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FiSH-Chan
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sadlerau wrote:
When the S2000 was released Honda priced it at a level that restricted it's appeal, but Toyrubu have been much wiser and priced their car much lower so that it's appeal is so much broader. The result? Instant sales success and here in Australia I believe there is already a waiting list that approaches 12 months!
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Wow, how low does it sell for? For one thing I can tell you it is totally opposite here in Malaysia. Too much for too little car as if the car is really AE86 reincarnate. Haven't seen one yet.
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IntegraDC5R
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Powered by Honda wrote:
No I was serious. I know you don't know much about cars and are blinded by the RWD = better thing. Its common for most "wanna be" racers or arm chair quarter backs you find on the forums.
If your worried about lap times?
Do some reading. FD2 Civic Type R Suzuka time attack Lap Times:
beating
Evo,
NSX,
GT-R
I've just educated a RWD fanboy. woooot!
oh and Owned |
This post right here has to be one of the most non-thought out posts I have read in quite awhile on any forum I frequent.
Serious question, do you even know who notyper actually is?
If craving a rear-wheel fun to drive platform makes one a fanboy, that bus is going to be over-filled in no time. The FD2R is a phenomenal car, Honda did wonders with the chassis, for it weighing what it does and still able to eek out times as it does is no small achievement. Is it the better car overall than ones you listed? Opinions will come into play obviously. On top of that, can you purchase one today? I'm not sure where you live, so maybe you can.
And if I were to tell you when I have been out on circuit and pushed around and lapped a FD2R in my lowly powered GE8 Fit when it was still basically stock, would that make my Fit a much better car with your logic?
I'm in no way a fan of the Toyboat cars, mostly stems from the company itself, but credit where credit is due. What Subaru and Toyboat have done is hopefully energized the rest of the car world into producing somewhat low-cost fun to drive cars, be it FF, FR or 4WD. I know if I were to pick up one of these, I would be looking into brand new fenders and eliminating that hideous attachment in the fender. For me it just makes the car really stupid looking. What were the designers actually thinking about? Maybe I'm in the minority on this, if so be it, just can't look past that for some reason.
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superchg2
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IntegraDC5R wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
No I was serious. I know you don't know much about cars and are blinded by the RWD = better thing. Its common for most "wanna be" racers or arm chair quarter backs you find on the forums.
If your worried about lap times?
Do some reading. FD2 Civic Type R Suzuka time attack Lap Times:
beating
Evo,
NSX,
GT-R
I've just educated a RWD fanboy. woooot!
oh and Owned |
This post right here has to be one of the most non-thought out posts I have read in quite awhile on any forum I frequent.
Serious question, do you even know who notyper actually is?
If craving a rear-wheel fun to drive platform makes one a fanboy, that bus is going to be over-filled in no time. The FD2R is a phenomenal car, Honda did wonders with the chassis, for it weighing what it does and still able to eek out times as it does is no small achievement. Is it the better car overall than ones you listed? Opinions will come into play obviously. On top of that, can you purchase one today? I'm not sure where you live, so maybe you can.
And if I were to tell you when I have been out on circuit and pushed around and lapped a FD2R in my lowly powered GE8 Fit when it was still basically stock, would that make my Fit a much better car with your logic?
I'm in no way a fan of the Toyboat cars, mostly stems from the company itself, but credit where credit is due. What Subaru and Toyboat have done is hopefully energized the rest of the car world into producing somewhat low-cost fun to drive cars, be it FF, FR or 4WD. I know if I were to pick up one of these, I would be looking into brand new fenders and eliminating that hideous attachment in the fender. For me it just makes the car really stupid looking. What were the designers actually thinking about? Maybe I'm in the minority on this, if so be it, just can't look past that for some reason.
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Check his Profile. pbh has left the Temple!
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owequitit
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longhorn wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
DCR wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
That being said, with the Toyatbru twins substantially based on existing components from other cars it would not seem too expensive to develop if they so desired.
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What parts? Source?
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The chassis is a highly modified version of Subaru's current production platforms. From there, you have extremely similar suspension bits front and rear. The engine is a Subaru design with Toyota's EFI system. There's no way that Toyota/Subaru could have made a business case out of this unless they used as many parts from the corporate bin as possible.
I don't think the engine will ever be as great as a K20. But on the other hand, it doesn't need to be; the car seems to be offering a compelling "complete" package. I said multiple times that I'm looking to pick one up used!
Don't think Honda has an answer, nothing that will directly compete with it in any case. I don't think Honda needs to.. they just need to make a proper NSX and S2000 successor
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Which platform from Subie? All of their platforms have their motors situated east/west not north/south. Now are you saying they took a FWD platform and tweeked it to a RWD platform? If thats the case,then I am more impressed.
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Subarus have mostly always had a north/south FWD layout...
The engine is mounted longitudinally, because it makes it easier to implement AWD. Even our '83 Subaru GL wagon was North/South.
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owequitit
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DCR wrote:
I stopped by the dealer on the way to dinner today and snapped some pics of the Hot Lava demo they have.
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I saw my first one in Oak Creek Canyon yesteday, parked on the side of the road. It is a great looking car overall. I agree with Shawn about the wheels, as that was about the only complaint I could muster. I don't like the Scion as much as the BRZ in the looks department, but that is just a detail preference.
Overall though, this is a great looking little car, and the fact that Toyota/Subaru even bothered building an affordable no excuses sports car is going to do a lot to energize the "regular" models. I wish Honda still understood that.
Personally, I like my orange Si, and I actually like this color in pictures, although I would have to see it in person to make up my mind... I understand it is not for everyone though.
The only things I would have to rectify on this car other than tires/wheels, would be to blackhouse the head and tails. They don't look agressive enough with all that chrome in there. Damn, what can I say, I guess I have to modify everything a little bit...sigh.
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RocketRon
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330R wrote:
DCR wrote:
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HOT!
Hey, I love my '11 Si-dan. Eight months into ownership and I still can't get enough of the K20Z3's sounds, responses, power, VTEC thrills, and nearly 30mpg in 75% city driving. It exceeds any and all expectations I had going in. Overall, it's the best daily driver I've ever had. The engine is fantastic.
The BR-Z doesn't have the K20 sorcery, but it's a tidy-sized Japanese FR with a low CoG, affordably priced, and it's here, now, at a time when the future for sporting cars has looked bleak and dim. I'm very glad the 86 cars are here. It doesn't make me appreciate my Si any less, because I wasn't shopping for a sports car.
BTW Shawn, I'd love to hear anything you know about any differences in the '11 Si K20Z3. I've seen the TOV dyno comparisons but never really seemed to find anything concrete about why the '11 was the strongest Z3. That did factor into why I sought one out, though.
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DCR,
Nice! These type of blues change according to lighting and weather. One could say they are iridescent colors.
330R,
Is this your 1st Si? I'm asking because I've owned an 08 previously and I find the 11 is more agressive. Hoping someone else has driven different years to get some input. I'm thinking it might be a different ECU tune. I'm dreaming that they put a surplus FD2 Type R K20 in there LOL
Finally, PHB *sigh*,
Wrong way with the wrong dude...SC has been doing this for years and he knows what he's talking about.
Posting this could have been more efficient (not 100% sure about the validity of this list) :
Suzuka, Japan (5807 m)
Lap times (20)
Pos Make / Model Time Speed (km/h) Year Power (hp) / Weight (kg) Driven by
1. Ferrari F40 2:25.26 144 '87 479 / 1270
2. Ferrari F50 2:26.52 143 '95 520 / 1270
3. Porsche Carrera GT 2:28.42 141 '03 612 / 1380
4. Porsche 911 GT2 2:29.15 140 '95 430 / 1290
5. Porsche 911 Turbo 3.6 2:31.16 138 '95 408 / 1502
6. Honda NSX 3.2 2:32.54 137 '97 280 / 1388
7. Lamborghini Diablo 2:32.98 137 '95 492 / 1575
8. Lamborghini Diablo SV 2:32.98 137 '97 519 / 1590
9. Ferrari F355 2:33.25 136 '95 380 / 1350
10. Honda NSX-R 2:34.08 136 '95 274 / 1281
11. Honda NSX Type-S Zero 2:34.69 135 '97 290 / 1280
12. Honda Civic Type-R JDM 2:35.20 135 '07 225 / 1270
13. Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 2:36.26 134 '98 280 / 1666
14. Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VI 2:36.50 134 '99 280 / 1384
15. Mazda RX-7 2:37.26 133 '93 255 / 1281
16. Ferrari 550 Maranello 2:38.50 132 '96 486 / 1690
17. Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 V-Spec 2:39.56 131 '99 280 / 1560
18. Honda Civic Type-R 2:49.17 124 '97 185 / 1073
19. Honda NSX 3.0 2:50.00 123 '91 274 / 1362
20. Mercedes E 350 2:52.00 122 '05 272 / 1580
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330R
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RocketRon wrote:
330R, Is this your 1st Si? I'm asking because I've owned an 08 previously and I find the 11 is more agressive. Hoping someone else has driven different years to get some input. I'm thinking it might be a different ECU tune. I'm dreaming that they put a surplus FD2 Type R K20 in there LOL |
Yeah, it's my first 8th gen ('06-'11). I've had a little seat time in a few others, both coupe and sedan, but unfortunately not really enough to clearly remember them and make comparisons. I took an '07 Si coupe on a very spirited drive through some winding country roads. It might have seemed faster than my '11, but then again it may have been the mood I was in that day! :p
I don't really tell people this (except you guys now, I guess), but I sort of envisioned the engineers looking over at a stockpile of surplus FD2 K20 parts, looking at the calendar, hearing about the impending conclusion of Type-R production and the K20 series, thinking about us poor North Americans who never had a Civic Type-R and for no good reason... and giving us, them, and the K20R a last hurrah (and maybe a dirty digit to Judge Ito and Howie Mendel) by ringing us up a hot-cammed, high-domed, jailbroken madman.
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330R
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
When the S2000 was released Honda priced it at a level that restricted it's appeal, but Toyrubu have been much wiser and priced their car much lower so that it's appeal is so much broader. The result? Instant sales success and here in Australia I believe there is already a waiting list that approaches 12 months!
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Wow, how low does it sell for? For one thing I can tell you it is totally opposite here in Malaysia. Too much for too little car as if the car is really AE86 reincarnate. Haven't seen one yet.
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From FT86 Club Australia/New Zealand regional forum:
We are pleased to announce that the 86 will officially go on sale on June 18th. The 86 GTS model will be priced from $35,490 RRP / $39,468 Drive Away**
Toyota 86 pricing#
86 GT manual – $29,990
86 GT automatic – $32,490
86 GTS manual – $35,490
86 GTS automatic – $37,990 |
According to this article the S2000 cost $73,590 in Australia when it was announced that it would be discontinued.
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Price
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notyper wrote:
Well, finally an excuse to delete his ass. Will wonders never cease. Welcome to the new and improved notyper, now with 50% less tolerance and 100% more F*** You!
Time for a beer.
SC
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I'll drink to that. Thanks for the laugh.
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Mr. Taggart
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IntegraDC5R wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
Except that the S2000 was purpose built; you got ultimate handling and performance and the expense of every day drive-ability and use-ability. I do not think the S2000 was very fun to spend 3 hours on the highway at 70-80MPH. Or do I think that you could stop and pick up groceries for the week or go golfing with the S2000.
The S2000 was built as a second car; it was a toy you played with when it was appropriate. The FR-S can be used as a daily driver.
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When I was in Guam with my AP2 and went to the grocery store, every single time the bagger was in disbelief that my groceries fit. It took good puzzle building skills, but not once did I have a problem and I wasn't just buying a couple days worth of stuff, usually at least 2 weeks worth for 2 people.
Mine was my daily driver as well.
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An exception to the rule does not mean it is not true.
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sadlerau
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Wow, how low does it sell for? For one thing I can tell you it is totally opposite here in Malaysia. Too much for too little car as if the car is really AE86 reincarnate. Haven't seen one yet.
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Website says $33,500 "drive away". Which puts it near on $6,000 less than the price of a CRZ!!
Honda had better cherish the handfull they have sold so far [I have seen 2 on the roads since they started selling last December!] - can't see them selling many more :(
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IntegraDC5R
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330R wrote:
RocketRon wrote:
330R, Is this your 1st Si? I'm asking because I've owned an 08 previously and I find the 11 is more agressive. Hoping someone else has driven different years to get some input. I'm thinking it might be a different ECU tune. I'm dreaming that they put a surplus FD2 Type R K20 in there LOL |
Yeah, it's my first 8th gen ('06-'11). I've had a little seat time in a few others, both coupe and sedan, but unfortunately not really enough to clearly remember them and make comparisons. I took an '07 Si coupe on a very spirited drive through some winding country roads. It might have seemed faster than my '11, but then again it may have been the mood I was in that day! :p
I don't really tell people this (except you guys now, I guess), but I sort of envisioned the engineers looking over at a stockpile of surplus FD2 K20 parts, looking at the calendar, hearing about the impending conclusion of Type-R production and the K20 series, thinking about us poor North Americans who never had a Civic Type-R and for no good reason... and giving us, them, and the K20R a last hurrah (and maybe a dirty digit to Judge Ito and Howie Mendel) by ringing us up a hot-cammed, high-domed, jailbroken madman.
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It seems they did that for the EuroR hatch here in Japan, they are claimed to be just 201ps, the watered down K, but they are putting down that amount stock on a roller type dyno the few times I have seen. So it is possible.
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330R
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sadlerau wrote:
Website says $33,500 "drive away". Which puts it near on $6,000 less than the price of a CRZ!!
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HAHA!
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330R
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IntegraDC5R wrote:
It seems they did that for the EuroR hatch here in Japan, they are claimed to be just 201ps, the watered down K, but they are putting down that amount stock on a roller type dyno the few times I have seen. So it is possible.
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Ah, thanks for that. I hadn't heard any dyno results of the FN2 before, just that it was close to the FG2/FA5 Civic Si's K20Z3. I could really see the EuroR for the Japanese market receiving some "K20R" hardware.
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DCR
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owequitit wrote:
I saw my first one in Oak Creek Canyon yesteday, parked on the side of the road. It is a great looking car overall. I agree with Shawn about the wheels, as that was about the only complaint I could muster. I don't like the Scion as much as the BRZ in the looks department, but that is just a detail preference.
Overall though, this is a great looking little car, and the fact that Toyota/Subaru even bothered building an affordable no excuses sports car is going to do a lot to energize the "regular" models. I wish Honda still understood that.
Personally, I like my orange Si, and I actually like this color in pictures, although I would have to see it in person to make up my mind... I understand it is not for everyone though.
The only things I would have to rectify on this car other than tires/wheels, would be to blackhouse the head and tails. They don't look agressive enough with all that chrome in there. Damn, what can I say, I guess I have to modify everything a little bit...sigh.
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The orange on the Si at least has more depth to it...this one is just a bit too flat. Where the Si doesn't have high red seat accents, the FR-S does, and it clashes pretty bad through the windows.
"Overall though, this is a great looking little car, and the fact that Toyota/Subaru even bothered building an affordable no excuses sports car is going to do a lot to energize the "regular" models. I wish Honda still understood that."
I guess something could be said about that...seeing as I had to google search where the hell the Scion dealer even was in town.
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sadlerau
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330R wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Website says $33,500 "drive away". Which puts it near on $6,000 less than the price of a CRZ!!
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HAHA!
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The really sad part - if they could fit the CRZ drivetrain/suspension in a Fit and sell it for a $3000 premium over the current top model here in Australia [meaning about $26,000] I'm sure they would have trouble keeping up with demand. Such a vehicle would compete with the Polo GTi [about $31,000 in 7 speed guise] in the market place.
On a different note, I cannot believe how many Golf GTis I am seeing on our roads, they have become almost a plague!!
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IntegraDC5R
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sadlerau wrote:
Website says $33,500 "drive away". Which puts it near on $6,000 less than the price of a CRZ!!
Honda had better cherish the handfull they have sold so far [I have seen 2 on the roads since they started selling last December!] - can't see them selling many more :(
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Is Honda Australia just marking the price up that much for a CR-Z or what? Which model of the new Toyboat is that for A$33500 and is that the top model? The prices here in Japan range starting at ¥1998000 for a race base model to upwards of ¥3000000. In US$ that is $25600~38500. Whereas the CR-Z is priced up to ¥2510000 or US$32180. I know cars don't follow currency rates around the world, but Honda Australia is really dicking over their customers if they are charging almost A$40000. Especially with the US$ and A$ being equal on the currency market.
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The Legend
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In a couple of years I think Honda's response will be something like this... I can picture it !
- slightly shorter and narrower than FRS/BRZ
- MR lay out based...
- highly tuned L-series engine + hybrid (batteries will be placed front or center) for 50/50 weight distribution
- SH-AWD 2. rear drive + front electric drive
- May be the first to employ Twin Lever Steering.
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Nick GravesX
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sadlerau wrote:
FiSH-Chan wrote:
Wow, how low does it sell for? For one thing I can tell you it is totally opposite here in Malaysia. Too much for too little car as if the car is really AE86 reincarnate. Haven't seen one yet.
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Website says $33,500 "drive away". Which puts it near on $6,000 less than the price of a CRZ!!
Honda had better cherish the handfull they have sold so far [I have seen 2 on the roads since they started selling last December!] - can't see them selling many more :(
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Toyobarus are £24-27K and CRzzzzzs are £19-24K so it's about right.
I've get to get my hands on one, but SC's review is good enough for me; it's a proper, bespoke sports car so has a proper driving position and the driveline is close enough to the S2000 for it to be a good thing.
The CRZ has a terrible driving position & bad visibility; when will mfrs. learn you cannot make a coupe out of an MPV (Honda used to have perfect driving positions, but have forgotten everything they once knew) plus it's gutless and has crude suspension.
It's gone very quiet on the iCF version (which would have made it the same price as a BRZ!) and I wonder why...
Since most mfr.s now have Honda's GM-style cynicism, the 8 6 represents the only hope for sensible FUN sports coupes. Not forgetting Mazda's great little roadster, too - it deserves a mention.
BRZ deserves to do very well indeed.
The CRZ is cute styling & no substance. A shame, as there are a lot of good points trying to get out. But it's probably too late now.
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sadlerau
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330R wrote:
From FT86 Club Australia/New Zealand regional forum:
We are pleased to announce that the 86 will officially go on sale on June 18th. The 86 GTS model will be priced from $35,490 RRP / $39,468 Drive Away**
Toyota 86 pricing#
86 GT manual – $29,990
86 GT automatic – $32,490
86 GTS manual – $35,490
86 GTS automatic – $37,990 |
According to this article the S2000 cost $73,590 in Australia when it was announced that it would be discontinued.
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Those prices don't include state taxes :) Yep the S2000 pricing is correct for the time - but the Aussie dollar was a lot weaker in 2009 - something around US80c to our AUS$. So the S2000 in today's money would be closer to $60K but still a chasm from mid 30ks! Is the S2000 twice the car the 86 is?
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sadlerau
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Nick Graves wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
FiSH-Chan wrote:
Wow, how low does it sell for? For one thing I can tell you it is totally opposite here in Malaysia. Too much for too little car as if the car is really AE86 reincarnate. Haven't seen one yet.
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Website says $33,500 "drive away". Which puts it near on $6,000 less than the price of a CRZ!!
Honda had better cherish the handfull they have sold so far [I have seen 2 on the roads since they started selling last December!] - can't see them selling many more :(
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Toyobarus are £24-27K and CRzzzzzs are £19-24K so it's about right.
I've get to get my hands on one, but SC's review is good enough for me; it's a proper, bespoke sports car so has a proper driving position and the driveline is close enough to the S2000 for it to be a good thing.
The CRZ has a terrible driving position & bad visibility; when will mfrs. learn you cannot make a coupe out of an MPV (Honda used to have perfect driving positions, but have forgotten everything they once knew) plus it's gutless and has crude suspension.
It's gone very quiet on the iCF version (which would have made it the same price as a BRZ!) and I wonder why...
Since most mfr.s now have Honda's GM-style cynicism, the 8 6 represents the only hope for sensible FUN sports coupes. Not forgetting Mazda's great little roadster, too - it deserves a mention.
BRZ deserves to do very well indeed.
The CRZ is cute styling & no substance. A shame, as there are a lot of good points trying to get out. But it's probably too late now.
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Nick your comments on the CRZ are most interesting, and confusing! I have taken one for a cruise on city streets and I found it engaging. The driving position reminded me of a CRX.
Australia's well respected Wheels Magazine, which awarded the CR-Z it's Car of The Year Award for 2012 wrote
"is as brilliant to drive as it is superbly clean". They wax lyrical about it's handling/ride compromise saying it matches the very best Europeans in it's handling dynamics, even on our less than ordinary country hwys and by-ways? Could Honda have sent an up-market spec'd CR-Z to Australia compared with most other markets? And keep in mind Australian magazines have been very luke warm to Honda for a number of years now.
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Nick GravesX
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sadlerau wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
FiSH-Chan wrote:
Wow, how low does it sell for? For one thing I can tell you it is totally opposite here in Malaysia. Too much for too little car as if the car is really AE86 reincarnate. Haven't seen one yet.
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Website says $33,500 "drive away". Which puts it near on $6,000 less than the price of a CRZ!!
Honda had better cherish the handfull they have sold so far [I have seen 2 on the roads since they started selling last December!] - can't see them selling many more :(
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Toyobarus are £24-27K and CRzzzzzs are £19-24K so it's about right.
I've get to get my hands on one, but SC's review is good enough for me; it's a proper, bespoke sports car so has a proper driving position and the driveline is close enough to the S2000 for it to be a good thing.
The CRZ has a terrible driving position & bad visibility; when will mfrs. learn you cannot make a coupe out of an MPV (Honda used to have perfect driving positions, but have forgotten everything they once knew) plus it's gutless and has crude suspension.
It's gone very quiet on the iCF version (which would have made it the same price as a BRZ!) and I wonder why...
Since most mfr.s now have Honda's GM-style cynicism, the 8 6 represents the only hope for sensible FUN sports coupes. Not forgetting Mazda's great little roadster, too - it deserves a mention.
BRZ deserves to do very well indeed.
The CRZ is cute styling & no substance. A shame, as there are a lot of good points trying to get out. But it's probably too late now.
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Nick your comments on the CRZ are most interesting, and confusing! I have taken one for a cruise on city streets and I found it engaging. The driving position reminded me of a CRX.
Australia's well respected Wheels Magazine, which awarded the CR-Z it's Car of The Year Award for 2012 wrote
"is as brilliant to drive as it is superbly clean". They wax lyrical about it's handling/ride compromise saying it matches the very best Europeans in it's handling dynamics, even on our less than ordinary country hwys and by-ways? Could Honda have sent an up-market spec'd CR-Z to Australia compared with most other markets? And keep in mind Australian magazines have been very luke warm to Honda for a number of years now.
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Wheels IS respected, but I cannot see it myself. The ED Civics had a very low scuttle & seat height, so building a coupe was very easy. It doesn't work in a Jizz and I couldn't see adequately well out of it (the steering wheel has to be set almost vertical - like a milk float) and thus would be unable to drive it fast. That's a criticism I've got of most moderns (the Scirocco is almost as bad) and maybe the journos need to drive some older cars to gain some (any) perspective. It may ne the yUK's terrible, narrow, windy roads just don't work for these cars. I'm not having a go at Wheels specifically; most reviews seem to overlook a lot of glaring errors in modern cars and I find myself ignoring them more often these days.
Partly, the problem is, we have a Civic EK4 which does everything brilliantly well; packaging, visibility, ergonomics, fun factor - and is quick. The passenger side ride is pretty intolreable too (I don't know why it seems so much better from the driver's seat - the Evora displays the same quirk!) but the other qualities compensate. It's proving impossible to find a car that's not worse than the old Civic. It's getting a bit frustrating, actually.
I cannot help thinking the CRZ would actually be quite good if they produced an Si with a few minor tweaks, but it's not easy to fix the ergonomic flaws. I suspect that at the same money as an Si, the BRZ ought to be a more complete package. The only decider may be what engine the Si gets and whether it's nicer than the Subie unit.
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WongKN
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Well, it's now here in Malaysia -officially- as part of the official Toyota line-up.
Toyota is blatantly hyping on how the FR-S is related to the legendary AE86. They -know- the reputation of the AE86 and they are eager to tell all the enthusiasts that this new FR-S is indeed the modern day AE86.
Contrast this to how Honda tippy-toe'd and wishy-washied with the CR-Z when it was launched. It is NOT a sports car. It is not even supposed to be sporty. It is NOT an incarnation of the CR-X. They are not related. It's neither here nor there. Way to kill off what has the potential to be a very good car.
Lesson 1 to Honda. From Toyota. On how to really market a car. Of course it helps tremendously that Toyota went all the way (the proper way) with the FR-S.
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DCR
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Honda is absolutely horrible at protecting the brand and heritage that they have built. It is almost as if they are embarrassed of it.
For those who haven't yet had a chance to get in an FR-S or BRZ, trust me...once you do, you will get it. Once you take in the sum of parts, you can see the pure genius behind how they approached the car. If you miss the look/feel/emotion of Japanese cars that may have owned in the past, here is your chance to smile again.
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FiSH-Chan
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WongKN wrote:
Toyota is blatantly hyping on how the FR-S is related to the legendary AE86. They -know- the reputation of the AE86 and they are eager to tell all the enthusiasts that this new FR-S is indeed the modern day AE86.
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This is one thing that really bugs me. Does anyone else really think it is modern day ae86 and they feel alright with that advertisement. It is Toyota's step to making sportscars again, yes, and it is a good effort, yes.. but the marketing is just screaming so fake to me and is just going for the drift crowd and like 18 year old kids... Looks nothing like the 86 and actually too expensive for us too.
I was actually glad the CRZ was not marketed as a CRX reincarnation, whatever there is to let people make the connection themself for those who know, but is a new direction for unknown territory. But yes, they are seriously lacking some marketing skills, but bringing up the old model and claiming is is the new one I feel is not the right way either..
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rev2damoon
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WongKN wrote:
Well, it's now here in Malaysia -officially- as part of the official Toyota line-up.
Toyota is blatantly hyping on how the FR-S is related to the legendary AE86. They -know- the reputation of the AE86 and they are eager to tell all the enthusiasts that this new FR-S is indeed the modern day AE86.
Contrast this to how Honda tippy-toe'd and wishy-washied with the CR-Z when it was launched. It is NOT a sports car. It is not even supposed to be sporty. It is NOT an incarnation of the CR-X. They are not related. It's neither here nor there. Way to kill off what has the potential to be a very good car.
Lesson 1 to Honda. From Toyota. On how to really market a car. Of course it helps tremendously that Toyota went all the way (the proper way) with the FR-S.
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LOL....I love Honda, but they are totally clueless. They get schooled by Toyota so badly in marketing, it isn't even funny. Be it with green technology or sporting and performance. It really doesn't matter. On top of that they seem held bent on washing away their past, as if it were some leprous sickness.
Toyota snares the green crowd with the Prius which all but made the Insight irrelevant. Now Honda's kicking it's enthusiast following to the curb and Toyota comes along and says, "Sweeet...we'll take those, thank you." That gives them the mainstream, the green crowd AND the enthusiasts all in their pockets.
As a Honda enthusiast, the FR-S/BR-Z (probably BR-Z) would be at the top of my list to replace my 8th gen Si, but having plans to start a family I'll probably have to seek something more family-oriented.
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DCR
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I remember reading that the car was inspired by the heritage models by Toyota:
| The car says Akio Toyoda is inspired in part from the vintage Toyota 2000 GT and Corolla Levin AE86. ‘When the Toyota 2000 GT was built, I was eleven years old – and I loved it. I said: “I want to drive something like this when I grow up”. My dream came true when I drove a 2000 GT in a vintage car rally. That was a really great experience. I want young people to feel those same desires when they see a new Toyota sports car. I want to transfer the thrill of the race track to our vehicles, and make driving fun and exciting for our customers.’ Akio Toyoda, President of Toyota Motor Corporation. |
Honda does draw from the CRX for the CR-Z, which isn't a bad thing to be inspired by what you used to build:
http://automobiles.honda.com/cr-z/heritage.aspx
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NealX
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^Certainly our national auto media is responsible for much of the referencing to the CRX. I don't recall how much during the prototype presentation if they (Honda PR) referenced the CRX, if at all. Seems like they did, though...
But I'm glad Honda did not go that route. Honestly, I think the marketing people are soooo out of touch with Honda Hertitage that I doubt they would have had the acuity to be reverent enough to the CRX without deeply offending those who recall what the CRX was about (or at least what it's become in our aged, fond recollections).
And I don't know enough about Toyota heritage to comment on the 86 either way. What I do appreciate though, is the acknowledgment of any heritage at all. They may well be showing more "lineage" than is due, particularly in the "family tree" themed print ad I just saw. Perhaps a bit too "direct?"
Speaking of lack of heritage: Want to see the ultimate memory wipe? Visit the Acura media site archives and do a search for "Type R."
http://hondanews.com/channels/acura-automobiles/archive
It's like MIB 4 over there...
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FiSH-Chan
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DCR wrote:
| The car says Akio Toyoda is inspired in part from the vintage Toyota 2000 GT and Corolla Levin AE86. ‘When the Toyota 2000 GT was built, I was eleven years old – and I loved it. I said: “I want to drive something like this when I grow up”. My dream came true when I drove a 2000 GT in a vintage car rally. |
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I realize the inspiration, but why not show both the GT2000 and the ae86 with the FR-S ( i won't call it the gt86 anymore) in the middle or something and say its inspired by those. It's more like a GT2000 and less like the ae86. IMO it's only there because it's so popular with people who don't know much with cars and more about reading manga and watching cartoon, well those in this region at least. at myr 234k (81kUSD) this type of people can't afford it too.
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DCR
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Manually dig in the 2000 archives, you will see it. Their site search indexing sucks, which is why you can't search for it:
02/01/2001 - Torrance, Calif. INTRODUCTION
The limited-edition Integra Type R Sports Coupe has been developed to maximize the sporty car's dynamic capabilities and further emphasize Acura's belief that driving is its own reward. There were three primary targets during the development process: performance, handling and control, and an exciting driving experience. Engineering teams, which included racing veterans from the Formula One ranks, incorporated the dynamic essence of true race cars while developing the Type R, and thoroughly carried the "driving pleasure" theme through every stage of development. Not surprisingly, a heavy emphasis was placed on the Type R's performance on the racetrack during development, all in an effort to deliver an exciting car with exceptional acceleration, braking and handling capabilities.
CONCEPTS AND GOALS
The Integra Type R Sports Coupe was designed to achieve:
•Quick response and acceleration through its high-revving VTEC engine
•Outstanding cornering response thanks, in part, to a lower center of gravity and track-tuned suspension to enable linear cornering with minimal understeer
•Enhanced braking performance with larger-capacity, fade-resistant brakes designed to withstand severe racetrack test conditions
•Unique styling and exclusive features such as a Type R-exclusive rear wing spoiler, 5-bolt alloy wheels and Type R graphics
OVERVIEW
The limited production Type R model first joined the Acura Integra line-up in 1997 and was an overnight sensation. Like its fellow Integra models, the Type R features numerous technological innovations that maximize performance and handling, and provide high levels of safety, durability and efficiency. However, it goes a step further by embodying the spirit and technological achievements demonstrated in Formula One racing. Thus, it is clear that engineers placed a heavy emphasis on the performance characteristics of the Type R during development.
Key performance features that differentiate the Type R include:
•195-horsepower, 1.8-liter, dual overhead cam, 16-valve VTEC inline 4-cylinder engine that is among the highest rated normally aspirated mass-produced engines in terms of horsepower per liter
•Hand-polished intake and exhaust ports and single-port intake manifold
•An exhaust system with a larger diameter to allow larger volume flow
•Overall vehicle weight reduced by 33 lbs. (15 kg)
•Torque-sensitive helical limited slip differential
•Lower overall vehicle height (by 15 mm) and aerodynamic refinements that result in 30% less lift (Cl) and 1% less drag (Cd)
•Racetrack-calibrated suspension and high-performance tires
•Larger disk brakes with performance-oriented calipers
•Refined Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS)
•Reinforced unit body structure
A number of other features were added to heighten the sporty appeal of the Type R, including:
•Chin spoiler, wing-type rear spoiler, and body-colored side sills
•Lightweight aluminum alloy wheels
•Sport-style seats
•Leather-wrapped steering wheel and aluminum shifter knob
•Special serial number plate affixed to the center console
•Carbon fiber-like instrumentation design with amber illumination
•"Type R" graphics
In the true spirit of racing, a select number of comfort and convenience features on the Integra Type R have been eliminated in an effort to minimize the vehicle's overall weight. These include items such as a sunroof, vanity mirrors and cruise control. Other items that have been eliminated for weight considerations include dashboard insulator, transmission mount, drive shaft and shifter dynamic damper, and melt-sheet for the floor stamping.
Key safety features of the Type R include:
•Standard driver's and front passenger's Supplemental Restraint System (SRS) air bags on all models
•3-point seat belts
•Projector beam headlights
•Front and rear crumple zones
•Side-impact protection
Like other 2001 Integra models, Type R's standard features include:
•105,000-mile tune-up intervals
•A vehicle immobilizer anti-theft system
•An On-board Vapor Recovery System -- two years earlier than required by regulation
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