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sadlerau
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Well Stoner did it again, a great race win to steady his championship season, though I'm afraid the horse may have bolted already. Gotta love the way he attacks that kink in the main straight at Laguna :)
http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/182477/1/casey_stoner_goes_soft_for_smart_win.html
It would help if Pedrossa could up his game and start taking points off Lorenzo - on a regular basis. Still worry that he is not up to leading the Honda charge against Lorenzo in 2013?
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IntegraDC5R
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Well Stoner just needs to win the remaining 8 races and the championship will be his regardless of what Dani does. Yes, what I just said is very unlikely, but anything is possible. Really hoping Casey can win his 3rd championship and retire at the top.
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danielgr
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sadlerau wrote:
Well Stoner did it again, a great race win to steady his championship season, though I'm afraid the horse may have bolted already. Gotta love the way he attacks that kink in the main straight at Laguna :)
http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/182477/1/casey_stoner_goes_soft_for_smart_win.html
It would help if Pedrossa could up his game and start taking points off Lorenzo - on a regular basis. Still worry that he is not up to leading the Honda charge against Lorenzo in 2013?
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Clearly this year so far Lorenzo has bested both Honda riders, not necessarily at every race, but for sure he has been the most consistent at an impressive level.
As for Stoner, to be honest this year he is the one to be blowing it off. When you are the best you owe to beat your teammate, and if Stoner had done so at every race this year he would be on top of the standings. Fact is with no illness no particular misfortune (having arm-pump problems at a single race ain't big handicap) the Aussie is behind the Spaniard, and that's Honda's real problem this year. Obviously the factory would like their bike to be so competitive than his riders don't even have to sweat to be ahead, but com'on, this is racing at the world's highest level, you can't expect that massive advantage every day.
To me the most possitive thing for Dani is that this one may be the first season where he made no single stupid mistake, nor broken anything in a long while. Personally, I rather see him ending the year in one piece than wining a couple of races more. What this guy trully needs is getting a stable confidence on himself not going to break appart, then he may have what it takes. Maybe not on equal machinery, but that's where Honda is supposed to come and build the best.
I still hope that Stoner can put himself together with the tires (on this race he was the only one racing on soft compound, which had previously been banned to use in race by Bridgestone), and that several Honda 1-2 will give him a nice retirement present. So far though, he is not delivering on his promise of being the best rider in the world, he has two riders in front of him, and I don't think any of them has a better package.
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P54
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Stoner was denied to continue the race were he fell, despite having 15 seconds lead. If he continued he would have gained points. One year before when Rossi fell the marshals helped Rossi continue.
This time around Stoner lost pole due to traffic hindering him while Lorenzo got pole even though his time was credited him after the qualifying session had expired.
For Stoner to pass Pedrosa and then Lorenzo at the pace they were going was a feat in itself. Then to build up a lead of 3.5 seconds to Lorenzo on the final few laps speaks volume on Stoner's capabilities. Lorenzo gave everything he had.
Without Lorenzo Yamaha would be without a chance and other bikes are nowhere near the Honda. Even a rookie on a Honda satellite bike is able to beat Hayden and Rossi on Ducati.
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sadlerau
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With all due respect Daniel, you have no idea what it must be like to compete at that level.
Even Lorenzo fell last year, mainly because of how hard he was pushing. The difference between the top tier - Lorenzo and Stoner and Rossi, and the second tier of Pedrossa and Spies et all, is how they are able to ride on the very edge of tyre grip for longer. The same is true in F1 and all forms of motorsport.
Stoner is struggling with the feedback he is getting from this year's Bridgestone front hoop, and for someone who lives so close to the edge that is critical. But Stoner is not someone to sit back and accept defeat easily, so he keeps pushing, and on a few occasions this year he has come up short. On other days, he will sit back and accept defeat, but that is to be expected of a "family man".
Daniel wrote-
So far though, he is not delivering on his promise of being the best rider in the world, he has two riders in front of him, and I don't think any of them has a better package.
I don't have to defend Stoner, his results do a far better job than I ever could. :) Actually, Stoner and Lorenzo on the "same" bike would be a lot of fun to watch.
P54, Lorenzo's lap time in Qualifying stood because he started the lap before the chequered flag fell. And Stoner's fastest lap, how fast would it have been had he not been held up on the last corner??
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danielgr
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sadlerau wrote:
With all due respect Daniel, you have no idea what it must be like to compete at that level.
Even Lorenzo fell last year, mainly because of how hard he was pushing. The difference between the top tier - Lorenzo and Stoner and Rossi, and the second tier of Pedrossa and Spies et all, is how they are able to ride on the very edge of tyre grip for longer. The same is true in F1 and all forms of motorsport.
Stoner is struggling with the feedback he is getting from this year's Bridgestone front hoop, and for someone who lives so close to the edge that is critical. But Stoner is not someone to sit back and accept defeat easily, so he keeps pushing, and on a few occasions this year he has come up short. On other days, he will sit back and accept defeat, but that is to be expected of a "family man".
Daniel wrote-
So far though, he is not delivering on his promise of being the best rider in the world, he has two riders in front of him, and I don't think any of them has a better package.
I don't have to defend Stoner, his results do a far better job than I ever could. :) Actually, Stoner and Lorenzo on the "same" bike would be a lot of fun to watch.
P54, Lorenzo's lap time in Qualifying stood because he started the lap before the chequered flag fell. And Stoner's fastest lap, how fast would it have been had he not been held up on the last corner??
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Talking traffic on fast laps or not getting a point here or there after crashing doesn't make the difference between P1 and P3. To be at the top you need to get everything right, or at least better than the rest, and on the first half of the season Stoner simply has not, which is why he is 3rd in the championship behind his teammate despite having the best (or at least nearly the best) machine on the grid with the best (or at least nearly the best) team.
The tires and so on, rules are the same for everyone, if they don't suit his style well, others may have said that past years fit him much better than theirs. At the end of the day, unless some moron takes you out or you are riding a subpair bike, those doing a better job are those ahead.
And again, I sure hope Indianapolis is the turning point from which Stoner will recover 2011 form and cruise to the title, but simply don't like when people start making up excuses; this year he has none.
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sadlerau
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danielgr wrote:
I have the feeling you are getting this a bit personal on the Aussie thing. I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. To me the best rider is the one wining unless he is in inferior machinery. Past year Stoner was that man, this year he may become it, but so far he has not been.
Talking traffic on fast laps or not getting a point here or there after crashing doesn't make the difference between P1 and P3. To be at the top you need to get everything right, or at least better than the rest, and on the first half of the season Stoner simply has not, which is why he is 3rd in the championship behind his teammate despite having the best (or at least nearly the best) machine on the grid with the best (or at least nearly the best) team.
The tires and so on, rules are the same for everyone, if they don't suit his style well, others may have said that past years fit him much better than theirs. At the end of the day, unless some moron takes you out or you are riding a subpair bike, those doing a better job are those ahead.
And again, I sure hope Indianapolis is the turning point from which Stoner will recover 2011 form and cruise to the title, but simply don't like when people start making up excuses; this year he has none.
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No I'm not taking this at a personal level, or because I happen to be an Aussie. And I certainly wont be hurt in any way :)
But your view of elite motorsport competition is a bit simplistic. There are many variables that must come together for an athlete to reach his otimum performance, and for Moto GP riders it mostly about the "feel" they experience from the front tyre. Stoner was doing ok early in the season, even though he didn't like the interaction of this year's chassis with the tyres. And then Bridgestone went and changed the front tyre to one Stoner liked even less! Since then he has generally struggled. But that doesn't mean he has lost his ability, any less than Rossi has "lost" his ability because he is on the Ducati. Was I saying Lorenzo was a lesser rider last year because the Yamaha was not on a par with the 2011 Honda? I think not :) So Stoner is no less a rider because the front tyres won't allow him to exploit the Honda's speed as much as he would like.
All those GP riders have geat courage and skill, I don't think the more courageous are any faster than the less courageous, they just crash more. But the riders who eek out that last fraction of adhesion from their tyres, without over-stepping to the point of crashing are the ones who go faster. If your not getting the feedback to allow you to use that last fraction of advantage you have, then your not going to be faster. If you then try and use that last fraction of adhesion without the feel, you crash, or if your lucky you have a "moment" and get to continue on, having lost time.
Without trying to be rude, perhaps it is difficult to understand if you haven't competed in motorsport??
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P54
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sadlerau wrote:
With all due respect Daniel, you have no idea what it must be like to compete at that level.
Even Lorenzo fell last year, mainly because of how hard he was pushing. The difference between the top tier - Lorenzo and Stoner and Rossi, and the second tier of Pedrossa and Spies et all, is how they are able to ride on the very edge of tyre grip for longer. The same is true in F1 and all forms of motorsport.
Stoner is struggling with the feedback he is getting from this year's Bridgestone front hoop, and for someone who lives so close to the edge that is critical. But Stoner is not someone to sit back and accept defeat easily, so he keeps pushing, and on a few occasions this year he has come up short. On other days, he will sit back and accept defeat, but that is to be expected of a "family man".
Daniel wrote-
So far though, he is not delivering on his promise of being the best rider in the world, he has two riders in front of him, and I don't think any of them has a better package.
I don't have to defend Stoner, his results do a far better job than I ever could. :) Actually, Stoner and Lorenzo on the "same" bike would be a lot of fun to watch.
P54, Lorenzo's lap time in Qualifying stood because he started the lap before the chequered flag fell. And Stoner's fastest lap, how fast would it have been had he not been held up on the last corner??
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So the rule is if you start your lap (in qualifying) before checkered flag falls you can finish the lap? Anyhow I'm sure Stoner would have the better lap had he not been hindered at the end of his lap.
Do you have any explanation why Stoner at 15 seconds in the lead over Lorenzo, while trying to pass Pedrosa and fell was denied to go back on the track (In Germany, I think)?
He was unhurt and the bike ride-able, yet was prevented by the marshals to continue. If I'm not wrong the year before I think Rossi fell and so did Stoner or another Honda rider and the marshals came to help Rossi and pushed him back on the track while the Honda rider was left to himself.
Any comments on that?
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sadlerau
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P54 wrote:
Do you have any explanation why Stoner at 15 seconds in the lead over Lorenzo, while trying to pass Pedrosa and fell was denied to go back on the track (In Germany, I think)?
He was unhurt and the bike ride-able, yet was prevented by the marshals to continue. If I'm not wrong the year before I think Rossi fell and so did Stoner or another Honda rider and the marshals came to help Rossi and pushed him back on the track while the Honda rider was left to himself.
Any comments on that?
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The governing body has stated that marshals shall not endanger themselves in any effort to help riders re-start their bikes. There was no footage from Stoner's fall that showed how dangerous it would have been for the marshals to help kick start Stoner's bike. But if they needed to drag the bike onto the side of the race track to kick start it [as opposed to say using some run-off area on the other side of a sand trap] then I don't see that anyone should complain. Having people milling around on the edge of a race track is not a smart thing.
The incident as I remember it at one of the Italian races, involving Rossi, going back a couple of years was not as bad as Stoner portrayed it. The marshalls did try and help kick start Stoner's Honda, but it wouldn't fire so they gave up after 20 meters, whereas Rossi's bike started relatively easy. As someone who has been involved in motorsport for 20 odd years, it always scares me when I see people rush out and stand on the race surface - they are courageous people who go out and help the fallen riders. But I agree with the officials on this one, they shouldn't spend anymore time out there than is absolutely necessary.
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IntegraDC5R
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Well that race that Rossi was helped, all the marshals ran to be his aide and not a single one to Stoner and Stoner struggled to pick his bike up on his own and was trying to get it going. Rossi's bike was not immediately up and running. I still remember Stoner looking over probably screaming for help and you could just see the disgust in his body language. If I remember correctly there were like 5 marshals out there, 2 of them couldn't have went to help Stoner versus sticking their thumb up another's ass watching?
P54, this is true of all motorsports, as long as your lap starts before the flag is shown, even just .1 or less of a second before, that lap counts for qualifying.
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sadlerau
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IntegraDC5R wrote:
Well that race that Rossi was helped, all the marshals ran to be his aide and not a single one to Stoner and Stoner struggled to pick his bike up on his own and was trying to get it going. Rossi's bike was not immediately up and running. I still remember Stoner looking over probably screaming for help and you could just see the disgust in his body language. If I remember correctly there were like 5 marshals out there, 2 of them couldn't have went to help Stoner versus sticking their thumb up another's ass watching?
P54, this is true of all motorsports, as long as your lap starts before the flag is shown, even just .1 or less of a second before, that lap counts for qualifying.
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Actually there is a section in this video, at about 23 seconds where you see the marshalls run over to help push Stoner's bike. Yes they did help Rossi first, then went to help Stoner. :)
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsport/moto-gp-mayhem-stoner-livid-after-rossi-crash-20110404-1ctiq.html
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P54
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Thanks for the info!
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IntegraDC5R
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Yes, they eventually attempted to help, I take that back there were like 7 or 8 marshals out there, not a single one went to Stoner till Rossi was already away. My previous statement/question still stands, not even 2 guys could have gone over immediately to help Stoner versus himself trying to get going and all of them attended to Rossi, it was in Spain, so putting a conspiracy out there, it was 2nd race of the year and Stoner looked dominant and failing to help it was a chance to get Jorge or Dani the win, which Jorge took with Dani 2nd and Stoner left with nothing, but that wonderful comment to Rossi in the pits. That was or will be a classic.
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sadlerau
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IntegraDC5R wrote:
..................... but that wonderful comment to Rossi in the pits. That was or will be a classic.
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Yes that comment “Obviously your ambition outweighed your talent.” was a classic! Still makes me laugh :)
And Honda addressed the Honda's re-start problem with some sort of fix that reduces the engine compression for a kick start? Not perfect but better.
Stoner's frustration was understandable, but his reaction to the marshals was a little over the top. Of course they would have been drawn to Rossi, an absolute hero to so many, and he was still on the ground while Stoner was already standing and trying to pick up his bike.
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