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DCR
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Did you drive the FR-S?
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Powered by Honda
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rev2damoon wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
HondaFTW wrote:
Having much positive reviews, and warmly acceptance of the community. FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. Subaru's first rear-wheeled. What would Honda answer back to the toyobaru? A revival of the pastcars? A creation of a new sportscar? So what is your thought and take on this?
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honda civic SI coupe is the answer.
Honda had no money to develop this thing. All money locked up in the RLX, NSX, and new Accord, and new RWD luxury coupe based on the HSC NSX-3 chassis.
If you want a RWD honda buy s2k and kill the FRS all day long on the twist and BLOW it away on the straight.
S2k kills the FRS and is 12 years ago. hehe.
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PBH, the S2000 was a $35k car and made far more HP. IMO, it really doesn't make sense to discuss these two cars as if they'd be direct competition to each other.
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Well I can get a mint or low km s2k now for about 10k cheaper then a shitty Toyota.
I never drove the fr-s but, do I need to drive a 91 geo metro to know the s2k drives better? no I dont need to. Same apply.
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BachelorFrog
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Just because you hate Toyota that doesnt mean every single Toyota is shitty.
Grow up...
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NealX
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Powered by Honda wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
HondaFTW wrote:
Having much positive reviews, and warmly acceptance of the community. FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. Subaru's first rear-wheeled. What would Honda answer back to the toyobaru? A revival of the pastcars? A creation of a new sportscar? So what is your thought and take on this?
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honda civic SI coupe is the answer.
Honda had no money to develop this thing. All money locked up in the RLX, NSX, and new Accord, and new RWD luxury coupe based on the HSC NSX-3 chassis.
If you want a RWD honda buy s2k and kill the FRS all day long on the twist and BLOW it away on the straight.
S2k kills the FRS and is 12 years ago. hehe.
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PBH, the S2000 was a $35k car and made far more HP. IMO, it really doesn't make sense to discuss these two cars as if they'd be direct competition to each other.
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Well I can get a mint or low km s2k now for about 10k cheaper then a shitty Toyota.
I never drove the fr-s but, do I need to drive a 91 geo metro to know the s2k drives better? no I dont need to. Same apply.
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I think you can be better than this. Perhaps powered by Something Greater?
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Colin
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HondaFTW wrote:
Having much positive reviews, and warmly acceptance of the community. FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. Subaru's first rear-wheeled. What would Honda answer back to the toyobaru? A revival of the pastcars? A creation of a new sportscar? So what is your thought and take on this?
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These things are cyclical. What was Toyota's answer to the S2000 (back in 1999)? What was Honda's answer to the MR-2 Turbo back in 1991?
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NSXforever
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Powered by Honda wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
HondaFTW wrote:
Having much positive reviews, and warmly acceptance of the community. FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. Subaru's first rear-wheeled. What would Honda answer back to the toyobaru? A revival of the pastcars? A creation of a new sportscar? So what is your thought and take on this?
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honda civic SI coupe is the answer.
Honda had no money to develop this thing. All money locked up in the RLX, NSX, and new Accord, and new RWD luxury coupe based on the HSC NSX-3 chassis.
If you want a RWD honda buy s2k and kill the FRS all day long on the twist and BLOW it away on the straight.
S2k kills the FRS and is 12 years ago. hehe.
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PBH, the S2000 was a $35k car and made far more HP. IMO, it really doesn't make sense to discuss these two cars as if they'd be direct competition to each other.
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Well I can get a mint or low km s2k now for about 10k cheaper then a shitty Toyota.
I never drove the fr-s but, do I need to drive a 91 geo metro to know the s2k drives better? no I dont need to. Same apply.
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Wow :( The FRS/BRZ has been hailed as one of the best sports cars made by just about every expert reviewer. I guess they have no idea what they are talking about lol.
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The Legend
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HondaFTW wrote:
Having much positive reviews, and warmly acceptance of the community. FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. Subaru's first rear-wheeled. What would Honda answer back to the toyobaru? A revival of the pastcars? A creation of a new sportscar? So what is your thought and take on this?
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2012 Civic SI coupe is the only practical answer.
And it's only a couple of grand cheaper than FRS/BRZ @ MSRP... the MSRP difference could be better spent on coilvers and brakes.
The K24 is superior to FA20 in all important aspects except packaging. Unlike FA20 the K24 has broad torque + VTEC, and FA20 has a torque dip in the mid RPM range . At stock 7100 RPMs max the K24 may be too low for some, but you're just $400 away to uncork that up to 7,600 RPM and eliminate rev-hang (rev hang is also found in 8th gen SI) by using Hondata flash.
The VTEC in k24 may not be the complete version found in K20, but it still blows the FA20 in torque... and not to mention it still has a VTEC! Think of the current K24 as the modern version of the H22 found in Prelude Type SH.
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The Legend
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Also, Toyota has a habit of making poor man's version of the actual & genuine and taking cues from it.
Let's see here:
2nd gen MR2 = poor man's Ferrari 335
3rd gen MR2 = poor man's Porsche Boxer
and now
86/FRS/BRZ = poor man's Porsche Cayman... Toyota engineers said so!
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DCR
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The Legend wrote:
HondaFTW wrote:
Having much positive reviews, and warmly acceptance of the community. FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. Subaru's first rear-wheeled. What would Honda answer back to the toyobaru? A revival of the pastcars? A creation of a new sportscar? So what is your thought and take on this?
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2012 Civic SI coupe is the only practical answer.
And it's only a couple of grand cheaper than FRS/BRZ @ MSRP... the MSRP difference could be better spent on coilvers and brakes.
The K24 is superior to FA20 in all important aspects except packaging. Unlike FA20 the K24 has broad torque + VTEC, and FA20 has a torque dip in the mid RPM range . At stock 7100 RPMs max the K24 may be too low for some, but you're just $400 away to uncork that up to 7,600 RPM and eliminate rev-hang (rev hang is also found in 8th gen SI) by using Hondata flash.
The VTEC in k24 may not be the complete version found in K20, but it still blows the FA20 in torque... and not to mention it still has a VTEC! Think of the current K24 as the modern version of the H22 found in Prelude Type SH.
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Thanks for the laugh.
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Chocs
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The Legend wrote:
Also, Toyota has a habit of making poor man's version of the actual & genuine and taking cues from it.
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We might not have the NSX without this type of thinking.
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FiSH-Chan
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BachelorFrog wrote:
Just because you hate Toyota that doesnt mean every single Toyota is shitty.
Grow up... |
Come to this part of the world I can really show you 'every single'.. hahaha. (GT86 don't count since it's too expensive and too rare here)
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FiSH-Chan
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The Legend wrote:
Also, Toyota has a habit of making poor man's version of the actual & genuine and taking cues from it. |
Well this part of the world at least, Toyota tend to make 'poor man's' version of even their own models.
I can think of a few:
- Poor man's Prado Land Cruiser (Unser)
- Poor man's baby Lexus (Vious)
- Poor man's Sienna (this model name I actually forgot)
- Poor man's Rav4 (this model name I forgot too)
These are VERY CRAPPY cars. The sad thing is people buy lots of them.
The GT86, aside from being nothing like AE86 and the drift crowd marketing, I will give credit to them for being unique to offer it when no one else is doing so.
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revvin
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I'm a Honda apologist, what Honda is doing is fine never been better, what Honda isn't doing isn't a big deal and can be explained away, and honestly DOHC or SOHC vtec, coke or pepsi, I can't even tell the difference.
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Powered by Honda
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Neal wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
HondaFTW wrote:
Having much positive reviews, and warmly acceptance of the community. FR-S the revival of the famed hachi-roku. Subaru's first rear-wheeled. What would Honda answer back to the toyobaru? A revival of the pastcars? A creation of a new sportscar? So what is your thought and take on this?
|
honda civic SI coupe is the answer.
Honda had no money to develop this thing. All money locked up in the RLX, NSX, and new Accord, and new RWD luxury coupe based on the HSC NSX-3 chassis.
If you want a RWD honda buy s2k and kill the FRS all day long on the twist and BLOW it away on the straight.
S2k kills the FRS and is 12 years ago. hehe.
|
PBH, the S2000 was a $35k car and made far more HP. IMO, it really doesn't make sense to discuss these two cars as if they'd be direct competition to each other.
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Well I can get a mint or low km s2k now for about 10k cheaper then a shitty Toyota.
I never drove the fr-s but, do I need to drive a 91 geo metro to know the s2k drives better? no I dont need to. Same apply.
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I think you can be better than this. Perhaps powered by Something Greater?
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hahah I like that! but what I say is not false, true?
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RocketRon
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DCR wrote:
Did you drive the FR-S?
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Nah*, waiting for this:
"We can definitely develop the intake system. We can also expect a revised variable valve control system (VTEC YO lol) as well as a sports exhaust system. These modifications could enable the 2.0-liter four-cylinder engine to produce approximately 250 hp"
Increased flow on this 86mm bore and stroke engine makes 8K RPM quite possible, right?
*it's an awesome car but it will only get better in time, patience is a virtue :)
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superchg2
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I'm sure the standard issue subota's will do just fine. The reviews have been excellent on these new model's and it's safe to say that any additional horsepower in the future will pump up the now reasonable sticker prices, as well.
Looking forward to seeing your new FR-S when you get it, DCR!
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DCR
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RocketRon wrote:
DCR wrote:
Did you drive the FR-S?
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Nah*, waiting for this:
"We can definitely develop the intake system. We can also expect a revised variable valve control system (VTEC YO lol) as well as a sports exhaust system. These modifications could enable the 2.0-liter four-cylinder engine to produce approximately 250 hp"
Increased flow on this 86mm bore and stroke engine makes 8K RPM quite possible, right?
*it's an awesome car but it will only get better in time, patience is a virtue :)
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It certainly will get better in time, and when it does, I will trade the current FR-S for the updated, better model...sort of like I used to do with my Honda vehicles.
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notyper
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Had a very interesting week involving the FR-S.
Let me start in reverse order:
Yesterday I was at the track participating in an Import Tuner shootout for FR cars. I actually entered my street S2000 and brought in a pro driver to pilot for me. They won't tell us the actual results till the magazine comes out, but I have a good feeling about the results from what I do know.
Anyways, on the FR-S, of the 70-80 cars participating in this track event (they were also conducting a FF shootout, and there were several general run groups too), there were already 7 FR-S there. Most of them without plates yet. That's right, 10% of the cars were FR-S's. Of the rest, there were maybe 10-12 S2000s, 15-20 Civics and 10-15 Integras, along with a 8-10 350/370Z's. The rest were a mixed bag.
The point being that I haven't seen a new car with this level of immediate track participation since the S2000 came out. The FR-S just begs to be driven at the track and people are apparently buying them with just that intention. This car is already a hit and I see it just continuing to gather momentum.
I also had an owner who is a pro level racer take his FR-S to another track this weekend and give me some feedback. The car was exceptionally popular there, with many people asking for ride alongs, or even to just sit in the car. His comments about the car on track could be summed up by the following: (1) Needs more power and (2) Too much oversteer. Not surprised by the first comment as 200 hp isn't much when you're used to driving actual race cars, but he did state that it really didn't even feel like 200 hp to him. The second comment was less expected. I knew that many magazines had stated the FR-S is setup looser than the BRZ, but apparently they've sacrificed objective speed for a more "drift" like setup. Fun, and looks cool, but not as fast as it could be. So changes will need to made there to improve track times, at least for more experienced drivers.
I also had a chance to drive the aforementioned car, but before it was fully broken in. So, I can't really give full commentary on the power as I kept it under 5500 rpm (we will be dynoing it this week).
Anyways, first impressions are, the car looks really good, especially in red or blue. It just has a pleasing shape. I didn't even get too into looking at the details, I just like the way the car looks. It feels right. Maybe the only thing I'd change would be the wheels. Too spindly, and the wheels/tires are too narrow for this sort of vehicle.
Getting into the car, I was surprised to find I liked the interior more in person than in pictures. It doesn't feel like a $25k car, and I mean that in a good way. There is liberal use of a thick rubberized material both on the dash and on the door sills. It feels very tough, durable and grippy, but has a nice give to it when you touch it. There are hard plastics in places throughout the interior, but they are kept away from touch points and don't draw attention to themselves.
The steering wheel is excellent. It has the right diameter, thickness and shape. It is unencumbered by any buttons or frou-frou. It looks right. About the only improvement you could make would be to wrap it in alcantara (ala Caddy CTS-V or 911 GT3), but in this price range, I don't think you could ask for better.
The shifter has a nice shape and feel to it. It is within one handsbreadth distance from the steering wheel, so the control relationship is excellent. With less than 500 miles on it, it did feel a bit notchy with a little too much resistance, but it will probably smooth out with age and use. Throws are reasonably short too, but could be a little shorter. IMO, this is a very nice shifter/tranny combo. Not quite Miata or S2000 good, but close enough that people will have no complaints.
The seats are very aggresively bolstered. At 6'1" and 240 lbs, they are actually a bit tight for me, but I'm definitely on the larger side so most people will fit in them fine. They are definitely track worthy. I don't like them quite as much as the FG/FD Civic Si seats which, while aggressively bolstered, are more comfortable. I do like them better than the 2012 Civic Si seats though. The FR-S seats remind me a little of the Recaros in my Evo X, but the Recaros are a little more ergonomic, and despite even more aggressive bolstering, were a better fit for me. Regardless, for a $25k sports car you really couldn't ask for much more in the seating department.
Going for a drive, with the aforementioned 5500 rpm rev limit, I tried to focus more on chassis and brake feel, but I will make some engine comments. From a dead stop, the clutch takeup and engine response was quite natural. No bogging or lurching (take notes Nissan!). Under way, the shifter feel becomes better (although still not S2000 quality). Steering response is very direct, with almost no slack. What give I could feel through the wheel seemed to me to come more from tire flex. Brakes are firm, and while I didn't push them too hard, are very easy to modulate. Best of all, the car supports heel/toe downshifting. Throttle/Brake overlap is supported with no nanny effects (surprising given the witch hunt Toyota suffered through, but I'm so happy they didn't screw this part up). All the controls seem well matched and balanced with each other. Integrated if you will. You can just drive the car and whatever you want to do just gets done without the car getting in the way.
In corners, I was obviously on the street in someone else's car, so I didn't really get to experience any of the oversteer issues. It just felt very, very neutral - which I like. Steering is extremely direct with excellent feel. The chassis feels incredibly stiff, but the suspension, while firm, does a good job over mid-corner bumps without upsetting the balance or the line. My only point of concern was that mid-corner, especially on less than perfect surfaces, the rear damping doesn't feel right. I felt like the rebound was off and it was packing the rear end down. Too much rebound damping could lead to oversteer. Others I have talked to also felt that the rear damping is the issue, but they disagreed with me on the cause. The key is, we all felt the rear damping could be better. Maybe that's the source of the oversteer?
Engine wise, the bottom end feels peppy. There is a nice torque bump around 3000-3500 rpm which makes the engine feel very responsive in low speed driving and traffic. It reminds me of the torque bump you get from installing a long tube cold air intake. Of course, that means that after that peak you get a drop-off that is quite noticeable. From my experience, and what I've seen of early dyno plots, this engine reminds me of a K20A2 with a cold-air more any thing else. And while the low end is good, I don't think this engine is in the class of a K20Z1, let alone a K20Z3 (especially the 2011). Powerwise I feel like this engine will put out about 8-10 hp less on the dyno than a K20Z3, and a little more torque. It is definitely the weakest link on this car. That doesn't mean its a bad engine, but this car would have been noticeably better with a K20Z3 IMO. We will be working on power development with several companies in the upcoming months, but I do have some concerns about how much we'll be able to find. Subaru's flat-4 intake manifolds historically don't produce good to end, and this one doesn't _look_ any different at first glance. ECU wise, the calibration seems pretty decent, but I know Cobb is working on an Accessport, so hopefully that will allow us to free up something. Of course, turbos and superchargers change everything.
Overall, this car is going to be a smash hit. Everything that counts (looks, handling, price, specs, etc.) has been done right. The engine, while not up to Honda standards, is still strong enough to get the job done and I don't think it'll deter many people who are interested in this car. If you're a fan of sports cars, I don't see how you could drive this car and not come away seriously thinking about buying one. Even I, who am accustomed to much more power, am seriously thinking about picking one up. It's just a great little car, even before you get to the low price.
SC
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NealX
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^Anyone, and you know who you are, care to refute this?
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BachelorFrog
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Yea, FRS is more tail-happy than BRZ, bit too much IMO:cough:20mphFRScrashlastweek:cough:
I feel like FRS is tuned more like AP1 and BRZ like AP2.
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DCR
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There is no way that was done at 20.
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DCR
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SC, when I drove the FR-S, I was also unable to experience the rev band above 4500. It is hard to describe how the car feels down low...but there is a "thickness" there that makes it very easy to drive at low speeds.
I can't wait to get mine...18 days to go.
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notyper
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Inexperienced drivers in a RWD car can lead to all sorts of stupid crashes. But I can see how the impact could have occurred at 20 mph. If he hit a pole as stated (and it looks like he did judging by the photos) then the impact would be focused. While the bumper is screwed up and the hood buckled, there is almost no damage to the front fender at all.
SC
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notyper
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One other thing I forgot to mention. The FR-S has a lot of gain in the throttle calibration. It feels like you get about 90-95% of the throttle opening in the first 50% of the throttle travel. Makes it feel even stronger than it is initially, but there isn't a lot more to be gained with more throttle. A lot of manufacturers do this, but I think it is definitely something we'd want to recalibrate.
SC
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superchg2
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Thanks for the great review, Shawn!
It's just too bad that there isn't a similar level of interest in new Honda's, like the 9G Si. But then again, it is no real improvement over the 8G, and it is not rwd.
Hopefully the new guy can get Honda back on track so enthusiast's will once again have a Honda to buy.
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DCR
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I stopped by the dealer on the way to dinner today and snapped some pics of the Hot Lava demo they have.
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NealX
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^I've seen that color in person and I don't care much for it. It just looks dirty for a "wild" color choice. Not hot. Not lava-like.
I'm surprised they didn't go for a yellow.
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DCR
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I think that is why it is the demo. The color is not one I would ever buy, and when mixed with the red interior accents, it makes as much sense as the orange variants the Si had.
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Grace141
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Anyone else feeling more hopeful for the future of fun to drive sports cars after reading Notyper's comments above? Maybe the fact that sports cars have usually been fuel efficient small cars will come into play for the greenies and everyone will be happy.
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RocketRon
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DCR wrote:
It certainly will get better in time, and when it does, I will trade the current FR-S for the updated, better model...sort of like I used to do with my Honda vehicles.
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I hear ya. Now that SC confirmed the K20Z3's superiority, I'll stop annoying you about the current 4U-GSE/FA20.
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