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Road Race
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I remember when a 4 door Si was heresy, now its a strong competitor. I own one.
Maybe the past Si engines were too small to carry a auto trans well, but with today's 2.4 from the TSX, that can't be the reason now. From the GTI to the RX-8 has auto trans options. I saw the my first BRZ today, its an auto. I just have to wonder, why no auto 2.4 Si or at least ILX?
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FiSH-Chan
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Road Race wrote:
I remember when a 4 door Si was heresy, now its a strong competitor. I own one.
Because if you've read some of the response here, automatics are not 'fun', not for 'enthusiasts', or some other reason. |
I realy have no problem with AT, just like I have no problem with MT. But personally given the traffic situation for me, automatic is 'faster' in stupid heavy trafffic. Have to be quick cutting into lanes or people will never let you past.. the delay with shifting into 1st with manual means that you have lost the space already.. either that or concentrate on the clutch quickly.. very tiring. Such moves might not be legal elsewhere but where I live it is survival.
Maybe the past Si engines were too small to carry a auto trans well |
That is probably not the reason there were EG9 (Civic Ferio SiR) automatics before. Uh, of course those early versions blew up a lot and I know at least 2 friends who changed them to manual. Maybe THAT is the reason.
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xBeastx
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Probably because Honda would put a stupid 5 speed auto or CVT *shudder*, so they decided to make it manual only to stop themselves. Think about it, what Honda/Acura compact has a 6 speed auto? I can't think of any...but now it seems as though Honda will be replacing all of it's small engine 5ATs with the Earth Dreams CVT. I predict that Honda will skip on using 6 or 7 speed autos on their compact cars.
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FiSH-Chan
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xAbSoLuTexZeRo wrote:
Probably because Honda would put a stupid 5 speed auto or CVT *shudder*, so they decided to make it manual only to stop themselves. Think about it, what Honda/Acura compact has a 6 speed auto? I can't think of any...but now it seems as though Honda will be replacing all of it's small engine 5ATs with the Earth Dreams CVT. I predict that Honda will skip on using 6 or 7 speed autos on their compact cars. |
I think the OP wasn't asking for a 6 speed, was asking why no automatic version of the 2.4 (that would be 5 speed as well).
Yea, CVTs make sense for small engines, anything more than 6 speed is just going to be odd. If they could make it 'shift' really quick with paddles, like auto or even as quick as a DCT then why not.
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owequitit
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Road Race wrote:
I remember when a 4 door Si was heresy, now its a strong competitor. I own one.
Maybe the past Si engines were too small to carry a auto trans well, but with today's 2.4 from the TSX, that can't be the reason now. From the GTI to the RX-8 has auto trans options. I saw the my first BRZ today, its an auto. I just have to wonder, why no auto 2.4 Si or at least ILX?
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Probably to keep the perception of purity. Also, IIRC, it was a fairly small group that complained of a 4 door Si being heresy... You have to figure that the original Si's were the most pedestrian of all cars, hatchbacks, so 4 doors didn't seem illogical to me. Especially not with cars like the 5 door GTI, WRX, STI, EVO, MS3 and SRT4 all being available with a greater number of doors. I also think that what allowed the Si 4 door to succeed was that it added a lot of utility and space, but added virtually no weight, lost no performance, and maintained the character of the coupe 100%, which made it more practical with no real tradeoff. I know when I bought mine, I looked at both, and actually preferred the sedan since it drove the same, but was more user-friendly (and cheaper on insurance, if just slightly).
There was a lot more feet stomping when the FD2 Type R debuted as a sedan. However, an often overlooked advantage to the sedan is that the chassis is actually a little bit stiffer than the coupe.
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danielgr
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Road Race wrote:
I remember when a 4 door Si was heresy, now its a strong competitor. I own one.
Maybe the past Si engines were too small to carry a auto trans well, but with today's 2.4 from the TSX, that can't be the reason now. From the GTI to the RX-8 has auto trans options. I saw the my first BRZ today, its an auto. I just have to wonder, why no auto 2.4 Si or at least ILX?
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IMHO, the reason for :
• the SI not to have a 5AT = brand heritage + ILX
• the 2.4L ILX not to have a 5AT = TSX
Once the TSX evolves or disappears I wouldn't be surprised if the second reason vanished and the ILX got it.
Honda always tries to find ways of minimizing the number of options while maximizing the number of potential customers covered..., and that thinking is obviously applied through the range.
PS: I know there is also a 6MT TSX, but also that there is as well a reason why it's now only available without leather while the ILX only with it... See what I'm saying...
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CivicB18
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I remember John Mendel saying the Si will never be offered with an automatic. An automatic in an Si would ruin it's intended purpose just like the 2.4 did.
The ILX 2.4 OTOH, (which is pretty much an Si in a tuxedo sans LSD) should be offered with an automatic since the 2.4 version isn't exactly a performance car. I'd really like to see a 2.0T ILX with around 240hp, LSD and a 7DCT and/or 6MT. This would certainly justify the high price and separate this car from the Civic more.
~Patrick
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Waldo
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There is probably a simpler answer. Honda has to meet US CAFE standards. An AT 2.4 Civic or ILX would be in high demand, and lower Honda's CAFE average.
All auto manufacturers' marketing has to be geared to their CAFE number.
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A77
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Acura should put the 190 hp regular gas 2.4 with an auto in the ILX (this combo in the accord gets 49mpg highway in the accord as against the civic 1.8 getting 56, Canadian govt cycle). It's ridiculous they don't. No wait - we are waiting for the CVT, Maybe it'll just get the reg gas accord ED engine with CVT idc.
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EX V6 SLUSHER
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Road Race wrote:
.......... I just have to wonder, why no auto 2.4 Si or at least ILX?
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At the ILX ride & drive they stated the auto trans would not fit in the 2.4 ILX.
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A77
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yeah - I have been wondering about that possibility - what that means is wouldnt fit without substantial (costly) modifications. So even with more compact mac struts the body just isnt wide enough. But it fits in a CRV....sounds like the ILX should have been designed a bit wider.
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xBeastx
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EX V6 SLUSHER wrote:
Road Race wrote:
.......... I just have to wonder, why no auto 2.4 Si or at least ILX?
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At the ILX ride & drive they stated the auto trans would not fit in the 2.4 ILX.
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Ahhh didn't think about that. Now that I think of it, a 2.4 is a huge engine for such small compact cars. A 2.0 turbo with a 6AT dual clutch would be nice.
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typer_801
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Yes, but Honda is ruled by Bean Counters now. The thought of generating new sales by simply adding an automatic, should be right up there alley. I would imagine Si sales doubling (particuarly 4-doors) with the availability of an auto.
It seems like a no brainer now. And the cost differential between a MT and Auto should be reasonable because the MT has the LSD which definitely adds cost over an Open Diff (that the Auto would have).
CivicB18 wrote:
I remember John Mendel saying the Si will never be offered with an automatic. An automatic in an Si would ruin it's intended purpose just like the 2.4 did.
The ILX 2.4 OTOH, (which is pretty much an Si in a tuxedo sans LSD) should be offered with an automatic since the 2.4 version isn't exactly a performance car. I'd really like to see a 2.0T ILX with around 240hp, LSD and a 7DCT and/or 6MT. This would certainly justify the high price and separate this car from the Civic more.
~Patrick
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CivicB18
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typer_801 wrote:
Yes, but Honda is ruled by Bean Counters now. The thought of generating new sales by simply adding an automatic, should be right up there alley. I would imagine Si sales doubling (particuarly 4-doors) with the availability of an auto.
It seems like a no brainer now. And the cost differential between a MT and Auto should be reasonable because the MT has the LSD which definitely adds cost over an Open Diff (that the Auto would have).
CivicB18 wrote:
I remember John Mendel saying the Si will never be offered with an automatic. An automatic in an Si would ruin it's intended purpose just like the 2.4 did.
The ILX 2.4 OTOH, (which is pretty much an Si in a tuxedo sans LSD) should be offered with an automatic since the 2.4 version isn't exactly a performance car. I'd really like to see a 2.0T ILX with around 240hp, LSD and a 7DCT and/or 6MT. This would certainly justify the high price and separate this car from the Civic more.
~Patrick
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The bean counters USED to be in charge. Erik Berkman should be able to change Honda's direction as he is certainly capable. I'm hoping he has a lot of influence on the Civic's MMC.
An Si with an available AT may increase Si sales but it truly would make me sick to my stomach as this is Honda's 1 and only "high performance" offering which just received a major watering down when the economy based 2.4 was implemented. The implementation of the 2.4 was bad enough. An automatic version would put the nail in the coffin as enthusiasts are already shaking their heads in disappointment.
~Patrick
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typer_801
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I'm not sure I could use the words 'High Performance' and 'Civic Si' in the same sentence. The Si really isn't a high performance car, in fact it never has been.
Sporty, yes, but not high-performance. Even harder to mudder those words now in the softened 2012 state where the Si has more body roll, doesn't rev as high, has a slower steering ratio, larger wheel gaps and is a back marker to the true high-performance sport compacts by a very large margin (think Evo, Sti, MS3).
[~Patrick wrote:
The bean counters USED to be in charge. Erik Berkman should be able to change Honda's direction as he is certainly capable. I'm hoping he has a lot of influence on the Civic's MMC.
An Si with an available AT may increase Si sales but it truly would make me sick to my stomach as this is Honda's 1 and only "high performance" offering which just received a major watering down when the economy based 2.4 was implemented. The implementation of the 2.4 was bad enough. An automatic version would put the nail in the coffin as enthusiasts are already shaking their heads in disappointment.
~Patrick
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Dream'R
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I also wondered why the ILX didn't get the 2.4 (regular fuel version) as its base engine. However, now that we have some idea of the new ED drivetrains coming in the next few years it seems more likely that some Honda/Acura engine displacements will be reduced. This trend is very evident looking at what European brands are doing lately.
In other words, the decision to limit the current base engine to 2.0 may be because their long-term plans for the ILX are to use the new 2.0 ED engine with CVT. It's also obvious that the 2.4 with 5AT is being phased out so why bother to design any new model to use it.
I expect that the Civic will not see any further increase in displacement as the new ED engines are introduced. It's possible they may even reduce them to 1.6 so long as preformance matches the current 1.8 motor. This would also allow the ILX with the ED 2.0 to appear even more "superior" than the Civic.
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CivicB18
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typer_801 wrote:
I'm not sure I could use the words 'High Performance' and 'Civic Si' in the same sentence. The Si really isn't a high performance car, in fact it never has been.
Sporty, yes, but not high-performance. Even harder to mudder those words now in the softened 2012 state where the Si has more body roll, doesn't rev as high, has a slower steering ratio, larger wheel gaps and is a back marker to the true high-performance sport compacts by a very large margin (think Evo, Sti, MS3).
[~Patrick wrote:
The bean counters USED to be in charge. Erik Berkman should be able to change Honda's direction as he is certainly capable. I'm hoping he has a lot of influence on the Civic's MMC.
An Si with an available AT may increase Si sales but it truly would make me sick to my stomach as this is Honda's 1 and only "high performance" offering which just received a major watering down when the economy based 2.4 was implemented. The implementation of the 2.4 was bad enough. An automatic version would put the nail in the coffin as enthusiasts are already shaking their heads in disappointment.
~Patrick
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That's why I said "high performance" quote unquote. It's the only performance offering from Honda currently and it's a sad one.
~Patrick
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CivicB18
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Road Race wrote:
I remember when a 4 door Si was heresy, now its a strong competitor. I own one.
Maybe the past Si engines were too small to carry a auto trans well, but with today's 2.4 from the TSX, that can't be the reason now. From the GTI to the RX-8 has auto trans options. I saw the my first BRZ today, its an auto. I just have to wonder, why no auto 2.4 Si or at least ILX?
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The sedan was added as there was a strong market for higher performing compact sedan. Also, adding 2 doors didn't ruin what the Si stood for or the overal Si experience. The 2.4 ruined the Si and an automatic would do so even further.
~Patrick
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jheighto
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Better question would be: Why can't you get a tech pack with the 2.4 ILX?
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owequitit
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CivicB18 wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Yes, but Honda is ruled by Bean Counters now. The thought of generating new sales by simply adding an automatic, should be right up there alley. I would imagine Si sales doubling (particuarly 4-doors) with the availability of an auto.
It seems like a no brainer now. And the cost differential between a MT and Auto should be reasonable because the MT has the LSD which definitely adds cost over an Open Diff (that the Auto would have).
CivicB18 wrote:
I remember John Mendel saying the Si will never be offered with an automatic. An automatic in an Si would ruin it's intended purpose just like the 2.4 did.
The ILX 2.4 OTOH, (which is pretty much an Si in a tuxedo sans LSD) should be offered with an automatic since the 2.4 version isn't exactly a performance car. I'd really like to see a 2.0T ILX with around 240hp, LSD and a 7DCT and/or 6MT. This would certainly justify the high price and separate this car from the Civic more.
~Patrick
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The bean counters USED to be in charge. Erik Berkman should be able to change Honda's direction as he is certainly capable. I'm hoping he has a lot of influence on the Civic's MMC.
An Si with an available AT may increase Si sales but it truly would make me sick to my stomach as this is Honda's 1 and only "high performance" offering which just received a major watering down when the economy based 2.4 was implemented. The implementation of the 2.4 was bad enough. An automatic version would put the nail in the coffin as enthusiasts are already shaking their heads in disappointment.
~Patrick
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It is an encouraging sign, but as of right now, there is no proof that he has the clout to stop or fix anything. He is still only #2 in America, which makes him under the President of America, who is under much of the Japanese management. Since Japanese companies tend to rule by committee (one of the reasons the old Honda was able to avoid much of the Japanese stigma for boring was that it DIDN'T rule as much by committee), his new position is no guarantee of change.
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CivicB18
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owequitit wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Yes, but Honda is ruled by Bean Counters now. The thought of generating new sales by simply adding an automatic, should be right up there alley. I would imagine Si sales doubling (particuarly 4-doors) with the availability of an auto.
It seems like a no brainer now. And the cost differential between a MT and Auto should be reasonable because the MT has the LSD which definitely adds cost over an Open Diff (that the Auto would have).
CivicB18 wrote:
I remember John Mendel saying the Si will never be offered with an automatic. An automatic in an Si would ruin it's intended purpose just like the 2.4 did.
The ILX 2.4 OTOH, (which is pretty much an Si in a tuxedo sans LSD) should be offered with an automatic since the 2.4 version isn't exactly a performance car. I'd really like to see a 2.0T ILX with around 240hp, LSD and a 7DCT and/or 6MT. This would certainly justify the high price and separate this car from the Civic more.
~Patrick
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The bean counters USED to be in charge. Erik Berkman should be able to change Honda's direction as he is certainly capable. I'm hoping he has a lot of influence on the Civic's MMC.
An Si with an available AT may increase Si sales but it truly would make me sick to my stomach as this is Honda's 1 and only "high performance" offering which just received a major watering down when the economy based 2.4 was implemented. The implementation of the 2.4 was bad enough. An automatic version would put the nail in the coffin as enthusiasts are already shaking their heads in disappointment.
~Patrick
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It is an encouraging sign, but as of right now, there is no proof that he has the clout to stop or fix anything. He is still only #2 in America, which makes him under the President of America, who is under much of the Japanese management. Since Japanese companies tend to rule by committee (one of the reasons the old Honda was able to avoid much of the Japanese stigma for boring was that it DIDN'T rule as much by committee), his new position is no guarantee of change.
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Proof? He pushed and pushed and pushed until he got the 2004 TL's design, material selection etc etc approved even though it was controversial. It turned out to be the number 1 selling luxury car for a few years. Keep in mind he was in a lower position back then vs now.
The Japanese (upper management/comittee whatever you want to call them) are the ones who gave him the position as per the article, they strongly believe he has what it takes to significantly strengthen AHM. The all new Accord should further strengthen his reputation for well executed products. The Accord is just the start of things to come as I have a good feeling about Berkman.
~Patrick
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owequitit
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CivicB18 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Yes, but Honda is ruled by Bean Counters now. The thought of generating new sales by simply adding an automatic, should be right up there alley. I would imagine Si sales doubling (particuarly 4-doors) with the availability of an auto.
It seems like a no brainer now. And the cost differential between a MT and Auto should be reasonable because the MT has the LSD which definitely adds cost over an Open Diff (that the Auto would have).
CivicB18 wrote:
I remember John Mendel saying the Si will never be offered with an automatic. An automatic in an Si would ruin it's intended purpose just like the 2.4 did.
The ILX 2.4 OTOH, (which is pretty much an Si in a tuxedo sans LSD) should be offered with an automatic since the 2.4 version isn't exactly a performance car. I'd really like to see a 2.0T ILX with around 240hp, LSD and a 7DCT and/or 6MT. This would certainly justify the high price and separate this car from the Civic more.
~Patrick
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The bean counters USED to be in charge. Erik Berkman should be able to change Honda's direction as he is certainly capable. I'm hoping he has a lot of influence on the Civic's MMC.
An Si with an available AT may increase Si sales but it truly would make me sick to my stomach as this is Honda's 1 and only "high performance" offering which just received a major watering down when the economy based 2.4 was implemented. The implementation of the 2.4 was bad enough. An automatic version would put the nail in the coffin as enthusiasts are already shaking their heads in disappointment.
~Patrick
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It is an encouraging sign, but as of right now, there is no proof that he has the clout to stop or fix anything. He is still only #2 in America, which makes him under the President of America, who is under much of the Japanese management. Since Japanese companies tend to rule by committee (one of the reasons the old Honda was able to avoid much of the Japanese stigma for boring was that it DIDN'T rule as much by committee), his new position is no guarantee of change.
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Proof? He pushed and pushed and pushed until he got the 2004 TL's design, material selection etc etc approved even though it was controversial. It turned out to be the number 1 selling luxury car for a few years. Keep in mind he was in a lower position back then vs now.
The Japanese (upper management/comittee whatever you want to call them) are the ones who gave him the position as per the article, they strongly believe he has what it takes to significantly strengthen AHM. The all new Accord should further strengthen his reputation for well executed products. The Accord is just the start of things to come as I have a good feeling about Berkman.
~Patrick
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Like I said, I will believe it when I see it on a widespread basis. You can believe whatever you want. I choose to wait, because too many times Honda was going to revolutionize themselves and didn't.
I also think the styling/product shakeup is encouraging, but what isn't encouraging was Ito's push for a shitty cheap Civic interior, more hybrids (that clearly very few actually want), and the compromised nature of the new RL's platform. His not so veiled statements about cost cutting and profit margins are also not very encouraging. The NSX has potential, but then again, it could go right where the original did where it is decent to begin with, creates an initial stir and then rots on the vine for a decade and a half.
So while signs like Berkman getting promoted, the styling shakeup, and several other key changes do give me hope for the future, they are also tempered by other known factors that could easily undo that change. Given Honda's recent track record, I am not going to jump into blind faith.
Believe me, I really do want the old Honda back, and I want them to succeed and I want people like Berkman to make that happen. But, at the same time, I am not going to believe it until I see it. Based on certain technological debuts (or lack thereof in some cases), I am not even sure just how superior Honda's engineering prowess is these days either. I think they have let a lot of their core strengths atrophy more than they want to let on or more than we know.
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CivicB18
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owequitit wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Yes, but Honda is ruled by Bean Counters now. The thought of generating new sales by simply adding an automatic, should be right up there alley. I would imagine Si sales doubling (particuarly 4-doors) with the availability of an auto.
It seems like a no brainer now. And the cost differential between a MT and Auto should be reasonable because the MT has the LSD which definitely adds cost over an Open Diff (that the Auto would have).
CivicB18 wrote:
I remember John Mendel saying the Si will never be offered with an automatic. An automatic in an Si would ruin it's intended purpose just like the 2.4 did.
The ILX 2.4 OTOH, (which is pretty much an Si in a tuxedo sans LSD) should be offered with an automatic since the 2.4 version isn't exactly a performance car. I'd really like to see a 2.0T ILX with around 240hp, LSD and a 7DCT and/or 6MT. This would certainly justify the high price and separate this car from the Civic more.
~Patrick
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The bean counters USED to be in charge. Erik Berkman should be able to change Honda's direction as he is certainly capable. I'm hoping he has a lot of influence on the Civic's MMC.
An Si with an available AT may increase Si sales but it truly would make me sick to my stomach as this is Honda's 1 and only "high performance" offering which just received a major watering down when the economy based 2.4 was implemented. The implementation of the 2.4 was bad enough. An automatic version would put the nail in the coffin as enthusiasts are already shaking their heads in disappointment.
~Patrick
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It is an encouraging sign, but as of right now, there is no proof that he has the clout to stop or fix anything. He is still only #2 in America, which makes him under the President of America, who is under much of the Japanese management. Since Japanese companies tend to rule by committee (one of the reasons the old Honda was able to avoid much of the Japanese stigma for boring was that it DIDN'T rule as much by committee), his new position is no guarantee of change.
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Proof? He pushed and pushed and pushed until he got the 2004 TL's design, material selection etc etc approved even though it was controversial. It turned out to be the number 1 selling luxury car for a few years. Keep in mind he was in a lower position back then vs now.
The Japanese (upper management/comittee whatever you want to call them) are the ones who gave him the position as per the article, they strongly believe he has what it takes to significantly strengthen AHM. The all new Accord should further strengthen his reputation for well executed products. The Accord is just the start of things to come as I have a good feeling about Berkman.
~Patrick
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Like I said, I will believe it when I see it on a widespread basis. You can believe whatever you want. I choose to wait, because too many times Honda was going to revolutionize themselves and didn't.
I also think the styling/product shakeup is encouraging, but what isn't encouraging was Ito's push for a shitty cheap Civic interior, more hybrids (that clearly very few actually want), and the compromised nature of the new RL's platform. His not so veiled statements about cost cutting and profit margins are also not very encouraging. The NSX has potential, but then again, it could go right where the original did where it is decent to begin with, creates an initial stir and then rots on the vine for a decade and a half.
So while signs like Berkman getting promoted, the styling shakeup, and several other key changes do give me hope for the future, they are also tempered by other known factors that could easily undo that change. Given Honda's recent track record, I am not going to jump into blind faith.
Believe me, I really do want the old Honda back, and I want them to succeed and I want people like Berkman to make that happen. But, at the same time, I am not going to believe it until I see it. Based on certain technological debuts (or lack thereof in some cases), I am not even sure just how superior Honda's engineering prowess is these days either. I think they have let a lot of their core strengths atrophy more than they want to let on or more than we know.
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I fully understand your frustrations and doubts but this situation is a bit different compared to past events. Honda (to my knowledge) has never been in this type of position before as to where they have so so products which are being attacked by even more competiton. VW, the Koreans and the domestics have upped the ante significantly over the past few years and the other more established competitors (Toyota/Nissan) certainly arent going anywhere as they have improved products also.
With that said I really think Honda is starting to open its eyes and see what's going on in the market. I think Honda now knows that they have to do something other than be average as trying to please everybody with product only leads to bland and boring. Honda needs to start building Hondas again yet still offer innovations, technologies, features and amenities that are expected in the class. They have to become the benchmark they used to be and return to the core values and philosophy that Honda used to go by. I think Mr. Berkman understands this as he is a true hard core Honda enthusiasts who seems to like and want change.
As I stated before, the new Accord seems to be the first step in the right direction as from what I've read and seen in various articles and pictures, the Accord seems to have what it takes to be a segment leader. The design overall is much more pleasing to the eye as the proportions are correct and there is much more surface tension. The interior looks awesome, the addition of all new and significantly revised drivetrains and according to Berkman, the Accord will be the most feature rich to date. Hopefully it will also be a bit smaller so the former Honda chassis characteristics will make it shine like past Accords.
My biggest worry for Honda would be consistent execution across the board and consistent execution with future generations of those models. However, Honda used to be good at that so hopefully that high level of consistent execution will return.
In regards to Acura, I still think the sedan lineup is a bit off. The RLX seems to be good on paper although I'm not a fan of it's interior design. The TL and TSX are still too close in size but if they kill the TSX there will be a large gap between the TL and ILX. So would they be better off killing the TSX, upgrading the ILX (new drivetrains and exclusive Acura technologies) while broadening the TL's focus as to wear it can become a replacement for the TSX yet still be able to compete where it is currently? Personally, I think Acura could have 4 different sized sedans in the lineup as Audi does it and their cars are sized appropriately, although the A3 isnt a sedan.
As for the MDX, I know an all new version should be out soon so hopefully Acura will just evolve and modernize the awesome formula and combination of attributes of the current model as it's still very competitive and drives really well. The RDX.........I know it's more refined vs the former and I know it's a huge seller for Acura currently but I'd like to see something more aggressive in terms of handling and styling as it's just a bit too vanilla for my tastes. I think there should be a "Type-S" version with firmer suspension tuning, sportier exterior/interior treatments and a more aggressive wheel/tire combo and the new ED 310hp 3.5 V6. Just about all of the RDX's competitors offer a more sportier model. Now Lexus is even offering an F-Sport RX350!
Back to subject, I still believe the new Accord will be the turning point for Honda and hopefully Mr. Berkman can continue to influence the higher ups and deliver products that are desirable and interesting like the Hondas of yesterday.
~Patrick
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TonyEX
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Road Race wrote:
I remember when a 4 door Si was heresy, now its a strong competitor. I own one.
Maybe the past Si engines were too small to carry a auto trans well, but with today's 2.4 from the TSX, that can't be the reason now. From the GTI to the RX-8 has auto trans options. I saw the my first BRZ today, its an auto. I just have to wonder, why no auto 2.4 Si or at least ILX?
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(1) Si.
The Si moniker has only used for MT powered cars that represent the most power car in the range (OK, the Type R exceeds that).
Thus, a K24AT Civic would make no sense as an Si and little sense as an EX-i. What would make sense is an EX with the R20 and an AT5. But that would compete directly with the base ILX, so fat chance of ever seeing that combination.
Besides, 140bhp in a Civic LX/EX is fine. I doubt that market is clamoring for more power.
(2) ILX
There is precedent in the Acura line to provide equally powered MT and AT Type S models with the same power: TSX and TL. However there is no such for the Integra and RSX.
I think the best simulacrum here would be the old Integra GS and GSR. The GS offered 140bhp and could be bought with an AT4 whereas the GSR only came with the 170bhp/MT5 setup.
However, the current K24 ILX is a mixture between a base trim and the Type S (no Tech package available)... So, to offer the K24 both with AT and MT.. it would mean that the K24/MT would have to offer the LSD -which it currently does not!
So, for the ILX K24 to offer an AT, the MT should be offered as K24/MT6/LSD and then there could be a K24/AT6.
But, since there is no AT6... most likely it would have to be a K24/CVT-SS from the ED pipeline.
Naturally, both ILX K24 trim levels need to come with the Tech package standard, not as an option... unless AHM decides to make a high output K22/MT6/LSD ILX-R....
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Bullwinkle
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owequitit wrote:
It is an encouraging sign, but as of right now, there is no proof that he has the clout to stop or fix anything. He is still only #2 in America, which makes him under the President of America, who is under much of the Japanese management. Since Japanese companies tend to rule by committee (one of the reasons the old Honda was able to avoid much of the Japanese stigma for boring was that it DIDN'T rule as much by committee), his new position is no guarantee of change.
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Sometimes I think no one really pays attention. There is only ONE THING that makes any difference in Business and determines how much money you get to play with and hoe much influence you have, and that is the answer to this question:
"What have you done for me lately?"
So What was Berkman running before his current job? Honda Performance Development, the racing arm of American Honda.
What was HPD before he took over? Little more than an engine servicing company that took Ilmor-designed Indycar engines and rebuilt them and helped advise teams on using them.
What is HPD now? A full featured racing organization that Develops and produces everything from go-fast parts for the track to full cars capable of winning LeMans, like Honda won LMP2 at Lemans this year. It modifies stock engines. It designed and built the new Indycar engine from scratch. It sells racing versions of road cars. It sells full on prototype racers for LeMans sports car racing. Some of the business ideas developed at HPD are taking root at the rest of the company, particularly at HRC (motorcycle racing), where they will be selling racing bikes instead of leasing.
In LeMans racing, there is speculation of a Full Factory Honda effort for LeMans in 2013 or 2014.
THe one thing that is for sure is that the Factory Effort would NOT be run from Japan. It would be run from California, by HPD, which is more involved in auto racing than the Japanese parent company.
More importantly, HPD MAKES MONEY in racing, on it's own. In a down market for racing. As well as developing engineers and ideas.
The only other companies in the world that are in the same position are companies like Porsche, Ferrari and (maybe) Audi.
That's what Erik Berkman has done lately. He built a profitable racing division within American Honda, without a lot of investment.
So anyone who thinks he is not going to make a difference in American Honda at large is simply not paying attention.
In fact, I would not be surprised if he is the first American Chief Executive of American Honda. And maybe the First American on the board of directors of HMC Japan.
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CivicB18
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Bullwinkle wrote:
owequitit wrote:
It is an encouraging sign, but as of right now, there is no proof that he has the clout to stop or fix anything. He is still only #2 in America, which makes him under the President of America, who is under much of the Japanese management. Since Japanese companies tend to rule by committee (one of the reasons the old Honda was able to avoid much of the Japanese stigma for boring was that it DIDN'T rule as much by committee), his new position is no guarantee of change.
|
Sometimes I think no one really pays attention. There is only ONE THING that makes any difference in Business and determines how much money you get to play with and hoe much influence you have, and that is the answer to this question:
"What have you done for me lately?"
So What was Berkman running before his current job? Honda Performance Development, the racing arm of American Honda.
What was HPD before he took over? Little more than an engine servicing company that took Ilmor-designed Indycar engines and rebuilt them and helped advise teams on using them.
What is HPD now? A full featured racing organization that Develops and produces everything from go-fast parts for the track to full cars capable of winning LeMans, like Honda won LMP2 at Lemans this year. It modifies stock engines. It designed and built the new Indycar engine from scratch. It sells racing versions of road cars. It sells full on prototype racers for LeMans sports car racing. Some of the business ideas developed at HPD are taking root at the rest of the company, particularly at HRC (motorcycle racing), where they will be selling racing bikes instead of leasing.
In LeMans racing, there is speculation of a Full Factory Honda effort for LeMans in 2013 or 2014.
THe one thing that is for sure is that the Factory Effort would NOT be run from Japan. It would be run from California, by HPD, which is more involved in auto racing than the Japanese parent company.
More importantly, HPD MAKES MONEY in racing, on it's own. In a down market for racing. As well as developing engineers and ideas.
The only other companies in the world that are in the same position are companies like Porsche, Ferrari and (maybe) Audi.
That's what Erik Berkman has done lately. He built a profitable racing division within American Honda, without a lot of investment.
So anyone who thinks he is not going to make a difference in American Honda at large is simply not paying attention.
In fact, I would not be surprised if he is the first American Chief Executive of American Honda. And maybe the First American on the board of directors of HMC Japan.
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+1
~Patrick
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owequitit
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CivicB18 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Yes, but Honda is ruled by Bean Counters now. The thought of generating new sales by simply adding an automatic, should be right up there alley. I would imagine Si sales doubling (particuarly 4-doors) with the availability of an auto.
It seems like a no brainer now. And the cost differential between a MT and Auto should be reasonable because the MT has the LSD which definitely adds cost over an Open Diff (that the Auto would have).
CivicB18 wrote:
I remember John Mendel saying the Si will never be offered with an automatic. An automatic in an Si would ruin it's intended purpose just like the 2.4 did.
The ILX 2.4 OTOH, (which is pretty much an Si in a tuxedo sans LSD) should be offered with an automatic since the 2.4 version isn't exactly a performance car. I'd really like to see a 2.0T ILX with around 240hp, LSD and a 7DCT and/or 6MT. This would certainly justify the high price and separate this car from the Civic more.
~Patrick
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The bean counters USED to be in charge. Erik Berkman should be able to change Honda's direction as he is certainly capable. I'm hoping he has a lot of influence on the Civic's MMC.
An Si with an available AT may increase Si sales but it truly would make me sick to my stomach as this is Honda's 1 and only "high performance" offering which just received a major watering down when the economy based 2.4 was implemented. The implementation of the 2.4 was bad enough. An automatic version would put the nail in the coffin as enthusiasts are already shaking their heads in disappointment.
~Patrick
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It is an encouraging sign, but as of right now, there is no proof that he has the clout to stop or fix anything. He is still only #2 in America, which makes him under the President of America, who is under much of the Japanese management. Since Japanese companies tend to rule by committee (one of the reasons the old Honda was able to avoid much of the Japanese stigma for boring was that it DIDN'T rule as much by committee), his new position is no guarantee of change.
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Proof? He pushed and pushed and pushed until he got the 2004 TL's design, material selection etc etc approved even though it was controversial. It turned out to be the number 1 selling luxury car for a few years. Keep in mind he was in a lower position back then vs now.
The Japanese (upper management/comittee whatever you want to call them) are the ones who gave him the position as per the article, they strongly believe he has what it takes to significantly strengthen AHM. The all new Accord should further strengthen his reputation for well executed products. The Accord is just the start of things to come as I have a good feeling about Berkman.
~Patrick
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Like I said, I will believe it when I see it on a widespread basis. You can believe whatever you want. I choose to wait, because too many times Honda was going to revolutionize themselves and didn't.
I also think the styling/product shakeup is encouraging, but what isn't encouraging was Ito's push for a shitty cheap Civic interior, more hybrids (that clearly very few actually want), and the compromised nature of the new RL's platform. His not so veiled statements about cost cutting and profit margins are also not very encouraging. The NSX has potential, but then again, it could go right where the original did where it is decent to begin with, creates an initial stir and then rots on the vine for a decade and a half.
So while signs like Berkman getting promoted, the styling shakeup, and several other key changes do give me hope for the future, they are also tempered by other known factors that could easily undo that change. Given Honda's recent track record, I am not going to jump into blind faith.
Believe me, I really do want the old Honda back, and I want them to succeed and I want people like Berkman to make that happen. But, at the same time, I am not going to believe it until I see it. Based on certain technological debuts (or lack thereof in some cases), I am not even sure just how superior Honda's engineering prowess is these days either. I think they have let a lot of their core strengths atrophy more than they want to let on or more than we know.
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I fully understand your frustrations and doubts but this situation is a bit different compared to past events. Honda (to my knowledge) has never been in this type of position before as to where they have so so products which are being attacked by even more competiton. VW, the Koreans and the domestics have upped the ante significantly over the past few years and the other more established competitors (Toyota/Nissan) certainly arent going anywhere as they have improved products also.
With that said I really think Honda is starting to open its eyes and see what's going on in the market. I think Honda now knows that they have to do something other than be average as trying to please everybody with product only leads to bland and boring. Honda needs to start building Hondas again yet still offer innovations, technologies, features and amenities that are expected in the class. They have to become the benchmark they used to be and return to the core values and philosophy that Honda used to go by. I think Mr. Berkman understands this as he is a true hard core Honda enthusiasts who seems to like and want change.
As I stated before, the new Accord seems to be the first step in the right direction as from what I've read and seen in various articles and pictures, the Accord seems to have what it takes to be a segment leader. The design overall is much more pleasing to the eye as the proportions are correct and there is much more surface tension. The interior looks awesome, the addition of all new and significantly revised drivetrains and according to Berkman, the Accord will be the most feature rich to date. Hopefully it will also be a bit smaller so the former Honda chassis characteristics will make it shine like past Accords.
My biggest worry for Honda would be consistent execution across the board and consistent execution with future generations of those models. However, Honda used to be good at that so hopefully that high level of consistent execution will return.
In regards to Acura, I still think the sedan lineup is a bit off. The RLX seems to be good on paper although I'm not a fan of it's interior design. The TL and TSX are still too close in size but if they kill the TSX there will be a large gap between the TL and ILX. So would they be better off killing the TSX, upgrading the ILX (new drivetrains and exclusive Acura technologies) while broadening the TL's focus as to wear it can become a replacement for the TSX yet still be able to compete where it is currently? Personally, I think Acura could have 4 different sized sedans in the lineup as Audi does it and their cars are sized appropriately, although the A3 isnt a sedan.
As for the MDX, I know an all new version should be out soon so hopefully Acura will just evolve and modernize the awesome formula and combination of attributes of the current model as it's still very competitive and drives really well. The RDX.........I know it's more refined vs the former and I know it's a huge seller for Acura currently but I'd like to see something more aggressive in terms of handling and styling as it's just a bit too vanilla for my tastes. I think there should be a "Type-S" version with firmer suspension tuning, sportier exterior/interior treatments and a more aggressive wheel/tire combo and the new ED 310hp 3.5 V6. Just about all of the RDX's competitors offer a more sportier model. Now Lexus is even offering an F-Sport RX350!
Back to subject, I still believe the new Accord will be the turning point for Honda and hopefully Mr. Berkman can continue to influence the higher ups and deliver products that are desirable and interesting like the Hondas of yesterday.
~Patrick
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The Accord does look encouraging, and as a mostly loyal Honda owner through the Accord line, that is very important to me. However, having owned as many Accords as we have, I can see a lot of potential detail stuff that could be compromised if not executed properly. I thought the Civic looked encouraging initially too. But it didn't end up being that way mostly through detail execution. Same with the ILX. So while the Accord MIGHT be the turning point, it has not proven to be just yet. Honda is still misfiring 2 or 3 out of every 4 products. So like I said, if the Accord represents a turning point, than the TL will smash out of the park, the RL will smash out of the park, the MDX will smash out of the park, the Pilot will smash out of the park etc. Honda used to be great at execution. But remember that as the bean counters pushed everyone else out, the remnants were NOT the same as what drove that execution; as evidenced by current product. I remember someone (I think CB77) talking about how Honda's pursuit to push "old blood" out and drive labor costs down with early retirement offers was driving a lot of really good people from the company, and retaining the talent that couldn't go elsewhere. That is never a good thing and it doesn't reverse with one product cycle. Plus, if Honda was really as capable as it once was, they NEVER would have started misfiring in the first place. Can it be fixed? Yes. Will it? Too early to tell, but as of yet, there is absolutely no proof that Honda's unquestionable product execution is back.
As big of a cog as Berkman might be, he is still a Cog, and he is still a cog that has larger cogs to contend with.
*I agree that Honda has never been in this position before, and hopefully it will light a genuine fire to get back to what they do best, but until it happens it hasn't happened. Sorry, it is the truth.
Also, as for HPD in the post below yours, I am well aware of what HPD is and what they were. However, he was dealing with a very small division of a very large company. I am not at all trying to take away from him, because he is one of the few Honda executives I have long admired in Honda's business (especially in recent times), but the reality is that dealing with the budgets and product realities he will be taking on are going to come with a lot more politics and strings attached. It is just the reality of larger budgets.
However, I hope he can (or has) convinced management that sometimes "risk" in the form of additional expenditure is worth the time/money.
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Road Race
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My brother has a '11 2.4 TSX and wants something a bit smaller for himself. He does not want a stick. The best I can find for 0-60 time is 9 seconds for the 2 liter. Speed matters to him.
Here is a web selection of reviewed competitor's 0-60 times.
Audi A3 - 7.0, Audi A4 - 6.8, IS 250 - 8.3, Volvo C30 - 6.7, Infinity G25 - 7.1 seconds.
Face it, 80+ percent of cars are are sold with autos. If its a 9 second car, the 2.0 auto ILX is pretty much a pooch in its class. But if they offered an auto trans 2.4 my guess is its a high 6 second car. That performance would compare favorably to it's segment and it would be at a very good price point. It would also be a big step up from the auto EX.
Too bad they didn't do it, I think it would be neat for an auto trans ILX to be the performance and price leader in its segment.
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Farage1
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The ILX 2.4 is begging for a auto/dual clutch. They are missing out on so many sales.
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Power Of Dreams
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Bullwinkle wrote:
owequitit wrote:
It is an encouraging sign, but as of right now, there is no proof that he has the clout to stop or fix anything. He is still only #2 in America, which makes him under the President of America, who is under much of the Japanese management. Since Japanese companies tend to rule by committee (one of the reasons the old Honda was able to avoid much of the Japanese stigma for boring was that it DIDN'T rule as much by committee), his new position is no guarantee of change.
|
Sometimes I think no one really pays attention. There is only ONE THING that makes any difference in Business and determines how much money you get to play with and hoe much influence you have, and that is the answer to this question:
"What have you done for me lately?"
So What was Berkman running before his current job? Honda Performance Development, the racing arm of American Honda.
What was HPD before he took over? Little more than an engine servicing company that took Ilmor-designed Indycar engines and rebuilt them and helped advise teams on using them.
What is HPD now? A full featured racing organization that Develops and produces everything from go-fast parts for the track to full cars capable of winning LeMans, like Honda won LMP2 at Lemans this year. It modifies stock engines. It designed and built the new Indycar engine from scratch. It sells racing versions of road cars. It sells full on prototype racers for LeMans sports car racing. Some of the business ideas developed at HPD are taking root at the rest of the company, particularly at HRC (motorcycle racing), where they will be selling racing bikes instead of leasing.
In LeMans racing, there is speculation of a Full Factory Honda effort for LeMans in 2013 or 2014.
THe one thing that is for sure is that the Factory Effort would NOT be run from Japan. It would be run from California, by HPD, which is more involved in auto racing than the Japanese parent company.
More importantly, HPD MAKES MONEY in racing, on it's own. In a down market for racing. As well as developing engineers and ideas.
The only other companies in the world that are in the same position are companies like Porsche, Ferrari and (maybe) Audi.
That's what Erik Berkman has done lately. He built a profitable racing division within American Honda, without a lot of investment.
So anyone who thinks he is not going to make a difference in American Honda at large is simply not paying attention.
In fact, I would not be surprised if he is the first American Chief Executive of American Honda. And maybe the First American on the board of directors of HMC Japan.
|
Berkman is the closest thing they have to Soichiro at the moment. Since Honda likes to appoint unconventional CEOs, I'd love to see him at the helm of HMC.
If every Honda product was as well-executed as his 2004 TL and his 2006 Si....
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