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CB77
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Grace141,
Thanks for the great link to the old bike images and brochures, I am really enjoying it. The picture of the bike you posted (I believe it is a CL125, not SL125, the website has mis-labeled it) is just like the one that you and I discussed here a couple of years ago. I rode it from Columbia, Mo to Sedalia, Mo to the State Fair in 1969, to watch the M/C 1/2 mile races. I believe you were at that race. Small world, huh?
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Jovian8
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CB77 that brings back memories.
My first Honda was a 1973 Civic 1200 in an ugly brown.
Despite the shape, mine was not a hatchback ... it had a very small trunk opening. Very fun to drive.
First bike was 1980 CB400 Hawk with factory low bars and rearset pegs. Not exactly a hot bike... but I thought it had good power and excellent handling.
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Grace141
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CB77, I'll certainly take your word on it being a CL125. I would have thought the web would offer a lot of info on the '60s Hondas, and the larger bikes are pretty well represented, but the 125's seem to fall through the cracks. I'm not sure of the differences between the CB, CL, SS and SL bikes other than the scrambler specs so any help you can provide there will be appreciated. I've found differences in the shapes of the gas tanks.
One thing you might find interesting is the one problem my bike developed was the exhaust muffler finally rusted through and I set about replacing it in, maybe, '82. My local long-time dealer finally found a complete NOS set in the Honda cardboard box somewhere saying it might be one of the last ones available. I ended up paying almost as much for that Honda replacement exhaust set as I did for the bike to begin with. The friend who sold the Honda to me bought a '74 Suzuki 250 enduro - what a crude bike compared to the Honda but sure fun.
One of my local Honda motorcycle dealers supports evening and weekend group rides. One evening a few weeks ago I had a group of those riders pass me as I drove home from work. Amongst the older Goldwings and recent Shadows was a fellow on a Pacific Coast. What a wonderful idea Honda had with that bike back in the '80s.
And, yep, those MO State Fairs in the '60s and '70s were interesting. One afternoon or night it was modifieds or sprints on the dirt track. The next night it was Johnny Cash singing to a few hundred fans sitting on folding chairs on the dirt.
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P54
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CB77 wrote:
Grace141,
Thanks for the great link to the old bike images and brochures, I am really enjoying it. The picture of the bike you posted (I believe it is a CL125, not SL125, the website has mis-labeled it) is just like the one that you and I discussed here a couple of years ago. I rode it from Columbia, Mo to Sedalia, Mo to the State Fair in 1969, to watch the M/C 1/2 mile races. I believe you were at that race. Small world, huh?
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Yes, you are right, the CL had chrome high-swung pipes but the SL had black low-swept pipes with sharp upswing for the mufflers.. The CL type is called "Scrambler" and was more a road bike with up-swept pipes and muffler. The SL series was more dirt oriented. I don't think Honda made a twin cylinder SL 125, only the CD, SS or CB, however to my memory the SL 125 was similar to the SL100 and they were single cylinder engines.
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typesean
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2000 Civic Si - Milano Red
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P54
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My first car, bought brand new, same color. 1971 Honda N 600 GTL 45 HP, Still have original brochure but do not know how to upload a scanned photo to TOV.
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Grace141
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P54 wrote:
CB77 wrote:
Grace141,
Thanks for the great link to the old bike images and brochures, I am really enjoying it. The picture of the bike you posted (I believe it is a CL125, not SL125, the website has mis-labeled it) is just like the one that you and I discussed here a couple of years ago. I rode it from Columbia, Mo to Sedalia, Mo to the State Fair in 1969, to watch the M/C 1/2 mile races. I believe you were at that race. Small world, huh?
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Yes, you are right, the CL had chrome high-swung pipes but the SL had black low-swept pipes with sharp upswing for the mufflers.. The CL type is called "Scrambler" and was more a road bike with up-swept pipes and muffler. The SL series was more dirt oriented. I don't think Honda made a twin cylinder SL 125, only the CD, SS or CB, however to my memory the SL 125 was similar to the SL100 and they were single cylinder engines.
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Thanks, P54, and one note - my 125 (4-stroke twin) not only had the bright finish upswept scrambler exhaust with shield but also chromed small fenders as compared to the painted larger fenders on that CD you posted. There are some great looking bikes pictured in this thread.
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DCR
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Easlest way is to scan the brochure into an image or multiple images and then upload them to a photo service and link them like you just did with that pic.
I use tinypic.com usually.
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CB77
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Grace and P54,
As to the model names:
> “CB” always referred to the road-going-only models, with low, chrome plated exhaust systems: As in CB77 (the 305cc Super Hawk), the CB350, the CB750, etc.
> The “SS” designation (which stood for Super Sport) was sort of a short-term spin-off of the CB designation. It tried to be a little sportier than just a CB, but in appearance and function...it was essentially a CB. The SS125 (a low-pipe version of the CL125) is an example of this.
> The “CL” designation always meant a Street-Scrambler (essentially a CB playing “dress-up”, in semi-off-road clothes). The main appeal to these bikes was the more rugged appearance and image, and they were not really intended for true off-road use (although many riders of that era didn’t understand, or care, and used them off-road…I was one of those riders, see the attached pictures of me on a CL77)
> The “SL” designation was first applied to the 1969 SL350, as Honda started to “get serious” about the rapidly expanding off-road market in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s. Many people thought it stood for “Super Light”, which the SL350 was attempting to be, compared to a CB350 or CL350...the bike that it was derived from (Honda never confirmed or denied this). It had low-swept flat-black pipes, was slightly lighter and was tuned for more low-end torque. It led to the SL70/100/125/175 models in the early ‘70s. The “SL” designation was supplanted by the “XL” designation, as Honda started to really get serious about the dirt market, with the single-cylinder XL250 in 1972.
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CarPhreakD
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Not that I'm disrespecting the many elder statesmen on TOV, but I didn't realize there were so many old f***s on this website!
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superchg2
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Not that I'm disrespecting the many elder statesmen on TOV, but I didn't realize there were so many old f***s on this website!
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Thank you very little!
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CB77
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Not that I'm disrespecting the many elder statesmen on TOV, but I didn't realize there were so many old f***s on this website!
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No disrespect taken, at least not by me. I just hope that the today’s 25 year-old ToV participants can look back at these days, from the vantage point of the year 2052, and be just as excited and passionate about the Honda of today, as many of us older participants here are passionate about the Honda of 1969 – 1975. Unfortunately, when I compare the Honda of those days to today’s Honda, it’s going to be tough. Of course the Honda of 2012 may look really good, compared to the Honda of 2052.
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sennaFAN
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SEL123X. A prelude mk1 in burgundy, manual car with after Market electric windows, no power steering.
Absolutely loved the car, it's excessive build quality awesome slick gearbox and super smooth engine.
My friends with their MG Metro and Fiat 127 GT couldn't believe how reliable my car was.
A shame I stuffed it into a ditch after a rear trailing arm collapsed ... Ironically a new one was in the boot waiting to be fitted.
Great car, real Honda
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6SPDTL
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1983 civic,plain vanilla not even AC. Sky blue color. Drove it to bits on 3 continents :)
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P54
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CB77 wrote:
Grace and P54,
As to the model names:
> “CB” always referred to the road-going-only models, with low, chrome plated exhaust systems: As in CB77 (the 305cc Super Hawk), the CB350, the CB750, etc.
> The “SS” designation (which stood for Super Sport) was sort of a short-term spin-off of the CB designation. It tried to be a little sportier than just a CB, but in appearance and function...it was essentially a CB. The SS125 (a low-pipe version of the CL125) is an example of this.
> The “CL” designation always meant a Street-Scrambler (essentially a CB playing “dress-up”, in semi-off-road clothes). The main appeal to these bikes was the more rugged appearance and image, and they were not really intended for true off-road use (although many riders of that era didn’t understand, or care, and used them off-road…I was one of those riders, see the attached pictures of me on a CL77)
> The “SL” designation was first applied to the 1969 SL350, as Honda started to “get serious” about the rapidly expanding off-road market in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s. Many people thought it stood for “Super Light”, which the SL350 was attempting to be, compared to a CB350 or CL350...the bike that it was derived from (Honda never confirmed or denied this). It had low-swept flat-black pipes, was slightly lighter and was tuned for more low-end torque. It led to the SL70/100/125/175 models in the early ‘70s. The “SL” designation was supplanted by the “XL” designation, as Honda started to really get serious about the dirt market, with the single-cylinder XL250 in 1972.
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What a nice clean cut young man! Looks like it could have been me.
The bike behind you looks like a bigger "brit" bike (BSA?). Are you leading him in the race with the much smaller Honda?
Actually it was a Honda Benly 125 Super Sport that got me interested in Honda back in the 60's. It was the sound of that engine turning 12000 rpm that got my attention.
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CB77
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P54,
Yes, I am leading a "pre-unit construction" 650 Triumph in that particular shot. For "scrambles" racing (which is the kind of racing I did) there was a 100cc and down class, a 175cc and down class, a 250cc and down class, but then it jumped to a 650cc and down class. Since the CL77 was 305cc's (and too big to run in the 250 class), I had to run with "the big boys". Even with the 345cc engine size penalty, I did pretty well in those races...usually getting 3rds or 4ths, and winning one race. You can tell these were very amateur level races, by the goofballs behind me wearing the football helmets...whereas I was very serious (Ha!) with my real M/C helmet and goggles, but I still had the lace-up K-mart boots.
I always attributed any racing success I had with this bike more to the excellent performance of the Honda engine, rather than my riding skill. The bike did have homemade "TT pipes" on it, and it made a fearsome sound at the high RPM that I liked to use. It could be heard wailing above all the Triumphs and BSAs around the entire race course. I always thought that was a slight psychological advantage against the other guys...they didn't want to be too close to me when the engine blew, but it didn't blow. Sounds like you like high RPMs, too.
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StoneWolf
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I'm probably later to the party than most. My first, and current, is a 2010 Acura TSX 6MT.
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P54
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CB77,
What is a "pre-unit construction"? I can see the typical 650 cyl/head but the cover for primary drive seems different. Maybe it is just the picture quality?
Yes, it was the sound of my neighbors high rpm Honda Benly that got me to look at Honda. Before that it was Suzuki most people around me had and I thought of buying when old enough. Then some people in the neighborhood got Kawasaki and Yamaha. They were all more powerful than the European MZ, NSU and the "brits". Once I discovered Honda I got to read MC magazines and learned about the Honda's of Mike Hailwood and Jim Redman etc. 2 cyl. twin cam 50cc, 5 cyl 125 DOHC and 20 valves, 6 cyl. 250 and 350 etc. Engines turning upwards to 25000 rpm, "idle" warm up at 10-12000 rpm. That was a sound to remember. Remember how Mike Hailwood fought with Giacomo Agostini on the MV Augusta?
Learning about those Honda engines had me sold on Honda, they were light-years ahead. In the years that followed all the other "japs" had to "bow" to Honda and get rid of their two strokes and make four strokes. In those years when they converted to four strokes Honda had a sabbatical on the MC side as all their engineers worked on developing their new car, the Civic and the CVCC engine. The CB 750 four was so far ahead Honda let it go 10 years unchanged. Suzuki even used an old Honda man to help them develop their 4 strokes, Yoshimura as it was said he had some issues with Honda.
It is not just about high rpm but how an engine turn those rpm. A neighbor of mine owned a Honda CB 350 four and redline was from 10-11000 rpm, however his tach continued from 11 to 12000 without the red marking. Whenever he came by I noticed how he "wringed" out the last rpm from his engine. One day I ask him about it and what a revelation. He thought the "danger zone" was between 10 and 11000 rpm, the red part of the tach and if he pass that area fast he could safely continue on to 12000. Despite the abuse the engine never blew up.
Later in life when I dyno tuned motorcycles for street or track I noticed how much more pleasant the Honda engines were at redline than the other brands. When you take an engine past 10000 rpm there is a lot of fast moving parts and lots of stress, however the Honda engine was purring like a kitten while some other brands sounded like you were about to get the pistons in your face. The Suzuki GSXR's sounded like they were at their mechanical stress limit.
Going 10000 rpm with your CL 77 with straight pipes I'm sure sounded like a "roaring lion" in the ears of your competitors, maybe just the "fear factor" kept them at bay.
Back in the early 70's my twin brothers bought one each of the Honda PC 50, a Honda 50cc four-stroke moped. The camshaft was made out of aluminum, the whole thing including the lobes. They had exceptional fuel efficiency, 1L per 100 km which would be 236 miles per US gallon. Wish I had one today with today's fuel cost.
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LudegarH22A7
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1985 Honda Aero 50
My first honda and also my first gateway to freedom. Always and forever the best Christmas of my childhood...
My entire holiday campaign was for a go-cart, so try to imagine my delight after I entered the living room and that rich Monza red 2-wheeler flashed before my eyes. Trippy man... it survived all the way through middle school.
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CB77
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P54,
The term "pre-unit construction" refers to the practice common with English motorcycles (and I guess almost all motorcycles) up until the 1960s, to have the engine crankcases and transmission case cast as separate units, then when placed in the bike's frame, they are joined by a primary-chain compartment and a chain, to move the power from the engine's crankshaft, to the transmission's input shaft.
Triumph changed over from this "pre-unit" design to a "unit construction" design in 1963 (where the crankcases and transmission case are one casting). This made for a more oil-tight (and I would guess easier to cast and machine) engine/transmission assembly. Lots of Triumph critics would laugh and say they still weren't very oil-tight, back in those days. But nothing was oil-tight then, but a Honda.
You can distinguish between these 2 engine types by looking at the valve covers and the primary chain-case. I can see both of these items in this picture, so I can tell that the guy right behind me in on a Triumph 650 that is a model that is at least older than a 1963.
I took a look at this topic on Wikipedia, and they have a nice piece explaining this further. Here it is:
Engines and gearboxes were originally separate items, the gearbox being driven by a "primary chain". Later designs combined the two elements into a single "unit construction". Some manufacturers, such as Norton and Enfield continued with "pre-unit" construction until recently, and Harley-Davidson still makes pre-unit engines today.
In the early 1960s, BSA introduced new short-stroke unit construction 500 and 650 cc parallel twins to replace their existing pre-unit long-stroke engines. Triumph modified their large pre-unit 500 and 650 cc parallel twins into unit-construction engines. The smaller Triumph 350 and 500 cc twins had been unit construction from their introduction in 1957. The decision by Lucas to discontinue making dynamos and magnetos, and to produce only alternators and coil ignition systems, was a significant factor in forcing the redesign.
Traditionally, engines and gearboxes had separate lubrication systems with different grades of oil; but modern practice is to use the same oil for both.
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NealX
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1983 Honda Accord Sedan, medium gray. Just like in the latest commercial.
First mod: 1985 Accord wheel covers.
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DavidJ
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1990 Acura Integra RS.
I was just out of college looking for my first car. Couldn't afford a new car, so I bought it used, two years old.
It was a such a cool car that I ended up keeping it for nine years until I moved back to my home country.
It was perfect for carrying me, a companion and my bass amp pretty much anywhere.
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Grace141
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Not that I'm disrespecting the many elder statesmen on TOV, but I didn't realize there were so many old f***s on this website!
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You're only as old as the woman you feel. -- Groucho Marx
One conversation starter I've always liked is to ask a person an out-of-the-blue question just like the OP here did. What was your first car, how did you choose your career, etc. People I've known for years, people who have started conversations with me while traveling in airplanes, neighbors... You must be polite, of course, but I've learned you can find yourself in some "Wow!" conversations with folks who simply don't believe their stories are all that special.
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according2kev
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6SPDTL wrote:
1983 civic,plain vanilla not even AC. Sky blue color. Drove it to bits on 3 continents :)
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I had a '85 Civic wagon same color and no a/c either.
I was 16 and my mom being single with two kids made it very clear that she was on a tight budget but wanted me to have a car for being such a great kid ;). I had a choice of a Buick LeSabre, Civic Wagon, or waiting to get something better. Of course I couldn't wait. Neither was my dream car, but I hated the Buick's size and floaty ride so I chose the Civic.
I drove it for 2-3 years never checking or changing any fluids and never had one problem! FWIW, it had over 200k when she bought it. It was actually fun to drive with the manual, and I had plenty of room for my friends.
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PvG
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Cars:
83 Quintet - nicest car I've ever had
Bikes :
Camino
78 CB50
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Inebriated Snake
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2K2 Accord Coupe
I've always thought it was one of their best designs. People always seem to chose its contemporary the Prelude as the better looking coupe. The Prelude had classic design, proportions and a performance edge but the Accord was visually more forward thinking IMO.
I preferred its horizontal themes to the Prelude's more vertical ones. It also still had that long hood short deck look, but more aerodynamic; though it needed a serious drop. Lastly the NSX taillights sold me, love at first sight. Its funny how Chevy got rightfully blasted for sticking Camaro tails on the 2013 Malibu(Its awkward). Yet here Honda has done that very same thing years earlier and it somehow worked out great. Even the paint was cool: Nighthawk Black Pearl
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TheGandalf
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2001 Civic EX-2D - With leather interior.
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TonyEX
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You guys are old...
Check out the left dash on the Civic. Remember that manual choke? I think those went away in '80.
Was that a 5 speed Civic? That Civic, BTW, has aftermarket carpeting and seat covers, huh? I think the wooden steering wheel and the "wood dash" were standard on the five speed hatchbacks.
My CVCC did not have a tach, the oil and temp gauges were in the cluster. So, I added an aftermarket tach that I put on top of the steering wheel column. Then I put YELLOW SHAG CARPETING all over... yes... including on top of the shelves on the dash. This was, after all, the 70s and we had Carter in office. The yellow shag made the car sooo groovy. ;-)
And a Pioneer Cassette player... with minites/radials, with fog lamps... The radials turned that little car into a Grand Prix machine while Pink Floyd wailed through the apexes.
It was a wagon.. hmm... back to the future with our TSX...
You know... the instruments on the dash were really nice then, even better looking than today's Si. They looked like real instruments, almost out of a Honda motorcycle cluster -that blue background and simple but elegant white markings. Clear and precise. AHM'd designers should be force to spend a day with a 77 CVCC five speed hatchback to understand what made Honda Honda.
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A.W.E.S.O.M. - O
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'97 Civic LX Sedan in Inza Red. Great all around performer with the 5MT. Double wishbones, quick throttle, great steering, nice shifter. Made a great first car - loved that color too.
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RAdams
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Granada Black Pearl '97 Acura Integra GS-R Coupe. Still one of my favorites!
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