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jero
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I'm just going to do this every month as a FYI. I will also include avg gas prices in the US (price is actually for the end of the month with recorded sales), and total new US inventory according to cars.com.
We'll see if there are any trends with gas prices/availability/weather/or ???
CR-Z sales summary:
2010
August - 694 (7 days)
September - 1276
October - 1419
November - 1024
December - 876
2011
January - 894
February - 1091
March - 1,685
April - 1,819
May. - 1557
June - 966
July - 878
August - 745
September - 537
October - 289
November - 305
December - 564 ($3.26)
2012
January - 363 ($3.42)
February - 466 ($3.72)
March - 536 ($3.90/gal, Cars.com = 847 available)
April - 334 ($3.80/gal, Cars.com = 713)
May - 296 ($3.63/gal, Cars.com = 694)
June - 409 ($3.39/gal, Cars.com = 1018)
July - 330 ($3.53/gal, Cars.com = 1116)
2010 monthly avg... 1322
2011 monthly avg... 944
2012 monthly avg... 391
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VTECRacer
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TOKYO -- Honda Motor Co. is carefully allocating shipments of cars to the United States because its exports there from Japan are "losing money," CFO Fumihiko Ike said.
Honda won't cut off all shipments of those imported nameplates, including the Fit subcompact and the Insight and CR-Z hybrids, Ike said. But he said the company needs to minimize the impact of such shipments on its balance sheet.
That means that in some cases dealers are getting fewer vehicles than they might like.
The long-term solution: Move more production to North America and buy more parts there, including components for hybrid powertrains.
"Under the current exchange rate of 80 yen per dollar, our export business doesn't make any profit," Ike told Automotive News. "Definitely, the absolute number of exports to the United States will be decreasing."
It's the first time a Japanese automaker has admitted that sending vehicles from Japan to the United States is a money-losing proposition.
Honda relies less on exports from Japan to the United States than its rivals and therefore is less exposed to losses from currency exchange rates. Honda already builds in North America roughly 85 percent of the vehicles that it sells there.
Toyota Motor Corp. and Nissan Motor Co., which build about 70 percent of their North American sales volume locally, also are reeling from exchange rate losses and scrambling to shift production of vehicles and components to North America.
Ike's comments suggest that his rivals are under even greater pressure to transfer production from Japan to North America.
Nissan said in January 2011 that it aims to halve the value of components and the number of vehicles it brings from Japan by early 2014. Toyota wants to build hybrids with locally sourced components in North America by 2015.
Honda keeps selling its money-losing exports in the United States partly to keep segments covered and retain customers.
"We need to keep our customer base," Ike said. Exports of money-losers will continue "just for the sake of our dealers. At least they have something" to sell.
"Especially last year because of the shortage of supply, American Honda didn't have enough cars to sell," he said, so the Japanese automaker kept shipping cars, such as certain Acuras and hybrid models, to the United States despite losses on those exports.
Honda already is tackling the problem. It will transfer production of the Fit small car to a plant that will open in Mexico in 2014. The Fit accounted for roughly a third of Honda's U.S. imports in 2010 and 2011.
In addition, the 2013 Acura ILX, which went on sale at the end of May, originally was planned for Honda's Sayama plant in Japan but instead is being built in Greensburg, Ind. It eventually may replace the imported TSX, although Honda has not confirmed that.
Limited exposure
Besides the Fit, some versions of the CR-V, limited-volume hybrids and Acura models are the main imports from Japan.
Overall, Honda's exports, and hence its exposure to currency swings, are limited. Last year exports of Honda and Acura vehicles to the United States accounted for less than 6 percent of the 3.1 million units Honda sold worldwide. But those exports to the United States still accounted for three-quarters of the 235,000 vehicles Honda exported from Japan.
Through May, Fit sales in the United States fell 33 percent to 19,706 units. Sales also dropped 65 percent for the Insight, to 3,547; and 72 percent for the CR-Z, to 1,995. Those three nameplates accounted for 32 percent of Honda's import sales so far this year.
The Fit is the prime example of Honda's dilemma.
Asked whether Honda makes any profit on Fits sent to the United States, Ike said flatly, "No."
Even if Honda were making money on Fit exports, U.S. allocations probably would be tight. Fit sales in Japan are red hot because of a government incentive program that promotes sales of fuel-efficient cars, reducing the supply available for export.
But, Ike added: "We need to keep the customer base and demographics, especially [with] hatchbacks for the younger generation. For them, it's a very good car."
Demand for the Fit is much higher than supply, said John Hawkins, president of Metro Honda in suburban Los Angeles. But he and other dealers have suspected that Honda was holding back on shipping cars because they can't make as much money on yen-denominated vehicles in the United States as in Japan.
Not profitable for dealers
Because the Fit "is not a profitable car for Honda, it's priced so it's not a profitable car for dealers," Hawkins said. "In a competitive market, people are buying the deal, and there's no deal to be had on a Fit. As soon as they complete that Mexico plant, it will be priced competitive. And I don't think they hit the mark on Insight, so why should Honda give any remedial activity on a product that missed?"
Other dealers say demand for fuel-efficient Hondas is not as great as for core vehicles such as the Civic, Accord, CR-V, Pilot and Odyssey -- all built in North America --which typically carry better margins for dealers and salespeople. So salespeople push core vehicles when a customer walks in the door. About a quarter of the CR-Vs sold in the United States through May were imported.
Jerry Goddard, general manager of Hennessy Honda in Woodstock, Ga., said he can rely on "fickle Atlantans" to come running for Fits and Insights when gasoline is at $4.50 a gallon. But with gas at $3.50, "everyone forgets we have a hybrid."
"I asked my salesmen if anyone got any calls for a CR-Z, and nobody raised a hand," Goddard said.
To cut its losses further, Ike said, Honda aims to shift production of hybrid cars and their hybrid components to North America "within a few years."
He said: "We are not just simply shifting assembly from Japan to the United States. Of course, we have to expand local procurement, otherwise it's not cost-effective."
Looking for batteries
Honda engineers already are scouting local suppliers of such hybrid components as lithium ion batteries.
The hybrid version of the ILX is the only hybrid manufactured by Honda in the United States. But its battery comes from Japan.
Honda will build the Acura NSX sports car in Ohio within three years with a hybrid drivetrain, though volume will be small.
U.S. hybrid sales of at least 100,000 units would justify localized production, Ike said. But Honda's hybrid sales are way off that pace. Honda currently imports the Civic hybrid, the CR-Z sporty hybrid and the Insight hybrid hatchback from Japan.
Last year their combined U.S. sales totaled only 31,582.
Honda aims to boost hybrid sales with a new hybrid Accord sedan scheduled to arrive this winter.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20120611/OEM01/306119947#ixzz22L0Tan7j
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fladdams2k1
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To cut its losses further, Ike said, Honda aims to shift production of hybrid cars and their hybrid components to North America "within a few years."
He said: "We are not just simply shifting assembly from Japan to the United States. Of course, we have to expand local procurement, otherwise it's not cost-effective."
Looking for batteries
Honda engineers already are scouting local suppliers of such hybrid components as lithium ion batteries.
The hybrid version of the ILX is the only hybrid manufactured by Honda in the United States. But its battery comes from Japan.
Honda will build the Acura NSX sports car in Ohio within three years with a hybrid drivetrain, though volume will be small.
U.S. hybrid sales of at least 100,000 units would justify localized production, Ike said. But Honda's hybrid sales are way off that pace. Honda currently imports the Civic hybrid, the CR-Z sporty hybrid and the Insight hybrid hatchback from Japan.
Better yet, why not "shift" production of crappy Honda hybrids to regular cars people actually want to buy. No one's screaming for more Honda Hybrids, because the one's they already have are, in a word, mediocre..and that's being kind.
Honda, why not start by standing behind the people that actually already bought a Honda Hybrid and have been left holding the bag on an overpriced, useless battery laden pig that no longer even employs the IMA, battery constantly regenerates, auto-stop barely works and can hardly crawl down the road and struggles to get a whopping 32 mpg, when it USED to get 45 MPG and accelerated normally. No, I guess that would be too much to ask, for a company to stand behind their products and not shift the blame to the consumer and insult their intelligence.
Honda, concentrate on regular cars, your hybrids suck. Buyer beware.
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notyper
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While my viewpoint isn't quite as extreme as fladdams2k1's, he does bring up a good point of discussion.
If you look July's sales, Honda sold, what, about 1200-1300 hybrid vehicles total? 3 Hondas, 1 Acura. 2 distinct platforms spawning 4 different body styles (3-dr hatch, 5-dr hatch and 2 distinct 4-dr sedans) with 2 different powertrains in 3 different trims (Insight 1.3, Civic 1.5/ILX 1.5 and CR-Z 1.5). Pricing ranging from US$18k to over US$30k.
Is it worth it? Honda's been selling IMA equipped cars now for over a decade. The technology is mature, it is well understood and it is proven in terms of what it can and can't do. So, is it time to move on? I'm aware of the multi-motor eSH-AWD setup coming, and that's great, but it doesn't fit into the lower price range that the current Honda hybrids fit into.
I don't expect Honda to be Toyota. The Prius, it's evolution and its marketing have all combined to create a phenomena that is unlikely to be duplicated in the _hybrid_ space. But can they really be happy with their results at this point? 15-20k cars/year with all that time and money invested is pretty weak.
And of course, I wouldn't be me if I didn't point out that with just a portion of what has been invested into all these low selling (which also means low impact on CAFE averages) IMA hybrids Honda could have put together a really bitchin performance platform (RWD) that could have spawned multiple models for Honda and Acura that would have sold an 2-10x more than the hybrid lineup.......
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TurkMan71
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notyper wrote:
While my viewpoint isn't quite as extreme as fladdams2k1's, he does bring up a good point of discussion.
If you look July's sales, Honda sold, what, about 1200-1300 hybrid vehicles total? 3 Hondas, 1 Acura. 2 distinct platforms spawning 4 different body styles (3-dr hatch, 5-dr hatch and 2 distinct 4-dr sedans) with 2 different powertrains in 3 different trims (Insight 1.3, Civic 1.5/ILX 1.5 and CR-Z 1.5). Pricing ranging from US$18k to over US$30k.
Is it worth it? Honda's been selling IMA equipped cars now for over a decade. The technology is mature, it is well understood and it is proven in terms of what it can and can't do. So, is it time to move on? I'm aware of the multi-motor eSH-AWD setup coming, and that's great, but it doesn't fit into the lower price range that the current Honda hybrids fit into.
I don't expect Honda to be Toyota. The Prius, it's evolution and its marketing have all combined to create a phenomena that is unlikely to be duplicated in the _hybrid_ space. But can they really be happy with their results at this point? 15-20k cars/year with all that time and money invested is pretty weak.
And of course, I wouldn't be me if I didn't point out that with just a portion of what has been invested into all these low selling (which also means low impact on CAFE averages) IMA hybrids Honda could have put together a really bitchin performance platform (RWD) that could have spawned multiple models for Honda and Acura that would have sold an 2-10x more than the hybrid lineup.......
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I think there is going to be a next generation small car IMA system coming out...not sure if it will set the world on fire but, well, there it is for ya...
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notyper
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Yeah, but I just don't see IMA being the competitive solution for smaller cars. I think it's a great, yet simple tech that can easily be added to almost any powertrain (other manufacturers are adapting similar versions for higher end hybrids), so a smart move might be to add a small pancake motor to almost any Honda as an option with a small battery pack. In fact, it would be better in larger vehicles. A 200 lbs weight penalty for 70-80 lbs-ft of torque and 20-30 hp in a 4000+ lbs Odyssey or Pilot would be almost unnoticed and a 2-3 mpg improvement (which would equate to a 10-15% improvement) would be worth it for a $2k-$3k premium on a $30k+ vehicle. The payback would be on the order of 8-10 years which isn't unreasonable.
But to compete in the fuel economy/green wars (which I am against BTW) as Honda seems to want, they're going to have to do better. Or, simply go a different way.
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Atomic Frog
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You know, I see this whole hybrid thing like Apple in the tablet space. There's a market for iPads, not for tablets. And similarly there's a market for Prius, not hybrids.
Somebody posted the competitive sales numbers and if you look at the hybrid space, I think Toyota, and mostly Prius, commands something like over 80% of the market.
That's not to say it won't change, but that seems to be the reality at the moment.
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notyper
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Interesting analogy there, Atomic.
While it's not perfect, the parallels are very strong. Something to think on.
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Restless
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Atomic Frog wrote:
You know, I see this whole hybrid thing like Apple in the tablet space. There's a market for iPads, not for tablets.
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At least in Europe Apple tablets are not so popular. And they are very overpriced.
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Hondu
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Restless wrote:
Atomic Frog wrote:
You know, I see this whole hybrid thing like Apple in the tablet space. There's a market for iPads, not for tablets.
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At least in Europe Apple tablets are not so popular. And they are very overpriced.
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There, fixed it for you.
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CR-V9
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I agree that IMA is better suited to larger cars, the old hybrid Accord. They could add IMA to their regular ones, don't down size the engine. It'd get better low end torque and better mpg.
However, I think that IMA with smaller cars have its own advantage too. IMA is less expensive than Toyota's Synergy so as a pricing advantage. It'd be hard for Toyota to add Synergy to smaller cars.
I do think they should have two sizes for IMA.
Lastly, I don't know how Honda can go a different way. I'm sure Toyota has already covered more than enough patents around their Synergy. I don't know how Honda can go around it (as Colin said once before?). And I don't think they'd ever license anything from Toyota.
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kidoairaku
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Here's a copy and paste from the June thread under this monthly CR-Z beat down. I'll update with recent sales data when the website updates them.
I'm pretty sure Honda doesnt care about Insight or CRZ seeing as how the sales comes from the Fit and Freed lines.
Japan sales figures:
CR-Z
Jan - 739
Feb - 614
Mar - 725
Apr - 342
May - 345
for perspective here's
Insight
Jan - 742
Feb - 1208
Mar - 1758
Apr - 598
May - 566
Fit Hybrid
Jan - 4802
Feb - 5601
Mar - 9252
Apr - 4582
May - 4632
Fit Shuttle Hybrid
Jan - 8498
Feb - 9757
Mar - 8864
Apr - 3656
May - 3799
Freed Hybrid
Jan - 5584
Feb - 5601
Mar - 5181
Apr - 2985
May - 2956
Freed Spike Hybrid
Jan - 2744
Feb - 1991
Mar - 2460
Apr - 1229
May - 1424
And just for fun.
Prius
Jan - 29,108
Feb - 35,875
Mar - 45,496
Apr - 21,906
May - 20,789
source: Japan Hybrid Sales
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Gumbercules
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notyper wrote:
If you look July's sales, Honda sold, what, about 1200-1300 hybrid vehicles total? 3 Hondas, 1 Acura. 2 distinct platforms spawning 4 different body styles (3-dr hatch, 5-dr hatch and 2 distinct 4-dr sedans) with 2 different powertrains in 3 different trims (Insight 1.3, Civic 1.5/ILX 1.5 and CR-Z 1.5). Pricing ranging from US$18k to over US$30k.
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Part of their problem has been how they underestimate the power of marketing. I think Honda is was the only manufacturer that could have competed against the Prius, but they allowed their hybrids to appear like their MPG is lagging. Honda likes to underpromise and overdeliver with MPG ratings, but that is ruining consumer perception.
The CR-Z is rated in the low to mid 30's, yet is averaging ~39MPG compared to the "40MPG" Veloster getting 32.5MPG. The sad part is everyone thinks the Veloster gets better mileage since it "gets 40MPG HWY"
Similarly, the Insight is getting mid 40's while the Prius is getting upper 40's. The difference may or may not be significant, the real problem is the Insight is rated at 41/44 while the Prius is rated at 51/48. Honda could gain a lot of sales by upping their EPA ratings, since it is very likely they are adjusting it down to be modest.
On top of that, people who want a hybrid want max mpg, not second best or better value, and IMO this is because of the expectations set by the Prius to get close to 50MPG and also because of all the HWY MPG marketing warping consumer perception. I've heard so many people ask "The prius barely gets 50MPG? whats the point of hybrids if cars are now getting 40MPG". Then I have to explain to them that 40MPG is for HWY only, and unsless they drive 90% in freeflowing highways then the Combined # is more relevant.
One more thing, im not saying that everyone should buy Hybrids or making an excuse for Honda, what I am saying is that MPG marketing has become a larger influence on purchases and Honda is lacking. What they need is hybrids rated at 50MPG and good marketing to go along, but I'm not holding my breath for that even with ED engines and new IMA coming.
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notyper
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@kidoairaku
You've perfectly reinforced my point. The CR-Z and Insight don't even sell in Honda hybrid friendly Japan (and the Civic hybrid isn't even available). Yet for some reason Honda felt the need to design and build them. They do nothing for Honda's CAFE numbers, nothing for the bottom line and really nothing positive for Honda's image.
Honda would have been better served by bringing the Fit Hybrid to the US (which is a far better car than the Insight IMO) and spending the CR-Z and Insight money on something better for the brand.
And yes, I understand the Fit is expensive to import. But would it have been any worse than the Insight even if it was only available in limited quantities? And it certainly would have helped lend impetus to moving Fit production to North America.
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Hondarulez
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Gumbercules wrote:
notyper wrote:
If you look July's sales, Honda sold, what, about 1200-1300 hybrid vehicles total? 3 Hondas, 1 Acura. 2 distinct platforms spawning 4 different body styles (3-dr hatch, 5-dr hatch and 2 distinct 4-dr sedans) with 2 different powertrains in 3 different trims (Insight 1.3, Civic 1.5/ILX 1.5 and CR-Z 1.5). Pricing ranging from US$18k to over US$30k.
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Part of their problem has been how they underestimate the power of marketing. I think Honda is was the only manufacturer that could have competed against the Prius, but they allowed their hybrids to appear like their MPG is lagging. Honda likes to underpromise and overdeliver with MPG ratings, but that is ruining consumer perception.
The CR-Z is rated in the low to mid 30's, yet is averaging ~39MPG compared to the "40MPG" Veloster getting 32.5MPG. The sad part is everyone thinks the Veloster gets better mileage since it "gets 40MPG HWY"
Similarly, the Insight is getting mid 40's while the Prius is getting upper 40's. The difference may or may not be significant, the real problem is the Insight is rated at 41/44 while the Prius is rated at 51/48. Honda could gain a lot of sales by upping their EPA ratings, since it is very likely they are adjusting it down to be modest.
On top of that, people who want a hybrid want max mpg, not second best or better value, and IMO this is because of the expectations set by the Prius to get close to 50MPG and also because of all the HWY MPG marketing warping consumer perception. I've heard so many people ask "The prius barely gets 50MPG? whats the point of hybrids if cars are now getting 40MPG". Then I have to explain to them that 40MPG is for HWY only, and unsless they drive 90% in freeflowing highways then the Combined # is more relevant.
One more thing, im not saying that everyone should buy Hybrids or making an excuse for Honda, what I am saying is that MPG marketing has become a larger influence on purchases and Honda is lacking. What they need is hybrids rated at 50MPG and good marketing to go along, but I'm not holding my breath for that even with ED engines and new IMA coming.
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+1. I'd add that Honda doesn't just do that to their hybrids, but they also underestimate their regular cars.
I personally feel that the IMA approach is suitable for smaller cars as the main advantages are: lighter, less costly, less complex, takes less space. Instead of adding like 300-400lbs of extra weight like HSD does, IMA adds about 150-200lb only. And the system doesn't turn the car into an appliance. In fact, most Honda hybrids drive like regular Hondas.
For their hybrids I think Honda should increase their EPA ratings, advertise on real-world mileage, and market the benefits of IMA that were mentioned above. It's getting too late, but if Honda doesn't act now, it will only get harder. People will continue buy into the Prius hype and there will be no way going around that.
With the above said, I'd like to see the new hybrid system from Honda that is supposed to come out soon, along with the Sports Hybrid SH-AWD.
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kidoairaku
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I wont even pretend to understand Honda's thinking. My only guess is that the Insight, CR-Z have paved the way to produce the Fit and Freed. that being said, why we dont get the Fit Hybrid is beyond me, the Japanese volume suggests that the economies of scale will allow for LESS of a loss than selling the CRZ and Insight.
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P54
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kidoairaku wrote:
I wont even pretend to understand Honda's thinking. My only guess is that the Insight, CR-Z have paved the way to produce the Fit and Freed. that being said, why we dont get the Fit Hybrid is beyond me, the Japanese volume suggests that the economies of scale will allow for LESS of a loss than selling the CRZ and Insight.
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More correctly the Fit, (or Jazz) paved the way for CR-Z, Insight and Freed. Fit came out long before the others.
Honda is loosing money selling Japanese made cars in USA so why would they even introduce another variant of the Fit to loose money on. Honda has a hard time making enough cars for the domestic market.
When the factory in Mexico is ready then it would make more sense with a push in USA for the Fit and possibly a hybrid version or a "wagon style" hybrid.
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fladdams2k1
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Gumbercules wrote:
notyper wrote:
If you look July's sales, Honda sold, what, about 1200-1300 hybrid vehicles total? 3 Hondas, 1 Acura. 2 distinct platforms spawning 4 different body styles (3-dr hatch, 5-dr hatch and 2 distinct 4-dr sedans) with 2 different powertrains in 3 different trims (Insight 1.3, Civic 1.5/ILX 1.5 and CR-Z 1.5). Pricing ranging from US$18k to over US$30k.
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Part of their problem has been how they underestimate the power of marketing. I think Honda is was the only manufacturer that could have competed against the Prius, but they allowed their hybrids to appear like their MPG is lagging. Honda likes to underpromise and overdeliver with MPG ratings, but that is ruining consumer perception.
The CR-Z is rated in the low to mid 30's, yet is averaging ~39MPG compared to the "40MPG" Veloster getting 32.5MPG. The sad part is everyone thinks the Veloster gets better mileage since it "gets 40MPG HWY"
Similarly, the Insight is getting mid 40's while the Prius is getting upper 40's. The difference may or may not be significant, the real problem is the Insight is rated at 41/44 while the Prius is rated at 51/48. Honda could gain a lot of sales by upping their EPA ratings, since it is very likely they are adjusting it down to be modest.
On top of that, people who want a hybrid want max mpg, not second best or better value, and IMO this is because of the expectations set by the Prius to get close to 50MPG and also because of all the HWY MPG marketing warping consumer perception. I've heard so many people ask "The prius barely gets 50MPG? whats the point of hybrids if cars are now getting 40MPG". Then I have to explain to them that 40MPG is for HWY only, and unsless they drive 90% in freeflowing highways then the Combined # is more relevant.
One more thing, im not saying that everyone should buy Hybrids or making an excuse for Honda, what I am saying is that MPG marketing has become a larger influence on purchases and Honda is lacking. What they need is hybrids rated at 50MPG and good marketing to go along, but I'm not holding my breath for that even with ED engines and new IMA coming.
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Sorry for coming off so harsh earlier guys, but I am beyond frustrated with my 2009 Civic Hybrid that I've owned less than one month. This thing is a beauty; low miles, leather, navigation, essentially a brand new car. I couldnt pass it up as my 1st gen Civic Hybrid was getting long in the tooth. What a terrible mistake! I shouldve kept my old Civic, even with its IMA quirks and laughable power, it still returned 45 mpg on average, and never once failed to provide electric assist.
This 2009 is, in a word, a POS. I tried to get the dealer to take it back, because it's obviously one of the many experiencing several issues; battery deterioration, horrible software patch to preserve said battery, and essentially a regular gas Civic hauling around all the hybrid componentry. Oh and delivering dismal MPG...37 with hypermiling, are ya kidding me?? I know I could get better MPG in a regular Civic; I have before. Hell, my 93 Accord got 34 mpg with 217k miles on it.
How can a car, 5 years newer be such a step back from the 1st gen? So, yes, I do blame Honda for continuing to pretend there is no problem with these cars. This is not the way to build CONFIDENCE in your hybrid product line. I lived with the quirks in my first Civic Hybrid and I expected better with this one. I am horribly disappointed.
The analogy regarding iPads and tablets is pretty accurate. I shouldve just bought a Prius, but I cant stand the way they look and I'm a Honda man.
You are correct that Honda does underestimate their MPG ratings; I've always gotten higher than advertized on their cars. I've gotten 31 hwy in my S2000 and routinely get 25 mpg out of it in mixed, when its rated 20/25. The uninformed consumer is going to blindly go with what's on the sticker, which is why Toyota will always win..plus it gets whats advertized with little to no compromise. Honda Hybrids damn near have a Magna Carta to go along with them to extract mpg.
I agree with notyper...has this really been worth Honda's investment? 10 years, absolutely NO gains in market share and a perception (possibly a reality) of lower quality product with tons of problems and zero service support. I dont expect anything great from the next gen IMA unless its a fundamentally different design or implementation. But what concerns me is, IMA is basic and simple...how is Honda going to execute something more complex? They cant really even perfect a simple system. I know its apples to oranges, but based on this experience, you couldnt pay me to consider another Honda Hybrid, NSX included.
Last point I make is, people buy hybrids for max MPG, period. Not to be "sporty" and not to save literally a couple bucks on 'lower priced hybrids' by sacrificing MPG. The CRZ is an answer to a question no one was seriously asking, and the Insight needs a lot more MPG to de-throne the Prius. Start with 55 mpg and $25k. Honda, its time to go big or go home.
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sugaki
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Why are people talking about the Fit? This thread is about the CR-Z. And we know the CR-Z has nothing to do with limited shipments--those things are languishing on dealer lots.
The CR-Z is probably the biggest disappointment to me in recent decades for Honda. I see them on the road and get sad. Such a botched opportunity, due to complacency, cost-cutting and design-by-committee. The took one of the most venerable brand names and took a dump on it.
Had it not been based on the Insight, had they tried retaining more of the concept design, had they not tried forcing that ridiculous waste of time that is IMA into the thing, it could've been a big seller. All those buyers that went to the Veloster could've gotten a CR-Z. I mean the bar isn't even that high--the Veloster is all kinds of mediocre... sluggish engine, lackluster fuel economy, mush transmission, underwhelming suspension. But driving a CR-Z and you get the sense of a car that's devoid of passion--and it has nothing to do with not having a K20 or whatever. After all, the Fit's got plenty of spunk to it, and it's a slow car.
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Farage1
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crz needs k20
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TurkMan71
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notyper wrote:
Yeah, but I just don't see IMA being the competitive solution for smaller cars. I think it's a great, yet simple tech that can easily be added to almost any powertrain (other manufacturers are adapting similar versions for higher end hybrids), so a smart move might be to add a small pancake motor to almost any Honda as an option with a small battery pack. In fact, it would be better in larger vehicles. A 200 lbs weight penalty for 70-80 lbs-ft of torque and 20-30 hp in a 4000+ lbs Odyssey or Pilot would be almost unnoticed and a 2-3 mpg improvement (which would equate to a 10-15% improvement) would be worth it for a $2k-$3k premium on a $30k+ vehicle. The payback would be on the order of 8-10 years which isn't unreasonable.
But to compete in the fuel economy/green wars (which I am against BTW) as Honda seems to want, they're going to have to do better. Or, simply go a different way.
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No arguments with the fact the current IMA is not cutting it for whatever reason: marketing, tech, engine size implementation...all of the above...
If the next Accord passes the mustard then my faith in Honda will be somewhat restored and i'll have some hope that Honda will reveal some new and clever IMA tricks up their sleeve...only time will tell.
I think I'm one of the original 'enthusiast whiners' on ToV as opposed to the 'apologists' so i'm not holding my breath for something 'VTEC'-like anytime soon...
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jero
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Japan CR-Z sales data:
Jan - 739
Feb - 614
Mar - 725
Apr - 342
May - 345
So what happened to the argument that Honda wasn't importing them due to the yen ratio? What happened to the CR-Z when it presold 10,000 units in Japan the first month and everyone creamed their pants? All this investment and now Honda doesn't want to build it... anywhere? What is the flipping point then?!
The CR-Z likely isn't even mustering 1,000/mo WORLDWIDE.
Thank you for the japan sales data. I've been asking for it for months. I am astonished it merely matches US sales. Insane.
So... what is Honda going to start building in the US? Are we going to get any of these hot sellers in japan, or are they going to continue to force the failed insight / CRZ? They can't seem to give either one of those away anywhere in the world. Or is Honda finally going to realize they are both simply a swing and a miss and just ax both of them?
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mobis21
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You guys sure put a lot of energy into a car that Honda isn't even shipping to the USA.
why?
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HONDA AFVM
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jero wrote:
I'm just going to do this every month as a FYI. I will also include avg gas prices in the US (price is actually for the end of the month with recorded sales), and total new US inventory according to cars.com.
We'll see if there are any trends with gas prices/availability/weather/or ???
CR-Z sales summary:
2010
August - 694 (7 days)
September - 1276
October - 1419
November - 1024
December - 876
2011
January - 894
February - 1091
March - 1,685
April - 1,819
May. - 1557
June - 966
July - 878
August - 745
September - 537
October - 289
November - 305
December - 564 ($3.26)
2012
January - 363 ($3.42)
February - 466 ($3.72)
March - 536 ($3.90/gal, Cars.com = 847 available)
April - 334 ($3.80/gal, Cars.com = 713)
May - 296 ($3.63/gal, Cars.com = 694)
June - 409 ($3.39/gal, Cars.com = 1018)
July - 330 ($3.53/gal, Cars.com = 1116)
2010 monthly avg... 1322
2011 monthly avg... 944
2012 monthly avg... 391
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WOW!........This is a very detailed chart........it's a wake up call........Thanks.....
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Tigerriot
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No back seat and most people don't want to drive hybrids.
Make the car 6 inches longer, give it a back seat, and give it the Civic engine. They'd sell twice as many of these things.
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kidoairaku
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I dont know why, I like this monthly thread, its fun to read.
CRZ is a fail and I dont think Honda cares anymore based on sales numbers even in the home market, it did fine for the first few years which is typical of Japanese sales of trendy items/cars. Hopefully whoever decided to bring it here to north america learned how poorly they understood the market.
Here on this thread however, we continue to beat the CRZ down and care more about it then Honda themselves.
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sugaki
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jero wrote:
So... what is Honda going to start building in the US? Are we going to get any of these hot sellers in japan, or are they going to continue to force the failed insight / CRZ? They can't seem to give either one of those away anywhere in the world. Or is Honda finally going to realize they are both simply a swing and a miss and just ax both of them?
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I still put the blame on Ito. Stubborn on all the wrong things, a sell-out on all the wrongs things too.
Comparing Prius sales to the Insight doesn't even tell the whole picture. The Toyota Aqua (aka Prius C stateside) is selling like hotcakes in Japan--they literally cannot keep up with demand. They targeted 12,000/units per month (pretty darn ambitious), and it went way over that. They sell anywhere from 20-30k a month of those.
Bottom line, Honda needs to come up with something better than IMA. They keep pig-headedly shoving it into cars that suck. And the one car it'd be nice to have it on--Fit Hybrid--they don't release here.
It's sad to see how far Honda has fallen, and it seems blasse about it all.
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fladdams2k1
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sugaki wrote:
jero wrote:
So... what is Honda going to start building in the US? Are we going to get any of these hot sellers in japan, or are they going to continue to force the failed insight / CRZ? They can't seem to give either one of those away anywhere in the world. Or is Honda finally going to realize they are both simply a swing and a miss and just ax both of them?
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I still put the blame on Ito. Stubborn on all the wrong things, a sell-out on all the wrongs things too.
Comparing Prius sales to the Insight doesn't even tell the whole picture. The Toyota Aqua (aka Prius C stateside) is selling like hotcakes in Japan--they literally cannot keep up with demand. They targeted 12,000/units per month (pretty darn ambitious), and it went way over that. They sell anywhere from 20-30k a month of those.
Bottom line, Honda needs to come up with something better than IMA. They keep pig-headedly shoving it into cars that suck. And the one car it'd be nice to have it on--Fit Hybrid--they don't release here.
It's sad to see how far Honda has fallen, and it seems blasse about it all.
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Interesting point on the Prius C. What's more interesting is, I actually like this more so than the regular Prius and the 'lower' cost is side benefit. However, they are literally so hot (well as of a month ago anyway), they dont have many in stock and aren't really dealing on the ones they do have. They dont have to, they sell themselves.
The CRZ on the other hand, is in stark contrast to the Prius C. I saw at least 8 sitting on a dealer's lot near me, with not so much as anyone giving them a curious glance. Not only that, there are several available slightly used in my area, with almost any color and trim combo one would want. Each one has like 1,200-9k miles, leaving one to deduce that someone got awfully tired of it quickly. Its not a supply issue; the car's a dud and any pent up demand for it at the beginning has been realized. In fact, those are probably the trade ins with less than 10k miles. The car is just too many compromises in one package (size, power, economy, seating, etc) and meets such a small percentage of buyers actual requirements, it really shouldve never been built. At least not for the USDM in hybrid ONLY. That was the nail in the CRZ's coffin..had this been avail even with just the standard Fit's 1.5 ltr and a 6 speed, it wouldve been a hit.
There's also a large percentage of people who will never buy a hybrid no matter what and others that are scared off by the battery issues....so what's Honda's response? They actually give MORE reason to be suspicious of their products by being cheap and nasty when they experience problems. There aren't literally thousands of stories on the internet about the SAME problem with a Prius that Toyota is refusing to fix or even acknowledge. Perception or reality, the Prius is a quality product that almost anyone can get high 40's to 50 mpg in without employing every measure under the sun like coasting, refusing to give overweight friends rides, inflating the tires until they're almost rocks, etc and battery issues are nearly nonexistent. Toyota did it right; they solidly established a core offering and then expanded the line once it was proven in terms of reliability and consistent MPG. Honda will NEVER catch Toyota in the hybrid market. They will always trail and lose money on this venture, because whatever competitive edge they might have had with the 1st gen Insight was blown out of the water with a series of bad decisions and cost cutting. IMO, Honda shouldve done what Ford did and partner with Toyota on HSD versus trying to beat them with a subpar, problem-plagued system like IMA. It wouldve likely been cheaper than continuing to push and support IMA and since the Civic looks and drives way better than the Prius, with a reliable HSD system and rock solid 50 mpg, it would be a great seller.
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DrWhiner
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notyper wrote:
@kidoairaku
You've perfectly reinforced my point. The CR-Z and Insight don't even sell in Honda hybrid friendly Japan (and the Civic hybrid isn't even available). Yet for some reason Honda felt the need to design and build them. They do nothing for Honda's CAFE numbers, nothing for the bottom line and really nothing positive for Honda's image.
Honda would have been better served by bringing the Fit Hybrid to the US (which is a far better car than the Insight IMO) and spending the CR-Z and Insight money on something better for the brand.
And yes, I understand the Fit is expensive to import. But would it have been any worse than the Insight even if it was only available in limited quantities? And it certainly would have helped lend impetus to moving Fit production to North America.
SC
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LOL. Consider that Honda sold 2/3 to 1/2 less regualr vehicles in JP compared with the USA.
So, for apple to apple comparison, it's like CR-Z is selling at 6k to 8k for the FIRST FIVE months in the U.S., close to its 15k target.
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DrWhiner
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jero wrote:
The CR-Z likely isn't even mustering 1,000/mo WORLDWIDE.
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??? Wonder how do you know?
Just by adding JP and USA's sales, it's very close to 1k a month.
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