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longhorn
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http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-cadillac-ats-first-drive-review-fitting-in-with-the-germans-page-2
http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/ats/2013/2013-cadillac-ats-premium-full-test.html
To sum it up, GM delivered, the only weak spot seems to be the motors, but the chassis is competent.
I ask this question again, in Acura marketing what vehicle in Acura's product line competes with this? Does Acura think the ILX is the ATS competitor,or is it the TL? If the next gen TL stays the same size will it be a competitor to the ATS? The ATS is going to sell........period, so Acura will have to address it in its marketing materials.
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danielgr
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I'm sorry if you take it badly but... sometimes I really wonder if you guys have some serious reading comprehension problems, or is it simply that you rather post a link together with something you'd already thought before than actually reading what you are talking about...
Otherwise, how on earth could anyone ask "does Acura think the ILX is the ATS competitor?" when talking about two cars:
- one starting at 26K, selling with powertrains from 110 to 200Hp, and
- the other starting at 44k with powertrains ranging from 272Hp to 321Hp ...
The one tested by InsideLine with the V6 was 48k? What kind of ILX would you like Acura to compare it to ????????
With the current TL starting at 36K and topping at 45K with AWD and everything you can imagine as an option, I'm not even sure the TLX will qualify as an ATS competitor. That car sits right now between the RL and the TL, so you'll have to wait until Honda repositions their offering to see where it fits in.
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DCR
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danielgr wrote:
Otherwise, how on earth could anyone ask "does Acura think the ILX is the ATS competitor?" when talking about two cars:
- one starting at 26K, selling with powertrains from 110 to 200Hp, and
- the other starting at 44k with powertrains ranging from 272Hp to 321Hp ...
The one tested by InsideLine with the V6 was 48k? What kind of ILX would you like Acura to compare it to ????????
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I'm sorry if you take it badly Daniel, but apparently, you can't read either.
Go back and check your facts on starting prices and ranges.
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dominik331
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danielgr wrote:
I'm sorry if you take it badly but... sometimes I really wonder if you guys have some serious reading comprehension problems, or is it simply that you rather post a link together with something you'd already thought before than actually reading what you are talking about...
Otherwise, how on earth could anyone ask "does Acura think the ILX is the ATS competitor?" when talking about two cars:
- one starting at 26K, selling with powertrains from 110 to 200Hp, and
- the other starting at 44k with powertrains ranging from 272Hp to 321Hp ...
The one tested by InsideLine with the V6 was 48k? What kind of ILX would you like Acura to compare it to ????????
With the current TL starting at 36K and topping at 45K with AWD and everything you can imagine as an option, I'm not even sure the TLX will qualify as an ATS competitor. That car sits right now between the RL and the TL, so you'll have to wait until Honda repositions their offering to see where it fits in.
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The way "I" interpreted his comment was: What does Acura have to offer in this segment, not necessarily that the ILX is its direct competitor.
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danielgr
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DCR wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Otherwise, how on earth could anyone ask "does Acura think the ILX is the ATS competitor?" when talking about two cars:
- one starting at 26K, selling with powertrains from 110 to 200Hp, and
- the other starting at 44k with powertrains ranging from 272Hp to 321Hp ...
The one tested by InsideLine with the V6 was 48k? What kind of ILX would you like Acura to compare it to ????????
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I'm sorry if you take it badly Daniel, but apparently, you can't read either.
Go back and check your facts on starting prices and ranges.
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I sure don't take it badly. All I did was read inside line article and the info quoted there. I have no more interest in a car of an automaker that's not available where I live, but feel free to correct what I wrote if it was wrongly stated by inside inline or misunderstood by me.
PS: Are you also wondering if the ATS is an ILX competitor ??? If anything I am starting to feel sorry for GM...
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longhorn
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Danielgr, when Acura debuts the RLX to the press there comparative vehicles from the competition there to compare. Most likely there will be a Caddy XTS there to compare with the FWD RL trim. The present TL had the BMW 5 on hand at its debut. The new TL next year will most likely have a CTS there,to compare with the AWD TL.
The ATS will be Caddys intro product to the brand. The ILX is Acura's intro to the brand. This segment is one of the most popular and profitable.
The previous TL was compared to the BMW 3. So I ask...AGAIN, what is Acura's answer to this segment? Maybe Jeff, could answer this question, when you went to the TSX press debut, what competitive vehicles did Acura have on hand ?
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Hondu
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danielgr wrote:
DCR wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Otherwise, how on earth could anyone ask "does Acura think the ILX is the ATS competitor?" when talking about two cars:
- one starting at 26K, selling with powertrains from 110 to 200Hp, and
- the other starting at 44k with powertrains ranging from 272Hp to 321Hp ...
The one tested by InsideLine with the V6 was 48k? What kind of ILX would you like Acura to compare it to ????????
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I'm sorry if you take it badly Daniel, but apparently, you can't read either.
Go back and check your facts on starting prices and ranges.
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I sure don't take it badly. All I did was read inside line article and the info quoted there. I have no more interest in a car of an automaker that's not available where I live, but feel free to correct what I wrote if it was wrongly stated by inside inline or misunderstood by me.
PS: Are you also wondering if the ATS is an ILX competitor ??? If anything I am starting to feel sorry for GM...
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If you read both articles, the ATS starts around $34K for a 2.5L I4 with 200 HP (so, close in price to the ILX). The model they reviewed in Inside Line was the top-of-the-line V6 model with 321HP and fully loaded at the $48K price.
So, the top end of the ATS does not compare to the ILX, but the base model is pretty close pricewise to the top end 2.4L ILX (the Hybrid is $35K, but in no way would I say it competes with the ATS).
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MarkR
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Hahaha lot's of arguing on TOV again :)
Well, seems like Honda/Acura are trying to find niches that have no competitors because if a niche have another member they will lose, so bad are their current products.
Name one niche where Honda is the top dog? No, and I don't mean number of vechiles sold, but attractiveness as a product.
When I buy toiletpaper I don't buy what's most expensive, I don't care if another brand has something softer... but when I buy a bed or running shoes I usually choose among the best more expensive options, not what is the best seller according items sold.
I hope Honda reads this someday and thinks, shut up MarkR, we will show you, it's not only beancounting, we actually deliver the most attractive product regardless of it costs 7k more or less.
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MarkR
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To add to that, I read that Renault is financially not in a very strong position right now, actually the whole French car industry is according to business newpapers in bad shape.
BUT, guess what, the new Renault Megane Sport (or whatever it's called 265hp hothatch) was named one of the most exciting small cars/hot hatches in several car magazines lately. Apparently people find they make good products, it's just the bean counters who hate their own company, maybe they don't exist 2025 any longer? Oh well, people can switch to Honda then....
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superchg2
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MarkR wrote:
I hope Honda reads this someday and thinks, shut up MarkR, we will show you, it's not only beancounting, we actually deliver the most attractive product regardless of it costs 7k more or less.
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Honda has managed to consistently make a profit while other Japanese car companies have shown losses, recently.
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notyper
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I kind of figured the 200 hp 2.5 would be the price leader to get people into showrooms, and might find its way in to the hands of young semi-well to do college girls whose parents wanted to get them something besides a BMW.
However, I am disappointed with the initial reviews of the 2.0 turbo. This engine when it first came out was really awesome. Quick spool up and strong midrange with surprising top end. This is the same basic engine that propelled the old Cobalt SS turbo (about 2900 lbs) to 1/4 mile trap speeds in the 101-102 mph range. As such, I would hope that the slightly more powerful engine in the 3300 lbs CTS-V would at least provide a sub 15-second 1/4 mile and mid-6 second 0-60 with a nice feeling midrange. But it doesn't sound like that. Too bad.
As for the V6. It's just another mid-sized NA V6 in a group of a lot of them. About as quick as the C350, G37, TL. A little behind the 335 and way behind the A4 3.0T (which admittedly is a lot more expensive). The ATS-V is going to need to be sub $60k and offer more than 400 hp.
SC
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CarPhreakD
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I'll be honest... for several years now (pretty much decades), car manufacturer after car manufacturer has tried to knock off the 3-series. Some came close. But I don't think any has ever really succeeded.
And I don't think the ATS succeeds either. At best it sounds like a credible alternative, albeit with terrible powertrain options.
At this point it almost seems like the only way to knock the 3-series off its perch is if BMW messes the car up by itself.
MarkR wrote:
To add to that, I read that Renault is financially not in a very strong position right now, actually the whole French car industry is according to business newpapers in bad shape.
BUT, guess what, the new Renault Megane Sport (or whatever it's called 265hp hothatch) was named one of the most exciting small cars/hot hatches in several car magazines lately. Apparently people find they make good products, it's just the bean counters who hate their own company, maybe they don't exist 2025 any longer? Oh well, people can switch to Honda then....
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Renault is in financial trouble because of overcapacity, nobody is buying, and nobody wants to fire anyone. Detroit had to go through this kind of pain, it looks like the Euro-weenies have their heads up their collective asses and won't do whats necessary to relieve the pain.
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Hondu
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I'll be honest... for several years now (pretty much decades), car manufacturer after car manufacturer has tried to knock off the 3-series. Some came close. But I don't think any has ever really succeeded.
And I don't think the ATS succeeds either. At best it sounds like a credible alternative, albeit with terrible powertrain options.
At this point it almost seems like the only way to knock the 3-series off its perch is if BMW messes the car up by itself.
MarkR wrote:
To add to that, I read that Renault is financially not in a very strong position right now, actually the whole French car industry is according to business newpapers in bad shape.
BUT, guess what, the new Renault Megane Sport (or whatever it's called 265hp hothatch) was named one of the most exciting small cars/hot hatches in several car magazines lately. Apparently people find they make good products, it's just the bean counters who hate their own company, maybe they don't exist 2025 any longer? Oh well, people can switch to Honda then....
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Renault is in financial trouble because of overcapacity, nobody is buying, and nobody wants to fire anyone. Detroit had to go through this kind of pain, it looks like the Euro-weenies have their heads up their collective asses and won't do whats necessary to relieve the pain.
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I went to the Cadillac website and built out a 2L Turbo model. It may be competitive to the 3-series, but it is priced like one as well. Very easy to equip one to cost 45-50K. I see heavy discounting in Cadillac's future. Why pay BMW prices and not get a BMW?
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CivicB18
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notyper wrote:
I kind of figured the 200 hp 2.5 would be the price leader to get people into showrooms, and might find its way in to the hands of young semi-well to do college girls whose parents wanted to get them something besides a BMW.
However, I am disappointed with the initial reviews of the 2.0 turbo. This engine when it first came out was really awesome. Quick spool up and strong midrange with surprising top end. This is the same basic engine that propelled the old Cobalt SS turbo (about 2900 lbs) to 1/4 mile trap speeds in the 101-102 mph range. As such, I would hope that the slightly more powerful engine in the 3300 lbs CTS-V would at least provide a sub 15-second 1/4 mile and mid-6 second 0-60 with a nice feeling midrange. But it doesn't sound like that. Too bad.
As for the V6. It's just another mid-sized NA V6 in a group of a lot of them. About as quick as the C350, G37, TL. A little behind the 335 and way behind the A4 3.0T (which admittedly is a lot more expensive). The ATS-V is going to need to be sub $60k and offer more than 400 hp.
SC
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Car and Driver:
"Next up was the 2.0-liter turbocharged four with 272 ponies and 260 lb-ft of torque. Smoother than the 2.5-liter, it’s still louder at full power than the Audi or BMW turbo fours, but it also can run with them (0 to 60 in the high fives)."
The manual ATS 2.0T should EASILY be a sub 15 second car. I'd guess anywhere from 14.0 to 14.40 which would put in line with the 328i.
The stout V6 seems a bit off the pace as it's a relatively light car.
~Patrick
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TonyEX
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Never you mind having a 4 or 5 cylinder engine in a Cadillac...
I guess that fundamentally I wonder why Cadillac is even doing a car of this size. Why is it even doing a car that offers anything less than a V6?
The specter of the Cimarron, even if the ATS is a _real_ car, of the 8-6-4 nightmare, still hover. Cadillac -and Lincoln- always meant large, luxurious cars and for Cadillac to enter this niche means that it's stepping on Buick's toes.
Unless, of course, Buick is meant to be GMs' China brand.
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CivicB18
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TonyE wrote:
Never you mind having a 4 or 5 cylinder engine in a Cadillac...
I guess that fundamentally I wonder why Cadillac is even doing a car of this size. Why is it even doing a car that offers anything less than a V6?
The specter of the Cimarron, even if the ATS is a _real_ car, of the 8-6-4 nightmare, still hover. Cadillac -and Lincoln- always meant large, luxurious cars and for Cadillac to enter this niche means that it's stepping on Buick's toes.
Unless, of course, Buick is meant to be GMs' China brand.
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How does the ATS step on Buicks toes? This cars chassis is light years ahead of anything Buick has to offer. The sportiest offering from Buick currently would be the 4000lb Buick Regal GS 2.0T of which the much lighter ATS 2.0T would run circles around.
I guess I'm one of the few here who's actually very interested in the ATS and who applauds Cadillac for going head to head with the Germans. To add to that Cadillac just announced the proposal for a large RWD flagship has been approved for development. Really makes me wish Acura could grow some balls and fight fire with fire instead of creating niches and so-so products (MDX excluded).
~Patrick
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Grace141
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The Cimarron debutted a long time ago and when you consider the development of the J-body cars began during the mid-'70s you have to give the cars a little slack. Small cars were something GM had zero expertise in developing unless you consider the Chevette/T1000 cars as having provided experience. The Cimarron was a good idea executed poorly which wasn't anything new for the GM of the '70s. GM successfully executed the Duramax diesel (yes, I know they had help) after their 350 diesel problems of the '80s, and they're successfully using Active Fuel Management on some products even though we remember 8-6-4.
I agree with the Buick vs. Cadillac problem GM has created in China. Buick China even gets some of the cool old 1950s Buick car names. The least GM could do for us Americans old enough to remember is to apply the Electra name to the Buicks having eAssist.
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longhorn
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Caddy built a car to go after the BMW 3 series but may actually end up doing collataral damage to others. Those who want a MB or BMW will buy or lease one no matter how good or better value the competition is. I think Infiniti is finding that out right now. I expect this car to sell in similar numbers of the 3 series without hurting the 3 sales numbers. I think the sales may come from Acura, Infiniti, Lexus and mainstream brands.
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notyper
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Patrick - those specs are Caddy quoted from CD, not actual test numbers. Insideline thought the 2.0 liter was pretty dull, and MT, which has a long term 328i right now, didn't have much good to say either.
Hopefully I'm wrong, but the 2.0 hasn't blown anyone's socks off yet.
SC
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TonyEX
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CivicB18 wrote:
TonyE wrote:
Never you mind having a 4 or 5 cylinder engine in a Cadillac...
I guess that fundamentally I wonder why Cadillac is even doing a car of this size. Why is it even doing a car that offers anything less than a V6?
The specter of the Cimarron, even if the ATS is a _real_ car, of the 8-6-4 nightmare, still hover. Cadillac -and Lincoln- always meant large, luxurious cars and for Cadillac to enter this niche means that it's stepping on Buick's toes.
Unless, of course, Buick is meant to be GMs' China brand.
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How does the ATS step on Buicks toes? This cars chassis is light years ahead of anything Buick has to offer. The sportiest offering from Buick currently would be the 4000lb Buick Regal GS 2.0T of which the much lighter ATS 2.0T would run circles around.
I guess I'm one of the few here who's actually very interested in the ATS and who applauds Cadillac for going head to head with the Germans. To add to that Cadillac just announced the proposal for a large RWD flagship has been approved for development. Really makes me wish Acura could grow some balls and fight fire with fire instead of creating niches and so-so products (MDX excluded).
~Patrick
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The issue is pretty much that... GM is giving this car to Cadillac, not to Buick.
In the scale of GM's remaining auto brands, Buick is in the middle. By having Cadillac offer a car with an entry price of $35K, GM is squeezing Buick out of the way. True, most ATS will likely be sold at much higher prices, the V6 is stickered in the high 40Ks, right?
Perhaps then, the mistake GM is making -IMHO- is offering such a wide price range with this car. They should spin a version for Buick in the 30Ks and then let Cadillac offer it with a high power V6 and small V8.
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CivicB18
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TonyE wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
TonyE wrote:
Never you mind having a 4 or 5 cylinder engine in a Cadillac...
I guess that fundamentally I wonder why Cadillac is even doing a car of this size. Why is it even doing a car that offers anything less than a V6?
The specter of the Cimarron, even if the ATS is a _real_ car, of the 8-6-4 nightmare, still hover. Cadillac -and Lincoln- always meant large, luxurious cars and for Cadillac to enter this niche means that it's stepping on Buick's toes.
Unless, of course, Buick is meant to be GMs' China brand.
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How does the ATS step on Buicks toes? This cars chassis is light years ahead of anything Buick has to offer. The sportiest offering from Buick currently would be the 4000lb Buick Regal GS 2.0T of which the much lighter ATS 2.0T would run circles around.
I guess I'm one of the few here who's actually very interested in the ATS and who applauds Cadillac for going head to head with the Germans. To add to that Cadillac just announced the proposal for a large RWD flagship has been approved for development. Really makes me wish Acura could grow some balls and fight fire with fire instead of creating niches and so-so products (MDX excluded).
~Patrick
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The issue is pretty much that... GM is giving this car to Cadillac, not to Buick.
In the scale of GM's remaining auto brands, Buick is in the middle. By having Cadillac offer a car with an entry price of $35K, GM is squeezing Buick out of the way. True, most ATS will likely be sold at much higher prices, the V6 is stickered in the high 40Ks, right?
Perhaps then, the mistake GM is making -IMHO- is offering such a wide price range with this car. They should spin a version for Buick in the 30Ks and then let Cadillac offer it with a high power V6 and small V8.
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This doesn't make sense. If Buick already had something that could directly be compared to the ATS then I could see your point. However, the ATS is a different type of car vs any Buick offered. Price aside I see this as no issue to Buick.
The only "issue" I see with the CTS is the base 2.5l. I don't think Cadillac should offer this model as this model is simply there to make the ATS have a lower price of entry vs its competitors. Regardless of any "issues", this car is still on my list of cars to sample.
~Patrick
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superchg2
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Grace141 wrote:
The Cimarron debutted a long time ago and when you consider the development of the J-body cars began during the mid-'70s you have to give the cars a little slack. Small cars were something GM had zero expertise in developing unless you consider the Chevette/T1000 cars as having provided experience.
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From 1960 to 1969, there was the Chevy Corvair.
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Inebriated Snake
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It seems like the ATS is a car in search of its engine.
Everything else from the drive, feel, materials and style is near perfect except the engines. GM just doesn't have the luxury quality lower displacement engines it needs to complete globally. Which is a shame.
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P54
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MarkR wrote:
Hahaha lot's of arguing on TOV again :)
Well, seems like Honda/Acura are trying to find niches that have no competitors because if a niche have another member they will lose, so bad are their current products.
Name one niche where Honda is the top dog? No, and I don't mean number of vechiles sold, but attractiveness as a product.
When I buy toiletpaper I don't buy what's most expensive, I don't care if another brand has something softer... but when I buy a bed or running shoes I usually choose among the best more expensive options, not what is the best seller according items sold.
I hope Honda reads this someday and thinks, shut up MarkR, we will show you, it's not only beancounting, we actually deliver the most attractive product regardless of it costs 7k more or less.
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Don't buy the cheapest either, might give you cancer in the butt.
"Recycled paper costs more to produce, causes higher tax rates and increases chemical pollution".
But recycled toilet paper cost less to consumer?
"The only reason the end cost is lower to the consumer is because the government subsidizes its production, passing the additional costs on to the taxpayer".
About softness:
"Environment protection campaigners say extra-soft, quilted and multi-ply toilet paper made from virgin forest causes more damage than gas-guzzlers, fast food or McMansions, the Guardian UK reported".
"Environmentalists say those specialty brands that put quilting and pockets of air between several layers of paper are especially damaging to the environment".
"Kimberly-Clark spent $25 million in its third quarter on advertising to persuade Americans against trusting their bottoms to cheaper brands, according to a recent Reuters report".
"Hershkowitz said over 98 percent of the toilet roll sold in America comes from virgin forests. In Europe and Latin America, up to 40 percent of toilet paper comes from recycled products".
"Statistics show that Americans already consume vastly more paper than any other country (3 times more per person than the average European, and 100 times more than the average person in China)."
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sa3eedi
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I've gotta say this car in certain trims is a pretty good deal.
If you build your-own on the website choosing the base 2.0t, it comes standard with the 6-speed auto. However, once you select the manual, it drops the price by almost $1100 and in addition to that deduction it gives you an LSD with the manual. This is all on a car that comes standard with keyless ignition, sport suspension, Brembos, and all the usual usb,bluetooth,...
If I had known I would've probably held back on the TSX for a while, it is missing somethings relative to the TSX like standard leather, HIDs, memory seats, heated seats($500 stand-alone option), but it still looks like in this trim its the current value-leader in the segment, and what looks to be a great drive
Plus, based on all of the other 2.0s out there, it won't be long at all before Trifecta has some tunes out for it
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