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Double J
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http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2012/07/watch-honda-turn-stock-civic-si-coupe.html
"To make a point about the association between its production cars and the race circuit, Honda released a video that documents the transformation of a stock 2012 Civic Si Coupe into a competition model for the Pirelli World Challenge or Grand Am series from its Compass360 Racing partner."
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superchg2
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Nice Video!
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garoto628
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And exactly what part is supposed to be easy lol? They trashed the entire car including the engine. Other than the tranny, exactly why isn't a civic DX a better (cheaper) option. I think Honda HPD sells the chassis and frame of the car alone, why wouldn't that be a better option ?
This video is just trying to highlight the racing herotage of the Si, when really, I don't think there is one (not one that helps this video any sense at least). Yuckhhh!
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outersquare
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I like how the first thing they do is pull the motor and throw away the integrated exhaust manifold setup.
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Mechanic
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I can understand the criticism, but I think it's misplaced. Preparation of a production automobile for any professional racing series is going to require the same things depicted in Honda's HPD video. Namely, removal of the street components such as the seats, carpeting, dash, door panels, etc., and installation of a roll-cage and components that are durable enough for racing at a professional level. Doesn't matter whether it's a Honda Civic Si, a Hyundai whatever, Ford Mustang, or Chevy Camaro. No one is taking street components to the track. No one.
What sets Honda aside is the fact that HPD facilitates the process. HPD has done the development work, and -- assuming you can afford it -- it's a matter of ordering the components from a menu of choices. Honda's program is no different that those of other manufacturers and better than most: you buy a prepared engine, suspension components, brakes, seating, instruments, etc. And I can tell you from experience having run a V-dub Rabbit in Volkswagen's Bilstein Cup series in the '80s that Honda's HPD program is vastly superior to what was available to the amateur gearhead then when you spent at least a season replacing components that failed for lack of development.
Again, I understand the criticism that, for example, HPD's development involves swapping the engine for one that includes a new head, intake and exhaust components. That, however, is true for any engine developed for competition. (How much of Chevy's ZR1 motor can be found in a Camaro production V-8? Zip-point-naught.) I, for one, think it's great that HPD exists and that American Honda is committed to supporting this series.
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typer_801
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While I agree with your positive sentiment regarding HPD's involvement in racing Honda's, I do believe you streched the truth in one of your statements.
In fact, quite a bit of a ZR-1 motor can be found in a new Camaro ZL-1.
The Camaro ZL-1 engine is based on the Cadillac CTS-V engine which itself shares most of it's parts with the ZR-1 motor.
From MotorTrend:
The engine is not. It’s a specially tuned version of the 6.2-liter supercharged LSA small block V-8 also used in the CTS-v. Here, the extra 24 horses come from its unique induction system with a lower-restriction air filter, dual inlet paths and improved supercharger housing airflow. The supercharger intercooler is of a higher efficiency.
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1109_2012_chevy_camaro_zl1_makes_580_horsepower/#ixzz21YNSoGq4
Details on the differences of the CTS-V and ZR-1 motors are available in this Autoblog deepdive.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/14/detroit-2008-2009-lsa-6-2l-superchar/
Mechanic wrote:
.. (How much of Chevy's ZR1 motor can be found in a Camaro production V-8? Zip-point-naught.)
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garoto628
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Mechanic wrote:
I can understand the criticism, but I think it's misplaced. Preparation of a production automobile for any professional racing series is going to require the same things depicted in Honda's HPD video. Namely, removal of the street components such as the seats, carpeting, dash, door panels, etc., and installation of a roll-cage and components that are durable enough for racing at a professional level. Doesn't matter whether it's a Honda Civic Si, a Hyundai whatever, Ford Mustang, or Chevy Camaro. No one is taking street components to the track. No one.
What sets Honda aside is the fact that HPD facilitates the process. HPD has done the development work, and -- assuming you can afford it -- it's a matter of ordering the components from a menu of choices. Honda's program is no different that those of other manufacturers and better than most: you buy a prepared engine, suspension components, brakes, seating, instruments, etc. And I can tell you from experience having run a V-dub Rabbit in Volkswagen's Bilstein Cup series in the '80s that Honda's HPD program is vastly superior to what was available to the amateur gearhead then when you spent at least a season replacing components that failed for lack of development.
Again, I understand the criticism that, for example, HPD's development involves swapping the engine for one that includes a new head, intake and exhaust components. That, however, is true for any engine developed for competition. (How much of Chevy's ZR1 motor can be found in a Camaro production V-8? Zip-point-naught.) I, for one, think it's great that HPD exists and that American Honda is committed to supporting this series.
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I agree with all you've said. I just think its marketing crap to credit the Civic Si the way they did, nothing about the Si made this process possible. A DX would've done the job
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Mechanic
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typer_801, you're right about the ZL-1 motor in the Camaro. But my point was that, aside from configuration (i.e., a V-8), that motor shares very little in common with the V-8 found in an SS Camaro. And stepping up to that magnificent V-8 and the associated hardware in the ZL-1 Camaro is going to cost you roughly $15k-$18k, or approximately a third more than an SS Camaro. Even then you won't a competitive, track-ready racer.
(As an aside, the ZL-1 Camaro is one hell of an automobile for $56k.)
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owequitit
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Mechanic wrote:
I can understand the criticism, but I think it's misplaced. Preparation of a production automobile for any professional racing series is going to require the same things depicted in Honda's HPD video. Namely, removal of the street components such as the seats, carpeting, dash, door panels, etc., and installation of a roll-cage and components that are durable enough for racing at a professional level. Doesn't matter whether it's a Honda Civic Si, a Hyundai whatever, Ford Mustang, or Chevy Camaro. No one is taking street components to the track. No one.
What sets Honda aside is the fact that HPD facilitates the process. HPD has done the development work, and -- assuming you can afford it -- it's a matter of ordering the components from a menu of choices. Honda's program is no different that those of other manufacturers and better than most: you buy a prepared engine, suspension components, brakes, seating, instruments, etc. And I can tell you from experience having run a V-dub Rabbit in Volkswagen's Bilstein Cup series in the '80s that Honda's HPD program is vastly superior to what was available to the amateur gearhead then when you spent at least a season replacing components that failed for lack of development.
Again, I understand the criticism that, for example, HPD's development involves swapping the engine for one that includes a new head, intake and exhaust components. That, however, is true for any engine developed for competition. (How much of Chevy's ZR1 motor can be found in a Camaro production V-8? Zip-point-naught.) I, for one, think it's great that HPD exists and that American Honda is committed to supporting this series.
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Sorry, mechanic, but only some of the criticism is misplaced.
Yes, it is reasonable for them to remove the non-essentials such as interior, a/c, etc. it is also reasonable to expect them to upgrade brakes etc. obviously, the safety features are mandated, but your assertions about the engine are wholly off base and it is yet another part of the reason the Honda enthusiasts are pissed off.
In the past, the Honda engines were run in SCCA and NASA challenges virtually stock. Upgrades were typically limited to basic bolt on modifications. Not only that, but in cases like SCCA World Challenge, they were often among the least modified engines in the series. This held true for the B series, F series, H series, K series and the J series.
The HPD engine is now a requirement because Honda has neutered it into a cost saving, low performing, excuse for a traditional Honda performance engine. Like Shawn Church said, the head is basically a 230HP restrictor plate,hence the head change on the racing engine. When a 2.4 liter engine can't do more than 230 HP but the equivalent 2.0 with the old head can do 260-300, and a 2.4 with the old head can do more, then there is a problem.
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CarPhreakD
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garoto628 wrote:
Mechanic wrote:
I can understand the criticism, but I think it's misplaced. Preparation of a production automobile for any professional racing series is going to require the same things depicted in Honda's HPD video. Namely, removal of the street components such as the seats, carpeting, dash, door panels, etc., and installation of a roll-cage and components that are durable enough for racing at a professional level. Doesn't matter whether it's a Honda Civic Si, a Hyundai whatever, Ford Mustang, or Chevy Camaro. No one is taking street components to the track. No one.
What sets Honda aside is the fact that HPD facilitates the process. HPD has done the development work, and -- assuming you can afford it -- it's a matter of ordering the components from a menu of choices. Honda's program is no different that those of other manufacturers and better than most: you buy a prepared engine, suspension components, brakes, seating, instruments, etc. And I can tell you from experience having run a V-dub Rabbit in Volkswagen's Bilstein Cup series in the '80s that Honda's HPD program is vastly superior to what was available to the amateur gearhead then when you spent at least a season replacing components that failed for lack of development.
Again, I understand the criticism that, for example, HPD's development involves swapping the engine for one that includes a new head, intake and exhaust components. That, however, is true for any engine developed for competition. (How much of Chevy's ZR1 motor can be found in a Camaro production V-8? Zip-point-naught.) I, for one, think it's great that HPD exists and that American Honda is committed to supporting this series.
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I agree with all you've said. I just think its marketing crap to credit the Civic Si the way they did, nothing about the Si made this process possible. A DX would've done the job
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I'm not familiar with class requirements, but that may not be accurate depending on what you're required to use from the stock car. The Civic Si has a slightly stiffer body-shell to begin with (which might not matter with that roll cage), unique wheel bearings, steering rack, brakes (I'm assuming these are changed), etc. You might not be allowed to use a K24 engine unless the chassis was originally a Civic Si either.
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Mechanic
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You're right, of course, Owequitit. It's not possible to be competitive racing a stock 2.4L Honda k-series engine in a professional series. If nothing else, the head has to go, as you and Shawn have discussed at length. But this reality isn't unique to Honda. No manufacturer has an engine, must less a street engine, that can compete in a professional series without some modifications, and most are the traditional ones -- intake and exhaust. That's regrettable, to be sure, but that's where we all are in 2012. Again, that's not unique to the Honda Motor Company.
My point was that at least HPD has some skin in the game. The company is making available to the amateur competitor fully developed options that don't require a second mortgage to be competitive.
Could things be better? Sure, but they could be a lot worse, too. A lot worse.
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superchg2
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Mechanic wrote:
You're right, of course, Owequitit. It's not possible to be competitive racing a stock 2.4L Honda k-series engine in a professional series. If nothing else, the head has to go, as you and Shawn have discussed at length. But this reality isn't unique to Honda. No manufacturer has an engine, must less a street engine, that can compete in a professional series without some modifications, and most are the traditional ones -- intake and exhaust. That's regrettable, to be sure, but that's where we all are in 2012. Again, that's not unique to the Honda Motor Company.
My point was that at least HPD has some skin in the game. The company is making available to the amateur competitor fully developed options that don't require a second mortgage to be competitive.
Could things be better? Sure, but they could be a lot worse, too. A lot worse.
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owequitit
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CarPhreakD wrote:
garoto628 wrote:
Mechanic wrote:
I can understand the criticism, but I think it's misplaced. Preparation of a production automobile for any professional racing series is going to require the same things depicted in Honda's HPD video. Namely, removal of the street components such as the seats, carpeting, dash, door panels, etc., and installation of a roll-cage and components that are durable enough for racing at a professional level. Doesn't matter whether it's a Honda Civic Si, a Hyundai whatever, Ford Mustang, or Chevy Camaro. No one is taking street components to the track. No one.
What sets Honda aside is the fact that HPD facilitates the process. HPD has done the development work, and -- assuming you can afford it -- it's a matter of ordering the components from a menu of choices. Honda's program is no different that those of other manufacturers and better than most: you buy a prepared engine, suspension components, brakes, seating, instruments, etc. And I can tell you from experience having run a V-dub Rabbit in Volkswagen's Bilstein Cup series in the '80s that Honda's HPD program is vastly superior to what was available to the amateur gearhead then when you spent at least a season replacing components that failed for lack of development.
Again, I understand the criticism that, for example, HPD's development involves swapping the engine for one that includes a new head, intake and exhaust components. That, however, is true for any engine developed for competition. (How much of Chevy's ZR1 motor can be found in a Camaro production V-8? Zip-point-naught.) I, for one, think it's great that HPD exists and that American Honda is committed to supporting this series.
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I agree with all you've said. I just think its marketing crap to credit the Civic Si the way they did, nothing about the Si made this process possible. A DX would've done the job
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I'm not familiar with class requirements, but that may not be accurate depending on what you're required to use from the stock car. The Civic Si has a slightly stiffer body-shell to begin with (which might not matter with that roll cage), unique wheel bearings, steering rack, brakes (I'm assuming these are changed), etc. You might not be allowed to use a K24 engine unless the chassis was originally a Civic Si either.
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I think their use of the stock Si was one of the reasons for the body in white that HPD released. IIRC, Compass built their cars prior to being able to essentially build a racing Si from the ground up.
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Grace141
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I think we're mixing up our racing series here. I understood the video to be about transforming a Civic Si into a professional race car such as those used by teams like Compass. Those C360R cars from years past had redlines well north of the stock K20. There are certainly differences between what one of us might choose to run in SCCA or NASA versus what a pro team runs in a regular professional series. Anyone know the redline for the current C360R Civics?
I don't have a login on HPD's parts supply site and I haven't found anything online. Isn't the HPD racing engine package for the Civic based on a K24 block? Granted, with uprated internals running 50w oil or whatever. HPD is still showing K20 Si engines as well as CTR engines as being available for sale online. Why wouldn't Compass or anyone else just swap in one of those if they're race ready? At $5500 US I bet they're both cheaper than the HPD package.
Also, other than limitations due to stroke length have there been significant differences between the lower ends of the K20 and K24 engines? Honda well publicized the fact the GS-R B18 used specific main bearings back in the day. Any differences between the K20 and the many versions of the K24?
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Grace141
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superchg2 wrote:
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Thanks for that. To this day I have friends who don't believe me when I say the Yugo was a good design built to a horrible quality level. Almost everything in the Fiat design that Zastava changed resulted in heartaches.
http://jupiterfiatpower.tripod.com/
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