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Gfn8r
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First off, as I always state, I don't want to start a "flame war" or an argument with anyone, maybe just vent a little is all!
Obviously, the new Accord was far along in development when Erik Berkman was brought on board, and I suspect that the unusual secrecy from Honda (as well as the later release for the Accord) meant that things probably had to be cleaned up, ala the Civic, before launch.
This presser with Mr. Berkman's remarks is telling, and more than a little ironic, considering what we've learned about the Accord losing DBW over this past week. Have a look:
Remarks by Erik Berkman President, Honda R&D Americas, Inc. Center for Automotive Research Management Briefing Seminars Traverse City, Mich. -- August 8, 2012
Here's some highlights:
"We launched production of the 3rd generation Accord in 1985, with a racing-inspired double-wishbone suspension, which Honda pioneered on its front-wheel-drive lineup. Most people wouldn't know why rack-and-pinion steering was important.
But once they got in the car, they could feel the responsiveness. Suddenly, Accord went from being a customer's second car to being their first car. Honda invested in the product in places where the customer might not see it, but where they could feel and understand it. This is the Honda I am determined to help lead into the future." |
(::Faceplam, facepalm, facepalm, facepalm!!::)
"..if the perception is that we aren't winning in the marketplace, we aren't happy. We recognize the high expectations of our customers that is what we want. Those of us in product development take seriously the need to fulfill them at a high level every time out. And we're going to do something about it. We all know that second place is the first loser. So, we have some work to do. .
[.]
[.]
[.]
As you know, we introduced an all-new 2012 Honda Civic last year. And while it received some mixed reviews, our customers have made it the best-selling compact car in America this year. Still, our goal is not to be best-selling … our target is best. That is the expectation of our customers and our fans. And we will continue to refine the current model this fall with both interior and exterior design changes to achieve that high target." |
Yes, they responded. Is the Accord still a consequence of the "old" mentality despite the amped-up content? Are LED headlights a way to cover this up?!
The Honda I know would be "no compromises best!" We do know that the average customer doesn't know a ball joint from a hole in the wall!! But the overall feel of a Honda was what drew people in, what was special.
@owequitit says it well in the All-New 2013 Honda Accord Will Debut with Premium and Sophisticated Exterior Styling >> What we do know thread:
"One by one Honda is reducing themselves to an LED vs keyless ignition debate versus the competition. The superior engineering seems to be gone for good. Gone are class leading power and FE stats. Gone are extremely class leading build quality and refinement for a nominal premium. Gone are top notch suspensions and chassis design. Gone are uniquely handsome styling. Increasingly thinning are the little tiny nuances that amazed you because Honda seemed to put a great deal of thought into something so trivial, like the design of a handle, the location of a cubby, the feel of a switch.
Essentially, going are the reasons that a Honda was a clear choice over all of the competition.
....I wonder if Honda will think it is important if we don't buy our 8th Accord in a row, because they may no longer have the most unquestionably compelling package? Do you think Honda cares about stuff like that? Hell, even bean counters understand that language...." |
Truer words were never spoken!! That's why myself and so many others are so effin' pissed-off over this!!! We've seen so much potential from Honda over the years, then we've watched them fall into mediocrity, and with this new Accord, it looked like Honda may have "hit bottom" and started "recovery." Until now.
Because of "where I am" in negotiations with a potential buyer and the timing of this, I can't wait until the Mazda 6 (which is always touted as a driver's choice viz. "zoom, zoom") is released, and my OCD, anal-retentive research strategy (can't wait until next spring because I won't subject a new car to snow, and won't get a car to "tide me over") would preclude me from getting anything else other than an Accord (which would be my third Accord, my fourth Honda, for a total of nine Hondas in my immediate family since 1990); I'll likely buy the Accord in spite of any shortcomings--as I've said elsewhere, my last Accord was bought on faith.
That may not happen again! I will be watching CR to see if the new cars like the Fusion and 6 hold up long-term. I will watch to see what the reaction to this seemingly backward move is (unless they do something to "Honda-ize" a strut, unlike what was done to the Civic), and what Honda does going forward. If this new Accord doesn't do its thing from a drive and tactile standpoint any better than my 7th-Gen, and doesn't "excel in all areas," I'll look elsewhere for the first time in over twenty years for my next car.
If that happens, when people ask for and get a different recommendation from me as to what car to buy, I'll state that I didn't leave Honda! Honda left me!
You might guess that I'm even more resistant to change than most people! Especially when it comes to cars--I've been a car fanatic since I was four or five years-old.
Hopefully, as I've stated in other places, all our worrying will be just that! Despite the tone of this post, I'm going to remain positive and hopeful! But if Honda doesn't get with the program, and fast, they'll head down the "GM" path as more of we enthusiasts decide to look elsewhere.
That would be the worst tribute to Soichiro that one could imagine!
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BachelorFrog
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It was all making sense until I read that.
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CivicB18
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I agree somewhat that Berkman was probably brought into the Accord's development process later in the game but I still think he had a lot of influence in terms of interior design, exterior design, material selection, chassis tuning and standard/available feature content.
The loss of DWB is saddening but I'll reserve my full judgement until I actually drive one as execution is key here. In Honda's defense I'll say that some ofthe best driving cars in the world (BMW/Porsche) use struts ip front with no bitching from enthusiasts.
I personally think the Accord and the MMC'd Civic are truly the stepping stones to the next generation of Erik Berkman's vision of returning to where Honda used to be in the market place yet on a more modern scale. Hopefully the next 1 to 5 years will bring out some truly compelling, desirable, innovative and technologically advanced products from Honda/Acura.
~Patrick
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sadlerau
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CivicB18 wrote:
The loss of DWB is saddening but I'll reserve my full judgement until I actually drive one as execution is key here. In Honda's defense I'll say that some of the best driving cars in the world (BMW/Porsche) use struts up front with no bitching from enthusiasts.
~Patrick
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Surely you miss one important fact in this statement - the other cars aren't asking the front wheels to do the steering and the power down at the same time? I think that changes the dynamics somewhat.
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CivicB18
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sadlerau wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
The loss of DWB is saddening but I'll reserve my full judgement until I actually drive one as execution is key here. In Honda's defense I'll say that some of the best driving cars in the world (BMW/Porsche) use struts up front with no bitching from enthusiasts.
~Patrick
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RWD or FWD execution still plays a leading role in the final product.
~Patrick
Surely you miss one important fact in this statement - the other cars aren't asking the front wheels to do the steering and the power down at the same time? I think that changes the dynamics somewhat.
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owequitit
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CivicB18 wrote:
I agree somewhat that Berkman was probably brought into the Accord's development process later in the game but I still think he had a lot of influence in terms of interior design, exterior design, material selection, chassis tuning and standard/available feature content.
The loss of DWB is saddening but I'll reserve my full judgement until I actually drive one as execution is key here. In Honda's defense I'll say that some ofthe best driving cars in the world (BMW/Porsche) use struts ip front with no bitching from enthusiasts. |
See the lengthy discussions on what BMW and Porsche have done to make those struts handle that would be simply unacceptable to the average the Honda owner...
Also, while execution is always important, it is harder to execute with inferior technology. Just the way it is. In this case it is actually Honda handicapping themselves.
| I personally think the Accord and the MMC'd Civic are truly the stepping stones to the next generation of Erik Berkman's vision of returning to where Honda used to be in the market place yet on a more modern scale. Hopefully the next 1 to 5 years will bring out some truly compelling, desirable, innovative and technologically advanced products from Honda/Acura. |
Pretty sure this is the same "wait and see drivel" we have been getting dosed in 5 year increments since struts debuted on the Civic back in 2001. One wonders how many decades people should wait for Honda to begin executing product... We are nearly on a decade and a half now, and all I have seen is powertrain mediocrity, descending quality, reduction in engineering prowess, the cancellation of all sports product, the dilution of all sporty product, the dumbing down of suspensions, and a chronic inability to quell common complaints (like excessive road noise).
So tell me Patrick, what I am supposed to be waiting for? When is this Renaissance that has been going to come for 11 years now going to start? Perhaps it is time for Honda to convince me why I should buy one instead of something else, because the way I have been doing it is clearly not working.
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sadlerau
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owequitit wrote:
So tell me Patrick, what I am supposed to be waiting for? When is this Renaissance that has been going to come for 11 years now going to start? Perhaps it is time for Honda to convince me why I should buy one instead of something else, because the way I have been doing it is clearly not working.
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No perhaps the proper course of action is to move on to another manufacturer? With every new model, Honda appears to travel further off the path they had followed in the distant past.
For me personally, the Legend looks like it is heading in the wrong direction for my personal needs, so I may have to choose a Merc E or Bimmer 5? :( The CRV will not be replaced with another, and they don't sell the RDX [which would be perfect for me] in Australia so it looks like an Audi Q5 is on the cards. The NSX had better hit the marks [and I have no reason to doubt that it will] or I may be left with only second hand Hondas in my stable.
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nash24
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I bet if double wishbones being dropped wasnt mentioned most of the people on this site would drive the car and wouldnt have a clue until told afterwards and isnt the previous civic SI that everyone loves on this site has macs up front?
Stop bitching about stuff and wait till you try it people otherwise you will always be disappointed
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owequitit
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nash24 wrote:
I bet if double wishbones being dropped wasnt mentioned most of the people on this site would drive the car and wouldnt have a clue until told afterwards and isnt the previous civic SI that everyone loves on this site has macs up front?
Stop bitching about stuff and wait till you try it people otherwise you will always be disappointed
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You are right. Most people wouldn't know it had struts. But they would know that it didn't have the same ride/handling compromise versus the old car. They would know that if got upset on mid-corner bumps, they would know if rode more harshly, they would know if it was less responsive and confident on turn in, and they would know if it didn't have as stable of a highway ride or didn't track as well down the road. Guaranteed. My dad doesn't know a thing about cars, and he made comments about the differences between my Civic and his Accord immediately. Couldn't tell me in technical terms what was happening or why, but he DID know that there was a difference.
This asinine bullshit about "people don't know the difference between a strut and DWB" so they wouldn't be able to tell" is just not true.
You probably don't know anything about aerodynamics, but I guarantee you would know the difference between riding in a plane with high wing loading, and riding in one with low wing loading. You wouldn't be able to tell me why it was happening, but you would damn sure know it was happening. Same with boat hull design.
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owequitit
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sadlerau wrote:
owequitit wrote:
So tell me Patrick, what I am supposed to be waiting for? When is this Renaissance that has been going to come for 11 years now going to start? Perhaps it is time for Honda to convince me why I should buy one instead of something else, because the way I have been doing it is clearly not working.
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No perhaps the proper course of action is to move on to another manufacturer? With every new model, Honda appears to travel further off the path they had followed in the distant past.
For me personally, the Legend looks like it is heading in the wrong direction for my personal needs, so I may have to choose a Merc E or Bimmer 5? :( The CRV will not be replaced with another, and they don't sell the RDX [which would be perfect for me] in Australia so it looks like an Audi Q5 is on the cards. The NSX had better hit the marks [and I have no reason to doubt that it will] or I may be left with only second hand Hondas in my stable.
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I don't know if we will jump ship or not. One thing going for Honda at this point, is that they apparently want to keep leasing to us... While that used to be an added bonus at new car time, it may now turn out to be the deciding factor, which reiterates my point about Honda trivializing their advantages.
Whereas in the past, we walked into the Honda dealer and picked up the Accord we wanted, we are likely to be forced to actually go out and drive others this time around. That wouldn't have happened in the past. While Honda may, or may not, still win out, it is unlikely that they will have as decisive of a sale as years past. There is a slim glimmer of hope that maybe they will be able to reconcile all objectives, but based on the realities of what they are doing, I don't think they will be able to. That is just real world talking.
However, it is pretty sad when I used to marvel at the technological power of even a lowly hum-drum driver like the Accord (which always ended up not so hum-drum compared to cars like Camry), and now I have to consider things like LED headlights to be the deciding factor, or a 5% better money factor... While I used to WANT to buy Hondas, it is increasingly becoming an excercise in "well, our payment will be slightly lower, so..."
Ultimately, I am not the primary driver on this next Accord, so I don't make final decision. However, I AM going to make sure that a Camry and an Altima get an equal representation at the test drive section of the purchase, which is something I wouldn't have done before. I personally probably favor the Camry over Altima, as I like their V6 better than the Altima's, and I know they won't disappoint on reliability compared to the Accord.
Either way, if we end up with a Honda, it most likely won't be for the unquestionably better execution of the past.
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HONDA AFVM
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CivicB18 wrote:
I agree somewhat that Berkman was probably brought into the Accord's development process later in the game but I still think he had a lot of influence in terms of interior design, exterior design, material selection, chassis tuning and standard/available feature content.
The loss of DWB is saddening but I'll reserve my full judgement until I actually drive one as execution is key here. In Honda's defense I'll say that some ofthe best driving cars in the world (BMW/Porsche) use struts ip front with no bitching from enthusiasts.
I personally think the Accord and the MMC'd Civic are truly the stepping stones to the next generation of Erik Berkman's vision of returning to where Honda used to be in the market place yet on a more modern scale. Hopefully the next 1 to 5 years will bring out some truly compelling, desirable, innovative and technologically advanced products from Honda/Acura.
~Patrick
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Patrick, one can ALWAYS count on you to be a stabilizing force....so little words posted, with such a big meaning......I agree......
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RolledaNsx
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You two need to wake up.... :)~
Eric was not in the Accord's development process, he was still at HPD.
You won't see his vision until 2014-2015.
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DCR
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RolledaNsx wrote:
You two need to wake up.... :)~
Eric was not in the Accord's development process, he was still at HPD.
You won't see his vision until 2014-2015.
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The problem is, how many people do we need "visions" from? It seems to be a revolving door/moving target at Honda with this shit.
I am not holding my breath, nor am I going to believe a single word that gets printed from his mouth. Until he proves he is more than a puppet with corporate Honda moving his lips, his words mean nothing.
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HONDA AFVM
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RolledaNsx wrote:
You two need to wake up.... :)~
Eric was not in the Accord's development process, he was still at HPD.
You won't see his vision until 2014-2015.
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I guess I can say that Honda employees preform many tasks and are requested from other departments to preform things that they are well educated on.......Let me put it to you this way.......If a person who designs starter buttons in R&D is understanding of motorcycles because they worked in that section at one time.......then that person could be called into another department to advise and help lead a project that isn't even part of their department......I can't give examples because it would jeopardize some people.......but just because someone works in HPD, doesn't mean they didn't sublet their knowledge in the design of the 2013 Accord........get it......
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RolledaNsx
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You don't get it....
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owequitit
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DCR wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
You two need to wake up.... :)~
Eric was not in the Accord's development process, he was still at HPD.
You won't see his vision until 2014-2015.
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The problem is, how many people do we need "visions" from? It seems to be a revolving door/moving target at Honda with this shit.
I am not holding my breath, nor am I going to believe a single word that gets printed from his mouth. Until he proves he is more than a puppet with corporate Honda moving his lips, his words mean nothing.
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I don't think Berkman is a puppet at all. Probably one of the most promising people in Honda right now, and he is in a position now to make good on his potential.
But the timing is bad. Now it will be almost another half decade before Honda's two most critical products come due for a change. That is going to be financially painful if the Accord doesn't smash it out of the park.
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WongKN
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RolledaNsx,
Just curious, do you work for Honda or do you have lots of internal contacts ? It would be very helpful to TOV if you do because you seem to know some important facts here.
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RolledaNsx
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Retired in 2010 after 28 years of happy service but still have many friends in the business....
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WongKN
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OK. Thanks for letting me know. Gives the proper perspective to your comments here.
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Colin
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Retired in 2010 after 28 years of happy service but still have many friends in the business....
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Are you Dick Colliver?
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WongKN
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Oh yes, one question. Do you know anything more about the supposed 'hot'(-ter) CR-Z ? I even managed to get a confirmation from the LPL of the CR-Z himself, that he really did tell the European media that a hotter one is coming. And he confirms it is coming but won't tell me when or any other details. So this is the million dollar question. When ? I am beginning to have my doubts whether it will ever come. Honda is really wasting a very good design (the CR-Z) and they owe it to the model to give it a hotter variant. Anything you can add ?
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RolledaNsx
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They was working on one but lately it's been quiet.
Hints: is it profitable?
getting new Fit in 2014(THE FIRST FULLY BACK TO BASICS DESIGN CAUSED BY THE CR BACKLASH) chassis
So you answer the question...
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WongKN
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I was hoping the question of 'profitable' won't come into question when it comes to hot or enthusiast-centric models and variants. I really don't think the two are compatible. I had hopes there, because of the way Honda in Malaysia operated for years and how they see the intangible benefits of having a hot model that doesn't sell in large numbers but yet contributes to the brand image. Why else will Honda persist in having 'niche' models, such as the huge trouble they went to when justifying the FD2 Civic Type-R for sale here. Really, the stories told to me by the product planners who fought for it was not very flattering of Honda top management in general, such as the challenge to them that they must sell the FD2R in the same numbers as the Accord 2.4 which was shit ridiculous.
Honda Malaysia product planners includes people who are semi professional race drivers in their part time. So they know the CR-Z in its current form is but barely able to replace the FD2R but yet they fought for its inclusion in the domestic line-up because they -must- have an enthusiast model. Their initial projected sales figures were miniscule (though happily the CR-Z actually outsold its quota by a few times).
After the infamous european articles (about the hotter CR-Z) and after Andrew talked about the 180ps turbocharged CR-Z, I went and asked a contact I had who was in Honda HQ at that time and he confirmed that the car was in the research stage (but not yet into the development stage). But I think over time, my contact probably felt he gave me too much insider info because after a few other discussions (such as when he told me his unit gave a huge shout of joy when Ito-san announced in an internal meeting that he had approved the development of the HSV for the road, that was before the new NSX saga), he has now closed up and won't comment on anything more. We now talk about life in Japan, the sakura flower bloom and such things. :).
I hope Honda does not think that they can ride everything on the announcement of the new NSX. I know for fact that they are losing long time, hard-core fanatics, left, right and center. By 'hard core fanatics', I mean fans who actually blindly defends Honda in forums from disparaging remarks, even in the face of overwhelming odds. Day after day, I see such fans dissapearing into the folds of the competition. I remember how Honda was so proud of having TOVA and such a large base of fanatical fans when they first opened office in Malaysia, over a decade ago. And how other manufacturers were truly -jealous- of Honda and their fan base. Well, I am afraid it looks like the tables are starting to turn...
If Honda is still basing important model decisions on sales numbers and narrow minded profitability (without taking into account the larger picture and the intangibles of image and fan-base), then I for one am truly disappointed. Even Hollywood have learned to kowtow to the power of the fan-base. I cannot believe that Honda, until now, have not learned anything yet.
Sorry for the rant. Just that it hits a particularly sensitive nerve...
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RolledaNsx
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They want it!!!!
But: It's built in Japan and the Yen is to high!
All Fits and CR-Z's are sold at a lost! The new factory in Mexico will fix that problem.
And the sohc L engine wasn't designed for Type-R power.... yes, you can put a supercharger or turbo on it .... it makes power but just doesn't fill right shifting at 6000 rpm.
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WongKN
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RolledaNsx wrote:
They want it!!!!
But: It's built in Japan and the Yen is to high!
All Fits and CR-Z's are sold at a lost! The new factory in Mexico will fix that problem.
And the sohc L engine wasn't designed for Type-R power.... yes, you can put a supercharger or turbo on it .... it makes power but just doesn't fill right shifting at 6000 rpm.
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Ah... if it is due to the reason highlighted in bold, then at least I will respect Honda for the delay or the decision not to make it. Though I might want to argue that the L-Series is at least better than nothing, because there really is no other engine Honda can use for an outright performance car at the moment, right ?
I have been hearing about the problem with the yen for some time now. It is also affecting Honda Malaysia so the decision to build the Jazz Hybrid locally is an extremely wise move.
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WongKN
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Oh yes, also Honda should not under-estimate their fanatical fans too much, or the drawing power of their products when made the way the enthusiasts desires. Again, taking the example of the FD2 Civic Type-R for Malaysia, Honda's competitors were having a field day mocking and making fun of Honda Malaysia's supposedly 'foolish decision' to market the car, selling at just below RM200k. 'No person in his or her right mind would pay so much for a lowly Civic', so goes the mockery. Well they were proven wrong because the FD2R sold so well that there was a waiting list throughout much of its market life here in Malaysia. And it outsold a number of supposedly 'prestige' european hot hatches and sporty cars. So much for a 'lowly Civic'. The Type-R badge holds its own against brand snobbery because by in reality the lure of owning a Type-R is in itself a brand snobbery in a way. I know of several people whom sold off cars like a Mistubishi Lancer Evo, in order to get an FD2R and when it wasn't hardcore enough to satisfy him, one owner sold it off and got an FD2 Mugen RR instead.
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sadlerau
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WongKN wrote:
Oh yes, also Honda should not under-estimate their fanatical fans too much, or the drawing power of their products when made the way the enthusiasts desires. Again, taking the example of the FD2 Civic Type-R for Malaysia, Honda's competitors were having a field day mocking and making fun of Honda Malaysia's supposedly 'foolish decision' to market the car, selling at just below RM200k. 'No person in his or her right mind would pay so much for a lowly Civic', so goes the mockery. Well they were proven wrong because the FD2R sold so well that there was a waiting list throughout much of its market life here in Malaysia. And it outsold a number of supposedly 'prestige' european hot hatches and sporty cars. So much for a 'lowly Civic'. The Type-R badge holds its own against brand snobbery because by in reality the lure of owning a Type-R is in itself a brand snobbery in a way. I know of several people whom sold off cars like a Mistubishi Lancer Evo, in order to get an FD2R and when it wasn't hardcore enough to satisfy him, one owner sold it off and got an FD2 Mugen RR instead.
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Wong you forgot to mention this only holds true for genuine Type R products. To try and sell half baked versions doesn't have the same "cred" [as Honda Australia found out when it tried to sell a DC5 Integra Type R that was really a Type S with R badges. Didn't matter that it was faster in a straight line than a DC2 Type R, it just wasn't a Type R. 90% of buyers for this type of car will know the difference] :)
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WongKN
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sadlerau,
Oh yeah, that is very very true.
However, let me give you another perspective which I feel relates to the situation hardcore Honda fanatics like you and I are in now.
Related to the Aussie-spec DC5R that you pointed out, I believe I have told this story before. The first Type-R that Honda Malaysia wanted to market wasn't the FD2R but the DC5R. This was a proper 'sports coupe' which Honda Malaysia really wanted. The plan, which like all plans which was meticulously laid up, initially ran exactly as designed. Honda Malaysia brought in 2 units of DC5R from Japan, race prepped. and raced it in the local 12 hours endurance race called the MME. One of the DC5Rs promptly won its Class (Class A for 2.0l production based cars), on its first try.
Great !
The local 'KL International Motor Show' followed next. And according to the plan, Honda Malaysia will display the MME Class-A winner DC5R, -along with the actual DC5R- which they will launch for sale here in Malaysia.
Then, the problem surfaced. I am not sure how much of an influence I had in the issue but at that time I was on very close terms with the product planner whom was responsible for the DC5R project. He was passing to me lots of insider info as well as status on his project. However, I made, what I consider now to be a grave mistake, in highlighting to him that Australia also markets a 'DC5 Integra Type-R' but which wasn't a 'real Type-R' like you pointed out. So I asked "when Honda HQ said you will get the DC5R, which specs ? The JDM 'real' DC5R or the Aussie spec 'fake' DC5R (with due apologies to Aussie spec DC5R owners for disparaging your product, no offence meant, please keep reading) ?".
When my friend checked, it was true, that what he was promised and what Honda Malaysia will be getting was really the Aussie-spec DC5R. I remember he and I had some frantic discussion. Of course being the 'purebreed' Honda fanatic, I told him that the Aussie-spec DC5R was a 'pretender' and that I 'won't' accept anything other than the actual real JDM-spec DC5R.
And so he frantically went back to Honda HQ and had a long discussion, which ended up in an arguement, which ended up with a 'take it or leave it'. And my friend promptly said "I'll leave it, I won't be able to live down the indignity of selling a 'fake' DC5R".
We, in Malaysia, were left without any really sporty Honda for years due to that decision. Now, in retrospect, looking back at it, I should have asked my friends how much hope he had of getting the JDM-spec DC5R. If as I had suspected all along even back then, that there was no hope, in retrospect, I really shouldn't have told him to 'leave it'. Take the bloody car and market it as the DC5S (Integra Type-S) or Integra SiR or something. ANYTHING. Because beggars cannot be choosers. And when the alternative to having a so-called 'fake' DC5R was nothing at all, then that so-called 'fake' DC5R definitely becomes extremely attractive.
IMHO, this relates to the current situation at hand. Honda truly has -nothing- really fast and sporty in the line-up. At least for the rest of the world outside the US (at least they have the 2.4l Civic Si, come on now, it is BETTER THAN NOTHING). So given this, if Honda is to launch the 'hot' CR-Z, so what if I need to shift at 6000rpm. For the fan who likes the CR-Z but wants more performance, it is certainly a lot better than now, where there really is nothing in the line-up.
So to me, Honda just need to be honest about it. No, it will not be a Type-R but it will still be a 'hot' CR-Z with a powerful turbocharged 1.5l IMA engine. And I for one believes that there will be a lot of happy Honda fans who will gladly take it, though to be honest I won't (but that is because my DA6 turbo is still running strong).
Just something to consider and think about, IMHO.
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Fan Koni
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Does this have anything to do with the talk about the Euro CTR and a 1.6T being shown at the Paris Auto show?
In 2006 the last CTR was shown there.
Plus I cant help thinking about the the Fit EV and its rear suspension ...
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WongKN
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When is the Paris show ?
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