Honda claimed the cars you mentioned " are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace! '
To tell me to find links that do not exist is a lame way of backing off from you putting your own words into the mouth of Honda.
Tells me you just exaggerated and told a lie.
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Honda claimed ILX sales goals of 40,000 a year. At the current pace, they will be lucky to sell just over 1/4 the number. Of course, many of us "TOV posters" called that one as well, and yet you had post after post and thread after thread of telling us to wait and see. Who is eating crow now? That is what I thought.
They also claimed 20K Crosstour sales. That hasn't happened either.
The ZDX has also not met sales expectations.
Let's be perfectly to the point here. Honda wouldn't set targets for these products if they didn't think they could meet them. So to pretend that a product failing to meet its INTERNAL sales goals is no big deal is just more of your blind denial of reality kicking in. Also, I remind you that the real world is the only and final test of the car. When they have a list of products NOT meeting sales goals that is longer than the list of products that IS meeting sales goals, they are wasting a ton of money and doing something wrong. Period.
As for you other assertions, you can believe whatever propaganda you choose to. The fact is that I know how suspensions work, I know what the advantages are, what the limitations are and how Honda is going to have to compromise to make them work on the new car. So you can continue to assert what you want, but Honda reduced the likelihood of meeting the performance of their own product by doing what they have done. Justify it, rationalize it, deny it. I don't really give a shit. We have bought 8 Accords, and if this car can't live up to the dynamic substance of the old ones, we will probably be seriously considering another brand. Doesn't mean we won't buy a Honda, it simply means that we are more likely not to buy one. Simple as that. 15 years ago, it was the only car we would consider, so to pretend that their product perception isn't slipping is simply more denial on your part.
Also, if you are going to make snide comments about TOV posters not knowing what they are talking about (I can assure you I know more than you do), you better have the balls to at least call it out.
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Power Of Dreams
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This is a ridiculous post. Why don't we do away with catalytic converters while we're at it? And bring back rusting sheetmetal?
The best Accords ever made had DWB suspensions.
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FiSH-Chan
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Power Of Dreams wrote:
This is a ridiculous post. Why don't we do away with catalytic converters while we're at it? And bring back rusting sheetmetal?
The best Accords ever made had DWB suspensions. |
I don't see it as ridiculous at all. Before Honda came out with CVCC they had front FWD car performing like RWD and 1300cc engine producing 7300rpm and 116hp. The Civic and Accord look quite boring compared to that can do but they did overengineer the car become super reliable and there is the CVCC and the Accord has all the little detail like the space age lights things and the digital clock when eveyrone still using analog clock. It is those extra things that are considered not really needed, but it is one of those things the Accord feature at the time for the price. And then also engineer them to be super reliable.. I know, I had of those early 80s Accord and it just ran and ran even if it has problems and I am to poor to fix it, it still ran. Probably for many people too.
I am one of those waiting for what Honda will come up with and waiting to see how it goes. It is probably still early to see what they come up with though, i mean we have been hearing about the Earth Dream (bad name) but we haven't even seen one yet except on the JDM mini cars.
BTW there is one 76-79 Accord sedan parked near where I stay I saw a few months back in SUPER MINT CONDITION. It is rare to see people actually taking care of their car like that especially if it is 'just' an Accord.
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DrWhiner
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I'm a Juker ....
only if I'm caught red handed. LOL.
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P54
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What does the 1977 Accord have to do with the 2013 Accord? Shall we bring back old technology and rusty metal one ask. NO!
Can't you see the point, the 1977 Accord won the car of the year title because of this:
"First, that the Accord is a remarkable piece of equipment doesn't even seem arguable.......It wouldn't necessarily have had to be so - the Accord could have turned out like so many other mindlessly designed cheapo cars with pretty faces but terrible manners. But in fact, the Accord is a fine compromise between a car that fills basic transportation needs at low costs and one that can give its driver some proper sensual feedback.It's so stable and controllable at speed that it begs to be driven in a sporty fashion, but even with the pedal to the metal it provides exceptional fuel economy.
Now compare this with what Berkman said:
"This new Accord will excel in all areas. It will be very fun-to-drive and offer great fuel economy. It will have a comfortable cabin with a very quiet ride. With sophisticated styling and outstanding visibility and safety technologies, and the best quality and reliability in the business. In short, it's the right car to mark 30 years of building Accord in America."
Read the text from the RT magazine why the chose the Accord and see if you do not find similarities with the 2013 model. Seems like they went back to their roots and reinvented what the Accord was all about; a remarkable piece of equipment, fun to drive, fuel efficient, balanced and harmonious, well equipped and pretty much the state of the art in its own time. Is that not going back to its roots?
It is the basic concept we are talking about, not bringing back the car that was but execute the new car with the same goals as the first one.
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ru4real
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The original post merely pointed out that the Accord has not always had DWB suspension to be excellent. I am old enough to remember this Accord was the car that finally put Honda on the public's car buying map, at the time, I remembered hearing from customers at my dad's business complaining having to be put on waiting lists to buy this car. One woman had to wait for 8 months. And at the time, 4k was quite a bit of money too. One of my friends finally got one and despite all the protests from the current enthusiasts in this forum, it was no hot rod by any means, but rather a really well built little car that was stable and fun to drive, economical and reliable, for me any way, that hasn't really changed for Honda. I now drive an Odyssey and the same traits are still there, it is just that the other car makers (mostly domestic) finally are putting out much improved cars than they used to make.
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P54
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And Honda was the driving force that caused the other brands to improve their quality.
Honda was looked upon and copied all the way from manufacturing to the complete product. From the common car to the sports car.
And now they do the same with jets, from nothing to state of the art. Which will bring about improvements from the competitors.
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ru4real
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Couldn't agree more, anything from the subcompacts to the luxuries to the exotics, cars in general would not have the build quality and reliability they do now without Honda, and Toyota setting the standards.
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garoto628
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THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
P54 wrote:
Here is what Berkman says about the new Accord, (you think he knows more about it than people at TOV?)
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LOL so do you believe everything the company says? They also said the Crosstour, ZDX, ILX and CRZ are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace!
This is a really lame attempt at deflection...
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Did they really say that? Got any links?
I think I can trust Berkman more than people who don't know how it is built or never tried it. After all he was the man behind the TL that everybody loved.
Funny how so many here believe the Ford and Hyundai hype, however trashes a new Honda before they have even tried it.
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I don't believe the hype of any company. And certainly Honda has not produced any cars of late that would make me believe the hype of Berkman, and yes his TL was awesome!
I'm not wasting my time looking for links when we all know none of those cars have met their sales goals. If you want to refute my statement feel free to post links showing they have met their sales goals.
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There is a vast difference between meeting sales goals and you stating that Honda claimed the cars you mentioned " are the greatest cars every and will sell at record pace! '
To tell me to find links that do not exist is a lame way of backing off from you putting your own words into the mouth of Honda.
Tells me you just exaggerated and told a lie.
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Yes I exaggerated, and I never quoted anyone from Honda. If you couldn't tell I was being somewhat facetious you're taking this forum way too seriously. I was just trying to demonstrate that just because a Honda executive says something doesn't make it true...
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But, you are condraticting yourself on the same paragraph.
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notyper
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Oh, you know how it drives now? This from the guy criticizing those concerned about the loss of DWB by telling them they don't even know how it handles yet?
You swallow so much marketing pap it must be coming out of your ears.
SC
P54 wrote:
Read the text from the RT magazine why the chose the Accord and see if you do not find similarities with the 2013 model. Seems like they went back to their roots and reinvented what the Accord was all about; a remarkable piece of equipment, fun to drive, fuel efficient, balanced and harmonious, well equipped and pretty much the state of the art in its own time. Is that not going back to its roots?
It is the basic concept we are talking about, not bringing back the car that was but execute the new car with the same goals as the first one.
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P54
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notyper wrote:
Oh, you know how it drives now? This from the guy criticizing those concerned about the loss of DWB by telling them they don't even know how it handles yet?
You swallow so much marketing pap it must be coming out of your ears.
SC
P54 wrote:
Read the text from the RT magazine why the chose the Accord and see if you do not find similarities with the 2013 model. Seems like they went back to their roots and reinvented what the Accord was all about; a remarkable piece of equipment, fun to drive, fuel efficient, balanced and harmonious, well equipped and pretty much the state of the art in its own time. Is that not going back to its roots?
It is the basic concept we are talking about, not bringing back the car that was but execute the new car with the same goals as the first one.
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We'll soon find out it the statements from Honda executives, including Berkman, was just smoke or for real. At least what you call marketing pap was based on someone actually driving the product instead of an opinion based on perception and a perceived product.
-edited by notyper
I'm not sure if you're just stupid or completely dishonest. Tell you what, why don't you confine yourself to the political lounge for a day or two lest I feel like drop kicking your tail out of here.
Last edited by notyper on 08-20-2012 12:48
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gogzy
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i have high expectation from Honda. shopping for car was easy for me in the past, i hope it can continue that way. as for how 1977 Accord drives without DWB.... how heavy was the 1977 Accord? how heavy was each corner? how much power does it have vs current target weight? did Honda went to DWS on later Accord because the car was gaining weight, and in order to maintain it's known handling state a DWS have to be implemented - i think likely given Honda's old thinking, instead of easy route to wider rubber like everyone else, they put DWB. i really hope, expect Honda to surprise me again (good way of course)!
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FiSH-Chan
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gogzy wrote:
i have high expectation from Honda. shopping for car was easy for me in the past, i hope it can continue that way. as for how 1977 Accord drives without DWB.... how heavy was the 1977 Accord? how heavy was each corner? how much power does it have vs current target weight? did Honda went to DWS on later Accord because the car was gaining weight, and in order to maintain it's known handling state a DWS have to be implemented - i think likely given Honda's old thinking, instead of easy route to wider rubber like everyone else, they put DWB. i really hope, expect Honda to surprise me again (good way of course)! |
I can't say about the '77, but my '84 had front end that feels really really heavy (and this was with that lighteight front subframe). I don't know the weight distribution of that but it feels like the engine weights alot... Also didn't Honda switch to DBW because it was the time when the economy was favorable and Honda was the only one putting well engineered cars and they had good years with F1 and so it was possible to put it in and they put it in and everybody else was not putting much effort into their products?
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ru4real
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The 80's were certainly the most prosperous time in Japan's history before the eventual recession in the 90's. The DWS was something Honda was quite proud of and was marketed as such. However, I distinctly remembered several car magazines, though impressed with the sophisticated set up in the Accord and later the Civic, most did criticize that the handling was not as good as it could have been, particularly the mediocre road holding.
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P54
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P54 wrote:
notyper wrote:
Oh, you know how it drives now? This from the guy criticizing those concerned about the loss of DWB by telling them they don't even know how it handles yet?
You swallow so much marketing pap it must be coming out of your ears.
SC
P54 wrote:
Read the text from the RT magazine why the chose the Accord and see if you do not find similarities with the 2013 model. Seems like they went back to their roots and reinvented what the Accord was all about; a remarkable piece of equipment, fun to drive, fuel efficient, balanced and harmonious, well equipped and pretty much the state of the art in its own time. Is that not going back to its roots?
It is the basic concept we are talking about, not bringing back the car that was but execute the new car with the same goals as the first one.
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We'll soon find out it the statements from Honda executives, including Berkman, was just smoke or for real. At least what you call marketing pap was based on someone actually driving the product instead of an opinion based on perception and a perceived product.
-edited by notyper
I'm not sure if you're just stupid or completely dishonest. Tell you what, why don't you confine yourself to the political lounge for a day or two lest I feel like drop kicking your tail out of here.
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What prompted your reaction, picture or text? Or what did I say that you read "stupid or completely dishonest"??
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CR-V9
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I really don't know this technical, engineering stuff. I just remember reading a Honda story. I believe every Honda story I read so if what it is.
Honda engineer said once that stiffness, integrity of the body is the most important part of suspention when he was asked about hardness of the suspention of sporty cars. It tends to get hard sprunged when the body is loose because the suspensin can't do their jobs when the body twists and bends. But now the body is getting stiffer it is getting better for the suspensions to do their jobs.
I'd think it's not a good idea to compare today's cars to cars 13, 19, 24 years ago. Many things have changed since then, I'd guess.
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Ultima
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I think it's fair to say that, with Honda's recent product offerings (like those mentioned above), the burden is on THEM to prove otherwise and consumer (an enthusiast) have every right to be less-than-optimistic about anything they do/say these days.
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TurkMan71
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Ultima wrote:
I think it's fair to say that, with Honda's recent product offerings (like those mentioned above), the burden is on THEM to prove otherwise and consumer (an enthusiast) have every right to be less-than-optimistic about anything they do/say these days.
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+1
BINGO!
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