bigblue
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I have a vague feeling that some of the most celebrated hot-hatches use a non independent set-up, maybe the Peugeot 205 GTi, RenaultSport Clios ? Can't remember for sure at the moment, will have to look it up. Maybe someone can teach us all about suspension design :-) Who wrote this rubbish ? :-) A torsion beam can be considered to be semi-independent, and the 205 etc didn't use one anyway.
"... the Golf. These cars used a new idea, arear suspension in which Mini-like trailing arms were joined by a crossbeam to make an H-shape. The whole lot was mounted on rubber blocks and the torsion beam was born.
It could be tuned to work very well, especially if the mountings were designed - as in the Mk2 Golf onwards - to allow some understeer-killing passive rear steer. The Mk1 didn't have this, but was still able to get plenty of power cleanly to the road and make the 110bhp, 1.6-litre Golf GTi of 1976 the first of a new level of rapid hatchback.
Other rapid hatches followed, all with national rear suspension chracteristics. If German, a torsion beam. If Italian, McPherson struts. If French, pure trailing arms like a Mini, often thought to give the most positive lateral location and therefore the quickest, crispest sterring response. It's part of the reason why the Peugeot 205 GTi and the Renault 5 GT Turbo were so much more fun to drive than their contemporaries - and why weight transfer to the outside rear wheel on lift-off could often have such an immediate effect. The Volkswagen approach, by contrast, was gentler and more progressive; you took your pick."
(evo 095, September 2006).
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Nick GravesX
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Indeed true.
The only problem is those car weighed well under 1,000Kg & a simpler suspension was adequate for the time.
Same way none of them required DW at the front; a McP strut was perfectly acceptable.
Remember, contemparaneous Civics had McP stuts & Torsion Bar front ends & a beam axle with rather inconsistent location.
Of course, the EG brought a new level pf sophistication, which has now spread to other EU manucaturers; Alfa Romeo uses a similar DW and the Ford Control Blade was not far short of copying...
Whether Honda CAN get rid of that bunny hop ride, remains to be seen...
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bigblue
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Rear-end picture :
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bigblue
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Oops, let's try again
You can also find it at [ car magazine ].
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superchg
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bigblue wrote:
Rear-end picture :
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danielgr
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bigblue wrote:
Oops, let's try again
You can also find it at [ car magazine ].
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PS: That comes frmo an official and public Honda PR, so you don't need to cite any car mag. Here is the whole release from Honda (link).
Interestingly they also mention an MMC for the Insight; wonder if that's the same we got in JP (& believe Malaysia) or if it's something else.
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Midi_Amp
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danielgr wrote:
bigblue wrote:
Oops, let's try again
You can also find it at [ car magazine ].
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PS: That comes frmo an official and public Honda PR, so you don't need to cite any car mag. Here is the whole release from Honda (link).
Interestingly they also mention an MMC for the Insight; wonder if that's the same we got in JP (& believe Malaysia) or if it's something else.
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:O
Looks good! There's a dash of expensiveness and quality in that one picture alone. The edges are pronounced and the evolutionary design just works, period. There's that thick current generation silhouette, but the new lines makes it sexay.
But... God please don't let this be Crosstour part deux...
Relax Daniel, Honda of Japan will bound to sell the Civic Euro, if not in Type-R guise, in Type-S, definitely not type-2 diabetes I will get for eating so much ice cream to quell my broken heart knowing that the Civic Euro will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever x infinity comes to my country.
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NealX
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Looks great! Hopefully they don't ruin it with an incorrect wheels size and design..!
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sadlerau
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Daniel I don't share your enthusiasm for the Euro Civic's look. On the road the current model looks "dumpy", like an attractive woman who is carrying a few too many kilos. It does not have a svelte profile, and from the proportions evident on the camo cars it is not going to get significantly better. Hope I'm wrong.........
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bigblue
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superchg : yeah, I guess it was inevitable that something like that would get posted when I said "rear-end picture" :-)
danielgr : yep I saw it at Car Magazine first, and then found the picture over on some honda eu site, so the pic is linked to the honda site, but I thought I'd put the magazine link in too in case the picture ever gets moved ... but your link is better !
sadlerau : I've always liked the current Civic, it has a nice solid but not heavy look, well proportioned with a nice arrow shaped front and some funky rear lights (like the characterful little sticky-out bits on them too). Looks good in normal-ish spec (rather than just top spec), which is unusual. We'll have to see what the whole car looks like before I'm sure about the new one but I hope it doesn't end up being less "interesting" than the old one.
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danielgr
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sadlerau wrote:
Daniel I don't share your enthusiasm for the Euro Civic's look. On the road the current model looks "dumpy", like an attractive woman who is carrying a few too many kilos. It does not have a svelte profile, and from the proportions evident on the camo cars it is not going to get significantly better. Hope I'm wrong.........
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Looks are subjective sadlerau...
Personally, I've always loved the overall design of the car (inside/out). There are some points which:
- I never liked much (the rear, too bloated and with too much glassy plastic)
- I grew not to like much (the lateral profile of the 5D in production trim: the small rear windows and tiny rear doors kind of make the design a bit bloated with standard production pannel gaps and tire package).
But overall, for a 6 year old design, it's an amazing one for what it is (a compact hatch). Add to that the fact that it has interior roominess to rival any compact minivan / SUV and...
So far this one seems to be solving one of my design weak points (the rear), so the final result may not follow, but "so far so good" as far as my personal tastes are concerned.
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sadlerau
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danielgr wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Daniel I don't share your enthusiasm for the Euro Civic's look. On the road the current model looks "dumpy", like an attractive woman who is carrying a few too many kilos. It does not have a svelte profile, and from the proportions evident on the camo cars it is not going to get significantly better. Hope I'm wrong.........
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Looks are subjective sadlerau...
Personally, I've always loved the overall design of the car (inside/out). There are some points which:
- I never liked much (the rear, too bloated and with too much glassy plastic)
- I grew not to like much (the lateral profile of the 5D in production trim: the small rear windows and tiny rear doors kind of make the design a bit bloated with standard production pannel gaps and tire package).
But overall, for a 6 year old design, it's an amazing one for what it is (a compact hatch). Add to that the fact that it has interior roominess to rival any compact minivan / SUV and...
So far this one seems to be solving one of my design weak points (the rear), so the final result may not follow, but "so far so good" as far as my personal tastes are concerned.
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I must confess that I've only ever sat in the 3 door, and never in any of the car's competition. But if, as you say, it has significantly more interior room than the opposition then the design language is certainly worth the minor visual drawbacks.
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Jesse
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The current Euro Civic is gorgeous. I've always loved it ever since it came out and I hope its successor will not take a step backwards design-wise.
My main concern of this new-gen is found in the picture. I despise bulbous/protruding head/rear lights (ie US Accord sedan & coupe). I do hope the new Euro Civic's rearlights protrude because it is part of the design and not just an afterthought. We'll see.
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blackstripe77
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The current Euro Civic has angles everywhere - it was futuristic the day it was released, and still looks the part now. Drop one of them into any place that hasn't experienced the Euro Civic and they'd never know how old the design was.
Judging by the teaser, I'm expecting a more svelte, slightly grown-up design of the current gen. The protruding tail lights probably have something to do with aerodynamics, though so far it doesn't look bad at all.
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bigblue
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"Frankfurt Show - Honda Civic" [ autocar ]
That's an adventurous front end, insn't it ?
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bigblue
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And rear ...
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sadlerau
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Different. I'm not a fan of the squared off corners, which I presume are there for aero.
Overall I like no less than the outgoing model [of which I was not a fan]. Perhaps a tad more main-stream, and somehow it reminds me of Peugeot styling - which in my opinion is a good thing.
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bigblue
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Looks a step back from the last model in appearance to me. I'll await seeing the first one on-road to make a final judgement.
[ Car ] says and a Type R is also on its way. which is the first I've heard of that - I was worried there'd be no sports version. No details though.
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bigblue
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Odd stuff at [ evo ].
while a new Type-R hot hatchback looks unlikely, he’s desperate to see a revival of the Japanese firm’s most iconic badge.
A performance version of the new Honda Civic (the regular version of which is already described as sporty) looks almost certain, though it will take a different path to its predecessors and as such, we expect it to eschew the Type-R branding.
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P54
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Seems to me that since Honda is going to field Type R in racing next year they would also have a street going version of that car. Honda is also going to race in BTTC next year with the new Civic. Maybe both the ARC and BTTC cars will be modified regular Civics, however since they sell SI in USA the possibility for a Type R elsewhere is likely since Honda spend money on racing them.
Civic Type R:
“I’m so happy for the team that we could get another podium finish and also win the 2011 Australian Rally Manufacturer’s Championship for Honda Australia. It’s a great reward for supporting our team and the championship this year.
“It’s a really good omen that we now have such good pace and I can’t wait until the championship goes two-wheel drive next year. I reckon I’ve now done my front-wheel drive apprenticeship and I’m ready to start winning,” Evans said.
Evans’ stage times were so strong, if he’d been competing in the WRC field he would have found himself in 12th outright and over fifteen minutes ahead of the next two-wheel drive competitor.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2011/09/12/006641-third-time-charm-for-honda-coffs-coast.html
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FiSH-Chan
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bigblue wrote:
"Frankfurt Show - Honda Civic" [ autocar ]
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Looks better in this color than white.
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bigblue
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At [ autocar ]
New Honda Civic chief engineer Mitsuru Kariya has confirmed to Autocar a faster ‘Type R style’ car is under development.
Honda initially ruled out building a Type R style version of its new Civic, because the company felt it didn’t meet with its mass-market, environmentally led credentials.
However, following President Takanobu Ito's push to renew Honda's sporting credentials – Read Autocar's separate story on the new NSX here – a more hardcore Civic will now be sold. However, it may not carry the Type R name.
“It [the performance version] is already under discussion,” said Kariya. “We know Type R was a big success, especially in the UK market, and we are now looking for a car to be developed in that direction. Whether it will be called Type R is not certain though.”
See pictures of the Honda Civic Type R
The widely revered Civic Type R brand was a huge hit in the UK blending the characteristics of Honda’s genre-defining VTEC engine with sophisticated independent suspension to create an acclaimed hot hatch.
At one point the Type R variant accounted for 15 per cent of Honda’s total Civic sales.
(Of course the last Type-R had a torsion beam rear suspension unlike the one before that).
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Nick GravesX
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bigblue wrote:
At [ autocar ]
New Honda Civic chief engineer Mitsuru Kariya has confirmed to Autocar a faster ‘Type R style’ car is under development.
Honda initially ruled out building a Type R style version of its new Civic, because the company felt it didn’t meet with its mass-market, environmentally led credentials.
However, following President Takanobu Ito's push to renew Honda's sporting credentials – Read Autocar's separate story on the new NSX here – a more hardcore Civic will now be sold. However, it may not carry the Type R name.
“It [the performance version] is already under discussion,” said Kariya. “We know Type R was a big success, especially in the UK market, and we are now looking for a car to be developed in that direction. Whether it will be called Type R is not certain though.”
See pictures of the Honda Civic Type R
The widely revered Civic Type R brand was a huge hit in the UK blending the characteristics of Honda’s genre-defining VTEC engine with sophisticated independent suspension to create an acclaimed hot hatch.
At one point the Type R variant accounted for 15 per cent of Honda’s total Civic sales.
(Of course the last Type-R had a torsion beam rear suspension unlike the one before that).
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It's a good sign; Ito's realised that serious damage has been done to the brand by this almost puritan-religious pursuit of CO2-bollocks and bets are now being hedged.
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JeffX
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Nick Graves wrote:
bigblue wrote:
At [ autocar ]
New Honda Civic chief engineer Mitsuru Kariya has confirmed to Autocar a faster ‘Type R style’ car is under development.
Honda initially ruled out building a Type R style version of its new Civic, because the company felt it didn’t meet with its mass-market, environmentally led credentials.
However, following President Takanobu Ito's push to renew Honda's sporting credentials – Read Autocar's separate story on the new NSX here – a more hardcore Civic will now be sold. However, it may not carry the Type R name.
“It [the performance version] is already under discussion,” said Kariya. “We know Type R was a big success, especially in the UK market, and we are now looking for a car to be developed in that direction. Whether it will be called Type R is not certain though.”
See pictures of the Honda Civic Type R
The widely revered Civic Type R brand was a huge hit in the UK blending the characteristics of Honda’s genre-defining VTEC engine with sophisticated independent suspension to create an acclaimed hot hatch.
At one point the Type R variant accounted for 15 per cent of Honda’s total Civic sales.
(Of course the last Type-R had a torsion beam rear suspension unlike the one before that).
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It's a good sign; Ito's realised that serious damage has been done to the brand by this almost puritan-religious pursuit of CO2-bollocks and bets are now being hedged.
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I'm sorry, but this doesn't sit well with me AT ALL. He went whole hog with this shit 2 years ago, crapping all over the people (enthusiasts) who helped build the brand (at least in the USA) and I told anybody who would listen at Honda that this approach would be very damaging to the brand. I hate to be that guy that says "I told you so!", and I may still be wrong, but right now I'm getting the very uncomfortable feeling that I was in fact correct. I am sure my tirades have been documented here over the past two years. The damage is likely reversible but it could take years of scrambling to right the ship and regain credibility.
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danielgr
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Jeff wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
bigblue wrote:
At [ autocar ]
New Honda Civic chief engineer Mitsuru Kariya has confirmed to Autocar a faster ‘Type R style’ car is under development.
Honda initially ruled out building a Type R style version of its new Civic, because the company felt it didn’t meet with its mass-market, environmentally led credentials.
However, following President Takanobu Ito's push to renew Honda's sporting credentials – Read Autocar's separate story on the new NSX here – a more hardcore Civic will now be sold. However, it may not carry the Type R name.
“It [the performance version] is already under discussion,” said Kariya. “We know Type R was a big success, especially in the UK market, and we are now looking for a car to be developed in that direction. Whether it will be called Type R is not certain though.”
See pictures of the Honda Civic Type R
The widely revered Civic Type R brand was a huge hit in the UK blending the characteristics of Honda’s genre-defining VTEC engine with sophisticated independent suspension to create an acclaimed hot hatch.
At one point the Type R variant accounted for 15 per cent of Honda’s total Civic sales.
(Of course the last Type-R had a torsion beam rear suspension unlike the one before that).
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It's a good sign; Ito's realised that serious damage has been done to the brand by this almost puritan-religious pursuit of CO2-bollocks and bets are now being hedged.
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I'm sorry, but this doesn't sit well with me AT ALL. He went whole hog with this shit 2 years ago, crapping all over the people (enthusiasts) who helped build the brand (at least in the USA) and I told anybody who would listen at Honda that this approach would be very damaging to the brand. I hate to be that guy that says "I told you so!", and I may still be wrong, but right now I'm getting the very uncomfortable feeling that I was in fact correct. I am sure my tirades have been documented here over the past two years. The damage is likely reversible but it could take years of scrambling to right the ship and regain credibility.
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I'm afraid Ito has never said he would not develop "performance" cars anymore, and you can listen again to the 1h interview you got with him in Tokyo AutoShow if you want Jeff, or any other quote for that matter.
What Ito has said once and again is that "performance" is not "enough" anymore, and that whatever sport(y) cars they may bring in the future will need to rise its environmental credentials higher. Now notice that:
- he says "in that direction"
- and it "may not carry the TypeR name"
That's because whatever that "higher performance Civic is", it won't be "a TypeR", and it will need to rise the environmental bar. Just wait... and I'll be the one to say "I told you so".
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P54
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danielgr wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
bigblue wrote:
At [ autocar ]
New Honda Civic chief engineer Mitsuru Kariya has confirmed to Autocar a faster ‘Type R style’ car is under development.
Honda initially ruled out building a Type R style version of its new Civic, because the company felt it didn’t meet with its mass-market, environmentally led credentials.
However, following President Takanobu Ito's push to renew Honda's sporting credentials – Read Autocar's separate story on the new NSX here – a more hardcore Civic will now be sold. However, it may not carry the Type R name.
“It [the performance version] is already under discussion,” said Kariya. “We know Type R was a big success, especially in the UK market, and we are now looking for a car to be developed in that direction. Whether it will be called Type R is not certain though.”
See pictures of the Honda Civic Type R
The widely revered Civic Type R brand was a huge hit in the UK blending the characteristics of Honda’s genre-defining VTEC engine with sophisticated independent suspension to create an acclaimed hot hatch.
At one point the Type R variant accounted for 15 per cent of Honda’s total Civic sales.
(Of course the last Type-R had a torsion beam rear suspension unlike the one before that).
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It's a good sign; Ito's realised that serious damage has been done to the brand by this almost puritan-religious pursuit of CO2-bollocks and bets are now being hedged.
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I'm sorry, but this doesn't sit well with me AT ALL. He went whole hog with this shit 2 years ago, crapping all over the people (enthusiasts) who helped build the brand (at least in the USA) and I told anybody who would listen at Honda that this approach would be very damaging to the brand. I hate to be that guy that says "I told you so!", and I may still be wrong, but right now I'm getting the very uncomfortable feeling that I was in fact correct. I am sure my tirades have been documented here over the past two years. The damage is likely reversible but it could take years of scrambling to right the ship and regain credibility.
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I'm afraid Ito has never said he would not develop "performance" cars anymore, and you can listen again to the 1h interview you got with him in Tokyo AutoShow if you want Jeff, or any other quote for that matter.
What Ito has said once and again is that "performance" is not "enough" anymore, and that whatever sport(y) cars they may bring in the future will need to rise its environmental credentials higher. Now notice that:
- he says "in that direction"
- and it "may not carry the TypeR name"
That's because whatever that "higher performance Civic is", it won't be "a TypeR", and it will need to rise the environmental bar. Just wait... and I'll be the one to say "I told you so".
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"Vision". It's about seeing farther than the common man, or your own interests only. Ito got that vision. Just wait and see. You have seen nothing yet.
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sennaFAN
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It seems to me that Honda currently are hell bent on making customers come to their way of thinking.
I think it would be another terrible shame to drop the Type R model, not only for the car that it maybe, but for the fact that it is an aspirational model, a leader, something young lads scan mags and hang pictures from their walls.
Honda have built up a very strong following from 'enthusiasts' that have virtually revered them for their engineering excellence, their 'over engineering' and their ability to make beautifully mechanical gearboxes and engines capable of outrageous performance from tiny capacities giving them giant killing reputations.
I remember launches of various VTi models with 100+ hp per litre without turbo assistance, Preludes, ITRs, NSX, S2000 etc etc.
Yet I have found the gradual dumming down of Hondas spirit truly sad.
Imagine if they tried to make another 'Impossible Dream' advert now..... how sad it would look.
I fully appreciate Honda HAVE to take on board CO2, they have to embrace hybrid technologies and alternative fuels. But for gods sakes dont lose your soul in the process.
LJK Setright, bless him, would turn in his grave at some of the product Honda have put onto the market. The Insight in launch guise was horribly misjudged and would have been expected from a much lesser company given its shocking quality and refinement, or lack of it.
I am sorry danielgr but having owned a CRZ GT I have to say that it has no right being called sporty in any way that I know of.
Its not too late, but please give the people that care, and that is all of us here. We rarely agree, but we all have one thing in common and that it why we are here.
But take us for granted and you lose the heart of your customer base, you lose the enthusiasts that preach the gospel according to Honda wherever they go.
Currently I admire Hondas product, but I dont love them.
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bigblue
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A little leaflet on the new model (pdf format) at [ honda.co.uk ].
I'm a bit more comfortable with the shape now, but still want to see a real one. The wheelarch bits look a bit odd in side profile but better on a [ 3D spin ] of the car. It's certainly interesting, though not entirely sure if interesting-good or interesting-odd.
Hilarious how the reaction of everyone in the US on ToV etc seems to be rage because "the new euro Civic is much better than the US Civic". And the reaction in the UK seems to be, hmmm that looks a bit odd, what have they done to it ? No doubt it'd be the other way around if the models were each launched in the other market. Also no idea how all the purists who say that "Honda is dumbing-down their cars" are now busy discussing the finer points of plastic grain-patterns rather than saying "great, they made a few intelligent choices on material costs, and kept the independent rear-suspension, as an engineering-led company should". Anyway, I seem to have digressed :-)
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bigblue
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Oh, you can also look at the [ youtube channel ] if you're interested, it contains a more controlable rotatable view of the car. Those wheelarches are unusual ! They flow into the bodywork at front and rear and pretty much create corners. Style-led or aero-led ?
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bigblue
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[ autocar ] says a Type-R is coming in 2013, and that it will be normally aspirated, there might be another Type-R model added to the range, but no special platform for a new S2000 (for example). The Civic will be a Honda rather than Mugen developed car.
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