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ClementZ
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Bullwinkle wrote:
Spent some time in the UK recently. Looked at Civic interior at a dealer (posted about it).
Anyway, the dealer people were asking me questions about the ILX. They seemed to think that there might be a sedan and Wagon variant of the ILX headed to the UK to "replace" the accord. It could be built in Indiana. Or in an expanded Swindon.
That would sort of fit in to the UK market. Everything is getting smaller So you could replace the upscale accord with a slightly smaller but upscale ILX. Maybe named integra?
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So a variant of the ILX, which is a variant of the US Civic is going to replace the TSX?
Aren't the Euro and US Civic of similar size?
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notyper
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Regarding sedans and their usefulness or lack thereof....
1. A 3-box sedan, for a given construction technique/materials will generally have a better unit stiffness. This can pay off in ride/handling/NVH or at least allow the use of less materials than a 2 box to achieve a standard.
2. A 3-box design will also generally be better from an aero standpoint. While you can get very slick with a 2-box by going with a teardrop and kamm shape, doing so compromises much of your utility. Thus with your boxy hatches (EP3, golf, etc) you do have some problems with aero vs a sedan.
Of course there is also styling but that's subjective so....
SC
Last edited by notyper on 07-24-2012 21:09
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Bullwinkle
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ClementZ wrote:
So a variant of the ILX, which is a variant of the US Civic is going to replace the TSX?
Aren't the Euro and US Civic of similar size?
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Yes, but I am not sure that matters. The BMW 1 series and 3 series are very close in size.
In the OLD DAYS, the Honda Integra was sold alongside the Honda Civic upon which it was based.
If you dropped an ILX 4-door sedan or Estate (maybe with Integra badging) next to a UK 4-door hatch Civic, there would be plenty of visual difference, as well as difference in level of interior appointments, etc. With the trunk and the longer hood, I am sure the ILX would appear to be much larger than the Civic.
And It would cost less than the current UK accord.
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DrWhiner
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Well we all know that (NBox) is different.... some kei cars, liek the nbox are pretty good to be honest, but I was aiming mostly at the Mira size ones. And, from my point of view the reason cars like the Mira exist is because it is due to size and space tax restriction or something like that as I am sure you know, this works well and make sense in Japan for example, but doesn't seem to work here where space is quite plenty, no real difference or advantage over car size, and public transport is poor so people have to utilise their cars more (which is why it is the largest passenger car market as WongKN said). If our Kancil (Mira clones) is design from beginning to have a trunk space for example it would be more useful for my above scenario. What I am saying is that it is not built for the market in mind. It might have a purpose or even considered useful in Japan, it does not really work well elsewhere. Same might apply for the NBox, but so far I think that is a pretty awesome vehicle.
With regard to topic, I will miss the euro Accord, sad to see it has become what it is, but I hope the replacement will be better. How are the similar size sedans doing in that market?
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Not sure if the classification is consistent amongst the two...
Passenger vehicle sales 2011
Indonesia 569k
Malaysia 535k
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A77
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surely the distinction is cars against vehicles - Indonesia has to be a bigger vehicle market overall - it has what 8 times the population, but Malaysia may have more cars - as in sedans hatches etc. Lots of people drive Kijangs and other vans in Indonesia, not so much I think in Malaysia. I have lived in both.
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DrWhiner
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A77 wrote:
surely the distinction is cars against vehicles - Indonesia has to be a bigger vehicle market overall - it has what 8 times the population, but Malaysia may have more cars - as in sedans hatches etc. Lots of people drive Kijangs and other vans in Indonesia, not so much I think in Malaysia. I have lived in both.
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Much has the world changed since then, I guess.
Total vehicle sales 2011
Indonesia 890,410
Malaysia 599,877
Vehicle sales in Indonesia rose 45% in June to a monthly record of 101,743.
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atomiclightbulb
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Bullwinkle wrote:
Spent some time in the UK recently. Looked at Civic interior at a dealer (posted about it).
Anyway, the dealer people were asking me questions about the ILX. They seemed to think that there might be a sedan and Wagon variant of the ILX headed to the UK to "replace" the accord. It could be built in Indiana. Or in an expanded Swindon.
That would sort of fit in to the UK market. Everything is getting smaller So you could replace the upscale accord with a slightly smaller but upscale ILX. Maybe named integra?
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This is what I've been saying for months. If the Accord is just too big for the EU market, it makes a whole lot of sense to use the ILX as a replacement for the current Euro Accord.
A couple benefits:
The EU Civic is based on the smaller Fit platform, so the ILX would slot above it in size.
Building the ILX in much higher volume would tend to reduce costs overall through economies of scale.
Possibility of a tourer/wagon variant. The TSX wagon is nice, but with the new RDX closing the fuel economy gap a bit, more differentiation for the small wagon is needed IMO. An ILX wagon delivering high Highway MPG of 35+ and City MPG of 25+ would be a nice option.
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FiSH-Chan
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DrWhiner wrote:
Total vehicle sales 2011
Indonesia 890,410
Malaysia 599,877
Vehicle sales in Indonesia rose 45% in June to a monthly record of 101,743. |
Well, not surprised, what a lot of my friends have been saying for a long time.... 'we' (not me, but as in most of the country) used to look down at Indonesians, but for a long time we sit idle by and too lazy and content and don't know or realized when they have catch up, and it seems that they have caught up very fast (not just in car sales alone!).
Indonesia's population is huge, I am not surprised at the number. I'm not surprised too if at one point the Indonesians will start recruiting/attracting Malaysians to work there instead of the other way around before (more and more Indonesians have started going back to find work instead of finding work here, well at least those I know of in some agricultural industry).
Sorry for going off topic.
If the ILX is replacing the Accord, what petrol engine will it use? R20 or the K24? And obviouly they have to have the diesel. And wagon.
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Bullwinkle
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
If the ILX is replacing the Accord, what petrol engine will it use? R20 or the K24? And obviouly they have to have the diesel. And wagon.
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You could use any engine that fits in a Civic in the ILX. In the US, there is an R20, K24 and a hybrid. Any Diesel that fits in the Civic would fit in the ILX.
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FiSH-Chan
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Bullwinkle wrote:
You could use any engine that fits in a Civic in the ILX. In the US, there is an R20, K24 and a hybrid. Any Diesel that fits in the Civic would fit in the ILX.
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Aah, thanks, but actually I was more asking if the engines are suitable for that market. Obviously using the Civic's engine on it would not look good, why that over the Civic then? I'm thinking they might put the old 2.2 diesel in there, but that would mean 'old engine'.
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Fan Koni
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Bullwinkle wrote:
ClementZ wrote:
So a variant of the ILX, which is a variant of the US Civic is going to replace the TSX?
Aren't the Euro and US Civic of similar size?
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Yes, but I am not sure that matters. The BMW 1 series and 3 series are very close in size.
In the OLD DAYS, the Honda Integra was sold alongside the Honda Civic upon which it was based.
If you dropped an ILX 4-door sedan or Estate (maybe with Integra badging) next to a UK 4-door hatch Civic, there would be plenty of visual difference, as well as difference in level of interior appointments, etc. With the trunk and the longer hood, I am sure the ILX would appear to be much larger than the Civic.
And It would cost less than the current UK accord.
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The 1 & 3 series are almost 20 inches apart - Hugh for European standards.
The current ILX is in between.
To position the "ILX" above the Euro civic hatch Honda would have to add new drive trains to make it interesting and definitely add estate/wagon and maybe even a coupe or GT hatch variant.
For now I can't see Honda investing much in the current ILX.
Maybe those variants of the ILX will introduce the new civic size platform in Europe & Acura earlier like end of 2013.
A GT hatch - with a clarity similar rear - would be interesting. Practical, modern appeal and upmarket enough to introduce some new drive trains and earn money in Europe.
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WongKN
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Malaysia being the largest sedan market in ASEAN, larger than Indonesia and Thailand is a statement made by Honda themselves. I suspect the classification puts certain type of cars as sedan in Indonesia but as 'non sedans' in Malaysia. For Thailand for e.g., the total sales of all types of vehicles is larger than Malaysia but a lot of them are 4-wheel drive trucks, a segment which doesn't interest Honda. Again, this statement was made by an ex-Honda employee.
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danielgr
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
Bullwinkle wrote:
Spent some time in the UK recently. Looked at Civic interior at a dealer (posted about it).
Anyway, the dealer people were asking me questions about the ILX. They seemed to think that there might be a sedan and Wagon variant of the ILX headed to the UK to "replace" the accord. It could be built in Indiana. Or in an expanded Swindon.
That would sort of fit in to the UK market. Everything is getting smaller So you could replace the upscale accord with a slightly smaller but upscale ILX. Maybe named integra?
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This is what I've been saying for months. If the Accord is just too big for the EU market, it makes a whole lot of sense to use the ILX as a replacement for the current Euro Accord.
A couple benefits:
The EU Civic is based on the smaller Fit platform, so the ILX would slot above it in size.
Building the ILX in much higher volume would tend to reduce costs overall through economies of scale.
Possibility of a tourer/wagon variant. The TSX wagon is nice, but with the new RDX closing the fuel economy gap a bit, more differentiation for the small wagon is needed IMO. An ILX wagon delivering high Highway MPG of 35+ and City MPG of 25+ would be a nice option.
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- Where the Accord is failing the ILX would only fail more miserably. The market for sedans in Europe may be declining, but that for cheaper sedans is nearly inexistent nowadays. If there is a market for sedans that is going upscale, which is what all European makers (including mainstream) have been doing for a while. To me the ILX has potential in the US by offering a cheaper entry point to the Acura line-up, but imho that's not what European sedan buyers are thriving for.
- If that was to happen I would expect Honda to name it "Accord" anyway. There is no way Honda would replace a sedan with another sedan and introduce a brand new name for it. Sure Honda has never been big in Europe, but their Accord brand is still well recognized among Honda buyers, and has sold well for nearly a decade. So technically, there wouldn't be news about "Honda to axe the Accord in the UK".
- If the ILX was meant to "replace the Euro Accord", it would have also replaced the TSX and Japanese Accord; that obviously didn't happen.
- Adding volume to the ILX might sound like a good idea, but the cost of personalizing it to European standards/tastes may be pointless for the few they'd sell. I would expect the ILX to expand in growing markets following US tastes, such as China, not in struggling Europe with completely different priorities.
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danielgr
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Bullwinkle wrote:
You could use any engine that fits in a Civic in the ILX. In the US, there is an R20, K24 and a hybrid. Any Diesel that fits in the Civic would fit in the ILX.
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- R20
- K24
- 2.2 diesel
That'd be promtly replaced by:
- R20 or 1.8L ED (if ready)
- 2.4L ED (introduced this fall in the US Accord), and
- 1.7L diesel ED (introduced this fall in the Euro Civic).
If it were to happen...
PS: That engine line-up gave me another powerful reason why that is not going to happen:
- There is no way Honda could justify bringing diesel production to the US in the near term,
- There is no way Honda would bring production of a car such as the ILX to Europe
and no sedan can be sold in Europe without diesel powertrains, so no ILX for Europe. The introduction of the extremely difficult to manufacture diesel on the 7th gen Accord may actually have been one of the reason for its production to move to Japan. Indeed, up to that point the Swindon UK plant had been building both the 5th and 6th gens.
Last edited by danielgr on 07-26-2012 03:09
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longhorn
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Again, the rumor that the TSX is going away makes more sense. However, if the rumor Daniel is speaking of about of a Clarity designed replacement, it could be a replacement for the TSX nameplate. Something thats different (ala four door coupe like vehicle) so it doesn't matter if its similar in size to the TL.
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Terencemunro
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I owned every single generation of Euro Accords since 1991. The Accord Tourer im driving today is by far the best Honda one can have here in Europe. In comparison to my friends Audis an BMW I and also my friend think the Accord is on par.
Actually i can not understand why this excellent car sales so badly.
I think Honda should massively invest in marketing.
You cant sell even the best cars if the people dont know that it exists.
When i browse the different German car magazins, i very rarely can see a review or test. And if there is a comparsion vs a German car, Honda always looses.
At least i can say i drive an exotic car in Switzerland. There are by far more Porsches and eve Ferraris than newer Accords on the streets
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DrWhiner
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Eh, It makes more sense if Malaysia is the largest "sedan" market in ASEAN, not about passenger cars.
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danielgr
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Well we all know that (NBox) is different.... some kei cars, liek the nbox are pretty good to be honest, but I was aiming mostly at the Mira size ones. And, from my point of view the reason cars like the Mira exist is because it is due to size and space tax restriction or something like that as I am sure you know, this works well and make sense in Japan for example, but doesn't seem to work here where space is quite plenty, no real difference or advantage over car size, and public transport is poor so people have to utilise their cars more (which is why it is the largest passenger car market as WongKN said). If our Kancil (Mira clones) is design from beginning to have a trunk space for example it would be more useful for my above scenario. What I am saying is that it is not built for the market in mind. It might have a purpose or even considered useful in Japan, it does not really work well elsewhere. Same might apply for the NBox, but so far I think that is a pretty awesome vehicle.
[...] |
The point of this conversation was that sedans offer the less utility possible of any car shape for a given size-price, and that imho is the reason why in places like Europe and Japan they are getting phased out. The only thing at which sedans excel is in the image department, as there is no really a shape that inspires wealth and elegance without being extravagant better than a sedan. That is why German luxury makers keep selling them like hotcakes, and why in a country like Japan where people showing off too much aren't really well seen sedans still reign at the top of the automobile food chain. You'd see few large luxury SUVs around here, and most sports cars remain well hidden in parking lots without really going much for a ride.
Yet that, the "image market", is certainly not a game at which Honda has many chances around here. People buying image do not care about getting a better product, nor about getting more for their money, and Honda can't sell a better image than Toyota in Japan or the Germans abroad. People buying sedans around here get either a Toyota/Lexus (the vast majority of them being "Crowns") or a BMW/Benz.
But I'm going off-topic. The point is that in a good part of western Europe and Japan, automobiles are losing their "image" appeal, and becoming more and more simple tools. Sure it's an expensive tool, and sure people like to look good, but around here what used to be the principal criteria is simply losing ground against utility...
PS: I think you have some kind of trauma with old Miras, but really, all the best-selling kei-cars are plenty useful cars, mostly minivan-like with sliding doors like the N-Box (which was the last entry to a crowded segment), but even a regular all-time favorite like the Life/Mira are incredibly useful little things (unrivaled for their size), not to mention all the pick-up trucks and mini-trucks that are used for most local business. As I said, there is little if any car in the world that can match the utility of JP's kei-cars, yet obviously most people would rather trade some of it for more comfort and power.
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Terencemunro
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I owned every single generation of Euro Accords since 1991. The Accord Tourer im driving today is by far the best Honda one can have here in Europe. In comparison to my friends Audis an BMW I and also my friend think the Accord is on par.
Actually i can not understand why this excellent car sales so badly.
I think Honda should massively invest in marketing.
You cant sell even the best cars if the people dont know that it exists.
When i browse the different German car magazins, i very rarely can see a review or test. And if there is a comparsion vs a German car, Honda always looses.
At least i can say i drive an exotic car in Switzerland. There are by far more Porsches and eve Ferraris than newer Accords on the streets
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Nick GravesX
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Terencemunro wrote:
I owned every single generation of Euro Accords since 1991. The Accord Tourer im driving today is by far the best Honda one can have here in Europe. In comparison to my friends Audis an BMW I and also my friend think the Accord is on par.
Actually i can not understand why this excellent car sales so badly.
I think Honda should massively invest in marketing.
You cant sell even the best cars if the people dont know that it exists.
When i browse the different German car magazins, i very rarely can see a review or test. And if there is a comparsion vs a German car, Honda always looses.
At least i can say i drive an exotic car in Switzerland. There are by far more Porsches and eve Ferraris than newer Accords on the streets
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You got the same shit with Preludes, too; it's no different in the UK. The press are utterly in awe/totally the bitches of the German manufacturers.
What is strange then, is the amount of die-hard Accord fans who have one after the other just like you! It's a remarkably loyal ownership.
The rationale seems to go; the Accord only goes up to 2.2D and is at least equal if not better than the holy 3er 2.0D. But the 3er was specced with £10K worth of options, so the press thinks it's a nicer car.
But then the 3er goes up to 3.0D, which is far better than the Accord, which doesn't. Thus even the poverty spec 3er must be better than the poverty-spec Accord. It's illogical nonsense, plus they rarely test on a level playing field.
Partly, it's Honda didn't know how to play the game, partly they'd be on a hiding to nothing if they tried to halo up their cars - out of prejudice.
Might as well give up & sell Priuses instead.
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danielgr
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Terencemunro wrote:
I owned every single generation of Euro Accords since 1991. The Accord Tourer im driving today is by far the best Honda one can have here in Europe. In comparison to my friends Audis an BMW I and also my friend think the Accord is on par.
Actually i can not understand why this excellent car sales so badly.
I think Honda should massively invest in marketing.
You cant sell even the best cars if the people dont know that it exists.
When i browse the different German car magazins, i very rarely can see a review or test. And if there is a comparsion vs a German car, Honda always looses.
At least i can say i drive an exotic car in Switzerland. There are by far more Porsches and eve Ferraris than newer Accords on the streets
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• its also pretty much telling that after owning every Accord since 1991 (I.e. Mostly sedans) your latest one came in wagon form, which is exactly what I was talking about. Actually, I have never seen an 8th Gen sedan in Japan, every single one of the few I've spotted since launch were Tourer models, and the only 7th Gen sedans I've seen were all EuroR models.
• you also have to keep in mind that there is only that much money a company can spend in local marketing in a region where it controls less than 2% of the market, specially when considering we aren't talking about the world 's largest maker (that has the resources to push its way forward) but one of the smallest.
• finally, it's only natural that the local press protects the local industry; if you want Honda to have a chance of winning comparos in Europe you'll need to go to either the UK or Turkey.
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danielgr
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longhorn wrote:
Again, the rumor that the TSX is going away makes more sense. However, if the rumor Daniel is speaking of about of a Clarity designed replacement, it could be a replacement for the TSX nameplate. Something thats different (ala four door coupe like vehicle) so it doesn't matter if its similar in size to the TL.
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That is indeed what I was thinking about (as a possibility, wonder how plausible...)
That said, I wonder also if the US Accord with the hybrid and PHEV versions will keep selling in Japan as the Inspire or not. For sure for Japan right now it makes little sense to keep 3 sedans (legend, inspire, accord) selling less than 500 units / year. They've already axed the civic, now it'd make sense to axe either the Inspire or the Accord, and based on everything we've heard it seems the later is going to lose (also because the US PHEV and Hybrid are likely to be made in Japan for a while). But what will happen with the Accord nameplate? Will they drop the Inspire name instead? Or will they introduce a clarity-based "accord"?
Exciting times...
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sadlerau
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danielgr wrote:
longhorn wrote:
Again, the rumor that the TSX is going away makes more sense. However, if the rumor Daniel is speaking of about of a Clarity designed replacement, it could be a replacement for the TSX nameplate. Something thats different (ala four door coupe like vehicle) so it doesn't matter if its similar in size to the TL.
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That is indeed what I was thinking about (as a possibility, wonder how plausible...)
That said, I wonder also if the US Accord with the hybrid and PHEV versions will keep selling in Japan as the Inspire or not. For sure for Japan right now it makes little sense to keep 3 sedans (legend, inspire, accord) selling less than 500 units / year. They've already axed the civic, now it'd make sense to axe either the Inspire or the Accord, and based on everything we've heard it seems the later is going to lose (also because the US PHEV and Hybrid are likely to be made in Japan for a while). But what will happen with the Accord nameplate? Will they drop the Inspire name instead? Or will they introduce a clarity-based "accord"?
Exciting times...
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I know the Australian market is miniscule in comparison to most markets, but I wonder what will happen to Accord sales here as well? The Accord [USA style] and Euro Accord [TSX] sell almost evenly in numbers, with perhaps the Euro Accord slightly ahead overall. Will the new model sell as well as these two models combined, as I feel they sell to different types of buyers.
On the wagon front, I don't think it has been sold in Australia since the early 1990s. But what would sell here would be the MDX and RDX. Australia really is an SUV market, and I feel that both these models would sell well. Perhaps, if they drop the price of the CRV [which they can do if one compares pricing with the Accord and Civic prices, then the can introduce the RDX to sell to the Accord crowd, with the MDX above that for those who want something bigger. Now that the Aus$ is in parity with the US$ the pricing might even work.
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FiSH-Chan
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danielgr wrote:
PS: I think you have some kind of trauma with old Miras, but really, all the best-selling kei-cars are plenty useful cars, mostly minivan-like with sliding doors like the N-Box (which was the last entry to a crowded segment), but even a regular all-time favorite like the Life/Mira are incredibly useful little things (unrivaled for their size), not to mention all the pick-up trucks and mini-trucks that are used for most local business. As I said, there is little if any car in the world that can match the utility of JP's kei-cars, yet obviously most people would rather trade some of it for more comfort and power. |
Haha, probably right. They get in the way a lot, are among the slowest cars on the roads, their drivers are among the worse parking for their size (either them, or the SUV / trucks), and carry the least load (passengers or whatever) for the buyer's intended purpose, in my town. And that is my opinion... but many others share this opinion with me.
Just how do you find the Mira useful, if you put yourself in our shoes, that you are taking 3-4 passengers from the airport WITH their luggage / some full size suitcases + whatever.. apart from putting it on the roof (if you already install the rood rake.. ) you simply CAN'T. You need trunk space for those things.
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danielgr
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
[...]
Just how do you find the Mira useful, if you put yourself in our shoes, that you are taking 3-4 passengers from the airport WITH their luggage / some full size suitcases + whatever.. apart from putting it on the roof (if you already install the rood rake.. ) you simply CAN'T. You need trunk space for those things.
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Again, I'm discussing car shapes, not car sizes.
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FiSH-Chan
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danielgr wrote:
Maybe the problem is my English... I don't know... but it's pretty simple: if you feel the Mira is useless, try to imagine it in sedan form with the same exterior dimensions, now, that'd be useless.
Again, I'm discussing car shapes, not car sizes.
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Huh? I think it may be your English. Or mine. But I will take any car that I can stuff lots of things into places that are not on top of my passengers any day as my daily driving car.
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FiSH-Chan
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.... not that I wouldn't take a hatch or other form.. I will not mind something like a EG6 or S2000 or CRZ...... but that only comes as a second car after having a sedan, and I wouldn't take the EG6 or hatch or CRZ to take passengers from airports.
Actually, a minivan would be even more useful for the airport, but the sedan will be adequate unless I need to bring 100000 passengers + their luggage
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Restless
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danielgr wrote:
I think every Honda buyer in Europe pretty much agree with you. That said:
• you also have to keep in mind that there is only that much money a company can spend in local marketing in a region where it controls less than 2% of the market, specially when considering we aren't talking about the world 's largest maker (that has the resources to push its way forward) but one of the smallest.
• finally, it's only natural that the local press protects the local industry; if you want Honda to have a chance of winning comparos in Europe you'll need to go to either the UK or Turkey.
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German D-class cars are The Standart. Accord is/feels different in some places. And is not always better. Tourer - eneormous overhangs, very low, add the virtual lack of engine choice. Add lack of "image".
All Hondas have VERY limited choice of "extras" - you have predefined packages and thats it. There is a reason why Golf is best-selling "golf-class" car, and >30% of Golfs sold in Germany are base package/engine (80-100ps ). No such choice for Accord/Civic/Jazz
Add lack of image. Add what they sell today is not what made fan-base in 90s.
Not enough money for marketing? But if you don't even TRY, how one can expect to gain market share?!
Add design.
There is NO Honda design. Jazz is way different than Civic, Civic from Accord, Accord from CR-V, while Legend was identical with Accord, CR-V not like HR-V, FR-V looked like.... MB B-class?
How a company can sell so differently designed cars and expect to get better image? I'm not asking for Audi-like style, but going Honda-way is even worse IMO.
Last edited by danielgr on 07-27-2012 05:47
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Nick GravesX
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That is a good summary of Honda's issues over here. It's as much poor product-planning as marketing that they don't get them quite right.
Not only is it not having the 1.6D, but even things like not installing DAB radios as standard, or various other popular choices, is a problem.
Combine that with the aforementioned bias (the UK press is even more German-prestige-car-mad than the german press!) and they don't stand much of a chance.
Although it's that premium thing that I think is a massive problem. The Accord tourer is very similar to the (better optioned) Opel Insignia & that hardly sells, either. It's getting increasingly difficult for the mid-market brands to survive and Honda lost its semi-premium appeal some time back.
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A77
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If I remember rightly I don't have the magazine to hand, Top Gear Magazine in its car database pages describes the Accord as a secret A4 assassin. Which sounds like pretty strong praise to me. But the key word is secret. People just don't even consider it. Maybe its price, or features I have no idea. But where there's nothing to particularly distinguish it, in a market so anti-sedan it is very hard to succeed.
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