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S600=Dream
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Kudos to all for a decent thread with good conversation and no scything putdowns!
lol
Those that have driven the thing, what did you guys think of the steering on the 86?
Steering on modern cars is all just so tragic, and I'm always disappointed in how things feel in your hands these days.
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notyper
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I thought the steering was very nice. Not decade old Porsche 911 or Boxster nice, but certainly on par with pre-novacaine BMWs. I'd rate the steering, in terms of feel, a little higher than my S2000.
SC
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Nick GravesX
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That's a good yardstick.
And some reports rate the 8 6's steering on par with or even better than the 991's. How Porsche has fallen: the S2000 was so criticised for numb steering back in the day. The king is dead...
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LudegarH22A7
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The steering felt better than anything else I've ever driven.
It'd be hard for me to pinpoint why, though... The way everything comes together is near magical. I haven't experienced such a feeling since I drove the S2000 for the first time back in '00. I don't know if anything short of another Honda powered marvel will ever eclipse that feeling but it was nice to experience a considerable portion thereof.
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CarPhreakD
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notyper wrote:
As expected, 3 main things:
1) Big torque dip around 4000 rpm as shown in other dynos.
2) Excellent low end torque
3) Not much top end.
I'll try and post results and a comparo with some K-series engines tomorrow, but the basic results were 180 hp and 152 lbs-ft at the hubs. The torque is really quite excellent, better than expected. The power is about what we figured. It indicates the power rating is correct, but against so many underrated engines these days (VW GTI, K20Z3 or K24, etc.) it's really a bit weak for the class.
Torquewise, it actually produces peak torque from about 2500-3500 rpm, then dips, and then comes back up to peak at about 5000 rpm and pretty much has flat torque all the way past 6500 rpm.
That bottom end feels really nice on the street as long as you shift by 4000 rpm. It would be nice if you could get rid of the dip. It is certainly more torquey than any stock K20 below 3500 rpm. And from 4500-5500 it at least matches if not exceeds your typical K20. But from 6500 rpm on up, the later K20s (not even the 2011 ringers we've seen) pull away, making about 10+ hp more up top. Naturally, the 2011s pull away sooner and have an even bigger advantage (20+ hp).
Some of the difference is probably the slightly higher losses on a RWD car. But that said I think you have to give props to Subaru/Toyota for a solid bottom end and good peak torque, but they get dinged on the torque dip and a somewhat weak top end. Best comparison? As I suspected, I think it best compares to a K20A2 with a CAI and some extra torque.
We also did some preliminary modifications and were able to find 10 hp pretty easily. In deference to my customer who is developing parts, I won't say exactly what we did. But I do think that finding a total of 30+ hp on this engine with bolt-ons and tuning should be possible.
SC
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I figure an exhaust and ECU tune (spark advance?) would eliminate that hole.
Also, I'm trying my best to ignore the marketing tying the FR-S to the AE86. This thing isn't a hatch/notchback, nor does it have a shitty 4-link rear suspension =)
I'm also okay with the Scion badging. I don't understand why this is such a big issue for people? It's two badges. If you're sore about it, get rid of them. It's just a brand, still belongs to Toyota.
longhorn wrote:
Which platform from Subie? All of their platforms have their motors situated east/west not north/south. Now are you saying they took a FWD platform and tweeked it to a RWD platform? If thats the case,then I am more impressed.
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Are you being serious? How do you think the AWD layout happens for Subaru?
RocketRon wrote:
Not pointless for K20 owners. I believe my 2011 Si is better than the current BRZ/FR-S and only an STI version would temp me towards a test drive. But that's just me being passionate about high revving performance engines.
But you are right, me trying to convince you on waiting is pointless now that I know you'll upgrade if necessary. That being said, I'm temped to annoy you with the upcoming ILX coupe :p but I'll just let you enjoy your new ride!
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Better engine, but again, I don't think the Si has the same driving dynamics as the FR-S. You sound pretty sore about the whole thing. I have a 2006 Civic Si Coupe, and I'm itching to test drive one of these at work. It's 2012 for gawd's sake, there had BETTER be a better car at this point.
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notyper
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I figure an exhaust and ECU tune (spark advance?) would eliminate that hole.
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I don't think so. Unless it needs a cat delete. Spark advance, definitely not. This is a mechanical resonance dip. We'll see what happens when we get access to cam timing, but I don't think that simple changes will eliminate this. Maybe alleviate.
SC
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FiSH-Chan
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Also, I'm trying my best to ignore the marketing tying the FR-S to the AE86. This thing isn't a hatch/notchback, nor does it have a shitty 4-link rear suspension =) |
Sorry to keep bringing this up, but YEA, HAHA.
But credit to Toyota Malaysia (where I am, at least) to market it to manga fans who think driving their mother's rear drive MPV will be able to learn drifting and are people who can't actually afford one. Maybe Toyota thinks their parents will buy one for them if they nag them enough about it, who knows, this seem to be a trend among parents nowadays. After all Toyota think they can sell Lexus LS hybrid for nearly MYR$ 1 Million.
(The people I know who CAN afford one, just barely, says it's far too expensive for what it is, and they won't get one unless they find it used some time later)
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The Legend
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notyper wrote:
We also did some preliminary modifications and were able to find 10 hp pretty easily. In deference to my customer who is developing parts, I won't say exactly what we did. But I do think that finding a total of 30+ hp on this engine with bolt-ons and tuning should be possible.
SC
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from Best Motoring's Hot Version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGWXSqiLHXU&feature=player_detailpage#t=44s
Looks like +30 hp increase is possible by just upgrading the muffler and ECU.
Oh, and that torque dip is NASTY!
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Nick GravesX
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LudegarH22A7 wrote:
The steering felt better than anything else I've ever driven.
It'd be hard for me to pinpoint why, though... The way everything comes together is near magical. I haven't experienced such a feeling since I drove the S2000 for the first time back in '00. I don't know if anything short of another Honda powered marvel will ever eclipse that feeling but it was nice to experience a considerable portion thereof.
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Nail>head.
It's a sort of intangible that some cars have, others don't.
It's in the positivity of all the controls, the way it rotates, a low seating position, window positionings, responsiveness...
The 4WS Prelude is perhaps the nicest car of all to drive and it's not particularly fast, or anything. In fact, its size/power etc isn't terribly far away from the 86, which might be a common factor. Similar is also the S2000.
Contrast the Jazz; it's not the lack of power that makes it depressing to drive; the chassis is actually quite good too. I think it's the over-servo'd brakes, combined with dead steering, mad throttle & that general novocaine feeling that actually makes it miserable.
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DCR
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The Legend wrote:
notyper wrote:
We also did some preliminary modifications and were able to find 10 hp pretty easily. In deference to my customer who is developing parts, I won't say exactly what we did. But I do think that finding a total of 30+ hp on this engine with bolt-ons and tuning should be possible.
SC
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from Best Motoring's Hot Version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGWXSqiLHXU&feature=player_detailpage#t=44s
Looks like +30 hp increase is possible by just upgrading the muffler and ECU.
Oh, and that torque dip is NASTY!
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I ran across this a bit ago:
"When you fully maximize the intake and exhaust cam timing to deliver the most low end torque and the most midrange torque this is what you get, a big dip between the two points."
SC, make sense?
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Nick GravesX
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| Oh dear
(Score: 1, Normal)
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06-29-2012 09:42 |
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BMW & Toyota have announced an agreement to (inter alia) "develop a sports car".
Will the last one out of ToV please turn out the lights & switch off the server?
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notyper
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Not really DCR. Sometimes, with big cams you can get a resonance spike down low, then a dip and the recover. We see this sometimes on K20s with big cams when we kick VTEC in at 3000 rpm or less and then get a dip at 4000. But we don't have exhaust timing control, and it's usually because of a combination of other parts like intake, exhaust and and especially header.
But on single profile cam engines with full intake and exhaust control I'm trying to think if I've ever seen this. VQ35 engines from Nissan - nope, Caddy 4.4 Northstar V8 - nope. I think it has something to do with the short intake (pre-tb) and long intake runners.
On the topic of 30+ hp just from tune and muffler, I really doubt it. Just sayin if you know what I mean.
SC
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DCR
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They've been working to pen that for awhile, but I didn't realize it was this expansive. Given the success of the FT86, (and it is not too early to day that), I imagine this will produce some extremely interesting cars.
BMW and Toyota announced today that they had signed a memorandum of understanding that will see the two automakers expand their research and development partnership. In March, Toyota and BMW agreed to work together on lithium-ion battery development, and in late 2011 the pair inked a deal to share diesel engines for the European market.
Today’s agreement comprises four different components: joint development of a hydrogen fuel-cell system, the architecture for a new lightweight sports car, collaboration on electric powertrains, and work on lightweight technologies.
“Toyota is strong in environment-friendly hybrids and fuel cells… I believe BMW’s strength is developing sports cars,” Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda said in a statement. “I get so excited thinking about the cars that will result from this relationship.”
Read more: http://rumors.automobilemag.com/toyota-and-bmw-partner-to-develop-new-sports-car-electric-cars-fuel-cells-lightweight-tech-151667.html#ixzz1zBpkDoQf |
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DCR
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notyper wrote:
Not really DCR. Sometimes, with big cams you can get a resonance spike down low, then a dip and the recover. We see this sometimes on K20s with big cams when we kick VTEC in at 3000 rpm or less and then get a dip at 4000. But we don't have exhaust timing control, and it's usually because of a combination of other parts like intake, exhaust and and especially header.
But on single profile cam engines with full intake and exhaust control I'm trying to think if I've ever seen this. VQ35 engines from Nissan - nope, Caddy 4.4 Northstar V8 - nope. I think it has something to do with the short intake (pre-tb) and long intake runners.
On the topic of 30+ hp just from tune and muffler, I really doubt it. Just sayin if you know what I mean.
SC
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30hp from that would be great, but yeah...
Someone posted a GS350 dyno from the place I got that quote, saying this was a similar dip:
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longhorn
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longhorn wrote:
Which platform from Subie? All of their platforms have their motors situated east/west not north/south. Now are you saying they took a FWD platform and tweeked it to a RWD platform? If thats the case,then I am more impressed.
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Are you being serious? How do you think the AWD layout happens for Subaru?
Yes, Honda uses a FWD platform with a motor sitting sideways with a shaft going ot the rear. Toyota/Subie did not do that, and from the posts that answered my question it is a dedicated RWD proper platform.
My reason for the question is if Toy/Subie did Frankenstein a FWD platform for this car, and it was this good, then Honda could do the same too.
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longhorn
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The above is a response to Carfreak..................I am not having a conversation with myself................LOL.
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Nick GravesX
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DCR wrote:
They've been working to pen that for awhile, but I didn't realize it was this expansive. Given the success of the FT86, (and it is not too early to day that), I imagine this will produce some extremely interesting cars.
BMW and Toyota announced today that they had signed a memorandum of understanding that will see the two automakers expand their research and development partnership. In March, Toyota and BMW agreed to work together on lithium-ion battery development, and in late 2011 the pair inked a deal to share diesel engines for the European market.
Today’s agreement comprises four different components: joint development of a hydrogen fuel-cell system, the architecture for a new lightweight sports car, collaboration on electric powertrains, and work on lightweight technologies.
“Toyota is strong in environment-friendly hybrids and fuel cells… I believe BMW’s strength is developing sports cars,” Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda said in a statement. “I get so excited thinking about the cars that will result from this relationship.”
Read more: http://rumors.automobilemag.com/toyota-and-bmw-partner-to-develop-new-sports-car-electric-cars-fuel-cells-lightweight-tech-151667.html#ixzz1zBpkDoQf |
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ANOTHER LWS? Talk about going from famine to feast!
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DCR
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That might be the answer to why Toyota gave the FR-S to Scion, outside of the obvious brand rejuvination Scion is receiving. They can slap their name on a BMW/Toyota twin and sell it, what in the S2000 price class?
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TonyEX
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DCR wrote:
They've been working to pen that for awhile, but I didn't realize it was this expansive. Given the success of the FT86, (and it is not too early to day that), I imagine this will produce some extremely interesting cars.
BMW and Toyota announced today that they had signed a memorandum of understanding that will see the two automakers expand their research and development partnership. In March, Toyota and BMW agreed to work together on lithium-ion battery development, and in late 2011 the pair inked a deal to share diesel engines for the European market.
Today’s agreement comprises four different components: joint development of a hydrogen fuel-cell system, the architecture for a new lightweight sports car, collaboration on electric powertrains, and work on lightweight technologies.
“Toyota is strong in environment-friendly hybrids and fuel cells… I believe BMW’s strength is developing sports cars,” Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda said in a statement. “I get so excited thinking about the cars that will result from this relationship.”
Read more: http://rumors.automobilemag.com/toyota-and-bmw-partner-to-develop-new-sports-car-electric-cars-fuel-cells-lightweight-tech-151667.html#ixzz1zBpkDoQf |
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It sounds like they're working on hybrids, electrics and hydrogen.
If you think about it, HMC has been there now for a few years... the new RL and the ED range is exactly all about that.. and then you have the Fit EV and Clarity. Not to mention the Civic GX.
You also have the new SH-SH-AWD based on electric motors which opens up a whole new way for pure EVs, serial-ICE-hybrids, CNG serial hybrids and pure Fuel Cells.
So, I think that HMC has an advantage in the technology because they have cars on the road already...
Of course, Toyota and BMW have much better marketing...
Just sayin', we may not have to turn off the lights... just plug in an extra EU3000i and we're set.
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Nick GravesX
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Sadly, they have nothing in the Pipe Dreams camp.
No 86, no BMota, just JS.
Oh well...
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revvin
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I remember reading somewhere that the torque dip has to do with the intake design, something like it could do with a multi stage induction intake, which is why I thought this car with a Honda engine would be awesome, Honda wouldn't skimp on the motor.
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DCR
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No?
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BachelorFrog
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ichitaka05wrote:
3k~5k is DI only, that's one of the reason for the drop of tq.
~3k it's dual injection.
3.5k~4.5k is single injection
5k~up dual injection again
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owequitit
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TonyE wrote:
DCR wrote:
They've been working to pen that for awhile, but I didn't realize it was this expansive. Given the success of the FT86, (and it is not too early to day that), I imagine this will produce some extremely interesting cars.
BMW and Toyota announced today that they had signed a memorandum of understanding that will see the two automakers expand their research and development partnership. In March, Toyota and BMW agreed to work together on lithium-ion battery development, and in late 2011 the pair inked a deal to share diesel engines for the European market.
Today’s agreement comprises four different components: joint development of a hydrogen fuel-cell system, the architecture for a new lightweight sports car, collaboration on electric powertrains, and work on lightweight technologies.
“Toyota is strong in environment-friendly hybrids and fuel cells… I believe BMW’s strength is developing sports cars,” Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda said in a statement. “I get so excited thinking about the cars that will result from this relationship.”
Read more: http://rumors.automobilemag.com/toyota-and-bmw-partner-to-develop-new-sports-car-electric-cars-fuel-cells-lightweight-tech-151667.html#ixzz1zBpkDoQf |
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It sounds like they're working on hybrids, electrics and hydrogen.
If you think about it, HMC has been there now for a few years... the new RL and the ED range is exactly all about that.. and then you have the Fit EV and Clarity. Not to mention the Civic GX.
You also have the new SH-SH-AWD based on electric motors which opens up a whole new way for pure EVs, serial-ICE-hybrids, CNG serial hybrids and pure Fuel Cells.
So, I think that HMC has an advantage in the technology because they have cars on the road already...
Of course, Toyota and BMW have much better marketing...
Just sayin', we may not have to turn off the lights... just plug in an extra EU3000i and we're set.
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The problem Tony, is that whatever Honda comes up with will likely be blown away by whatever Toyota/BMW comes up with. Toyota already has a strong and unquestionable lead in efficiency (Honda's fuel cell isn't in production either, so it doesn't count at this point), and neither BMW or Toyota are afraid to give a luxury car a proper layout (FR based), while Honda has made it very clear they are unable to stomach the risk...
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WongKN
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The bigger problem from my POV is simply that -unfortunately- BMW, and now Toyota, has shown a degree of focus, single-mindedness, and aggressiveness in their recent products. Compare this to the wishy-washy, NATO, approach that Honda have demonstrated thus far. If this does not kick Honda in the backside, into real action, I don't know what else would.
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MarkR
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WongKN wrote:
The bigger problem from my POV is simply that -unfortunately- BMW, and now Toyota, has shown a degree of focus, single-mindedness, and aggressiveness in their recent products. Compare this to the wishy-washy, NATO, approach that Honda have demonstrated thus far. If this does not kick Honda in the backside, into real action, I don't know what else would.
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With the recent articles about the CEO (Hondas) and how he realize that Honda is lagging behind I do think there is absolutely a possibility that we will see a competitive Honda with good&cool cars again in 2-3years.
The BIG problem and question is how many inside Honda (and the outside supporters) have an attitude like some have here on TOV, which is "a small or mid improvement is good, a flatter torque curve is better or Hey! Honda managed to increase torque by 18%". This kind of attitude will fail Honda since that is NOT the question. The question is: How much do we need to improve to catch up or pass the competitors. I can already now say that if the ED engine manage to increase torque by 20% Honda will still get slapped for being gutless, that is the thruth because they WILL be compared to the rest of the world.
There is no pity column, where you score "pity points" in comparisons, where Honda will get points for being slow because they chose not to take the pill... the verdict will simply be. Nice car, but slow in traffic.
SO, if Honda starts to compete on equal terms and not with strange marketing messages like "yeah, we are slow, but the quarterly numbers are good" etc I am sure Honda will have a great future.
Ps. As I don't live in the US I know the market is different there, so let's say the above is true for Europe.
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FiSH-Chan
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MarkR wrote:
With the recent articles about the CEO (Hondas) and how he realize that Honda is lagging behind I do think there is absolutely a possibility that we will see a competitive Honda with good&cool cars again in 2-3years.
The BIG problem and question is how many inside Honda (and the outside supporters) have an attitude like some have here on TOV, which is "a small or mid improvement is good, a flatter torque curve is better or Hey! Honda managed to increase torque by 18%". This kind of attitude will fail Honda since that is NOT the question. The question is: How much do we need to improve to catch up or pass the competitors. I can already now say that if the ED engine manage to increase torque by 20% Honda will still get slapped for being gutless, that is the thruth because they WILL be compared to the rest of the world.
There is no pity column, where you score "pity points" in comparisons, where Honda will get points for being slow because they chose not to take the pill... the verdict will simply be. Nice car, but slow in traffic.
SO, if Honda starts to compete on equal terms and not with strange marketing messages like "yeah, we are slow, but the quarterly numbers are good" etc I am sure Honda will have a great future.
Ps. As I don't live in the US I know the market is different there, so let's say the above is true for Europe.
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It is a lose-lose situation because even if Honda managed to increase torque by 50% but lose the top end power then people will say Honda has lost its way etc etc etc. Tough being Honda, no?
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owequitit
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Thought this might be a fitting addition to the thread...
http://youtu.be/tPoZ1SC8uwk
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owequitit
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
MarkR wrote:
With the recent articles about the CEO (Hondas) and how he realize that Honda is lagging behind I do think there is absolutely a possibility that we will see a competitive Honda with good&cool cars again in 2-3years.
The BIG problem and question is how many inside Honda (and the outside supporters) have an attitude like some have here on TOV, which is "a small or mid improvement is good, a flatter torque curve is better or Hey! Honda managed to increase torque by 18%". This kind of attitude will fail Honda since that is NOT the question. The question is: How much do we need to improve to catch up or pass the competitors. I can already now say that if the ED engine manage to increase torque by 20% Honda will still get slapped for being gutless, that is the thruth because they WILL be compared to the rest of the world.
There is no pity column, where you score "pity points" in comparisons, where Honda will get points for being slow because they chose not to take the pill... the verdict will simply be. Nice car, but slow in traffic.
SO, if Honda starts to compete on equal terms and not with strange marketing messages like "yeah, we are slow, but the quarterly numbers are good" etc I am sure Honda will have a great future.
Ps. As I don't live in the US I know the market is different there, so let's say the above is true for Europe.
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It is a lose-lose situation because even if Honda managed to increase torque by 50% but lose the top end power then people will say Honda has lost its way etc etc etc. Tough being Honda, no?
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No, actually it isn't. They simply need to come to the realization that not everyone currently needs or wants a battery powered appliance. They also need to remember that they can't please everyone (but when they do it right, they can sure please a hell of a lot of people, as evidenced by their meteoric growth when they still built "Hondas" and not Toyotas). They need to understand (as they USED to) that while people might need "regular" cars, that does not mean that they can't be endowed with a healthy dose of fun and driving enjoyment. They don't need 50% more torque, they don't need 100MPG, then don't need to be the cheapest crap available. They need to be solidly good cars that are well rounded in ALL areas and provide the same distinct package of characteristics that their old cars made. The market didn't change on Honda, Honda changed on the market. Not all for the worse mind you, but we have passed the point of diminishing returns.
Now, before you start throwing out how amazing your Fit is, I will counter with this preemptively:
The Fit is an example of a good Honda. The 8th gen Civic and 7th gen Accords were good Hondas. The 3rd gen TL was a good Honda. The 1st gen Pilot was a good Honda, and the 2nd 3rd and 4th gen Odysseys have been good Hondas. The 1st gen TSX was a good Honda. The CR-V has always been a good Honda. All good "regular" cars that still managed to give what Honda used to do best. However, now we have the fat TL/TSX, the ho-hum RL, the uninspired ILX, the half-assed Civic, etc. Honda can't beat Toyota at the appliance game, nor should they have to. The market is BEGGING for the old Honda back, and if they don't get their shit together, someone else is going to step in and steal the VERY lucrative market niche that they created and used to unquestionably dominate and control.
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FiSH-Chan
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owequitit wrote:
No, actually it isn't. They simply need to come to the realization that not everyone currently needs or wants a battery powered appliance. They also need to remember that they can't please everyone (but when they do it right, they can sure please a hell of a lot of people, as evidenced by their meteoric growth when they still built "Hondas" and not Toyotas). They need to understand (as they USED to) that while people might need "regular" cars, that does not mean that they can't be endowed with a healthy dose of fun and driving enjoyment. They don't need 50% more torque, they don't need 100MPG, then don't need to be the cheapest crap available. They need to be solidly good cars that are well rounded in ALL areas and provide the same distinct package of characteristics that their old cars made. The market didn't change on Honda, Honda changed on the market. Not all for the worse mind you, but we have passed the point of diminishing returns.
Now, before you start throwing out how amazing your Fit is, I will counter with this preemptively:
The Fit is an example of a good Honda. {.....} |
No need for all that, I was saying in response to MarkR's reponse about the torque thing for the Europe thing. The stuff I have been reading for some Europe / UK reviews lately and it's always seem to be about tork tork tork and Hondas are always gutless need more tork too. They always say something like that for a long time actually. But I have a feeling that if they do add more tork then they have something else to say... Agree about the parts Honda don't seem to be doing but I feel there is no need to talk about that.
To clarify I drive a City btw, basically a Fit underside but pretty good example of Honda sedan, seems like trace the root back to the 84+ Civic sedans, while the Civics today trace back to 80s Accords..
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