HondaFTW
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Having much positive reviews, and warmly acceptance of the community. FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. Subaru's first rear-wheeled. What would Honda answer back to the toyobaru? A revival of the pastcars? A creation of a new sportscar? So what is your thought and take on this?
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NealX
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It has recently been brought to my attention that the mention of any non Honda or Acura vehicle in a favorable light is considered out of bounds. Nor should we be so presumptuous as to offer any opinion (educated or otherwise) that should cast any doubts as to whether or not Honda should or has the wherewithal to offer said response.
Best to simply close this thread, then, or move it to the Political Lounge..?
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DCR
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rev2damoon
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Honda's response is a mixture of silence and green talk.
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JeffX
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HondaFTW wrote:
Having much positive reviews, and warmly acceptance of the community. FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. Subaru's first rear-wheeled. What would Honda answer back to the toyobaru? A revival of the pastcars? A creation of a new sportscar? So what is your thought and take on this?
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"We have a nice Certified Pre-Owned S2000 that might interest you"
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ClementZ
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Honda doesn't need to answer; the FR-S/BR-Z was not a question or something directed to Honda.
It would be nice if Honda made one, and I think they should if anyone is to take them seriously as an engineering company,
They don't NEED to answer; I don't think they're existence as a company so depends on it
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ClementZ
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ClementZ wrote:
Honda doesn't need to answer; the FR-S/BR-Z was not a question or something directed to Honda.
It would be nice if Honda made one, and I think they should if anyone is to take them seriously as an engineering company,
They don't NEED to answer; I don't think they're existence as a company so depends on it
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Their*
I hate it when I make glaringly obvious grammatical errors and don't catch them.
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Mr. Taggart
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To be FAIR to Honda, the Toyotabru is a project of both companies to share the development costs and I cannot recall very often when Honda has done this in the past. I know they gave the first generation Odessy to Isuzu for the Rodeo and some V6's go GM, but have not been big on partnering. I do not remember if the Sterling experience went over well. If Honda is tight lipped about technologies they may not want to partner with someone.
That being said, with the Toyatbru twins substantially based on existing components from other cars it would not seem too expensive to develop if they so desired. This lower costs should also increase profit margins even in lower production volumes. I would have to imagine they have quite a bit of tech laying around; the x factor has to engineering to current crash standards. I remember hearing hear how expensive the X frame on the S2000 was. I wonder if that could be re purposed.
Honda may also have their hands full given their relative size to Toyotabru. Maybe they don't feel they have the capital, engineering, or the time to do so. (Sidebar here - Honda's outlook as a stand alone company does not look good in the long term. Either they need to become a major player in the developing markets (US market going to decline due to population in next 10-20 years unless someone starts having a lot more babies or we open the floodgates to immigration. Japan population declining too.) due to declining populations in their key markets, having almost given up in Europe or accept a role as more of a niche player. If they plan on expansion to the developing markets does Honda have enough capital generated by profits to do so? If not, they will have to get it somewhere else. Or... Maybe they see the HondaJet giving them the cash to expand. If profits (key is margins) in the car business doesn't generate cash and the plane business does not, Honda becomes a small fish in a big pond (if protectionism barriers continue to come down).)
Or Honda may not believe that a rear wheel drive, light, good handling, good looking, relatively expensive car does not fit what Honda wants to be. Maybe such vehicle is considered excessive seeing its lack of 'green', 'planet saving', and 'carbon reducing' focus.
Whatever the case, it is my personal opinion that if Honda wanted to make such a vehicle they have the capacity (in all aspects) to do so right now. Look at the Hondajet. It is revolutionary it its design and capabilities. (ok, now I have to walk back the partnership stuff.. GE and Honda co-developed the engines...)
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Mr. Taggart
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Jeff wrote:
HondaFTW wrote:
Having much positive reviews, and warmly acceptance of the community. FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. Subaru's first rear-wheeled. What would Honda answer back to the toyobaru? A revival of the pastcars? A creation of a new sportscar? So what is your thought and take on this?
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"We have a nice Certified Pre-Owned S2000 that might interest you"
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I remember when the yen dropped in value and American cars were running around 2-3k more than a Honda. (early 80's?) A reporter asked Roger Smith what GM's answer was to the Honda Accord price wise and Smith responded, "We can sell you a two year old Buick."
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GoFaster
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I don't the know the ins and outs of getting a plant ready to make low-production volume cars, so the easy answer is my idea isn't cost effective. Fine, but I am not sure about that, because we are not talking about the automation involved with Civics and CR-Vs. Here goes.
The S2000 was an amazing car, so amazing that I am sure most engineers at Honda want it back. I sure do, but the two seater market is very small. Okay, make it every other year. You can have a 2012 S2000 and if you miss out, wait for the 2014 S2000.
Every two years you tweak the interior for the latest electronic technology, but the rest can be carried over pretty much.
Perhaps 2012 S2000, 2013 NSX, 2014 S2000, 2015 NSX...
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FiSH-Chan
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HondaFTW wrote:
FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. |
I really don't see how it is a revival of the '86' except they use the name only for marketing since the '86' is so popular thanks to the really stupid manga where they use black magic to drive the cars.
The car is far much more like a revival of the GT2000.
And I still haven't seen it yet it's so @%@ rare over here.
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DCR
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
That being said, with the Toyatbru twins substantially based on existing components from other cars it would not seem too expensive to develop if they so desired.
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What parts? Source?
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revvin
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DCR wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
That being said, with the Toyatbru twins substantially based on existing components from other cars it would not seem too expensive to develop if they so desired.
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What parts? Source?
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Impreza suspension bits and the fa20 minus toyota d4s should be a future impreza engine as well. Lots of cheap steel parts like the oil pan and suspension bits too. They do this and get away with it because of how damn low the engine sits. Too bad it doesn't have full vtec, a proper intake mani and another grand on the tach.
So basically this car with a honda motor would be sweet.
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DCR
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I drove a 6 speed last week. It doesn't need VTEC, trust me.
In fact, the car was so good, I can't remember my Si.
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NealX
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revvin wrote:
DCR wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
That being said, with the Toyatbru twins substantially based on existing components from other cars it would not seem too expensive to develop if they so desired.
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What parts? Source?
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So basically this car with a honda motor would be sweet.
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So until then...
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Mr. Taggart
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DCR wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
That being said, with the Toyatbru twins substantially based on existing components from other cars it would not seem too expensive to develop if they so desired.
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What parts? Source?
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DCR
From what I remember reading the engine and suspension bits were from the Subaru parts bin. I thought the steering rack was too. I think the fuel injection system is off the shelf Toyota as is the tires which are from the Prius. The transmissions are from Asin and I think they are Used in either the IS or Ex Lexuses? Lexi? Also I think the rear suspension came from the WRX and the front struts and other bits from the imprezza. Will look to see if I can find out where I read this.
Could be wrong on who made what though. If not clear my point was they were able to figure what they wanted to end up with but still use as much existing technology that they had already invested in. Sort of like the Pontiac Fiero but in this case it looks better and can go around corners.
Don't forget to post pics when your's arrives.
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Mr. Taggart
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Neal wrote:
revvin wrote:
DCR wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
That being said, with the Toyatbru twins substantially based on existing components from other cars it would not seem too expensive to develop if they so desired.
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What parts? Source?
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So basically this car with a honda motor would be sweet.
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So until then...
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Rear wheel drive, 0-60 in 6.3, good looking and good handling.
I think it is hard to begrudge it is a pretty good car.
Put on some real tires and I wonder it would handle compared to an Si. Plus a lot of people making go faster bits (SC you fielding calls yet?)
Sort of reminds me of the Nissan 240sx
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RocketRon
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DCR wrote:
I drove a 6 speed last week. It doesn't need VTEC, trust me.
In fact, the car was so good, I can't remember my Si.
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"The engine makes its peak horsepower at 7,000 rpm as it approaches a 7,400 redline, where the engine sounds wheezy. It's not helped by a "Sound Creator" that takes noise from the engine's air intake passage and transmits it into the cabin for effect. I'll take that feature in the Lexus LFA with its symphonic engine, but not in the FR-S."
"Open the AE86 Corolla throttle fully and there's little in the way of grunt down low. Stay with it, however, and a 7,600-rpm swan song awaits. At high revs the little 1.6-liter inline four-cylinder sounds better than the FR-S's 2.0-liter flat-4, which, despite an honest engineering effort, manages only tepid aural character."
"A so-called sound creator pipes engine sound into the cabin to give drivers an ego boost. We're not big fans of this ever-increasing practice but suppose it's good fun. The sound on the FR-S isn't as sweet and throaty as the one in the Hyundai Genesis Coupe, but it does put out a bit more grunt above 4000 RPM"
"Want to clean up the clutter in your new Scion FR-S or Subaru BRZ engine bay – look no further. The Dynosty sound tube delete allows you to remove the growl tube from your engine bay by providing a billet plug for the intake tube and a rubber cap for the firewall. Road testing revealed a minimal change in cabin noise." $29 + shipping ($7 shipping to cont. USA addresses)
Miss your K20, you shall.
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longhorn
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Wait for an S2000 succesor. If Honda is smart,make it not only RWD but with a back seat,or even make it as a sedan. They will sell more worldwide. Make it more a spiritual BMW 2002 succesor than the BMW 1 series is.
Or, take the Civic platform and flip it, like they are doing with the Accord platform and the NSX. Raid the parts bin to keep costs in check (notice I did not say low). Put a sexy body on top of it and watch it sell.
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FiSH-Chan
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longhorn wrote:
Wait for an S2000 succesor. If Honda is smart,make it not only RWD but with a back seat,or even make it as a sedan. They will sell more worldwide. Make it more a spiritual BMW 2002 succesor than the BMW 1 series is.
Or, take the Civic platform and flip it, like they are doing with the Accord platform and the NSX. Raid the parts bin to keep costs in check (notice I did not say low). Put a sexy body on top of it and watch it sell. |
Or they could add independant rear suspension from the Fit EV into the CR-Z, with a better engine, LSD and some more tuning + weight reduction. And it's still not going to be RWD.
Call it CR-Z Type R + KERS and then don't sell it to the USA. LOL.
If we are going to be dreaming then I am betting this is the most likely way they are taking.
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CarPhreakD
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DCR wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
That being said, with the Toyatbru twins substantially based on existing components from other cars it would not seem too expensive to develop if they so desired.
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What parts? Source?
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The chassis is a highly modified version of Subaru's current production platforms. From there, you have extremely similar suspension bits front and rear. The engine is a Subaru design with Toyota's EFI system. There's no way that Toyota/Subaru could have made a business case out of this unless they used as many parts from the corporate bin as possible.
I don't think the engine will ever be as great as a K20. But on the other hand, it doesn't need to be; the car seems to be offering a compelling "complete" package. I said multiple times that I'm looking to pick one up used!
Don't think Honda has an answer, nothing that will directly compete with it in any case. I don't think Honda needs to.. they just need to make a proper NSX and S2000 successor
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Powered by Honda
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HondaFTW wrote:
Having much positive reviews, and warmly acceptance of the community. FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. Subaru's first rear-wheeled. What would Honda answer back to the toyobaru? A revival of the pastcars? A creation of a new sportscar? So what is your thought and take on this?
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honda civic SI coupe is the answer.
Honda had no money to develop this thing. All money locked up in the RLX, NSX, and new Accord, and new RWD luxury coupe based on the HSC NSX-3 chassis.
If you want a RWD honda buy s2k and kill the FRS all day long on the twist and BLOW it away on the straight.
S2k kills the FRS and is 12 years ago. hehe.
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mobis21
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Powered by Honda wrote:
HondaFTW wrote:
Having much positive reviews, and warmly acceptance of the community. FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. Subaru's first rear-wheeled. What would Honda answer back to the toyobaru? A revival of the pastcars? A creation of a new sportscar? So what is your thought and take on this?
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Agree, the Civic Si Coupe really is a competitor. I'm not one of those must have RWD types on my daily driver. In fact, not a fan of RWD in rain and snow. If I autocrossed and such, the Subaru would be a good choice.
honda civic SI coupe is the answer.
Honda had no money to develop this thing. All money locked up in the RLX, NSX, and new Accord, and new RWD luxury coupe based on the HSC NSX-3 chassis.
If you want a RWD honda buy s2k and kill the FRS all day long on the twist and BLOW it away on the straight.
S2k kills the FRS and is 12 years ago. hehe.
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Grace141
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I think I fall in with the camp calling for a CRZ Si plus I'd add a Fit Si for good measure, sort of like the CRX Si/Civic Si combo from the late '80s. Maybe use that 1.8L ED engine with a 6spd MT.
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rev2damoon
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Powered by Honda wrote:
HondaFTW wrote:
Having much positive reviews, and warmly acceptance of the community. FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. Subaru's first rear-wheeled. What would Honda answer back to the toyobaru? A revival of the pastcars? A creation of a new sportscar? So what is your thought and take on this?
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honda civic SI coupe is the answer.
Honda had no money to develop this thing. All money locked up in the RLX, NSX, and new Accord, and new RWD luxury coupe based on the HSC NSX-3 chassis.
If you want a RWD honda buy s2k and kill the FRS all day long on the twist and BLOW it away on the straight.
S2k kills the FRS and is 12 years ago. hehe.
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PBH, the S2000 was a $35k car and made far more HP. IMO, it really doesn't make sense to discuss these two cars as if they'd be direct competition to each other.
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shingles
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Except that you can buy good condition used S2000 for the price of a new FRS. That does make it a choice and comparison point for some.
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mobis21
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Grace141 wrote:
I think I fall in with the camp calling for a CRZ Si plus I'd add a Fit Si for good measure, sort of like the CRX Si/Civic Si combo from the late '80s. Maybe use that 1.8L ED engine with a 6spd MT.
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That would work. A CRX Si is what Honda needs. And a Good four/five seater hot hatch like the old two door Civic Si. Something more along the lines of a GTI competitor again.
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DCR
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RocketRon wrote:
DCR wrote:
I drove a 6 speed last week. It doesn't need VTEC, trust me.
In fact, the car was so good, I can't remember my Si.
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"The engine makes its peak horsepower at 7,000 rpm as it approaches a 7,400 redline, where the engine sounds wheezy. It's not helped by a "Sound Creator" that takes noise from the engine's air intake passage and transmits it into the cabin for effect. I'll take that feature in the Lexus LFA with its symphonic engine, but not in the FR-S."
"Open the AE86 Corolla throttle fully and there's little in the way of grunt down low. Stay with it, however, and a 7,600-rpm swan song awaits. At high revs the little 1.6-liter inline four-cylinder sounds better than the FR-S's 2.0-liter flat-4, which, despite an honest engineering effort, manages only tepid aural character."
"A so-called sound creator pipes engine sound into the cabin to give drivers an ego boost. We're not big fans of this ever-increasing practice but suppose it's good fun. The sound on the FR-S isn't as sweet and throaty as the one in the Hyundai Genesis Coupe, but it does put out a bit more grunt above 4000 RPM"
"Want to clean up the clutter in your new Scion FR-S or Subaru BRZ engine bay – look no further. The Dynosty sound tube delete allows you to remove the growl tube from your engine bay by providing a billet plug for the intake tube and a rubber cap for the firewall. Road testing revealed a minimal change in cabin noise." $29 + shipping ($7 shipping to cont. USA addresses)
Miss your K20, you shall.
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Want me to go through and post the 3000 to 1 positive things said about the car?
I can't get the K20 with a warranty right now Ron, so what is your point?
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Mr. Taggart
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shingles wrote:
Except that you can buy good condition used S2000 for the price of a new FRS. That does make it a choice and comparison point for some.
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Except that the S2000 was purpose built; you got ultimate handling and performance and the expense of every day drive-ability and use-ability. I do not think the S2000 was very fun to spend 3 hours on the highway at 70-80MPH. Or do I think that you could stop and pick up groceries for the week or go golfing with the S2000.
The S2000 was built as a second car; it was a toy you played with when it was appropriate. The FR-S can be used as a daily driver.
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RocketRon
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DCR,
You said the BR-Z/FR-S didn't need a VTEC. I disagree. Perhaps the Sti version will address the issue as they said it might be NA! Why not wait until then?
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