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MarkR
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I'm amazed by everyone who defend Honda by financial figures, sales figures etc.
Financial performance of the company and how pleasant the car is to drive&own is totally different, why mix up both.
When you sit in your new Honda with 150hp and meager torque and cheap suspension, do you coyly smile at the soccer mom in her Cadillac ATS because Honda is in better financial shape? You know what, she will have a more pleasant drive and leave you in the dust.
The logic people have is, yes, I love this car, millions of poor in developing countries are buying it, haha you st*pid soccer mom, your Golf GTI doesn't make VW as much margins as my lovely Honda! Yes, my Honda is super slow, but it feels good to be able to support Honda with good margins.
hahah... oh, just disregard the above, but it amazes me how people mix up the product and financials. Boy racer XYZ who just lost in acceleration to a old man in a Volvo probably screams to him "Yo, old man, corp margins just kicked in!"
Of course companies need to be financially sound/strong to keep outputting good products, but this is ridicilous.
Audi S4 :)
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dampflok
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If making straw-man arguments were an Olympic sport, you'd be a gold-medal contender.
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nj
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Uhh I don't think it works this way. Honda owners don't think they're ar is superior because the company is bigger. Your analogies to the ATS and GTI are pretty lame. I think any sensible person in a Honda would look over and drool with envy.
There are the regular sheep who buy because the brand has a good reputation (Honda and Toyota on top) but a superiority complex based on supporting the corporation? Not so.
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superchg2
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You are preaching to the choir.
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P54
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People are buying Honda because they make good cars or products in general. That they are financially sound is a result of that but not the reason why people buy Honda.
Back in the early 70's I think Volvo and Honda made same amount of cars even though Honda was just a kid when Volvo started. Now 40 years later Volvo makes about the same amount while Honda makes about 10 times as much.
Ford bought Volvo for 6-7 billion dollars, tapped it for technology that Ford wanted then sold the leftover to the Chinese for less than 2 billion. GM did the same with Saab, took out what they wanted and trashed the rest.
Before Ford acquired Volvo they tried to get into Honda. If they had succeeded Honda would have been gone by now.
For reasons mentioned above it is VERY IMPORTANT that Honda is financially sound. And being that will ensure they come out with class leading vehicles with great quality. To many predators out there that wants to acquire sound companies, steal their technology and leave it for dead when their goal is accomplished.
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notyper
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You guys are missing his point. He's talking about people who attempt to deflect criticism of Honda's vehicles by pointing out how well they sell or how Honda is doing financially.
A good selling vehicle != a good car. You can sell well for any number of reasons. Reputation, price, styling, etc. Thus, criticism of a car like the Civic for cheap interior, lack of modern powertrain tech, neutered handling, etc. can not be mitigated by saying, "well, it's selling great".
SC
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JMU R1
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The real danger with a car that is selling well despite itself is that it engenders complacency and could potentially blind the company to the growing threat from quickly improving competitors.
Honda has built up a well-deserved reputation and because of that reputation Honda was not hurt as badly by some of its missteps as it could have been. It's great that the powers that be at Honda are reacting to the criticisms of the Civic, but there are many other challenges awaiting.
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dampflok
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notyper wrote:
You guys are missing his point. He's talking about people who attempt to deflect criticism of Honda's vehicles by pointing out how well they sell or how Honda is doing financially.
A good selling vehicle != a good car. You can sell well for any number of reasons. Reputation, price, styling, etc. Thus, criticism of a car like the Civic for cheap interior, lack of modern powertrain tech, neutered handling, etc. can not be mitigated by saying, "well, it's selling great".
SC
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I agree a vehicle that sells well is not necessarily a vehicle that performs well. If that's all he was trying to say, he certainly chose a puerile way to do it. But it works the other way too. When Honda comes out with a vehicle that's less than stellar, there are posters here (not you, SC) who proclaim that the vehicle will be a sales failure, that Honda is doomed as a company, that management are so incompetent they couldn't sell ice water in hell, etc. I won't deny that the current Civic, for instance, seems to have some serious shortcomings. But I also won't deny that Honda as a whole seems to be a well-run company with solid financial results, both past and present.
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superchg2
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I got his point. However, it's hard to imagine why anyone would ever buy a car using that kind of reasoning
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MarkR
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You are all right.
I was not saying people are buying cars because of strong balance sheets.
I said I am surprised how many car enthusiasts are defending Honda products buy sales figures&financials, as a car enthusiast I don't care about the company, I car about the product I can buy.
I do car for the company I work for, because they give me buying power to buy a car from a car company.
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MarkR
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dampflok wrote:
who proclaim that the vehicle will be a sales failure, that Honda is doomed as a company, that management are so incompetent they couldn't sell ice water in hell, etc. I won't deny that the current Civic, for instance, seems to have some serious shortcomings. But I also won't deny that Honda as a whole seems to be a well-run company with solid financial results, both past and present.
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I have never claimed management is bad, they are Superb! since they create superb value for shareholders. It's just that shareholder value is not the same as a "inspiring car for a car enthusiast". Honda is probably among the best run companies in the world! (but that doesn't equal that they make class leading products any longer)
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CR-V9
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| I have never claimed management is bad, they are Superb! since they create superb value for shareholders. |
Though I do understand you'd want an inspiring enthusiast's car. You could always get an Audi A4 from your brother in law though.
Some of us, maybe few, look at Honda differently, too. I personally look at their SuperCub as Honda. SuperCub was designed for a noodle deliveryman who'd carry a big wooden container box in his one hand and drive his SuperCub in his other hand.
And SuperCub defined Honda, or Fujisawa and Soichiro's Honda. So Honda has shiffted their priories to make cheap/inexpensive cars and motor cycles for developed countries is not far away from their old Honda, I think.
Honda makes cars for everyday people for everyday use. People have different needs and wants. There is no one best car for everbody. Some buy a Civic because it meets their needs and wants, including reliability to price. People buy on reputation, too. Then again it takes a long time to build it and earn it. It takes one day to ruin your reputation but takes years to build it, right?
So some of us or I just don't look at their NSX or TypeR or Si alone to define them. I look at CRZ, Insight. Hybrids interests me as much as thier new ED engines. I like to see their new thchnologies. I'm still waiting to see if they're really using that laser(?)...ionised(?)...atomised(?) finish on engine cylinder walls for their everday Civic ED engines. I look at Asimo, too.
Since I can't afford to buy any Acura new. I'd rather see Honda in their CR-Z GT. It's more interesting to me.
However having said so, it seems they have shiftted their product decisions to each regions more and more. So I don't know. Maybe there will be some hopes some day.
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dampflok
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MarkR wrote:
I have never claimed management is bad, they are Superb! since they create superb value for shareholders. It's just that shareholder value is not the same as a "inspiring car for a car enthusiast". Honda is probably among the best run companies in the world! (but that doesn't equal that they make class leading products any longer) |
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Grace141
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MarkR, you make a valid point. I've found the information here on Honda's financial performance interesting because I'm fascinated by business in general and I believe Honda has a very tough road to travel. Corporate Honda has kept itself profitable but the automotive sector has had its problems for several years now. Moving production of many of its cars for North American out of Japan has been very important and the fact that very few of the Honda cars now sold in the US are actually made in Japan is striking. All of that said, I couldn't care less about Honda's financials while I'm driving my Honda car - they're irrelevant in that environment and gladly so.
You mentioned the soccer mom driving the new ATS. Whenever I see folks driving cars normally considered to be driver's cars, and the ATS looks like it qualifies, I wonder whether they truly appreciate driving or if they are just interested in the image. I'm sure a lot of BMW buyers have never heard of the Nurburgring but that's certainly okay. The percentage of the American driving public which has completed a Skip Barber class or something similar must be so small as to be unnoticeable but still, why do people buy cars like the 3-series and ATS? For that matter, why does the typical Honda owner buy a Honda?
Finally, your comment about power and torque. I often think of the term "balance" to describe what I think the best combination for any given car should be but it's purely subjective. The Honda of old that so many people seem to want to return used a specific engine for each car line with some cars using a different engine for each model trim level, with the range of power across those engines at times being less than 20 HP. With the K24 engines in a variety of specs used so commonly across the Honda/Acura range today it's a different world for Honda but they do still seem to be focused on building cars that are properly balanced for their intended use.
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CarPhreakD
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Financial figures don't really have much to do with "car attractiveness", does it? VW makes tons of money and owns Lamborghini, Audi, and Porsche.
Toyota is the other juggernaut, and number of interesting cars?
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garoto628
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notyper wrote:
You guys are missing his point. He's talking about people who attempt to deflect criticism of Honda's vehicles by pointing out how well they sell or how Honda is doing financially.
A good selling vehicle != a good car. You can sell well for any number of reasons. Reputation, price, styling, etc. Thus, criticism of a car like the Civic for cheap interior, lack of modern powertrain tech, neutered handling, etc. can not be mitigated by saying, "well, it's selling great".
SC
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I agree. However, overtime, if Homda keeps making the same mistakes and the industry keeps moving ahead, sales figures will be a reflection of that. (the reason why they're correcting the '13 civic I suppose).
Some cars are really attractive and don't sell we'll at all, (ZDX). Consumers aren't dumb, I love it when I walk into a sales department and I see a salesman feeding a consumer a load of crap and the costumer just starts taking a few steps back, body language saying, yeah, I'm going elsewhere.
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