|
|
|
|
 |
THX17201
 |
|
danielgr wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Not to mention the fact that the 1stGen TSX had no 2ndGen i4 TSX sitting on the dealer lots alongside itself. Ah... sorry, forgot the same people that buried the ILX before it was born tend to think the TSX is a much better deal, so I guess that is totally unrelated when considering 1stGen TSX vs. ILX initial sales performance...
|
You conveniently left out the fact that the original TSX also had to sell along side the RSX to skew your data...
|
Damn, you are so right !!! ... and I forgot to mention that Honda was selling the NSX as well..., now that certainly skews the data;
massive overlap I can see between a small coupe that never really got "Acura luxury" (starting below 20K with a 2.0L 5MT and topping around 23K with a high-revving 2.0L 6MT) and the 1st gen Acura TSX sports Sedan. Actually, now that you say it I clearly remember this board clamoring the TSX made absolute no sense at the time because of strong overlap with the RSX ...
Got me !!!!
|
Your attempt at diverting the attention by needlessly making a ridiculous comparison to the NSX fails. The TSX and RSX were like cousins and appealed to the same type of customer and were in similar price ranges. The point is that those two cars could cannibalize sales from each other much like the TSX and ILX can now.
Your argument was that the ILX has lower sales out of the gate because it has competition competition out of the gate from the TSX, inferring that the original TSX was all alone to get many sales. This is incorrect and flawed logic, you would fit in working at Honda...
|
atomiclightbulb
|
|
Colin wrote:
TonyE wrote:
The TSX was very well received in NA.
|
Eventually. I seem to recall lots of gasps when the $27K price was announced. Many said 'why buy this when I can get a V-6 TL for only $2K more" How quickly we forget.
Also, don't forget how the current TSX was blasted when it came out. I recall... "too bloated" with "numb EPS", "no exhaust VTEC" and "they showed the Sports 4 and we got this?" Funny how "beloved" it is now.
|
I don't get it either. The current TSX sedan is heavy (in the 3300-3400 lbs range), has chunky styling, and still has the numb EPS. To me, its MY2009 debut represents the start of Honda/Acura's decline into oversized cars with less-than-stellar handling. I never liked the 2G TSX much, except for the wagon, and I still don't like it today. It's too un-Honda, and directly contrary to the character of the 1G TSX.
The ILX is much lighter, has nearly the same interior space, and has a dash layout that is a bit nicer. The current generation EPS is much better according to Jeff.
What does all this controversy say to me? That a good percentage of ToV members are idiots. But we knew that already.
|
DrWhiner
|
|
98EX4cyl wrote:
I wouldn't swear by it but it could be an indicator.
Using Cars.com figures for comparison:
ILX (inventory/july sales) 3.82
Accord (inventory/july sales) 1.29
CRV (inventory/july sales) 0.56
RDX (inventory/july sales) 0.76
ZDX (inventory/july sales) 2.74
|
I found the vehicles picked by you weird, to say the least. Are you biased? How about TL & TSX???
TL 3.27
TSX 3.11
So comparing with TL and TSX, ILX seems not too far off.
I would also like to see the inventory level at the beginning of the month, was it significantly lower? If so, it would definitely affect how many can be delivered during the month.
Colin wrote:
You are correct, it did cause a "stop sale" for the ILX. However, it didn't affect the total number of sales for us, it just delayed the deliveries of the cars already sold. This is not to say that other dealers didn't have sales pushed back into this month if they were unable to get the necessary repair parts.
|
Was the sales number reported by Honda and other automakers sales delivered or just sales (including those undelivered)?
|
CarPhreakD
|
|
|
The 2G TSX isn't as well loved as the 1st gen... but frankly I feel it's a better car than the ILX in many ways, betrayed only by its aging. The fact that there was a TSX wagon DID make it significantly cooler in my eyes... right up until I learned that Honda didn't make the 6MT an option.
|
Colin
|
|
DrWhiner wrote:
98EX4cyl wrote:
I wouldn't swear by it but it could be an indicator.
Using Cars.com figures for comparison:
ILX (inventory/july sales) 3.82
Accord (inventory/july sales) 1.29
CRV (inventory/july sales) 0.56
RDX (inventory/july sales) 0.76
ZDX (inventory/july sales) 2.74
|
I found the vehicles picked by you weird, to say the least. Are you biased? How about TL & TSX???
TL 3.27
TSX 3.11
So comparing with TL and TSX, ILX seems not too far off.
I would also like to see the inventory level at the beginning of the month, was it significantly lower? If so, it would definitely affect how many can be delivered during the month.
Colin wrote:
You are correct, it did cause a "stop sale" for the ILX. However, it didn't affect the total number of sales for us, it just delayed the deliveries of the cars already sold. This is not to say that other dealers didn't have sales pushed back into this month if they were unable to get the necessary repair parts.
|
Was the sales number reported by Honda and other automakers sales delivered or just sales (including those undelivered)?
|
I'm quite sure that for Honda it is cars delivered. It's the only way they can actually keep track of them. when a dealer delivers a car they perform what is called a "retail delivery registration" (RDR). This notifies Honda of the new owners name and removes the VIN from our computerized inventory. It is also how they calculate sales performance to allocate dealer inventories.
|
CarmB
|
|
A point of clarification. When Honda talks of selling 40,000 ILXs, is that 40,000 total ILXs or 40,000 ILXs in the US market only.
We Canadians tend to prefer our cars a little lower in price and smaller in size than our neighbours to the south. The ILX will sell in the thousands in this market and even if the US market doesn't hit the 40,000 mark, it could well be that when adding in sales in Canada, that number might just be doable.
Then again, I haven't heard specifically if Acura is talking US only or the North American market which is the only one, as far as I know, that the Acura brand is offered to.
Does anyone know, for certain, what that 40,000 figure is referring to?
|
Colin
|
|
CarmB wrote:
A point of clarification. When Honda talks of selling 40,000 ILXs, is that 40,000 total ILXs or 40,000 ILXs in the US market only.
We Canadians tend to prefer our cars a little lower in price and smaller in size than our neighbours to the south. The ILX will sell in the thousands in this market and even if the US market doesn't hit the 40,000 mark, it could well be that when adding in sales in Canada, that number might just be doable.
Then again, I haven't heard specifically if Acura is talking US only or the North American market which is the only one, as far as I know, that the Acura brand is offered to.
Does anyone know, for certain, what that 40,000 figure is referring to?
|
Good question. I suppose since Jeff Conrad works for American Honda then it's probably only America. Doesn't Canada have it's own Acura distributor?
|
TonyEX
|
|
atomiclightbulb wrote:
Colin wrote:
TonyE wrote:
The TSX was very well received in NA.
|
Eventually. I seem to recall lots of gasps when the $27K price was announced. Many said 'why buy this when I can get a V-6 TL for only $2K more" How quickly we forget.
Also, don't forget how the current TSX was blasted when it came out. I recall... "too bloated" with "numb EPS", "no exhaust VTEC" and "they showed the Sports 4 and we got this?" Funny how "beloved" it is now.
|
I don't get it either. The current TSX sedan is heavy (in the 3300-3400 lbs range), has chunky styling, and still has the numb EPS. To me, its MY2009 debut represents the start of Honda/Acura's decline into oversized cars with less-than-stellar handling. I never liked the 2G TSX much, except for the wagon, and I still don't like it today. It's too un-Honda, and directly contrary to the character of the 1G TSX.
The ILX is much lighter, has nearly the same interior space, and has a dash layout that is a bit nicer. The current generation EPS is much better according to Jeff.
What does all this controversy say to me? That a good percentage of ToV members are idiots. But we knew that already.
|
My wagon can carry a lot more beer than any ILX.
That, makes me very smart. ;-P
|
CarmB
|
|
Colin wrote:
CarmB wrote:
A point of clarification. When Honda talks of selling 40,000 ILXs, is that 40,000 total ILXs or 40,000 ILXs in the US market only.
We Canadians tend to prefer our cars a little lower in price and smaller in size than our neighbours to the south. The ILX will sell in the thousands in this market and even if the US market doesn't hit the 40,000 mark, it could well be that when adding in sales in Canada, that number might just be doable.
Then again, I haven't heard specifically if Acura is talking US only or the North American market which is the only one, as far as I know, that the Acura brand is offered to.
Does anyone know, for certain, what that 40,000 figure is referring to?
|
Good question. I suppose since Jeff Conrad works for American Honda then it's probably only America. Doesn't Canada have it's own Acura distributor?
|
Maybe but if the question was specifically how many ILXs Acura expects to sell vs. how many ILXs are projected to be sold in the US market, you get a different answer. Since The ILX will be built in only one US plant, it wouldn't surprise me if Acura executives are thinking in terms of the ILX as a product for the North American market. If asked simply how many ILXs Acura expects to sell, I doubt there would be a tendency to break down the numbers by country considering there are only two, that I know of, that makes up the entirety of the Acura market.
Then again I can't say that I know for certain what was being referred to exactly regarding the 40,000-unit projection. It's just that it wouldn't surprise me if no one thought to clarify if the Canadian market was not included or included.
|
sugaki
|
|
CarPhreakD wrote:
The 2G TSX isn't as well loved as the 1st gen... but frankly I feel it's a better car than the ILX in many ways, betrayed only by its aging. The fact that there was a TSX wagon DID make it significantly cooler in my eyes... right up until I learned that Honda didn't make the 6MT an option.
|
As ugly as it is, the 2G TSX isn't a bad car. Actually drives pretty well, even in front-heavier V-6 form. Tall hood is annoying and makes it hard to see the front. Dynamics have never been the issue of Acura imo. It's their limp design, and mediocre interior quality--there's nothing luxury about it. Sit in a Volkswagen CC and a TSX and it's a world of a difference as far as materials. A TSX cabin and it feels like I'm in an Accord--well, because it is. TL still could be a lot more upscale in materials.
I haven't sat in or drove the ILX, but I suspect the same.
|
Hondarulez
|
|
THX17201 wrote:
danielgr wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Not to mention the fact that the 1stGen TSX had no 2ndGen i4 TSX sitting on the dealer lots alongside itself. Ah... sorry, forgot the same people that buried the ILX before it was born tend to think the TSX is a much better deal, so I guess that is totally unrelated when considering 1stGen TSX vs. ILX initial sales performance...
|
You conveniently left out the fact that the original TSX also had to sell along side the RSX to skew your data...
|
Damn, you are so right !!! ... and I forgot to mention that Honda was selling the NSX as well..., now that certainly skews the data;
massive overlap I can see between a small coupe that never really got "Acura luxury" (starting below 20K with a 2.0L 5MT and topping around 23K with a high-revving 2.0L 6MT) and the 1st gen Acura TSX sports Sedan. Actually, now that you say it I clearly remember this board clamoring the TSX made absolute no sense at the time because of strong overlap with the RSX ...
Got me !!!!
|
Your attempt at diverting the attention by needlessly making a ridiculous comparison to the NSX fails. The TSX and RSX were like cousins and appealed to the same type of customer and were in similar price ranges. The point is that those two cars could cannibalize sales from each other much like the TSX and ILX can now.
Your argument was that the ILX has lower sales out of the gate because it has competition competition out of the gate from the TSX, inferring that the original TSX was all alone to get many sales. This is incorrect and flawed logic, you would fit in working at Honda...
|
dangielgr mentioned the nsx, but then in his comparison, he's mainly talking about the RSX.
After all, NSX is not exactly a $20k 2.0L 5MT 2-door hatch/coupe.
Seriously though, I really can't see people cross-shopping between the RSX and TSX.
2004 RSX base price: $20k
2004 RSX with leather: $21.1k
2004 RSX-S base price: $23.3k
2004 TSX base price: $26.5k
2004 TSX with navi: $28.5k
There's a substantial difference in price ($5k between the TSX and RSX with leather )as you can see from the above.
2013 ILX 5AT: $25.9k
2013 ILX premium 5AT/ dynamic 6MT: $29.2k
2013 ILX tech 5AT: $31.4k
2013 ILX hybrid: $28.9k
2013 ILX hybrid tech: $34.4k
2012 TSX 5AT: $30k
2012 TSX Tech: $33.1k
The 2013 ILX premium 5AT is similarly equipped as the TSX 5AT. The price difference is less than $1000. This is not even considering the current incentive(s) on the TSX.
$5k difference vs $1k difference, see the problem here?
|
DCR
|
|
That is the POINT.
People wouldn't cross shop the RSX and the TSX because they were two totally different vehicles, aimed at two totally different demographics, and as Acura is becoming painfully aware, it was the correct approach to the "gateway" problem.
I imagine the approach back then was to get a now Gen Y'r into an RSX, and in a few years when the lease was up, or in a few more when the RSX was 5-6 years old, maybe priorities shifted and a bigger family car is needed...which is the TSX.
It appears the new plan is to try and shove some of the same "kids" into a frumpy, plain-looking, "near luxury" sedan that is priced well out of top-spec RSX-S range for a base model, and straight into TSX territory with the top spec (we'll exclude the joke of a hybrid from the equation). At least the RSX had some excitement around it, and was a unique offering at Acura.
If I look back at my Civic Si ownership, and instead replace it with an RSX-S for comparision purposes, and spent every oil change or recall service at the Acura dealer, I am quite sure when my RSX-S was ready to be turned in, I would be so saturated with Acura products that there would be no telling what I would be driving now. Problem is, I couldn't afford an RSX when it was new, because I was just starting out after college...which would have priced an ILX off the planet for me at the time. Now that I can easily afford a car in that price range, they make nothing I would buy.
Funny how that works. I guess I should get on the "people change over time" thing for my vehicle preferences.
|
THX17201
|
|
Hondarulez wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
danielgr wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Not to mention the fact that the 1stGen TSX had no 2ndGen i4 TSX sitting on the dealer lots alongside itself. Ah... sorry, forgot the same people that buried the ILX before it was born tend to think the TSX is a much better deal, so I guess that is totally unrelated when considering 1stGen TSX vs. ILX initial sales performance...
|
You conveniently left out the fact that the original TSX also had to sell along side the RSX to skew your data...
|
Damn, you are so right !!! ... and I forgot to mention that Honda was selling the NSX as well..., now that certainly skews the data;
massive overlap I can see between a small coupe that never really got "Acura luxury" (starting below 20K with a 2.0L 5MT and topping around 23K with a high-revving 2.0L 6MT) and the 1st gen Acura TSX sports Sedan. Actually, now that you say it I clearly remember this board clamoring the TSX made absolute no sense at the time because of strong overlap with the RSX ...
Got me !!!!
|
Your attempt at diverting the attention by needlessly making a ridiculous comparison to the NSX fails. The TSX and RSX were like cousins and appealed to the same type of customer and were in similar price ranges. The point is that those two cars could cannibalize sales from each other much like the TSX and ILX can now.
Your argument was that the ILX has lower sales out of the gate because it has competition competition out of the gate from the TSX, inferring that the original TSX was all alone to get many sales. This is incorrect and flawed logic, you would fit in working at Honda...
|
dangielgr mentioned the nsx, but then in his comparison, he's mainly talking about the RSX.
After all, NSX is not exactly a $20k 2.0L 5MT 2-door hatch/coupe.
Seriously though, I really can't see people cross-shopping between the RSX and TSX.
2004 RSX base price: $20k
2004 RSX with leather: $21.1k
2004 RSX-S base price: $23.3k
2004 TSX base price: $26.5k
2004 TSX with navi: $28.5k
There's a substantial difference in price ($5k between the TSX and RSX with leather )as you can see from the above.
2013 ILX 5AT: $25.9k
2013 ILX premium 5AT/ dynamic 6MT: $29.2k
2013 ILX tech 5AT: $31.4k
2013 ILX hybrid: $28.9k
2013 ILX hybrid tech: $34.4k
2012 TSX 5AT: $30k
2012 TSX Tech: $33.1k
The 2013 ILX premium 5AT is similarly equipped as the TSX 5AT. The price difference is less than $1000. This is not even considering the current incentive(s) on the TSX.
$5k difference vs $1k difference, see the problem here?
|
I was only comparing the RSX-S as they both they appealed to same type of driver. Yes the RSX-S was a little bit cheaper and it was hatchback but my point is it occupied a similar space in the market and a buyer of one could be swayed to the other if 2-dr wasn't a deal breaker. No it's not a perfect analogy but it's like the TSX existed all by itself and ILX doesn't.
|
Hondarulez
|
|
THX17201 wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
danielgr wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Not to mention the fact that the 1stGen TSX had no 2ndGen i4 TSX sitting on the dealer lots alongside itself. Ah... sorry, forgot the same people that buried the ILX before it was born tend to think the TSX is a much better deal, so I guess that is totally unrelated when considering 1stGen TSX vs. ILX initial sales performance...
|
You conveniently left out the fact that the original TSX also had to sell along side the RSX to skew your data...
|
Damn, you are so right !!! ... and I forgot to mention that Honda was selling the NSX as well..., now that certainly skews the data;
massive overlap I can see between a small coupe that never really got "Acura luxury" (starting below 20K with a 2.0L 5MT and topping around 23K with a high-revving 2.0L 6MT) and the 1st gen Acura TSX sports Sedan. Actually, now that you say it I clearly remember this board clamoring the TSX made absolute no sense at the time because of strong overlap with the RSX ...
Got me !!!!
|
Your attempt at diverting the attention by needlessly making a ridiculous comparison to the NSX fails. The TSX and RSX were like cousins and appealed to the same type of customer and were in similar price ranges. The point is that those two cars could cannibalize sales from each other much like the TSX and ILX can now.
Your argument was that the ILX has lower sales out of the gate because it has competition competition out of the gate from the TSX, inferring that the original TSX was all alone to get many sales. This is incorrect and flawed logic, you would fit in working at Honda...
|
dangielgr mentioned the nsx, but then in his comparison, he's mainly talking about the RSX.
After all, NSX is not exactly a $20k 2.0L 5MT 2-door hatch/coupe.
Seriously though, I really can't see people cross-shopping between the RSX and TSX.
2004 RSX base price: $20k
2004 RSX with leather: $21.1k
2004 RSX-S base price: $23.3k
2004 TSX base price: $26.5k
2004 TSX with navi: $28.5k
There's a substantial difference in price ($5k between the TSX and RSX with leather )as you can see from the above.
2013 ILX 5AT: $25.9k
2013 ILX premium 5AT/ dynamic 6MT: $29.2k
2013 ILX tech 5AT: $31.4k
2013 ILX hybrid: $28.9k
2013 ILX hybrid tech: $34.4k
2012 TSX 5AT: $30k
2012 TSX Tech: $33.1k
The 2013 ILX premium 5AT is similarly equipped as the TSX 5AT. The price difference is less than $1000. This is not even considering the current incentive(s) on the TSX.
$5k difference vs $1k difference, see the problem here?
|
I was only comparing the RSX-S as they both they appealed to same type of driver. Yes the RSX-S was a little bit cheaper and it was hatchback but my point is it occupied a similar space in the market and a buyer of one could be swayed to the other if 2-dr wasn't a deal breaker. No it's not a perfect analogy but it's like the TSX existed all by itself and ILX doesn't.
|
Perhaps you could've mentioned that you were only talking about RSX-S originally?
With that said, RSX-S only comes with 6MT, and I don't think many will argue that it's a fairly sporty hatch/coupe - one that is suitable for people enjoy driving a lot without spending a lot of money.
With that said, I'm still not convinced it would attract the same type of consumers as the TSX. In fact, if you are only talking about the RSX-S, the gap between the two models is even greater. I'd agree that RSX-S might steal some sales off the TSX 6MT (and vice versa). However, 6MT model for Acura traditionally accounts for 5% of the sales only. Even if I up that to 10%, that's not very significant. The thing is, most consumers buying the TSX are going with 5AT, and they are looking for a entry-level luxury/sporty family sedan. The RSX-S is simply not a family sedan. There's really no comparison here.
Young people will most likely go for the RSX (S or not), and after several years, when they start a family, then a TSX would be more suitable. If I have a family and I need car for suit the needs of my family, I probably won't get a RSX, I would get a TSX. I'm not saying a family man can't get a RSX as the only car, but that's probably not as common as getting a proper 4-door sedan.
Now that Acura has the ILX, people have a choice. The ILX offers an even lower starting price point for people who wish to have a 4-door sedan.
|
sugaki
|
|
Hondarulez wrote:
Now that Acura has the ILX, people have a choice. The ILX offers an even lower starting price point for people who wish to have a 4-door sedan.
|
Choice doesn't make it a compelling car. You either get a middle-of-the-pack, quasi-luxury car (TSX), or an overpriced, underpowered (or niche MT), underwhelming sedan with the ILX.
I'm actually surprised initial sales were that high. Will likely drop off in the coming months.
|
jero
|
|
So... if we are talking about recent college graduates unmarried without kids...
Where are the fricking 2 door models?!?!?!
I've been driving for over 20 years and my personal car has never had more than 2 doors. Oh yea, just like when I asked my Acura dealer about the next RSX (when my GSR was ready to be upgraded) they told me Acura wasn't interested in those boy racer types of buyers anymore. They were moving more upscale.
But hey... it got me into a S2000 instead of a true 2+2 Prelude/RSX-S replacement (which would be a much more logical choice with kids.) So thank you Acura for forcing me out of my purchased new Acura GSR and into a used S2000. 14 years since I bought my GSR off the showroom floor, Acura IMO still has nothing.
|
Hondarulez
|
|
sugaki wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
Now that Acura has the ILX, people have a choice. The ILX offers an even lower starting price point for people who wish to have a 4-door sedan.
|
Choice doesn't make it a compelling car. You either get a middle-of-the-pack, quasi-luxury car (TSX), or an overpriced, underpowered (or niche MT), underwhelming sedan with the ILX.
I'm actually surprised initial sales were that high. Will likely drop off in the coming months.
|
Hmm...I'm not saying that offering more choices = a more compelling car.
IMO, the current model year of ILX will not meet its intended sales target because of its powertrains. I expect the sales target will be met when ED powertrains arrive and the TSX is axed or moved upmarket.
|
|
|
| |
|
| Thread Page - 1 2 [3] |
| |
|
![[home]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/home.gif){kind=small}
![[rumors and news]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/rumors.gif){kind=small}
![[model release matrix]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/newmodelreleasematrix.gif){kind=small}
![[dealer network]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/dealernet.gif){kind=small}
![[desktop calendar]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/calendar.gif){kind=small}
![[exhaust notes]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/exhaust.gif){kind=small}
![[tov forums]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/forums.gif){kind=small}
![[links]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/links.gif){kind=small}
![[search]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/search.gif){kind=small}
![[sponsors]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/sponsors.gif){kind=small}
![[garage]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/garage.gif){kind=small}
![[login]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/login.gif){kind=small}
