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CarPhreakD
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
Just look at how the cars move on the track, the Civic looks a bit sloppy as it has a tremendous amount of body roll while the BRZ stay pretty flat through all transitions. Of course the Civic would be a better daily driver but the BRZ is way more connected, more tactile and more of an engaging drive. I'll take the BRZ hands down.
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Yeah, why is that? I would think the HFP kit made it less body roll but that sure didn't happen.
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The HFP kit was made so that folks "feel" that they are getting a stiffer suspension setup. In reality, in the 8th gen when you push the car, it feels way overly sprung with not enough damping rebound, and there's still enormous amounts of body roll. They also needed a larger rear anti-roll bar.
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JeffX
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CarPhreakD wrote:
FiSH-Chan wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
Just look at how the cars move on the track, the Civic looks a bit sloppy as it has a tremendous amount of body roll while the BRZ stay pretty flat through all transitions. Of course the Civic would be a better daily driver but the BRZ is way more connected, more tactile and more of an engaging drive. I'll take the BRZ hands down.
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Yeah, why is that? I would think the HFP kit made it less body roll but that sure didn't happen.
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The HFP kit was made so that folks "feel" that they are getting a stiffer suspension setup. In reality, in the 8th gen when you push the car, it feels way overly sprung with not enough damping rebound, and there's still enormous amounts of body roll. They also needed a larger rear anti-roll bar.
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the mugen damper/spring set is the best i've sampled on an 8th gen. Not nearly as "extreme" as the Progressive coilovers we had on our project Si, but the Mugen set offers an amazingly good ride (better than stock, actually, IMHO) while stiffening the damping and spring rates almost perfectly for just about any canyon road attacks.
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Dren
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That Toyobaru has macstruts up front.
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JeffX
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Dren wrote:
That Toyobaru has macstruts up front.
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and the half-shafts are on the rear axle. HUGE difference.
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CarPhreakD
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Jeff wrote:
Dren wrote:
That Toyobaru has macstruts up front.
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and the half-shafts are on the rear axle. HUGE difference.
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Exactly. That, plus the weight distribution (near 50/50) means that all 4 tires are being put to better use. You can bet that the Si would lose the fronts after a couple of laps- and again, a good setup would help mitigate this.
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Grace141
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So a strut-type front suspension is cool as long as the front wheels aren't driven? I'm thinking of the Germans again.
Also, do folks here assume the 9th gen Civic Si would handle measureably better, as in better slalom and skidpad results, if the suspension was stiffened up sharply? A suspension does its job only when it's allowed to work as designed - Honda's cool passive suspension designs over the years are pretty much worthless without body roll. Is everyone willing to give up some toe and camber control for a stiffer ride and significantly more tire wear? The FR-S/BRZ handles better because its COG is so much lower than the Civic's, not because of specific tires or suspension rates, and it's entirely possible for the FR-S/BRZ to have softer spring rates and roll bars than the Civic but still roll less.
Perhaps Subaru is putting Prius tires on the BRZ so as to get a decent lifespan from them? I'm thinking of the Yokohama rear tire wear problems with the early NSX. Subaru could put those Dunlops on the BRZ if they wanted. Don't forget that while Acura used Michelin's XGTV tires on the Integra through the '90s BMW put Michelin's MXV3 touring tire on the 3-series and yet it still handled better. Quite a bit better actually.
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FiSH-Chan
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Grace141 wrote:
Also, do folks here assume the 9th gen Civic Si would handle measureably better, as in better slalom and skidpad results, if the suspension was stiffened up sharply? A suspension does its job only when it's allowed to work as designed - Honda's cool passive suspension designs over the years are pretty much worthless without body roll. |
I've seen how a Civic Type R moves (and you can watch it on youtube also), so ya that video shows the Civic Si making a bit more movment then I would expect.
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garoto628
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
Also, do folks here assume the 9th gen Civic Si would handle measureably better, as in better slalom and skidpad results, if the suspension was stiffened up sharply? A suspension does its job only when it's allowed to work as designed - Honda's cool passive suspension designs over the years are pretty much worthless without body roll. |
I've seen how a Civic Type R moves (and you can watch it on youtube also), so ya that video shows the Civic Si making a bit more movment then I would expect.
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There's a reason for that, the civic Type-R is an 8th gen. You can't compare any 9th gen civic to any 8th gen civic in any area other than interior technology and come out winning, let alone the toned down "Si" to a fully blown "Type R
. It has been established in several other threads that the Si shows excessive body roll in high performance driving. The fact that it still beat the BRZ with all that body roll is impressive.
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FiSH-Chan
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garoto628 wrote:
There's a reason for that, the civic Type-R is an 8th gen. You can't compare any 9th gen civic to any 8th gen civic in any area other than interior technology and come out winning, let alone the toned down "Si" to a fully blown "Type R
. It has been established in several other threads that the Si shows excessive body roll in high performance driving. The fact that it still beat the BRZ with all that body roll is impressive.
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Not really, I was kind of expecting the HFP kit to have anti roll bar and stuff along with suspension that at least will not roll as much as a normal Si in roll, for example. So can't blame me for expecting it to look at least half as that of Type R... also since I don't have understanding any of the HFP OR the Si.
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DrWhiner
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It was about FUN from the start, so the smooth transitions into a RWD slide due to the lower grip limits are part of the point of this car. "Better" tires might make such hooliganism less accessible to most drivers, ...
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It's supposed to be THAt way.... but what happens in real life when, SOME, fail to understand what they should do ONLY on closed circuit track, NOT on pubvlic roads.
| I was on my way to lunch with a coworker. There's a right turn I've taken a million times over the past 4 years that's very wide and has huge visibility, and I would sometimes get on the gas a little in my B16-swapped CRX through the turn. I never went over the speed limit, and I only did it if there was absolutely no one else around. Being a FWD, the front tires would break free a little and it would make the turn a bit more fun. Well, before leaving work I decided it would be a good idea to turn off the traction control and try something similar in the FR-S. [...] |
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DCR
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The HFP would lose to an upgraded tire BRZ, period. Also, run these same cars 10 times back to back and see if that 0.1 holds up every time.
This is a stupid comparison, just like when they ran the MS3 against an Si.
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DCR
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DrWhiner wrote:
It was about FUN from the start, so the smooth transitions into a RWD slide due to the lower grip limits are part of the point of this car. "Better" tires might make such hooliganism less accessible to most drivers, ...
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It's supposed to be THAt way.... but what happens in real life when, SOME, fail to understand what they should do ONLY on closed circuit track, NOT on pubvlic roads.
| I was on my way to lunch with a coworker. There's a right turn I've taken a million times over the past 4 years that's very wide and has huge visibility, and I would sometimes get on the gas a little in my B16-swapped CRX through the turn. I never went over the speed limit, and I only did it if there was absolutely no one else around. Being a FWD, the front tires would break free a little and it would make the turn a bit more fun. Well, before leaving work I decided it would be a good idea to turn off the traction control and try something similar in the FR-S. [...] |
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That is one driver, all safety assist off, in an anecdotal scenario, so don't pull the same shit you always do.
I have driven seven of these cars, both of BRZ and FR-S ilk, and I can assure you that you won't bust the ass loose and crash into a pole unless you are stupid.
I am sure no Si drivers have crashed in this manner.
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FiSH-Chan
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DCR wrote:
That is one driver, all safety assist off, in an anecdotal scenario, so don't pull the same shit you always do.
I have driven seven of these cars, both of BRZ and FR-S ilk, and I can assure you that you won't bust the ass loose and crash into a pole unless you are stupid.
I am sure no Si drivers have crashed in this manner. |
Ya, it is a driver problem. In my town people buy 4WD trucks (or sometimes 2WD) and they think because of that they can grip the road in all conditions and these vehicles are quite popular. So once I counted 4 pickups (2 hilux 1 mistsubishi and 1 I can't figure what model) wrap around hugging a tree on a rainy day because they don't understand 4WD or RWD. And I still see many going super fast on rainy days like they are invincible.
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DrWhiner
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DCR wrote:
I have driven seven of these cars, both of BRZ and FR-S ilk, and I can assure you that you won't bust the ass loose and crash into a pole unless you are stupid.
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I beg to know for a combined total of how many hours, or miles?
Too bad I have seen more than a couple of instances than I want where one overestimated his (mostly) ability!
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CarPhreakD
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Grace141 wrote:
So a strut-type front suspension is cool as long as the front wheels aren't driven? I'm thinking of the Germans again.
Also, do folks here assume the 9th gen Civic Si would handle measureably better, as in better slalom and skidpad results, if the suspension was stiffened up sharply? A suspension does its job only when it's allowed to work as designed - Honda's cool passive suspension designs over the years are pretty much worthless without body roll. Is everyone willing to give up some toe and camber control for a stiffer ride and significantly more tire wear? The FR-S/BRZ handles better because its COG is so much lower than the Civic's, not because of specific tires or suspension rates, and it's entirely possible for the FR-S/BRZ to have softer spring rates and roll bars than the Civic but still roll less.
Perhaps Subaru is putting Prius tires on the BRZ so as to get a decent lifespan from them? I'm thinking of the Yokohama rear tire wear problems with the early NSX. Subaru could put those Dunlops on the BRZ if they wanted. Don't forget that while Acura used Michelin's XGTV tires on the Integra through the '90s BMW put Michelin's MXV3 touring tire on the 3-series and yet it still handled better. Quite a bit better actually.
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? The idea isn't stiffer suspension, the idea is better suspension movement and therefore better utilization of tires (the #1 concern in going fast is how to best use your tires for braking and cornering). On a track, you should have increased tire life rather than a significant decrease. In this case the Civic has front macstruts, which have initial non-existent (progressing into terrible positive) camber as the car corners. How do you prevent this?
1) Less suspension movement side to side. You want SOME, but not large amounts.
2) Alignment settings for more initial camber
Even double wishbone/multilink type suspensions can't tolerate large movements because of toe and bump control; their main advantage over the macstrut of course is that you can lessen the ride/handling compromise because of the ability to dial in camber curves, better geometry like the king pin inclination/steering axis relationship and because of the more precise wheel control from the smaller scrub radius.
This is of course, assuming that your tire is sensitive to camber in the first place, which involves tire modelling. Something else altogether.
"The FR-S/BRZ handles better because its COG is so much lower than the Civic's, not because of specific tires or suspension rates, and it's entirely possible for the FR-S/BRZ to have softer spring rates and roll bars than the Civic but still roll less."
Exactly. The CoG of the Toyobaru allows them to run softer suspension simply because they don't have the same roll moment that a regular car has. The car can also get away with not having an 'advanced' suspension setup, although up to a certain limit of course.
One thing I will say is that a properly setup Civic can be blindingly fast, much faster than the FR-S. It has its inherent disadvantages (as with all production cars...), but you can get around them.
FiSH-Chan wrote:
garoto628 wrote:
There's a reason for that, the civic Type-R is an 8th gen. You can't compare any 9th gen civic to any 8th gen civic in any area other than interior technology and come out winning, let alone the toned down "Si" to a fully blown "Type R
. It has been established in several other threads that the Si shows excessive body roll in high performance driving. The fact that it still beat the BRZ with all that body roll is impressive.
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Not really, I was kind of expecting the HFP kit to have anti roll bar and stuff along with suspension that at least will not roll as much as a normal Si in roll, for example. So can't blame me for expecting it to look at least half as that of Type R... also since I don't have understanding any of the HFP OR the Si.
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The HFP kit is a direct swap springs and shocks. No antiroll bars or anything... though technically if you were "hardcore" road racing, you wouldn't really want an anti-roll bar as anything except a very light "trim" device.
And DrWhiner, that guy is obviously a moron.
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DCR
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CarPhreakD wrote:
And DrWhiner, that guy is obviously a moron.
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CarPhreakD wrote:
And DrWhiner, that guy is obviously a moron.
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CarPhreakD wrote:
And DrWhiner, that guy is obviously a moron.
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CarPhreakD wrote:
And DrWhiner, that guy is obviously a moron.
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CarPhreakD wrote:
And DrWhiner, that guy is obviously a moron.
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CarPhreakD wrote:
And DrWhiner, that guy is obviously a moron.
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LOL
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Grace141
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CarPhreakD, I agree with you here 100%. The thing that bothers me when people ask about stiffening any suspension is whether it's actually an improvement of any kind. Every suspension design is a compromise for the needs of the vehicle and the Civic needs some body roll so as to provide a ride quality appropriate for the car in general. It's my understanding the Si simply uses the same design as the DX/LX/EX but with a different spec. The fact that is lost here by many is that if the BRZ had tires similar to those on the Civic it would have won this comparo but all that means is the Civic Si is still a fantastic road car for the money. The BRZ is a dedicated sports GT designed for fun road driving with a passenger whereas the Civic is a $16,000 US economy coupe/sedan with several upgrades. The BRZ is the much better car for driving but the Civic Si is the better car in general.
When I point to having some body roll in order to make a suspension work I do indeed mean SOME body roll. We're not talking about a mid-'70s Cadillac or anything. I look at the '12 Si and see a little more roll than the '11 Si but I wouldn't say it is significant. Now, if you've put 100k miles on an 8th gen Si, yes, it will feel like that '12 Si is rolling around like a boat. There are so many different parameters for suspension tuning and I thought the '09 Si sedan I test drove felt solid, well controlled, a little darty (if that makes sense) but also a little too stiff in some conditions. I think the worst case for some of the Accords over the years has been a lot of body roll combined with an awkwardly jarring ride quality at times. We should all agree that the continuous increases in height of our cars for safety reasons have made our cars less fun to drive which is a shame.
And I would expect the HFP kit to include springs and dampers having different rates but not necessarily offering less roll which could result in more tire wear. HPD's page still includes replacement roll bars for the 8th gen Civic - I'm sure they expect you to combine them with lowering springs having higher rates and more aggressive tires, and I'm sure they would tell a customer of the possible down sides. In real world conditions though the passive control designs Honda has used on the Civics, Integras, Preludes, etc. over the years can actually provide worse handling if roll is reduced which is why I'm cautious about suspension upgrades.
Last, I'm old school so I still believe that if you crash your car because you're acting like a moron it makes you a moron.
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Farage1
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CivicB18 wrote:
So people are jumping up and down because an Si with an HFP kit and summer tires beat a stock all season tired BRZ by a tenth of a second?!?!? Wow!
Just look at how the cars move on the track, the Civic looks a bit sloppy as it has a tremendous amount of body roll while the BRZ stay pretty flat through all transitions. Of course the Civic would be a better daily driver but the BRZ is way more connected, more tactile and more of an engaging drive. I'll take the BRZ hands down.
Hopefully for the Si, the early MMC will give it a more neutral and flatter handling capabilities while raising tactile performance. It's a shame that Honda used to rule the sports compact car segment and clearly just gave that crown away as the competition hands the Si its ass.
Honda, we know you can do better as the former Si was a better all around performer and the former Civic Type R sedan was pretty monumental as it could whip up on sports cars costing thousands more. I'm certainly not asking for something as aggressive as a Type R but the Si moniker certainly deserves more that what it's currently attached to. As the only "performance" car offering from Honda currently the Si is an embarassmentat best.
~Patrick
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garoto628 wrote:
There's a reason for that, the civic Type-R is an 8th gen. You can't compare any 9th gen civic to any 8th gen civic in any area other than interior technology and come out winning, let alone the toned down "Si" to a fully blown "Type R
. It has been established in several other threads that the Si shows excessive body roll in high performance driving. The fact that it still beat the BRZ with all that body roll is impressive.
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man the hate on the 9th gen is harddd. i love the 8th gen Si and had a choice between the 2 but chose the 2.4 because it suited me better.
how can you not compare any 9thgen to any 8thgen??? heres some facts:
-2.4 vs 2.0 - both good engines, 2.4 revs lower and has "fake" vtec but accelerates faster stock vs stock and sounds just as good imo. has plenty of passing power without the need to downshift. also id like to point out that ever since i got my intake i do hear a crossover at 5k, although not as pronounced as the k20.
-transmissions - the 9thgen has no issues in the first year.
-design - purely subjective. i get plenty of looks in my fb6.
-interior materials - 8thgen wins. they dropped the ball with the interior fabrics.
-technology - 9th clearly wins.
-brakes/tires - same old honda equipment. decent brakes, stock michelins are horrendous for performance.
-suspension - the 9th is more tuned towards comfort but the handling is by no means bad.
i hate to argue online but i just can't sit back and watch you guys destroy the 9thgen Si. it is a very similar car to the 8th gen, just newer and a little evolved. lets not forget that the price did not increase.
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DCR
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Got some good news this morning. Toyota allocated a build for my car, which will be built on 8/28 and should be in the US by end of September. This time, I have the actual build report, and, pretty sure this one is a manual:
MECHANICAL AND PERFORMANCE
Front Engine Rear Wheel Drive
2.0L 4-Cyl Boxer DOHC 16V 200HP With
Dual Variable Valve Timing
D-4S Direct & Port Injection System
6-Speed Manual Transmission
17" Alloy Wheels with 215/45R17 Tires
Electric Power Steering (EPS)
Fr & Rr Ventilated Disc Brakes
Ind MacPherson Strut Front Suspension
Double Wishbone Rear Suspension
Torsen Limited Slip Differential
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garoto628
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
garoto628 wrote:
There's a reason for that, the civic Type-R is an 8th gen. You can't compare any 9th gen civic to any 8th gen civic in any area other than interior technology and come out winning, let alone the toned down "Si" to a fully blown "Type R
. It has been established in several other threads that the Si shows excessive body roll in high performance driving. The fact that it still beat the BRZ with all that body roll is impressive.
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Not really, I was kind of expecting the HFP kit to have anti roll bar and stuff along with suspension that at least will not roll as much as a normal Si in roll, for example. So can't blame me for expecting it to look at least half as that of Type R... also since I don't have understanding any of the HFP OR the Si.
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I certainly don't blame you. I would like to see the Si be closer to the Type-R. But had this Si competed against the BRZ with more bolt-ons, then the comparison would have been unfair for the BRZ. Different topic, but I don't know how much potential can this Si truly have given the constraints of the 2.4 (or so I've heard).
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garoto628
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DCR wrote:
The HFP would lose to an upgraded tire BRZ, period. Also, run these same cars 10 times back to back and see if that 0.1 holds up every time.
This is a stupid comparison, just like when they ran the MS3 against an Si.
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I'm sure the BRZ will, I don't think the 0.1 will hold at all. I like the idea of giving the Si some credit. Not sure if it deserves much, but why not, it won the comparo. The Si is designed to combine a balance of daily driving and performance, so its a clear apples-to-oranges comparison but they were trying to make a point.
Congrats on your soon-to-arrive BRZ though, post pics.
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garoto628
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Farage1 wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
So people are jumping up and down because an Si with an HFP kit and summer tires beat a stock all season tired BRZ by a tenth of a second?!?!? Wow!
Just look at how the cars move on the track, the Civic looks a bit sloppy as it has a tremendous amount of body roll while the BRZ stay pretty flat through all transitions. Of course the Civic would be a better daily driver but the BRZ is way more connected, more tactile and more of an engaging drive. I'll take the BRZ hands down.
Hopefully for the Si, the early MMC will give it a more neutral and flatter handling capabilities while raising tactile performance. It's a shame that Honda used to rule the sports compact car segment and clearly just gave that crown away as the competition hands the Si its ass.
Honda, we know you can do better as the former Si was a better all around performer and the former Civic Type R sedan was pretty monumental as it could whip up on sports cars costing thousands more. I'm certainly not asking for something as aggressive as a Type R but the Si moniker certainly deserves more that what it's currently attached to. As the only "performance" car offering from Honda currently the Si is an embarassmentat best.
~Patrick
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garoto628 wrote:
There's a reason for that, the civic Type-R is an 8th gen. You can't compare any 9th gen civic to any 8th gen civic in any area other than interior technology and come out winning, let alone the toned down "Si" to a fully blown "Type R
. It has been established in several other threads that the Si shows excessive body roll in high performance driving. The fact that it still beat the BRZ with all that body roll is impressive.
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man the hate on the 9th gen is harddd. i love the 8th gen Si and had a choice between the 2 but chose the 2.4 because it suited me better.
how can you not compare any 9thgen to any 8thgen??? heres some facts:
-2.4 vs 2.0 - both good engines, 2.4 revs lower and has "fake" vtec but accelerates faster stock vs stock and sounds just as good imo. has plenty of passing power without the need to downshift. also id like to point out that ever since i got my intake i do hear a crossover at 5k, although not as pronounced as the k20.
-transmissions - the 9thgen has no issues in the first year.
-design - purely subjective. i get plenty of looks in my fb6.
-interior materials - 8thgen wins. they dropped the ball with the interior fabrics.
-technology - 9th clearly wins.
-brakes/tires - same old honda equipment. decent brakes, stock michelins are horrendous for performance.
-suspension - the 9th is more tuned towards comfort but the handling is by no means bad.
i hate to argue online but i just can't sit back and watch you guys destroy the 9thgen Si. it is a very similar car to the 8th gen, just newer and a little evolved. lets not forget that the price did not increase.
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I'm sure there are a lot of good reasons to like the 9th gen Si. I think the "Si" badge is distracting, without it folks would be able to see more clearly that it's a great car.
I didn't say that you can't "compare" the 9th to the 8th gen civics, I said that you can't "You can't compare any 9th gen civic to any 8th gen civic in any area other than interior technology and come out winning", which I think you unconsciously proved my point with your post.
Transmission, correct me if I'm wrong, but the 9th gen si's tranny is a carry-over from the 8th gen (or other vehicle with the same 3rd gear issue in mid 2000's). That's an unfair advantage you're giving there to the 9th lol.
I really like how the 9th gen si looks, but I still get thumbs up and stares in my now rare fiji blue 8th gen (moreso in bright sunny cali days).
I truly truly don't mean to argue, not my intention. I see lots of good things in the 9th gen as a car, but I personally do not think it should have replaced what an Si brings to enthusiasts.
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