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Jovian8
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ouch! Consumer Reports has the hate for Civic again... its the first car on the list. We are keeping company with the Dodge Caravan.
http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/08/five-popular-cars-to-avoid.html
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according2kev
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That's a very interesting list.
They have a point with the interior materials, but I can't agree with the choppy ride and noisy cabin. I hope Honda doesn't soften the car even more just to please them.
Anyone notice the Civic in the picture has a different grill? The cut outs in the chrome mustache line up perfectly with the black slats below it. I guess it could be the lighting, but if so it's ironic.
 
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Midi_Amp
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What is consumer reports goal for releasing this list anyway? I'm just dumbfounded with all the hate with the Civic from CR... I test drove the new Civic in my country, aside from the godawful taillights, everything is improved, I got to drove side by side of the old and new car even.
The Prius C, it's Yaris based Prius with price to match and fuel efficiency to brag about. I won't care one bit if it had cardboard dash lining with mildew and shit (literally), just wear a glove and gas mask, the real world mileage return is just worth it, something I hope Honda can deliver on the next Insight, Fit hybrid and the likes.
Can't say about the rest, but the hate is just weird...
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FiSH-Chan
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On top of that, if interior material, vague steering & choppy ride is the reason to stay 'avoid', they forgot the Corolla and many other models that also show those problems.
I drove the ASEAN version, I can't see ANY reason other than a few pieces of plastic pieces to avoid the car (and maybe the NAVI-that is optional). The US version might have a different headliner, no cupholder covers and sliding armrest, weird bumpers, donut tires and single light on the plate, but those are hardly reasons to AVOID the car. You might want to ask buyers to check out the competition is offering, but telling people to avoid it is just silly. Then they admit it's reliable. (maybe that's the ONLY reason people buy them??)
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TonyEX
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I honestly think that Consumer Reports broke their own rules with the Civic. They knocked it down on "perception|value" issues not on straight forward physical and measurable issues.
However, as many such authority figures they can not walk back their error lest they lose their authority.
And so, as the old say goes, now they have to cover up their original lie with even more lies.
It must really grate CR that the Civic is selling so well, because pretty much the people who buy these things are the same ones who buy Consumer Reports and suddenly they are seeing the lie.
Pretty much CR is diminishing their aura of authority as their opinion is being ignored by their own readers.
Watch! Next year, when the early MMC Civic comes out, CR will instantly recommend it and state "We told you so!"....
Unfortunately for them, some 300,000++ consumers will know that CR really blew on this and did not owe up to their mistake.
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TonyEX
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Midi_Amp wrote:
What is consumer reports goal for releasing this list anyway? I'm just dumbfounded with all the hate with the Civic from CR... I test drove the new Civic in my country, aside from the godawful taillights, everything is improved, I got to drove side by side of the old and new car even.
The Prius C, it's Yaris based Prius with price to match and fuel efficiency to brag about. I won't care one bit if it had cardboard dash lining with mildew and shit (literally), just wear a glove and gas mask, the real world mileage return is just worth it, something I hope Honda can deliver on the next Insight, Fit hybrid and the likes.
Can't say about the rest, but the hate is just weird...
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Their "hate" is driven because its readers are ignoring the advice and buying the car in droves.
It must eke them that they are being ignored. How dare consumers do that to them?
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FiSH-Chan
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Midi_Amp wrote:
What is consumer reports goal for releasing this list anyway? I'm just dumbfounded with all the hate with the Civic from CR... I test drove the new Civic in my country, aside from the godawful taillights, everything is improved, I got to drove side by side of the old and new car even. |
I wrote about my impressions of one here :
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1081273
care to compare notes for the ASEAN version?
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sadlerau
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Went to pick up some parts from my local dealer yesterday and had a sit in the new Euro Civic Hatch. Generally thought it ok, nothing special, but I didn't like the interior and especially the flow of the dash down into the centre stack. Then sat in the Civic sedan, and thought it actually looked more up-market than the Euro version, other than the gaudy seat material in the Sedan!
In retrospect I must say I am NOT a fan of the Hatch at all. Front looks ok, but it just looks fat [there I said it!] and that rear rump - yuk!!!!
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A77
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CR has no credibility. Their choppy ride claim is just wrong. None of the cars listed beat it in fuel economy. By all accounts, except theirs, it rides better and is more refined than its predecessor. It handles and steers and rides far better than the Elantra. Or the simply crap Corolla. Sure its interior is mediocre - so are other cars they recommend wholeheartedly. Like our own Fit. Which they suggest people buy instead of a Prius C, which they criticize for its cheap interior and noisy ride. All makes no sense.
Dodge G Caravan was third best selling vehcile in canada. Honda was top selling car. Edge outsold the CRv last month! People are ignoring CR it would seem. I have always thought they wrote shit about other interests of mine - cameras, and stereo equipment and had some of the most bizarre rating criteria ever. Now they have lost the car credibility. They are a business interested in selling copy. Sensationalism and controversy sells. In the short term. Even some of their reliability ratings are suspect, as they fail to take into account demographic expectation and driving habits. Its why the old Regal did so well. Its only bought by 90 year olds who drive at 5 mph and wouldnt know if half the gears didnt work.
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Midi_Amp
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
What is consumer reports goal for releasing this list anyway? I'm just dumbfounded with all the hate with the Civic from CR... I test drove the new Civic in my country, aside from the godawful taillights, everything is improved, I got to drove side by side of the old and new car even. |
I wrote about my impressions of one here :
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1081273
care to compare notes for the ASEAN version?
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I'm 100% with your experience, the ride is smooth and quiet. I tried going WOT on the R20, since that's the model I test, and it's noticeably quieter than the K20. I don't know much about the feel, but it feels to pick up speed faster than the K20 (perhaps something to do with more torque down low). The K20 has that distinct snarl and more push up top, and I feel the R20 doesn't push much after 5000 rpm (I use D3)... Maybe the sound deadening material is improved on the new Civic, or because the old Civic soundproofing already gave away, hard to tell.
Still... The car is better than the outgoing model. Yesterday I was driving on the intercity highway and saw a 9th gen Civic going fast past by me... Seeing it goes fast like that, suddenly I fell in love. Some cars looks fast standing still, but the new Civic looks fast standing still and faster going fast (I hope I make sense), real world 3/4 view is just awesome (minus the old Camry taillight).
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Midi_Amp
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TonyE wrote:
I honestly think that Consumer Reports broke their own rules with the Civic. They knocked it down on "perception|value" issues not on straight forward physical and measurable issues.
However, as many such authority figures they can not walk back their error lest they lose their authority.
And so, as the old say goes, now they have to cover up their original lie with even more lies.
It must really grate CR that the Civic is selling so well, because pretty much the people who buy these things are the same ones who buy Consumer Reports and suddenly they are seeing the lie.
Pretty much CR is diminishing their aura of authority as their opinion is being ignored by their own readers.
Watch! Next year, when the early MMC Civic comes out, CR will instantly recommend it and state "We told you so!"....
Unfortunately for them, some 300,000++ consumers will know that CR really blew on this and did not owe up to their mistake.
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Got your point there.
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FiSH-Chan
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Midi_Amp wrote:
Still... The car is better than the outgoing model. Yesterday I was driving on the intercity highway and saw a 9th gen Civic going fast past by me... Seeing it goes fast like that, suddenly I fell in love. Some cars looks fast standing still, but the new Civic looks fast standing still and faster going fast (I hope I make sense), real world 3/4 view is just awesome (minus the old Camry taillight).
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Yup, that is my overall impression the car is better in many ways. The ride is so smooth and doesn't thump over holes like the old one... in fact I don't think I have never been in a car with such as smooth ride. I don't think there is noticeable sway or lean either but I just only took *one* fast corner, and I forgot to check the speed.
The stuff that I nitpick are not very big issues anyway and all are my own opinions (like with the IMID)
About seeing the 9th gen on the road, there's about a handful of them on the roads now in my town in such a short time, and seeing one on the roads moving it does look very business going fast (even when I was overtaking one)! The 3/4 view is pretty good, I'm okay with the tailight but the extra bit on the trunklid seems a little bit out of place.
..and as usual for a Honda, in white it looks very, very striking, especially the 2.0 with those wheels and with the modulo grill.
Oh, the 2.0 in your region don't have paddles?
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WongKN
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I just had the 9G HCH over a four days period for my 'media review' loan. I was supposed to take the Jazz Hybrid but they had some mechanical problems with the media unit and as I had to miss out on the 9G Civic media drive event due to a schedule clash, Honda thoughtfully substituted the HCH for me for an early review.
The gist is while I would share the general feeling that CR is not doing a terribly good job, but I also will not share the general feeling that the 9G Civic is all that great. Not the HCH anyway. The HCH as sold in Malaysia is a -fantastic- package. This is very true. For just slightly more than the 1.8 Civic, it offers full leather interior, full keyless entry, and a lot of features. The car is CBU from Japan. Its price-value package is quite unbeatable.
However, having heaped this praise, I have to say that I can also understand the complaints about 'choppy ride' and 'lack of power', at least for the HCH. I think it all has to do with expectations. As a long time Honda fanatic, I think the ride quality is fine. The suspension is a bit firm but in returns it gives reasonably good handling despite a tendency to roll too much. However, this is put into perspective when I offered to let my boss have a quick drive as he is interested in getting one as upgrade for his previous gen Nissan Sentra SE-R (with the 110ps 1.6l DOHC engine). His comment was the HCH suspension was 'hard'. Over less than prestine road, the HCH can bounce about a bit. And due to a firmer than average spring rate, this bouncing can be slightly jarring to the person whose standard and expectation has been set by soft cars like the Nissan Sentra or Toyota (Corolla) Altis. So the issue about choppy ride, to me, simply depends on where the person making the comment is coming from. The only cavert here is the issue about double standards. If the HCH is considered to have a 'choppy ride', that means CR in this case, is using soft rubbery suspensions from the likes of Senta, Corolla Altis, etc as their benchmark for a 'good ride'. Given this, then the road handling of the HCH will -have- to be considered as superlative since by comparison, the Sentra and Corolla Altis floats like a boat.
Similarly, the HCH with its new 1.5l IMA engine offers tremendous performance - even straight line - over the older 1.3l 8G HCH. And in the low-end rpm region, I suspect (as I have not tested the 9G 1.8 Civic yet), it should outdo even the 9G 1.8 Civic. But again, for the long term Honda fan, especially those who are used to legends like the BSeries (esp B16A, B16B, B18C, B18CR) or KSeries, the HCH -do- have a very weak top-end. This was glaringly revealed when I took it on my 'Genting run', an uphill drive full of sharp hairpins. After the initial grunt thanks to the IMA assist, the HCH really tapers out too much. In a situation where pick-up over an extended run, e.g. the need to pickup -fast- to 120kph (75mph) or higher, the truth is the 9G HCH -is- slow.
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FiSH-Chan
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WongKN wrote:
However, having heaped this praise, I have to say that I can also understand the complaints about 'choppy ride' and 'lack of power', at least for the HCH. I think it all has to do with expectations. As a long time Honda fanatic, I think the ride quality is fine. The suspension is a bit firm but in returns it gives reasonably good handling despite a tendency to roll too much. However, this is put into perspective when I offered to let my boss have a quick drive as he is interested in getting one as upgrade for his previous gen Nissan Sentra SE-R (with the 110ps 1.6l DOHC engine). His comment was the HCH suspension was 'hard'. Over less than prestine road, the HCH can bounce about a bit. And due to a firmer than average spring rate, this bouncing can be slightly jarring to the person whose standard and expectation has been set by soft cars like the Nissan Sentra or Toyota (Corolla) Altis. So the issue about choppy ride, to me, simply depends on where the person making the comment is coming from. The only cavert here is the issue about double standards. If the HCH is considered to have a 'choppy ride', that means CR in this case, is using soft rubbery suspensions from the likes of Senta, Corolla Altis, etc as their benchmark for a 'good ride'. Given this, then the road handling of the HCH will -have- to be considered as superlative since by comparison, the Sentra and Corolla Altis floats like a boat. |
Hmm, about the choppy ride, you may be right about the expectations of some people, but as stated by others, the Fit's ride quality will be far 'worse' when compared others, and the interior material isn't exactly luxury class, and steering isn't as good as it should be, and yet CR recommended it. So CR is being very annoyingly inconsistent and the 'choppy ride' and 'bad interior' as excuse to not buy what they say is a reliable car is already baseless, I really can't find any really good reason to prevent normal people from getting a new Civic, but yet CR thinks that is the case.
Also, I have sit in the Corolla Altis (the current one before its dual VVTi MMC), while the suspension is soft and cushy floaty cloud 9, but it is still feels 'choppy' over some roads, just because of the torsion beam. You will feel the rumble strip over certain roads or try going fast over a speed bump there is a up-down motion that is always with torsion beam... that is what my opinion of 'choppy'.
Haven't driven or even seen up close one but I suspect the HCH is supposed to be the softer suspension one (it seems like it for the 8th gen), so maybe they did something to the suspension for the extra battery and with the tires for our version... well it is a totally subjective matter there in this case
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superchg2
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TonyE wrote:
I honestly think that Consumer Reports broke their own rules with the Civic. They knocked it down on "perception/value" issues not on straight forward physical and measurable issues.
However, as many such authority figures they can not walk back their error lest they lose their authority.
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Agreed!
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nj
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Does this really suprise anyone? Come on now. I know this is a Honda forum, so there will be plenty of knights out to defend the Civic, but the Civic has really taken a turn for the worse. It's spot on the list makes perfect sense. It's the most popular compact in the segment, yet it's completely mediocre! Seriously, it's been cheapened inside and out. Road noise IS a problem. The handling has been numbed-down. It's not as rev-happy. Why on earth would anyone get a civic over a Focus? Or a Sonic? Or an Elentra? Or anything else in the segment? All of these competitors offer more for the money and up-to-date features. Honda could have justified the cheapening if they had just followed the Jetta and cut the price. The blantant bias here is astounding...
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Grace141
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Six months ago I test drove a Civic EX-L sedan (US model so 5AT) and thought the car felt well controlled, it tracked nice and straight on the freeway, it had a decent ride quality about it, and it kept its composure under braking. Compared to my '04 Accord V6 sedan the Civic felt more substantial over bumps (the Accord can show a jitterly feeling at times). I guess I should have checked out an LX sedan. It's possible CR was driving their LX with the Firestone tires inflated to their maximum PSI or something.
Also, years ago I upgraded the wheel/tire combo on a car I owned with a +1 set going with a lower aspect performance tire thinking I'd get more directional stability. I did get that stability but the car lost a lot of it's lively nature and simply felt underpowered, a bit dead. Too much tire, in other words. I wonder if the LX Civic on its 15's is a case of the reverse of my results? CR was expecting something like the EX or the 8th gen Civic but what they got was a 9th gen Civic LX that felt a lot more lively. Add to that the low rolling resistance tires and you might get a lot less traction but more fun. Maybe CR nailed their review but that about which they complained is what is prompting people to buy the car. Most of the '12 Civics I've seen have been LX sedans.
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WongKN
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With regards to the popularity of the 9G Civic in terms of sales numbers, it would be interesting to see how many of them are 'loyalty sales', i.e. purchases by Honda owners and/or fans (it is not hard to understand why a Honda fan would still buy the 9G Civic as it has its strengths). I do believe quite strongly that from the perspective of a Honda fan and our expectations, the Civic's ride is fine and I suspect many of us might even be happy with a firmer suspension which would give better driving dynamics but a more 'choppy ride'. And that CR is really coming from the angle of a Corolla kind of ride.
Either this or perhaps there is a new editor at CR who wants to 'show power'. I have seen this happen and I myself was almost a victim of this sort of ego driven zealousness. Bash a Honda model just to teach Honda how 'powerful'/influential I can be so that they will treat me like god the next time we meet. I am happy that I didn't give in to the temptation, but also was clear headed enough to foresee that such a move, driven by an ulterior motive and not hard facts, will backfire and readers are intelligent people and they see through all these shananigans, as is what is happening to the CR action now.
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superchg2
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nj wrote:
The blantant bias here is astounding...
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nj, spell check is your friend!
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Towelman
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If I'm remembering correctly, CR does not recommend the new Focus because of reliability issues, but then - they say the Civic is the one to avoid . . . ?
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FiSH-Chan
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Towelman wrote:
If I'm remembering correctly, CR does not recommend the new Focus because of reliability issues, but then - they say the Civic is the one to avoid . . . ?
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I remember (if im not mistaken) also they recommended the US Civic Si as well (which is really a lot of the reason that model that is really getting thrashed on TOV), but now they are saying the opposite for the 'Civic' overall models again without excepting the Si, haha.
Well in the end, Honda is making major changes, it's all good in the end anyway.
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nj
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superchg2 wrote:
nj wrote:
The blantant bias here is astounding...
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nj, spell check is your friend!
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Haha it is. Unfortunately Internet Explorer doesn't come with spellcheck... or at least the one I'm using at work here doesn't. I think you'll find my comments made from my home computer using chrome are more cohesive.
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superchg2
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nj wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
nj wrote:
The blantant bias here is astounding...
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nj, spell check is your friend!
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Haha it is. Unfortunately Internet Explorer doesn't come with spellcheck... or at least the one I'm using at work here doesn't. I think you'll find my comments made from my home computer using chrome are more cohesive.
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What part of Joisey are you from? My Dad was born and raised in Patterson.
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superchg2
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nj wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
nj wrote:
The blantant bias here is astounding...
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nj, spell check is your friend!
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Haha it is. Unfortunately Internet Explorer doesn't come with spellcheck... or at least the one I'm using at work here doesn't. I think you'll find my comments made from my home computer using chrome are more cohesive.
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What part of Joisey are you from? My Dad was born and raised in Paterson.
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A77
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WongKN wrote:
Similarly, the HCH with its new 1.5l IMA engine offers tremendous performance - even straight line - over the older 1.3l 8G HCH. And in the low-end rpm region, I suspect (as I have not tested the 9G 1.8 Civic yet), it should outdo even the 9G 1.8 Civic. But again, for the long term Honda fan, especially those who are used to legends like the BSeries (esp B16A, B16B, B18C, B18CR) or KSeries, the HCH -do- have a very weak top-end. This was glaringly revealed when I took it on my 'Genting run', an uphill drive full of sharp hairpins. After the initial grunt thanks to the IMA assist, the HCH really tapers out too much. In a situation where pick-up over an extended run, e.g. the need to pickup -fast- to 120kph (75mph) or higher, the truth is the 9G HCH -is- slow.
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I think i have commented before on the Genting Run. I can't immediately think of any journey that would be more likely to illustrate the inherent problems with a hybrid set up. Before you get to the fairly steep twisty climb on the genting road itself there a long steady and deceivingly steep climb on the main (it was four lanes even in the 70s) road to Kuantan. So by the time you even reach the genting turn off I can't imagine the battery being anything less than dead. You then have a long twisty climb with minimal opportunity for regenerative braking, at increasing altitude still needing air conditioning (not near the top if its cloudy). So on say the old HCH you'd really be generating less than 90hp in quite a heavy car...would be wheezing and screaming its way to the top. In the kind of condition a turbo diesel would revel in. Then again the way down would be free! and the brakes probably wouldn't give out like my old Escort's did...
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FiSH-Chan
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A77 wrote:
I think i have commented before on the Genting Run. I can't immediately think of any journey that would be more likely to illustrate the inherent problems with a hybrid set up. Before you get to the fairly steep twisty climb on the genting road itself there a long steady and deceivingly steep climb on the main (it was four lanes even in the 70s) road to Kuantan. So by the time you even reach the genting turn off I can't imagine the battery being anything less than dead. You then have a long twisty climb with minimal opportunity for regenerative braking, at increasing altitude still needing air conditioning (not near the top if its cloudy). So on say the old HCH you'd really be generating less than 90hp in quite a heavy car...would be wheezing and screaming its way to the top. In the kind of condition a turbo diesel would revel in. Then again the way down would be free! and the brakes probably wouldn't give out like my old Escort's did...
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The Genting run would be the real test for a HCH. Although I have been there, to be honest I don't remember how we got up there when I was there 15 years ago, I just remember the stuff that is on top! Anyway, in my town, it is relatively flat but there are lots of traffic and such (and only one stupid proper road connecting everything), I figured the 8th gen HCH would make more sense here than in any other. After all sitting in the traffic jam draining the batteries at least one hour, the smaller the engine the better (well at least you get a big car with it)... I wonder how a Prius with the 'big' 1.8 handles that kind of environment? None of my friends has a Prius (although a neighbor has one, but I don't know them) otherwise I can have an idea of how much they are actually saving.
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mac_powah
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Ok, OK, I can see CR saying something about the quality of materials that were chosen, but to say to AVOID the Civic is absolutely insane! Avoid?! What, is the Civic all of the sudden on the same playing field as the new for 1995 Chevrolet Cavalier, or new for 2000 Ford Focus? Seroiusly? I have to tell you that I test drove a 2012 Civic EX-L and I was impressed with its "grown up" feel. OMG - this is still a Honda Civic. Then again, I can afford a much more expensive car, so it really doesn't bother me what kind of materials would be in my 2nd car (should I choose a Civic), and the only thing on the inside that bothered me was the plastic door panels. It really comes down to the interior with CR - they are being bullies about it. Go buy the Elantra, then...it now looks terribly dated and drives like a sofa on wheels (so I hear, I have yet to drive one). In Canada btw, the Civic LX comes very well equipped for basically the same price as an Elantra GL (maybe even less!). Yeah, I would still go Civic. I am a CR reader, but I find this "avoid" comment extremely uncalled for and quite frankly annoying to the point that I won't be reading the magazine anymore.
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mac_powah
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They also purposly chose an awful view of the Civic to make it look like a devil child.
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WongKN
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Genting run. It won't do anything I suspect but during the launch of the Jazz Hybrid, I had a rather long chat with the design engineers (from Tochigi Japan) and I was telling them that I feel they should add an important feature in their IMA which is a setting to control the use of the IMA assist/charging. Basically I was suggesting a feature to allow the ability to dail in a variable amount of assist and charge, or even none or max assist, or enable force charging until the battery is full or at whatever level I target. It would offer the kind of flexibility and control paddle shifters gives to the standard automatic gearbox for e.g. I told them about the layout of the Genting run but they didn't understood what I was trying to say. Then I showed them photos of the initial part of the Karak highway, they said 'OK' and then I showed them photos of the hairpins of the Genting road proper. They said 'Ah!', that they understood what I meant. But from my experience, that doesn't mean they will do anything. But at least I got my message through.
When I took the HCH up to the Genting run, I was driving like a cissy on the left most (slowest) lane (for RHD countries) on the Karak highway before getting to the Genting access road. But it was a frustrating drive as IMA assist cuts in on the simplest of 'excuse'. If I allowed it, the ECU will initiate mild IMA assist all the way to the entrance to the Genting road proper. And based on experience with the CR-Z, that would have drained the battery till as low as half-charge. So I was playing around with the settings (D, ECON on and off, and S) and also the throttle and I found a method where only the engine was running. But I was at the risk of being rear ended by the heavy vehicles who were sharing the same lane as me and who were actually going up -faster- than me.
Once in the Genting road proper, again like the CR-Z, it took just a few corners before the battery charge drains down to 30% or less.
The Genting access road has been upgraded and there is a new uphill section which has gentler gradients, then actually a section of downhill roads before joining to the original road which has the hairpins. So I was able to recharge the battery to almost full before I reach the hairpins.
At the hairpins, there are two main issues. Firstly the IMA assist is not held at maximum and after a short period of max assist, the ECU tapers it off rather quickly. So it means I was able to take the hairpin itself quite well, in fact overtaking most vehicles, sometimes on the inside lane too. But once past the hairpin, I wasn't able to 'blast' my way up the incline. At WOT, the assist is reduced so much a short distance after that there is practically no assist. So once past the hairpin, I was able to accelerate up to 70kph and basically the HCH would labour to go any faster.
Eventually, and rather quickly, the battery charge went down to less than 50% and there was really little to no assist after that. As expected, it was a pain to drive the 9G HCH from that point on.
In the end, it is important to put things into perspective. Should I focus and harp on the performance of the HCH over the Genting run ? Just -how- many HCH owners and -how many times- would they go up Genting ? I suppose the gambling addict among them would make regular, probably weekly trips up. But how representative will the Genting run be to the general driving demands a HCH owner would encounter daily ?
As a responsible 'motoring journalist', it is my responsibility to be as fair as possible, and be very clear and upfront with my own set of priorities, preferences and prejudices, and report in such as way that I allow my readers to make their own informed, intelligent decision. For this reason, I always think that 'recommended' or 'not recommended' conclusions in a review is useless, because when I read a review, I really don't give a shit if the reviewer likes it or not but I want to get information to help me make my own decision. From my own, probably biased, point of view, it seems to me that this is what is severely lacking from CR at this point, on the 9G Civic.
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A77
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Karak Highway...
new genting road?
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