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jero
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You're calling 700/mo very close to 1,000/mo?
If you would be so kind to find the europe data and post it that would be great.
I know canada sales are negligible as posted on a previous month thead.
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notyper
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I said "Honda hybrid friendy Japan". Did you miss that one?
Japan buys orders of magnitudes more Honda hybrids than the US does. But even there the Insight and CRZ are big fails. Shall I use pictograms next time?
SC
DrWhiner wrote:
LOL. Consider that Honda sold 2/3 to 1/2 less regualr vehicles in JP compared with the USA.
So, for apple to apple comparison, it's like CR-Z is selling at 6k to 8k for the FIRST FIVE months in the U.S., close to its 15k target.
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kidoairaku
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alright, lets fan the flames around here!
Update to Japan Hybrid sales for June (I have no idea why its a month and a half behind)
Japan sales figures:
CR-Z
Jan - 739
Feb - 614
Mar - 725
Apr - 342
May - 345
Jun - 403 Sales are UP!
Insight
Jan - 742
Feb - 1208
Mar - 1758
Apr - 598
May - 566
Jun - 864 Sales are UP!
Fit Hybrid
Jan - 4802
Feb - 5601
Mar - 9252
Apr - 4582
May - 4632
Jun - 8197 Seriously? and we cant get a thousand of these shipped over?
Fit Shuttle Hybrid
Jan - 8498
Feb - 9757
Mar - 8864
Apr - 3656
May - 3799
Jun - 4233 Or these? I'll take one of these.
Freed Hybrid
Jan - 5584
Feb - 5601
Mar - 5181
Apr - 2985
May - 2956
Jun - 4105 yeah thats 5X the Insight sales
Freed Spike Hybrid
Jan - 2744
Feb - 1991
Mar - 2460
Apr - 1229
May - 1424
Jun - 1921 thats 5X the CRZ sales
And finally
Prius
Jan - 29,108
Feb - 35,875
Mar - 45,496
Apr - 21,906
May - 20,789
Jun - 28,456
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DCR
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Strange...I was under the assumption that the CR-Z was selling well in Japan.
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Hondarulez
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Again, the thing is, most consumers don't care about speed and driving fun, especially people who are interested in hybrids.
More specifically, when people shop for hybrids, they look for the best EPA mpg. Toyota took this route right from the beginning 15 years ago. Honda on the other hand did not want to turn their hybrid cars into appliances. They chose a system that would have the least impact to driving fun while improving fuel economy considerably.
It's obvious which type is preferred by most people. Toyota has built a very solid foundation. Not only Honda, but many other brands will have a hard time catching up.
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fladdams2k1
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Hondarulez wrote:
Again, the thing is, most consumers don't care about speed and driving fun, especially people who are interested in hybrids.
More specifically, when people shop for hybrids, they look for the best EPA mpg. Toyota took this route right from the beginning 15 years ago. Honda on the other hand did not want to turn their hybrid cars into appliances. They chose a system that would have the least impact to driving fun while improving fuel economy considerably.
It's obvious which type is preferred by most people. Toyota has built a very solid foundation. Not only Honda, but many other brands will have a hard time catching up.
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Exactly! People shopping for hybrids want the best MPG, otherwise, why even bother? No one is asking Honda for a car with all the drawbacks of a hybrid and MPG that could be closely matched in a regular gas vehicle. They're also not looking for hybrid type performance in their sports cars. Not sure why Honda is intent on pushing this angle; it's obvious, at least in the States, people do NOT want their hybrids mixed with sports cars. Inevitably the result is a car that does neither thing very well.
On that point, IMO, the new NSX should NOT be a hybrid. It should be a conventional mid-engine sports coupe, with modern engine advancements. 425HP potent V6, with an 8 speed auto w/ paddles and a 3200 or less curb weight would be ideal and wouldnt need any 'help' from an electric engine.
It's a real simple business model; 1 or 2 Hybrid Honda models (ex. Fit and Civic Hybrid) that deliver stellar MPG and keep the hybrid powertrains out of the rest of the product line. One Acura hybrid is enough (ILX). Honda's sportscars (S2000 and NSX) were praised for thier simplicity and purity; adding a hybrid powertrain runs counterproductive to that philosophy.
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CarPhreakD
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Performance Hybrid:
The problem is that folks like fladdams automatically associate hybrids with the Prius, rather than as performance applications. Obviously, if done with proper execution like what Porsche is doing with the 918 (and Ferrari too for that matter...), they can be incredible. Not sure if the next NSX would be like that, but IMO if they aren't pushing the technological envelope, they are only going to be left behind in the world of subpar IMA vehicles.
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notyper
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I disagree CarPhreakD.
Anything you're going to do with a hybrid for performance could be done lighter, cheaper and faster with a single source powertrain.
Hybrids, even in performance apps, are still about improving economy.
SC
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jero
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So why doesn't the CRZ or insight sell... pretty much anywhere in the world?
Honda sells nearly 20,000 hybrids a month in Japan and less than 10% of them are the CRZ and insight combined?
Is there really any reason why Honda should keep either of these beyond their current model cycle?
Thank you for your numbers. Please continue to add these to this thread each month.
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Hondarulez
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fladdams2k1 wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
Again, the thing is, most consumers don't care about speed and driving fun, especially people who are interested in hybrids.
More specifically, when people shop for hybrids, they look for the best EPA mpg. Toyota took this route right from the beginning 15 years ago. Honda on the other hand did not want to turn their hybrid cars into appliances. They chose a system that would have the least impact to driving fun while improving fuel economy considerably.
It's obvious which type is preferred by most people. Toyota has built a very solid foundation. Not only Honda, but many other brands will have a hard time catching up.
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Exactly! People shopping for hybrids want the best MPG, otherwise, why even bother? No one is asking Honda for a car with all the drawbacks of a hybrid and MPG that could be closely matched in a regular gas vehicle. They're also not looking for hybrid type performance in their sports cars. Not sure why Honda is intent on pushing this angle; it's obvious, at least in the States, people do NOT want their hybrids mixed with sports cars. Inevitably the result is a car that does neither thing very well.
On that point, IMO, the new NSX should NOT be a hybrid. It should be a conventional mid-engine sports coupe, with modern engine advancements. 425HP potent V6, with an 8 speed auto w/ paddles and a 3200 or less curb weight would be ideal and wouldnt need any 'help' from an electric engine.
It's a real simple business model; 1 or 2 Hybrid Honda models (ex. Fit and Civic Hybrid) that deliver stellar MPG and keep the hybrid powertrains out of the rest of the product line. One Acura hybrid is enough (ILX). Honda's sportscars (S2000 and NSX) were praised for thier simplicity and purity; adding a hybrid powertrain runs counterproductive to that philosophy.
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IMO, Toyota successfully made most, if not all people to associate hybrids = max mpg. Honda on the other hand did not do a good job marketing its own IMA system. It freaking launched the IMA on a 2-seater. While Toyota kept making changes to the Prius, as well as expanding the line up constantly, Honda did pretty much nothing since the launch of the 1997 Insight until the Civic hybrid/Honda hybrid came out in 2005 or something. By that time, Toyota already has a substantial lead and people are already associating hybrids = appliances and max mpg.
Honda also failed to advertise that its system is very efficient without being complex in the REAL WORLD.
I don't mind NSX being a hybrid personally. NSX stands for "New Sports eXperimental." The 1st NSX can use the NSX name because it was a whole new concept for Honda. Its Honda first MR supercar. It has many technologies and innovative technologies packed in it. If the 2nd gen NSX looks to continue that trend by introducing new elements into what a modern supercar should be like. It will be one of the first supercars to have a hybrid setup. It will be one of the first supercars to have the Sports hybrid SH-AWD setup. It will also probably be the first supercar to get 30mpg combined while getting from 0-60mph in around 3 seconds. This is why it will be worthy of the NSX nameplate.
You mentioned that Honda sports cars are praised for their simplicity and purity. However, when you want a V6 that makes 425hp and/or want a 8-spd auto with paddles instead of 6MT, that's already beyond simplicity and purity IMO.
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fladdams2k1
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Hondarulez wrote:
fladdams2k1 wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
Again, the thing is, most consumers don't care about speed and driving fun, especially people who are interested in hybrids.
More specifically, when people shop for hybrids, they look for the best EPA mpg. Toyota took this route right from the beginning 15 years ago. Honda on the other hand did not want to turn their hybrid cars into appliances. They chose a system that would have the least impact to driving fun while improving fuel economy considerably.
It's obvious which type is preferred by most people. Toyota has built a very solid foundation. Not only Honda, but many other brands will have a hard time catching up.
|
Exactly! People shopping for hybrids want the best MPG, otherwise, why even bother? No one is asking Honda for a car with all the drawbacks of a hybrid and MPG that could be closely matched in a regular gas vehicle. They're also not looking for hybrid type performance in their sports cars. Not sure why Honda is intent on pushing this angle; it's obvious, at least in the States, people do NOT want their hybrids mixed with sports cars. Inevitably the result is a car that does neither thing very well.
On that point, IMO, the new NSX should NOT be a hybrid. It should be a conventional mid-engine sports coupe, with modern engine advancements. 425HP potent V6, with an 8 speed auto w/ paddles and a 3200 or less curb weight would be ideal and wouldnt need any 'help' from an electric engine.
It's a real simple business model; 1 or 2 Hybrid Honda models (ex. Fit and Civic Hybrid) that deliver stellar MPG and keep the hybrid powertrains out of the rest of the product line. One Acura hybrid is enough (ILX). Honda's sportscars (S2000 and NSX) were praised for thier simplicity and purity; adding a hybrid powertrain runs counterproductive to that philosophy.
|
IMO, Toyota successfully made most, if not all people to associate hybrids = max mpg. Honda on the other hand did not do a good job marketing its own IMA system. It freaking launched the IMA on a 2-seater. While Toyota kept making changes to the Prius, as well as expanding the line up constantly, Honda did pretty much nothing since the launch of the 1997 Insight until the Civic hybrid/Honda hybrid came out in 2005 or something. By that time, Toyota already has a substantial lead and people are already associating hybrids = appliances and max mpg.
Honda also failed to advertise that its system is very efficient without being complex in the REAL WORLD.
I don't mind NSX being a hybrid personally. NSX stands for "New Sports eXperimental." The 1st NSX can use the NSX name because it was a whole new concept for Honda. Its Honda first MR supercar. It has many technologies and innovative technologies packed in it. If the 2nd gen NSX looks to continue that trend by introducing new elements into what a modern supercar should be like. It will be one of the first supercars to have a hybrid setup. It will be one of the first supercars to have the Sports hybrid SH-AWD setup. It will also probably be the first supercar to get 30mpg combined while getting from 0-60mph in around 3 seconds. This is why it will be worthy of the NSX nameplate.
You mentioned that Honda sports cars are praised for their simplicity and purity. However, when you want a V6 that makes 425hp and/or want a 8-spd auto with paddles instead of 6MT, that's already beyond simplicity and purity IMO.
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That's an interesting point in terms of purity, and you're correct. I personally would prefer a standard manual, but in keeping with the times, I think the 8 speed auto with paddles (something along the lines of the LFA) would appeal to the upscale market the NSX will be placed in.
I get what you're saying CarPhreakd, and perhaps if Honda's track record with real world hybrid applications was more solid, I wouldn't be so pessimistic. The only test case we have to go on right now with Honda "blending" hybrid technology into a sportier offering is the CRZ, which hasn't inspired a ton of confidence that they can actually 'pull off' a bonafide hybrid sports car approaching the caliber of the 918.
Keep in mind, I currently own a Civic Hybrid and previously owned another and I am very familiar with the limitations and strengths of IMA. Obviously the new NSX won't be equipped with IMA, I just hope the new system they do use proves me wrong. I want to see this car succeed, even if I personally prefer it not be a hybrid.
Is Porsche actually going to produce the 918 for the masses? I've heard both no and yes since the prototype came out.
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Hondarulez
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fladdams2k1 wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
fladdams2k1 wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
Again, the thing is, most consumers don't care about speed and driving fun, especially people who are interested in hybrids.
More specifically, when people shop for hybrids, they look for the best EPA mpg. Toyota took this route right from the beginning 15 years ago. Honda on the other hand did not want to turn their hybrid cars into appliances. They chose a system that would have the least impact to driving fun while improving fuel economy considerably.
It's obvious which type is preferred by most people. Toyota has built a very solid foundation. Not only Honda, but many other brands will have a hard time catching up.
|
Exactly! People shopping for hybrids want the best MPG, otherwise, why even bother? No one is asking Honda for a car with all the drawbacks of a hybrid and MPG that could be closely matched in a regular gas vehicle. They're also not looking for hybrid type performance in their sports cars. Not sure why Honda is intent on pushing this angle; it's obvious, at least in the States, people do NOT want their hybrids mixed with sports cars. Inevitably the result is a car that does neither thing very well.
On that point, IMO, the new NSX should NOT be a hybrid. It should be a conventional mid-engine sports coupe, with modern engine advancements. 425HP potent V6, with an 8 speed auto w/ paddles and a 3200 or less curb weight would be ideal and wouldnt need any 'help' from an electric engine.
It's a real simple business model; 1 or 2 Hybrid Honda models (ex. Fit and Civic Hybrid) that deliver stellar MPG and keep the hybrid powertrains out of the rest of the product line. One Acura hybrid is enough (ILX). Honda's sportscars (S2000 and NSX) were praised for thier simplicity and purity; adding a hybrid powertrain runs counterproductive to that philosophy.
|
IMO, Toyota successfully made most, if not all people to associate hybrids = max mpg. Honda on the other hand did not do a good job marketing its own IMA system. It freaking launched the IMA on a 2-seater. While Toyota kept making changes to the Prius, as well as expanding the line up constantly, Honda did pretty much nothing since the launch of the 1997 Insight until the Civic hybrid/Honda hybrid came out in 2005 or something. By that time, Toyota already has a substantial lead and people are already associating hybrids = appliances and max mpg.
Honda also failed to advertise that its system is very efficient without being complex in the REAL WORLD.
I don't mind NSX being a hybrid personally. NSX stands for "New Sports eXperimental." The 1st NSX can use the NSX name because it was a whole new concept for Honda. Its Honda first MR supercar. It has many technologies and innovative technologies packed in it. If the 2nd gen NSX looks to continue that trend by introducing new elements into what a modern supercar should be like. It will be one of the first supercars to have a hybrid setup. It will be one of the first supercars to have the Sports hybrid SH-AWD setup. It will also probably be the first supercar to get 30mpg combined while getting from 0-60mph in around 3 seconds. This is why it will be worthy of the NSX nameplate.
You mentioned that Honda sports cars are praised for their simplicity and purity. However, when you want a V6 that makes 425hp and/or want a 8-spd auto with paddles instead of 6MT, that's already beyond simplicity and purity IMO.
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That's an interesting point in terms of purity, and you're correct. I personally would prefer a standard manual, but in keeping with the times, I think the 8 speed auto with paddles (something along the lines of the LFA) would appeal to the upscale market the NSX will be placed in.
I get what you're saying CarPhreakd, and perhaps if Honda's track record with real world hybrid applications was more solid, I wouldn't be so pessimistic. The only test case we have to go on right now with Honda "blending" hybrid technology into a sportier offering is the CRZ, which hasn't inspired a ton of confidence that they can actually 'pull off' a bonafide hybrid sports car approaching the caliber of the 918.
Keep in mind, I currently own a Civic Hybrid and previously owned another and I am very familiar with the limitations and strengths of IMA. Obviously the new NSX won't be equipped with IMA, I just hope the new system they do use proves me wrong. I want to see this car succeed, even if I personally prefer it not be a hybrid.
Is Porsche actually going to produce the 918 for the masses? I've heard both no and yes since the prototype came out.
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I see what you mean regarding the automatic tranny. In fact, many sports cars/supercars are moving away from MT as well.
When Honda talks about simplicity and purity, it probably doesn't just mean 6MT and no technological advancement. I think it means that for every product, there should be a simple solution. Hybrid is a rather new technology, but there are both simple and more complex systems out there. Honda followed their philosophy of being simple, and introduced the IMA. For several reasons, this has not worked out. There's really no point sticking with something that isn't selling. This is where the new hybrid system and the new sports hybrid sh-awd are coming from IMO.
Current IMA offerings are weak in power output. It doesn't mean the system does not have potential to have high power. The best and only example would be the Accord hybrid. It's just as fast as a regular V6 Accord, but with around 30% improvement in fuel efficiency. Unfortunately, Honda did little to market that car. Honda did literally nothing to differentiate that model as well from the V6 Accord.
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CarPhreakD
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notyper wrote:
I disagree CarPhreakD.
Anything you're going to do with a hybrid for performance could be done lighter, cheaper and faster with a single source powertrain.
Hybrids, even in performance apps, are still about improving economy.
SC
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Yeah. Turbocharging is "still about improving economy" as well, just in a different form (it's still energy recapture). The gap behind "lighter, cheaper, and faster" can only hold true for so many years before the R&D gap shrinks, and in the future we're going to see a combination of turbocharging, advanced thermal management and hybridization to eek out every last percentage of thermal efficiency.
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