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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective

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notyper
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The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 13:52
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Thought some of you might be interested in what's happening in the aftermarket tuning business. I'll try to include both general trends as well as some Honda specifics. This information comes from (1) My personal experience as the owner of two shops in two states (2) My discussions with other shop owners, business owners, etc. and (3) General industry info from SEMA and other various sources.

First of all, let's talk about how the economy has affected the tuning business. I don't have general revenue numbers (and most of what SEMA reports is self-reported by businesses, so beware), but I can tell you that from 2009-2011 we saw a lot of shaking out of the market as you might expect. Depending on who you were, this could be taken as good or bad. I have observed a lot of the lower end, newer or less reputable shops close their doors. For me, this was a good thing as they didn't go out of business because their customer base was zero, but because it was too small. But those now unserved customers have to go somewhere and because our shops are recognized as being among the best at what we do, we picked up some of that business. This allowed us to maintain very modest growth even during a heavy recession. Other businesses I've talked to who have strong management/reputations/biz models reported similar things.

The bad news is that, even among strong businesses that weathered the recession well, margins have dropped somewhat. This is due to price pressures keeping a lid on things with inflationary pressures pushing up costs. We held off raising prices for almost two years, but finally took the leap at the beginning of this year. Business didn't drop one bit, but we were very nervous about it. I think this is a good sign (more later). We're a more service oriented business, but other places we know that do more parts, or even manufacturing have been pushing hard to lower costs. Some are cutting quality where they can without it being too noticeable. Others are outsourcing more to overseas despite the attendant risk of counterfeiting or parallel imports. In the Honda market, for example, Hondata had to go through a complete redesign of products to fight off a counterfeiting ring who sold a large number of Kpro and S300 units. And Hondata wasn't even manufacturing overseas for just that reason.

Initial signs this year are that the industry is seeing some positive trends. I know our business is up and we are on pace for our best year ever. However, I think that this may be short lived. Even ignoring more general economic prognostication from experts, I like to look at certain factors in my business (and friends' businesses) for hints about the future. What bothers me most these days is that the percentage of our transactions that take place on credit cards has soared. We used to be under 50% 3-4 years ago. Now that number is probably 70% or higher. Discussions with other companies show the same thing (not so relevant for mail order parts guys of course, but for local service shops). I think this is a dangerous trend of people still buying what they want (and we are a luxury service when you think about it) despite not being able to afford it. Additionally, we are seeing utility costs rise and about to skyrocket here in SoCal (our water bill is set to increase by 40% or more). That's going to put a crimp on everyone's business, but especially on manufacturers (CNC, foundry work, etc. is all every power intensive). Given all this, we're saving our pennies and keeping new purchases to a minimum until we see how things shake out in 2013.

What might interest many of you is who makes up our customers and how this has changed. When I first started this business almost 11 years ago, we were about 95% Honda. This of course shouldn't be surprising as that's what I knew and we were small. Over time this came down to about 65% by year 4 of business. After that we saw a very slight decline each year, but since we were tuning more cars each year, the actual number of Hondas went up. However, starting in 2010, we saw absolute Honda customer number growth go flat. As a percentage of business, we were at about 45% at the start of 2010. By 2011 this had declined to just over 40% and this year with the phenomenal growth we've had, we're down to about 36%. The problem here, of course, is that there aren't many new Hondas being made that people are tuning. We get the occasional Fit or CRZ, and I'm sure we'll get some 9th gen Si growth, but no more S2000, no more 8th gen Si (which was huge from the moment it was launched) and 2nd gen TSX tuning is marginal compared to the 1st gen. And, naturally, the supply of older Hondas is slowly dwindling. Right now, I expect to see a slow, continual decline of Honda's marketshare in our business simply because the pipeline is not getting filled. The only hope I see for major growth is if someone like Hondata releases some really good V6 tuning tools to jumpstart that market (it's out there if they want to), or if Honda manages to respark enthusiast interest with new models/engines.

I have to go for now, but in a follow up post I'll talk about where our sales growth has come from (specific brands), trends in future tuning, upcoming regulatory changes that will affect the aftermarket (including a proposed change in how California does emissions testing), and some general trends to look for (think diesel, for one).

SC
bOOgiZ
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 14:39
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Thanks SC!

I'm fiending for your follow up post.

This seriously awakened my brain....especially after my super duper crazy boring lunch
superchg2
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 15:07
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Thanks for your perspective, Shawn.
DCR
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 15:11
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I'd have to imagine that the STi and WRX, along with MS3 pop up quite a bit in your shops, given continued support from Subaru and Mazda. The FR-S also must be showing up.

On the credit card thing...that is how I pay for 100% of my purchases, as the card I have can be used both as credit or debit, but it isn't a true "credit card", as it only uses and is limited to my bank accounts that I have linked to it. Is that a potential factor?
superchg2
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 15:38
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I now pay my State Farm and electric bill on my Capital One card since I will get 2% back. I pay the full balance every billing period.
superchg2
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 15:40
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superchg2 wrote:
I now pay my State Farm and electric bill on my Capital One card since I will get 2% back. I pay the full balance every billing period.


Correction: 1.5% back
Double J
Profile for Double J
Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 15:57
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I'm not really sure how it is in SoCal but in my market there is alot of JDM cars. It is also coincidental that there is the huge drift scene now. This presents a couple of challenges for us. 1. When kids that bought a R32/FD3S etc and want parts or service they think that it will be cheap like an economy car which is not the case of course. 2. They can go to a used JDM parts outlet and install in their garage. I'm not really into drifting or driving RHD on public roads so that is kind of a lost market for us.

I agree that there is alot of CC transactions and I see that is due to the credit climate in general but also the CC companies offering all kinds of premium cards with points and what have you but some people don't know that it's the merchant that is paying for those points. I can't stand CC processors. People need to pay more attention to their household debt levels in general IMO. Thanks for your insight SC.
TonyEX
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 16:06
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What are the demographics of your customers.

I imagine older folks use credit cards to get cash back. Our Costco AMEX card returned us over 500 bucks last year! Add the Costo 2% return and you can see how I got free tires for the hybrid and a lot more.

OTOH, I don't tune cars anymore. It's been a long time.

I would expect that younger customers might be the ones using credit cards to get access to money they don't have.

Do you give a cash discount? Perhaps that might shake up the tree.

Agree on regulations and cost of everything in SoCal is going through the roof. And this before Jerry tries to jam us with even higher taxes.

I think you're in a tough business right now. The fun days from the 80s to the 90s are going back to the 70s.
gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 16:18
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Very interesting post. I'm curious about the S2000. I'm part of S2Ki Metro NY which is one of the biggest sections around and many of the members are finding there isn't a car to replace the S2000 that steers as well, handles as well, revs as high, and is as reliable so they are putting more into turbo builds and SC kits to keep up with new sports cars. I guess my point is I'll be interested to read whether you see the demand for parts/work on these cars holding steady [for that reason] despite it not being produced anymore.
MasterOfDaDomain
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 17:21
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Very nice read! I suspect there are a lot of customers with turbo cars. Look forward to seeing the followup post.

What's the percentage of customers who just come in for suspension tuning?



A77
Profile for A77
Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 17:40
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Very interesting, but not surprising. I was going to say the same about credit cards - almost all my expenditure is on my CC, but I pay it all in full always - its just a payment method. if I havent enough in the bank I just cover it with LOC - why pay heinous CC rates. Turbo engines are so cheap to tune - bound to hurt the Honda tuning business.
typesean
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 17:42
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thanks for the update, very interesting
Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 18:48
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I'm really curious about the marketing trends saying the Gen Y + Millennial generations are aging into the entry-level luxury product brackets. If that's true, and the ILX is a somewhat properly targeted car in that market, my guess would be the tuner market would move upstream and I'd be looking at working on the Lexus IS/Infiniti G/BMW 3/Audi A4 cars - definitely cars above the $30k to $35k range. The higher price points of those cars might translate into more opportunity for the aftermarket. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the folks stretching for Panamera/Cayenne type cars showing up at the door.

I have zero experience in such a business environment though so it's all guesswork.
S600=Dream
Profile for S600=Dream
Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 19:16
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Any market for the V6 powered cars?

I've been seriously flabbergasted as to why people aren't taking V6 Accord coupes and going to town on them. It's a terrific platform from the get go...add a decent suspension setup, a limited slip and some wider wheels/tires and you've got a straight up killer car.

FWIW, I think part of it is that people from the current generation of newer drivers flat out don't care about cars like we (generation X) did. Hell, even my brother, who is only a few years younger than me, sees the car as a transportation device and not much more. And that's definitely the norm and not the exception.

And he drives an Integra! Ack!

It could just be people literally seeing cars differently. For your sake, I hope not!

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 19:38
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Pretty interesting read; appreaciate you took the time to share.
IntegraDC5R
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 19:48
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Shawn please tell/ask Doug and Derek to get a FlashPro out for the GE Fit. I've begged and begged more than a few times and nothing. I'm currently running a J's Racing reflash in my GE, but so would love to have the ease of tuning with the FlashPro. Had KPro in the 5R and AP2 and just miss having that ability. Though, don't want to give up on the Fit as it is just a really fun car to drive, especially how mine is currently set up.

Hoping your business keeps bearing fruit for you and the Cali gov doesn't keep taking more and more of it.
rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 20:10
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Nice read. Interesting to see the trend with Honda in the aftermarket. Not surprising at all.
notyper
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 22:38
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Ok, finished up tuning for the day, so I'll follow up some more now.

First, let's continue with talking about sales growth. For us, it has come from several distinct markets.

First of all, our biggest growth market has been Subaru. I've always been more of a Mitsubishi guy (going so far as to own an Evo X for a couple of years), but Subaru is just kicking Mitsubishi's ass in sales. Not only is the STI outselling the Evo, but the WRX simply crushes the Lancer Ralliart. As such, we see about 7-8x as many Subarus and Mitsus. Subaru has grown from being in the bottom half of the brands we serve 7-8 years ago to being a strong number 2. I haven't run the latest numbers, but I believe they're right at 1/3rd of our business. Our business comes from a pretty even mix of individuals and Subaru specialist shops (we have a half dozen that bring us regular business).

Next, we have a pretty good balance between GM and Nissan. With GM, it's mainly the big V8 cars, especially the Caddy CTS-V. With Nissan it's primarily the VQ V6 RWD 350/370 and G35/G37. We also get a fair smattering of Titans and some Altima V6's.

Finally, Scion has continued to be a stable, it stagnant market for us. We have good relationships with a number of the aftermarket parts developers for Scion cars, and have done a lot of tuning development for them, so we have a strong name in that marketplace.

After that, it's a mix of Mazdas (lots of Miatas and Mazdaspeed3s - they are really close to Scion in volume) the occasional Mitsubishi, the rare German car (we really don't do VWs, and most guys tuning BMWs or Benzs just buy a reflash and go, but we are starting to develop a good business with BMW race cars and stand alones).

As for the future of tuning, there are a couple of interesting trends happening right now. The first is the growth of "E-tuning". This originally started out among some ECU software or reflash vendors providing custom tunes based upon customer information and sometimes datalogs/feedback. Then some shops as well as some individuals began offering "custom" tunes based upon their experience with various cars and modification combos. Now, with most modern cars having wideband O2 sensors from the factory and modern ECU tuning software having such great datalogging, people are doing very detailed tunes, even using "virtual dyno" software to estimate power gains rather than just tuning to a safe mixture and knock free ignition advance curve.

In general, I'm not a fan of E-tuning from a business perspective. Obviously you don't need to invest in a dyno, so anyone can give it a try. And it is useful for those people living in areas where a dyno is a long way away. That said, I've done some E-tuning and for the price (generally less than half of what an actual dyno tune will cost), the work involved to offer a customer a level of timely support equal to what we offer our physical location customers is significant. Additionally, when you get into forced induction cars, the risk is high that something may go wrong during the process, and so much of what we do on the dyno involves multiple sets of eyeballs, ears and nostrils in addition to watching our sensors. So, right now we don't have plans to venture too much into E-tuning.

I do work with some customers who provide me with real time internet access to their laptops while on a physical dyno so I can datalog and watch the results. This is still not ideal for me, but far more controlled than road testing and emailing a datalog. But because we're doing so many cars/month between our two locations, I really don't have much time to do remote tuning anyways. All that said, I think it will continue to grow in popularity and expand the overall tuning market by bringing in people who normally wouldn't get dyno tuned, either by dint of poor geography, or insufficient funds. And eventually, I believe, they'll become dyno customers as well. So, all in all, it's a good thing.

The second big tuning trend right now is the use of alternative fuels. Methanol injection has been climbing in popularity very steadily the last 5 years as a multitude of new manufacturers have entered the game. And it does work, especially for high boost cars having to run crappy gas. There are risks (even with some of the failsafes, a meth system failure can mean an engine failure), but used properly, which means as much as for safety as for a power adder, it is a cheap and easy way to optimize your power. The bigger push now though is the use of E85 - which is kind of ironic because lack of federal subsidies have driven up the price as its popularity grows, and there is a big pushback now about using food crops for food (not really the case, but there is a loss of available farmland for food when so many farmers are planting ethanol stock corn). That said, E85 rocks as a performance fuel. Your cost per mile will be slightly higher than a typical premium gasoline (91-93 octane), but you get performance on par with race gas which will cost you 2.5-5x as much per mile. It is the tuners and enthusiasts in the midwestern U.S. who really deserve credit for pioneering the use of E85 as a performance booster. They had widespread availability long before the coasts and they took advantage of it. E85 burns cool, has incredible knock resistance, and liberates more power per unit of air ingested. If your mechanical parts can take the pressure, you can easily exceed 250-300 hp/liter (we've done over 400 hp/liter at the wheels on E85).

The alternative fuel push also kind of ties in with diesel. Yes, there is biodiesel available which is cool, but more importantly, diesel tuning has really taken off. Tuning diesels to some extent is a lot easier than gasoline, because the less fuel you inject, the less power you make and the lower your EGTs. So it's a lot harder to hurt a diesel during tuning and relatively easy to sneak up on maximum power - but don't get me wrong, you can kill a diesel pretty quick if you're stupid about things. I think the growth of diesel tuning in the US is driven by several factors. First, they all come with turbos now, so more performance is readily available with more boost. Second, diesels in the US were under far fewer restrictions than gasoline engines for many years. This is changing, but the enthusiast base has already been created so it will remain strong IMO. Third, diesels are more tolerant than gas engines, so it was easier to offer productive flashes that produced more power, economy and didn't hurt the engine. In fact, up until a few years ago, I'll bet 90% of the ECU mods done to diesels (and we're talking mainly heavy duty work truck types) were just generic reflashes. But now that mods are getting more excessive (giant compound turbo setups pushing 90-100 psi and making over 1000 whp), custom tuning is becoming a must.

So, what could stop all this fun besides a bum economy? Well, naturally the EPA, and some states led by California would prefer that opening your hood outside the confines of a dealership be made a crime. In fact, it is already illegal (federal law) to do any sort of modification to a passenger car ECU if that vehicle is to be used on the road. So naturally all these flashing tools sold say "For Off-Road Use Only". It's really kind of a wink-wink situation. The manufacturers say it's not legal for the street so don't use it there. The customer simply ignores it. And there's really no way for the government to tell.

Naturally the gov't agencies (EPA, CARB, etc.) would like to change that. California is now proposing a change in how emissions testing is done. First of all, instead of going in for a smog dyno test every 2 years (you get a 6 year grace period when buying a new car), you're simply going to go in every year and have a tech plug into your OBD2 port. If all your readiness codes are green and you have no OBD2 error codes, you're good to go. At first blush, this seems great for enthusiasts, because it's pretty easy to get around error codes. However, the government has a trick up its sleeve. It is asking the OEMs for all the unique CVNs for each model. A CVN is a calibration verification number that is usually a checksum generated for the ROM file and if you change the ROM (timing, fuel, boost, whatever) the algorithm that generates the checksum/CVN will create a new CVN that no longer matches the original. And voila, you fail. Maybe you're sent to the smog ref, or even the CARB concentration camp. But, don't worry too much. You could always flash your stock calibration back on as long as your modifications won't generate a code. Alternatively, because this is a never ending game of offensive/defensive counterdevelopment, it isn't very hard for people who can hack ECUs to use some of the empty space on the ROM (and there are always empty bits) to write in extra information such that the CVN algorithm generates a legit CVN. Or, you can simply brute force the CVN into place regardless of the checksum (it isn't hard to disable checksums).

So, in the end, I think this move to simply check ECUs is kind of a capitulation by the smog nazis. They realize that a certain percentage of people are going to push the boundaries of legality for modifications (and those boundaries are quite onerous in California IMO) and figure it's cheaper and easier just to let local police and highway patrol snag the obvious ones - loud exhausts, no catalytic converters, giant front mount intercoolers, etc. - and those with minor changes (if you still have your catalytic converter, you're still really clean) really aren't doing any significant damage anyways. California also makes it hard to buy aftermarket parts. You can't even buy aftermarket cats legally in the state anymore. Yes, you can buy medical marijuana with a prescription, but high-flow catalytic converters may not even be sold.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I find that the people in organizations like the EPA and CARB who are looking to crack down on vehicle emissions tend to be less technical and more idealogical. They have plenty of good engineers on staff, but they aren't zealots like the people at the top. And the more technical they get, the harder it'll be for them to enforce their mandates.

That's all for now. Happy to answer any questions.

SC
notyper
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 22:52
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BTW, I wanted to say one other thing (until I think of one more thing :).....

When it comes to emissions and keeping cars clean, I think the best thing that has happened to the aftermarket is high fuel prices. Now, if you know my post history, your eyes are probably bugging out in shock. No, I don't like high gas prices. They suck. But with higher fuel prices customers are still looking for more power, but they also want good economy when they're just cruising around. As such, they're far more willing to run wideband O2 sensors and pay for proper part throttle tuning which improves fuel economy. And good fuel economy generally translates to a cleaner tailpipe.

In the end, I make more money doing a detailed fuel economy map, customer saves money in the long term by burning less fuel, and overall, less fuel burned means fewer emissions (in general). Seems like a win-win situation. And once people are acclimatized to the fact that they can make power and have good economy, they are unlikely to go back.

You can put your eyeballs back in their sockets now.

SC
CarPhreakD
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2012 23:50
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"You could always flash your stock calibration back on as long as your modifications won't generate a code." Meaning a tool like Hondata's flashpro? They make it really easy.
notyper
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-08-2012 00:59
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Yes. Or Cobb's Accessport for Subarus and Mazdas. Or Uprev's Osiris for Nissan. Or any of the Hypertech or Superchips flashers for domestics.

The only caveat is, some modifications may trip a code because modern cars are very sensitive to any changes in operating conditions. They cross reference throttle position, mass airflow, manifold pressure and many other variables. Different manufacturers provide different tolerance levels, but a simple modification could put these variables out of balance.

Additionally, it does take a couple of drive cycles to set all readiness codes, so you can't just flash it and drive into the smog station.

SC
Dren
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-08-2012 11:06
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I certainly agree that more credit card transactions spells trouble. The economy is going to get far worse.

As for the E-tuning and other up and coming trends...I would seriously try to find a business plan that fits them. Make yourself flexible. Look at what is happening to physical media. Plus, anything that is cheaper will certainly be the route most will go when the economy gets worse.

Good posts overall though. I always like reading about the business side.
Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-08-2012 19:08
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nice insights!

Interesting how the "eco" tune is picking up in USA too, has been increasingly marketed in high fuel price Europe for a while now...

Maybe all the european cars with will push the diesel tuning trend more.
Is there an awareness to consider the diesel filter systems - mainly to get water out? In Australia, due to the rubbish people are mixing in the smaller pumps (saving money or buying crap biodiesel of some barnyard) and water vapor build up in the older tanks at the pump, the resulted diesel quality is giving the injectors hell.
There is a lot of talk of class actions emerging - against the car companies.
Anyhow the tuners around the commonrail systems are looking into the truck aftermarket to try and keep the diesel cleaner.
superchg2
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-08-2012 20:09
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Diesel car's are super rare in KC. The fact that diesel fuel costs 50 cents more per gallon, plus the additional up-front and maintenance costs, has kept demand for Diesel's pretty low
out here in Mid-America.
notyper
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Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-08-2012 20:13
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Most of the consumer diesel trucks that are modded run some sort of fuel separator to get water and aeration out of the fuel (diesel aerates really easy - that's why you can get a rush of foam out of the tank when filling large commercial trucks).

I think the most popular is a setup from a company called FASS out here.

I also know that direct injection setups are very sensitive to fuel quality. GM had a big problem on their Duramax (Isuzu) diesel V8s in the early 2000s with their injectors. A buddy of mine had his replaced 3 times under warranty. GM extended all warranties on injectors to 100k miles to compensate.

SC
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-08-2012 20:44
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notyper wrote:
...

Naturally the gov't agencies (EPA, CARB, etc.) would like to change that. California is now proposing a change in how emissions testing is done. First of all, instead of going in for a smog dyno test every 2 years (you get a 6 year grace period when buying a new car), you're simply going to go in every year and have a tech plug into your OBD2 port. If all your readiness codes are green and you have no OBD2 error codes, you're good to go. At first blush, this seems great for enthusiasts, because it's pretty easy to get around error codes. However, the government has a trick up its sleeve. It is asking the OEMs for all the unique CVNs for each model. A CVN is a calibration verification number that is usually a checksum generated for the ROM file and if you change the ROM (timing, fuel, boost, whatever) the algorithm that generates the checksum/CVN will create a new CVN that no longer matches the original. And voila, you fail. Maybe you're sent to the smog ref, or even the CARB concentration camp. But, don't worry too much. You could always flash your stock calibration back on as long as your modifications won't generate a code. Alternatively, because this is a never ending game of offensive/defensive counterdevelopment, it isn't very hard for people who can hack ECUs to use some of the empty space on the ROM (and there are always empty bits) to write in extra information such that the CVN algorithm generates a legit CVN. Or, you can simply brute force the CVN into place regardless of the checksum (it isn't hard to disable checksums).
...



Interesting stuff.

(1) So, in essence an ECU developer might put some OBD-II control code to erase all faults before a customer takes their car for a smog check. For every day use they would keep the faults and likely sell the ECU with an under dash black box that provides an every day interface to the ECU. I figure that would satisfy the spirit of the law but I'm sure it will void your warranty the second you take your car to a dealer. And better make sure to take out the black box before the smog check!

(2) Is the checksum done by the OBD-II box? That is, (a) does the to OBD-II smog checking box have access to the raw flash memory and calculates the checksum -or- (b) is there a function in the ECU that is called to return the calculated checksum or (b) is the checksum stored somewhere in the ECU flash and then compared with some model number in the OBD-II tester's own database?

If (2a) then it's hard. If (2b) then it's trivial. If (2c) then it's trivial as well.

(3) It may not be hard to disable checking for a checksum on boot up but I would not really recommend it. You might have corruption in the data section that configures your engine totally wrong. Corruption in the text section (code) is more insidious and likely to create strange behavior -or firmware crashes if you're lucky...

(4) Time to look into hybrid tuning!

Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-08-2012 20:52
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Interesting business perspective and I appreciate it.

The only thing I would like to point out is that the credit card issue you point out is not supported by most recent macro economic data.

That is, the average debt in the US is going down, not up. I would wager most of your Credit Card users are using cards instead of currency for convenience. I never write checks, and I only use cash on Bowling nights.
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-09-2012 00:05
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Tony the CVN is simply read out from a location on the ecu. It is generated by an algorithm in the firmware. It would take anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour to read out the entire ecu depending upon the communication protocol. Some ECUs from GM now store the last 10 unique CVNs so that GM dealers can see if the car was modded by looking for a non certified CVN. All this stuff is easily hacked but many of the software companies removed or disabled CVN editing a number of years ago. I think they got spooked by some potential legal ramifications, or maybe the prospect of the OEMs trying to mAke like tough on them. You know, sone thing like "modify the ecus all u want but don't try and hide it so we can't void warranties.". There is a strange detent between most OEMs and the aftermarket on ecu tuning.

Bill winkle you make a good point. I realize my info is anecdotal.

SC


Last edited by notyper on 08-09-2012 00:06
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-09-2012 14:16
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notyper wrote:
Tony the CVN is simply read out from a location on the ecu. It is generated by an algorithm in the firmware. It would take anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour to read out the entire ecu depending upon the communication protocol. Some ECUs from GM now store the last 10 unique CVNs so that GM dealers can see if the car was modded by looking for a non certified CVN. All this stuff is easily hacked but many of the software companies removed or disabled CVN editing a number of years ago. I think they got spooked by some potential legal ramifications, or maybe the prospect of the OEMs trying to mAke like tough on them. You know, sone thing like "modify the ecus all u want but don't try and hide it so we can't void warranties.". There is a strange detent between most OEMs and the aftermarket on ecu tuning.

Bill winkle you make a good point. I realize my info is anecdotal.

SC




Hmm... is the CVN affected when you tune the ECU? That is, does the CVN take into account not only the code section (the programs|firmware) but also the flash data section (where you would keep the data that you tuned)?

I supposed if you rewrite the firmware then it would be trivial to simply write the "desired" CVN code in there and leave it alone. But that outside of a tuner shop.. that would be more like Hondata and the like.

Or, if you opened the ECU and hacked it with a JTAG debugger (assuming you know the address of the CVN) then it also becomes trivial... except that I figure it might be obvious that the ECU box was opened? I doubt they bring out the JTAG port to the outside of the box.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: The State of the Aftermarket - One Tuner's Perspective    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-09-2012 14:24
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Yes, the CVN is computed in the firmware based upon the configuration of the entire ROM (usually 1-2MB of data). So even a single bit change in the ROM after tuning should create a CVN change.

You can go into the ECU itself, but most of them are environmentally sealed and opening is, at best, semi-destructive. Doesn't mean the smog-nazis would be able to tell without looking close, but it isn't a good option.

SC
 
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