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Grace141
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In the ILX I see a compact, four-person sporty sedan with a reasonably powerful 4-cylinder engine. Add a choice of manual shift or automatic transmission with the manual shift being the way to go for car fans. The car has a good number of luxury features but it isn't loaded down with why-tech stuff. Independent suspension front and rear with, granted, a strut design at the front. Reasonably priced. Now, why is this not a modern version of an Integra sedan? I bought a 3rd gen Integra sedan new and drove it for several years so I'm curious what's wrong with the ILX. A fully loaded GS-R sedan with leather was over $22k which adjusts to about where the ILX 2.4/6mt is today so it can't be price.
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danielgr
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Hondarulez wrote:
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2012/06/subaru-br-z-scion-fr-s-top-edmunds-list-of-quickest-selling-vehicles.html
This just in: People want cheap sports cars. So much so, in fact, that the Toyobaru twins are exiting dealer lots almost as rapidly as they arrive, according to Edmunds. The BRZ and FR-S are taking only four and five days, respectively, to sell. This relative to an industry average of 53 days.
Hyundai's Veloster is also high on the list of quick movers, sticking around for an average of only 15 days. Veloster sales topped 3,600 units in May while more than 3,000 were sold per month between February and April, perhaps indicating a comeback of sorts for small cars with sporting intentions.
Hear that, Mazda? Build it and they will come.
Of course, both the Prius c and Prius v made the top 20 as well. So, apparently, people also want pods. Us included.
Josh Jacquot, Senior editor
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I don't know how this works....is the ILX selling that well, or are those just pre-orders? Does anyone know? I mean, looking at this chart, one would think ILX's are flying out of dealerships.
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- Demand
- Offer
Clearly, in the ILX case, it is limited offer (through May) that put it that high in the list (and I'm ready to bet the same is truth for the ToyoBaru). If I remember right the CR-Z also topped that list on it's first month (or got close to it). Just remember that the ILX has not been available until the end of the month, so for sure cars that were sold in May had a very low Days-To-Turn figure. Now, after a few months you'll see that figure increase for sure.
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danielgr
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dominik331 wrote:
To me the choice is clear (TSX) based on these ads from my local dealer:
Lease the 2013 Acura ILX Base for $218 permonth*
Lease the 2013 Acura ILX Prem for $259 permonth*
Lease the 2013 Acura ILX Tech for $279 permonth*
Lease the 2012 Acura TSX for $239 permonth*
Lease the 2012 Acura TSX Tech for $289 per month*
*1999 downon all.
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- you value power over FE
- you value size over nimbleness.
- you value a plushier ride over the latest tech & connectivity
- you don't need a 6MT (I'm assuming none of your dealer offerings include the special edition 6MT TSX)
that said, the TSX will soon be replaced or dismissed, and the ILX still has 5years ahead...
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Hondarulez
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Thanks for the explanation Daniel.
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4thaccord
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Grace, it is NOT sporty, it is NOT reasonably powerful, and it is NOT reasonably priced.
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A77
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danielgr wrote:
dominik331 wrote:
To me the choice is clear (TSX) based on these ads from my local dealer:
Lease the 2013 Acura ILX Base for $218 permonth*
Lease the 2013 Acura ILX Prem for $259 permonth*
Lease the 2013 Acura ILX Tech for $279 permonth*
Lease the 2012 Acura TSX for $239 permonth*
Lease the 2012 Acura TSX Tech for $289 per month*
*1999 downon all.
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- you value power over FE
- you value size over nimbleness.
- you value a plushier ride over the latest tech & connectivity
- you don't need a 6MT (I'm assuming none of your dealer offerings include the special edition 6MT TSX)
that said, the TSX will soon be replaced or dismissed, and the ILX still has 5years ahead...
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Having driven both on the same day, comparing a TSX 6 speed and the ILX 6 speed - i'd say the ILX has a softer ride and less sharp turn in than the TSX.
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superchg2
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Grace141 wrote:
In the ILX I see a compact, four-person sporty sedan with a reasonably powerful 4-cylinder engine. Add a choice of manual shift or automatic transmission with the manual shift being the way to go for car fans. The car has a good number of luxury features but it isn't loaded down with why-tech stuff. Independent suspension front and rear with, granted, a strut design at the front. Reasonably priced. Now, why is this not a modern version of an Integra sedan? I bought a 3rd gen Integra sedan new and drove it for several years so I'm curious what's wrong with the ILX. A fully loaded GS-R sedan with leather was over $22k which adjusts to about where the ILX 2.4/6mt is today so it can't be price.
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The GS-R was a bad ass, the ILX 2.4 is definitely not.
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atomiclightbulb
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Neal wrote:
Acura considers the markets for the RDX an ILX to be completely different. Unfortunately (for them) they are quite similar.
So I think it may come down to this:
Acura RDX (and MDX) buyers are willing to part with large dollars if the are sure they are getting the features and a "compelling" package for the money. The badge is immaterial. They buy thusly.
When they perform the same "analysis" on the ILX they simply walk away.
PS: Scottsdale, AZ is the home of the GenY, "$30,000 Millionaire." They have no interest in an ILX.
Unless it is given to them free... ;-) |
Ouch.
That almost makes me want to sign up at Acurazine and ask Tyson to come over to ToV to talk to us. The guy has taken a tremendous pounding from our community and it seems unfair that he has not had an opportunity to defend himself and his blog.
My issue with the ILX is not the vehicle or the engineering, but the fact that I cannot customize it to my liking. Perhaps it is inevitable with a low volume vehicle. To put things in perspective, Acura intends to sell 40k ILX total in a year, while the Civic sometimes sells over 30k in a single month. I just get frustrated when I cannot customize an ILX 6MT with sport cloth seats, or get the interior color I want with the exterior color... that does not say luxury to me. That says annoyance.
Grace141 wrote:
In the ILX I see a compact, four-person sporty sedan with a reasonably powerful 4-cylinder engine. Add a choice of manual shift or automatic transmission with the manual shift being the way to go for car fans. The car has a good number of luxury features but it isn't loaded down with why-tech stuff. Independent suspension front and rear with, granted, a strut design at the front. Reasonably priced. Now, why is this not a modern version of an Integra sedan? I bought a 3rd gen Integra sedan new and drove it for several years so I'm curious what's wrong with the ILX. A fully loaded GS-R sedan with leather was over $22k which adjusts to about where the ILX 2.4/6mt is today so it can't be price. |
It's not the price. It's Honda/Acura's boneheaded insistence on the options packaging for this vehicle.
It's fine for a mainstream car. You pay a low price and can expect to make some sacrifices in features. If I'm paying 18k for a Civic, I don't expect to be able to mix 'n match colors and options.
If I'm paying 31k for an ILX, I better have the option to get the seats I want, upholstered in the material and color I want, in the exterior color I want. What Acura needs to understand is that people who are paying a lot of money for a car are going to expect to be able to customize it the way they want it. Oh well. The ILX is a nice car, but it looks like the new Accord is much more flexible in terms of trim levels and transmissions. I'm in no hurry. I'll see how things look in the fall.
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superchg2
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
Neal wrote:
Acura considers the markets for the RDX an ILX to be completely different. Unfortunately (for them) they are quite similar.
So I think it may come down to this:
Acura RDX (and MDX) buyers are willing to part with large dollars if the are sure they are getting the features and a "compelling" package for the money. The badge is immaterial. They buy thusly.
When they perform the same "analysis" on the ILX they simply walk away.
PS: Scottsdale, AZ is the home of the GenY, "$30,000 Millionaire." They have no interest in an ILX.
Unless it is given to them free... ;-) |
Ouch.
That almost makes me want to sign up at Acurazine and ask Tyson to come over to ToV to talk to us. The guy has taken a tremendous pounding from our community and it seems unfair that he has not had an opportunity to defend himself and his blog.
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I'm sure Tyson is a nice guy, and all. Since Acura gave him a 2.4 ILX to drive, he probably will have many good things to say about Acura's new model.
The reason I think Tyson gets flack on this Forum is because he seems to be looking at the ILX through rose colored glasses, whereas many of us see the ILX as coming up a little short, especially since it does not have Earth Dreams.
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Chocs
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superchg2 wrote:
...especially since it does not have Earth Dreams.
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Wonder what he'd think once ED comes out and his free car doesn't have it.
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Grace141
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superchg2 wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
In the ILX I see a compact, four-person sporty sedan with a reasonably powerful 4-cylinder engine. Add a choice of manual shift or automatic transmission with the manual shift being the way to go for car fans. The car has a good number of luxury features but it isn't loaded down with why-tech stuff. Independent suspension front and rear with, granted, a strut design at the front. Reasonably priced. Now, why is this not a modern version of an Integra sedan? I bought a 3rd gen Integra sedan new and drove it for several years so I'm curious what's wrong with the ILX. A fully loaded GS-R sedan with leather was over $22k which adjusts to about where the ILX 2.4/6mt is today so it can't be price.
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The GS-R was a bad ass, the ILX 2.4 is definitely not.
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What factors are you basing your opinion on? Seriously, because I'm curious about the backlash on TOV. The ILX is quite a bit taller because of safety requirements and it's heavier because of the stuff people seem to want on their cars today. The 3rd gen-based GS-R had driver and passenger airbags but that was about it. If Acura fans want a lot more power from the ILX that's a valid wish but it would make the car something unlike the GS-R.
Because of weight and height the ILX, or any Acura, will never feel like the GS-R but truth be told everyone on TOV back in the '90s complained about the horrible XGT V4's Honda put on the Integras. Poor grip at the limit, poor handling in the rain, pronounced understeer. It's now twelve years since I had that Integra so I'm sure I remember it being better than it was.
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danielgr
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superchg2 wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
Neal wrote:
Acura considers the markets for the RDX an ILX to be completely different. Unfortunately (for them) they are quite similar.
So I think it may come down to this:
Acura RDX (and MDX) buyers are willing to part with large dollars if the are sure they are getting the features and a "compelling" package for the money. The badge is immaterial. They buy thusly.
When they perform the same "analysis" on the ILX they simply walk away.
PS: Scottsdale, AZ is the home of the GenY, "$30,000 Millionaire." They have no interest in an ILX.
Unless it is given to them free... ;-) |
Ouch.
That almost makes me want to sign up at Acurazine and ask Tyson to come over to ToV to talk to us. The guy has taken a tremendous pounding from our community and it seems unfair that he has not had an opportunity to defend himself and his blog.
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I'm sure Tyson is a nice guy, and all. Since Acura gave him a 2.4 ILX to drive, he probably will have many good things to say about Acura's new model.
The reason I think Tyson gets flack on this Forum is because he seems to be looking at the ILX through rose colored glasses, whereas many of us see the ILX as coming up a little short, especially since it does not have Earth Dreams.
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That said, I don't think he has any colored glasses. I think he is a genuine car enthusiast, somebody that spends half of his life driving a car all over his country, and seems to enjoy every mile. So basically I think he couldn't care less about all the fancy words and stuff people write in here. Earth This or that, who cares, he just goes drive his car and enjoys the hell out of it without needing to make up excuses or brag about all kinds of acronymes.
That kind of guy though, it's obviously not welcomed here.
Then again, I'm also surprised of people's comments on lack of ILX in the board. Honestly, if I'd buy one this would be the last place in the net where I'd come share my experience. We all know what happened with the few guys that dared open a thread to talk about their just purchased Civics... and obviously, looking at the sales numbers, it's not like the general public has much problems with it. Indeed, for good or bad, this place keeps becoming more of a real "temple", and where is a temple there is a religion and a dogma that goes with it. Those that disagree should be burned like the Spanish liked it to. Except for one thing, and it's that the net now offers a myriad of possibilities for anyone to find a place. So guys like Tyson don't need to show up in this ill-fated place, he can make his own blog, Facebook wall, keep in touch with people that enjoy his passion, and share his personal experiences with them.
In this place, the only purchase that warranties you unanimous praise is that of something like an Elantra or a Scion, regardless of one being traded in 6months and the other still in Japan... And yes, that is a bit of a exageration, but surely much closer to reality than the website name would suggest.
Oh yes, and since i got a bit of time and feel like talking tonight. I must admit that reading the same good old stories of "my local dealer guy knows the market/business much better than anyone at Honda" all the more laughable. But anyway, if that makes the dealer guy and potential customer feel better, all the best !!! I will always keep wondering why none of those smart guys work at Honda... But hey, I know that's just me !!!!
One thing is for sure, all this talk helps building expectations for Honda sales charts in the upcoming months...
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dominik331
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Señor Daniel, you just wrote a nice response and I totally agree with it. What I never agreed with is the pounding and hate towards this guys who is a legitimate Acura fan and proud owner like many of us. The only thing I never liked about his Acura ILX campaign is that his online videos meeting different executives (which Acura produced and put out) always come out as scripted but he should not be blamed for that either. That's just another one of Acura lame marketing attempts.
This guy just happens to be someone who falls within the intended demographic with an online presence and Acura saw that as an opportunity.
Heck give me a free ZDX or CR-Z and I'll blog about it until it falls apart.
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duncan
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I too think this Tyson does qualify as an enthusiast--how can he be anything but one when he maintains and drives that Legend for such a long time? But I also think there's alternative explanation for his keeping the Legend for so long--that there's been no recent Acura product that is worthwhile for him to replace the Legend with. Certainly not if it costs him money. But a free car? Why the hell not? Why look at the gift horse in the mouth?
As for getting pilloried on TOV? I must admit the tone of discourse has definitively taken a very nasty turn for for the worse in recent months, if not years (and I've been here for about 9 yrs). But as far you, Daniel, is concerned, I think the reason there's an extra dose of venom reserved for your postings is simply that you come across as snotty, annoying and arrogant. All your posts carry an imperious air of "Daniel knows best" and anyone who disagrees with you is a lowly peasant to be ignored. It's true that many rants against you have not been exactly rational or cogent. But you've also been called out by many knowledgeable posters who provided logical and lucid arguments against your positions, and you would never acknowledge these people and admit you're wrong. And the more you try to appear to be reasonable and to take the high road (as you have here), the more insufferable and infuriating you come across. Yes, I'm sure you are a very smart man, being a nuclear engineer and all, but would it kill you for once to admit that you're not always right and that POVs contrary to your own can be legitimate too?
Just look at 80Honda--I'm sure he's not stupid, but his snarky, patronizing and argumentative demeanor sure didn't win him any friends around here, and look what's happened to him.
I love to argue as much as the next guy, but when people prove I'm wrong in my posts, I've tried to owned up to it as much as possible. Show some humility and maybe people won't be flaming you so much.
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DCR
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danielgr wrote:
Obviously, the reason why people here don't like him is because he plays the Acura PR game game and drives a nice car instead of spending his time ranting on an internet board.
That said, I don't think he has any colored glasses. I think he is a genuine car enthusiast, somebody that spends half of his life driving a car all over his country, and seems to enjoy every mile. So basically I think he couldn't care less about all the fancy words and stuff people write in here. Earth This or that, who cares, he just goes drive his car and enjoys the hell out of it without needing to make up excuses or brag about all kinds of acronymes.
That kind of guy though, it's obviously not welcomed here.
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He still has his Legend.
| Dominik, I’m a little attached to the old 1994 LS coupe, but if you’ll take good care of it you can borrow her for an evening! And thanks for the congrats. SilverTL6, the ILX still belongs to Acura. I’m blogging about the car for a year, after which it does become mine but with strings attached. We’re still working out the details of this ‘partnership’ of sorts. At any rate, I am very appreciative of Acura’s willingness to recognize a faithful long-time owner and excited about spending some time with the latest offering. I’ve already got 1,300 miles on it |
http://drivetofive.wordpress.com/
You are correct Daniel, we do not need running Acura commercial around here.
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DCR
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danielgr wrote:
In this place, the only purchase that warranties you unanimous praise is that of something like an Elantra or a Scion, regardless of one being traded in 6months and the other still in Japan... And yes, that is a bit of a exageration, but surely much closer to reality than the website name would suggest.
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Daniel, maybe you can destroy my Scion before it leaves Japan and prevent the world from ending?
Oh wait, you drive a CR-Z, so you won't make it in time.
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atomiclightbulb
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duncan wrote:
I too think this Tyson does qualify as an enthusiast--how can he be anything but one when he maintains and drives that Legend for such a long time? But I also think there's alternative explanation for his keeping the Legend for so long--that there's been no recent Acura product that is worthwhile for him to replace the Legend with. Certainly not if it costs him money. But a free car? Why the hell not? Why look at the gift horse in the mouth? |
I actually believe that Tyson's perspective on automobiles probably aligns closely with my own. I am very interested in the auto industry in general, but I'm not the kind of buyer who demands very high performance.
The ILX is along the lines of the kind of car I like: practical, well-engineered, and enjoyable to drive (but not a track car).
Tyson posted his initial thoughts on the ILX after a long road trip: http://drivetofive.wordpress.com/2012/06/17/maiden-voyage-in-the-2013-ilx/. Driving impressions are at the end of the long list of photos. He reports that the handling is great and that he still felt pretty good after driving the ILX for 7 hours straight. I'd buy an ILX... but I just can't get over the lack of customization, which is why I will probably end up with a 9G Accord Sedan Sport 6MT instead.
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dominik331
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DCR wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Obviously, the reason why people here don't like him is because he plays the Acura PR game game and drives a nice car instead of spending his time ranting on an internet board.
That said, I don't think he has any colored glasses. I think he is a genuine car enthusiast, somebody that spends half of his life driving a car all over his country, and seems to enjoy every mile. So basically I think he couldn't care less about all the fancy words and stuff people write in here. Earth This or that, who cares, he just goes drive his car and enjoys the hell out of it without needing to make up excuses or brag about all kinds of acronymes.
That kind of guy though, it's obviously not welcomed here.
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He still has his Legend.
| Dominik, I’m a little attached to the old 1994 LS coupe, but if you’ll take good care of it you can borrow her for an evening! And thanks for the congrats. SilverTL6, the ILX still belongs to Acura. I’m blogging about the car for a year, after which it does become mine but with strings attached. We’re still working out the details of this ‘partnership’ of sorts. At any rate, I am very appreciative of Acura’s willingness to recognize a faithful long-time owner and excited about spending some time with the latest offering. I’ve already got 1,300 miles on it |
http://drivetofive.wordpress.com/
You are correct Daniel, we do not need running Acura commercial around here.
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DCR, would you let me drive your Scion for an evening?
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Colin
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
If I'm paying 18k for a Civic, I don't expect to be able to mix 'n match colors and options.
If I'm paying 31k for an ILX, I better have the option to get the seats I want, upholstered in the material and color I want, in the exterior color I want. What Acura needs to understand is that people who are paying a lot of money for a car are going to expect to be able to customize it the way they want it.
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Is it possible that that 'low price' bar has moved? Can you customize any car exactly the way you want it at the 30K price point? (assuming that 'customize' doesn't mean take every option out).
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DCR
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dominik331 wrote:
DCR, would you let me drive your Scion for an evening?
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Only if you disable traction control, and vehicle stability control at the same time, and film it all.
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CarmB
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Something to consider regarding sales and the ILX.
While it is true that the ILX really doesn't cater to those who are more interested in driving as an experience, are there not a lot of cars that sell in significant numbers about which pretty much the same could be said?
I mean, isn't there evidence that if you build a solid, nicely finished sedan, lots of consumers will buy the thing. Could it be that the ILX will sell in decent numbers even if it's not the spirited driver's car that many on this forum had been hoping for.
I can see why other Acura efforts have failed. The ZDX is an impractical SUV. No one asked for such a beast and certainly, judging by the reception to the ZDX, no one wants such an entity. The first-generation RDX, meanwhile, delivered poor fuel economy, despite being a smaller SUV. Few wanted such a product.
I don't really think the ILX suffers from any particular fatal flaw. It's a nice take on the compact sedan and I could imagine sales being decent enough on that basis. I do think the 2.4L and and the hybrid will do poorly in so much as they are significantly pricier than the base ILX but the base model is a decent product for a reasonable price. It should do all right in that a compact sedan that has an upscale feel is something that has been done before by many manufacturers and usually sales are solid. I don't imagine the ILX will be any different.
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Mr. Taggart
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Colin wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
If I'm paying 18k for a Civic, I don't expect to be able to mix 'n match colors and options.
If I'm paying 31k for an ILX, I better have the option to get the seats I want, upholstered in the material and color I want, in the exterior color I want. What Acura needs to understand is that people who are paying a lot of money for a car are going to expect to be able to customize it the way they want it.
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Is it possible that that 'low price' bar has moved? Can you customize any car exactly the way you want it at the 30K price point? (assuming that 'customize' doesn't mean take every option out).
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Every option adds cost and complexity to build the vehicle. Think of it this way. Say an exterior color comes with two interior colors, white or black. Say you add a third color, red. Someone has to predict how many of each color will sell for any given model year, way way before the vehicles even get made because you have samples that get signed off by different departments that include engineering, marketing, design, quality finance etc. This all costs a bunch of money and time. You then commit to adding the red color and have decided on your mix of each and have a planned amount of each to make. What is the only one thing certain about a plan? Well, plans are ALWAYS wrong!
Let's say you were going to make 50% black 30% white and 20% red but sales are running 40% black 15% white and 45% red. Your supplier has committed to make the necessary purchases to fulfill what you told him you wanted to order. Now he may be stuck with unneeded supplies. He is going to want to be paid for that. Either you pay him or you store the inventory yourself incurring additional storage costs like utilities, rent, insurance, handling, etc. Not only that your supplier needs to get more supplies to make the other color, and he may want a premium for that as well.
So adding one more color interior adds costs to the process.
You have to think about it from the production side, as it will increase production variance and complexity. Getting away from the interior color if it is any option that requires power or wiring the company has to decide do they add the additional wiring to every car or just to certain ones. Then they have to make sure the right wiring goes in the right car. Once again more complexity and more costs, and more production plans that are going to be wrong, because plans are always wrong.
In general you can think of options as being different combinations of items. A car with the only option of color of exterior (E) and color of interior (I) has possible combinations of E * I combinations. 5 exterior colors and 2 interior colors would give you 5*2=10 different models to build. If that changes to 10 exterior colors and 5 interior colors would be 10*5=50 different models to build. You have just increased your complexity by 400% (40/10) and you have the aforementioned costs to do so.
This is why you see Honda limit what options are available. It reduces costs and complexity. One interesting fact, Honda makes production runs or each vehicle based on options, whereas Toyota tends to build all combinations of a vehicle at once. For instance Honda will make a run of x number of Grey, EX-L, RES Honda Pilots in a row while Toyota will run all models and types of Highlanders at the same time. Honda thinks is makes for better quality vehicles.
But.... this does not mean it is impossible to offer more options especially if: A significantly number of customers think more options are of value to them AND they are willing to pay a premium to have more options than the company's competitors. The other scenario is a significant number of customers think more options are of value to them AND the company is able to effectively handle the increased complexity of these options and can can do so while mainting the same vehicle margin it currently has; it in effect can produce at lower costs than its competitors do.
Simply put, the crux of the matter is how many clearly want more options and can it be profitable for the company.
I have purposely avoided the impact more options would have on the sales process, service aspects, and resale values.
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superchg2
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Grace141 wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
In the ILX I see a compact, four-person sporty sedan with a reasonably powerful 4-cylinder engine. Add a choice of manual shift or automatic transmission with the manual shift being the way to go for car fans. The car has a good number of luxury features but it isn't loaded down with why-tech stuff. Independent suspension front and rear with, granted, a strut design at the front. Reasonably priced. Now, why is this not a modern version of an Integra sedan? I bought a 3rd gen Integra sedan new and drove it for several years so I'm curious what's wrong with the ILX. A fully loaded GS-R sedan with leather was over $22k which adjusts to about where the ILX 2.4/6mt is today so it can't be price.
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The GS-R was a bad ass, the ILX 2.4 is definitely not.
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What factors are you basing your opinion on? Seriously, because I'm curious about the backlash on TOV.
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Maybe you should read what I wrote again. I was talking about the 2.4. The car does not have any kind of suspension, brake or wheel and tire upgrade over the 2.0. And I'm sure you are aware they did not even bring over the LSD from the Si.
The GSR had numerous performance upgrades over the standard Integra, which made it a bad ass!
Grace 141, if you are curious about the backlash against the ILX, at least be aware of the facts!
"The GSR is a trim level for the Acura Integra. GSR stands for Grand Sport Rally. It features a different, higher horsepower DOHC VTEC motor, shorter geared close ratio manual transmission, 15x6.5 alloy wheels, usually leather interior, rear spoiler with integrated LED third brake light, front strut tower bar, and larger front and rear swaybars (1994-1997 front sway bar was larger, after 1998 they all became the same size regardless of trimlevel) The brake booster and master cylinder was also upgraded to a larger 1" unit in 1998 following the Integra Type R."
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atomiclightbulb
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Colin wrote:
Is it possible that that 'low price' bar has moved? Can you customize any car exactly the way you want it at the 30K price point? (assuming that 'customize' doesn't mean take every option out). |
The Ford Focus can be customized to a fairly significant degree, and the Subaru Impreza actually has logical "packages" that make sense.
Perhaps Acura is satisfied with the way it runs its batch manufacturing, but surely there must be some way to allow customization. The interchangeability of electronics, for example, should make it easy to substitute the Tech package for the Premium audio in the ILX upon request. From my perspective, 31k is not a "low price"... that's a big check to write. In context, the median household income in the U.S. is in the high 40's... the ILX is an expensive car by the standards of the average person IMO.
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Grace141
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superchg2 wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
In the ILX I see a compact, four-person sporty sedan with a reasonably powerful 4-cylinder engine. Add a choice of manual shift or automatic transmission with the manual shift being the way to go for car fans. The car has a good number of luxury features but it isn't loaded down with why-tech stuff. Independent suspension front and rear with, granted, a strut design at the front. Reasonably priced. Now, why is this not a modern version of an Integra sedan? I bought a 3rd gen Integra sedan new and drove it for several years so I'm curious what's wrong with the ILX. A fully loaded GS-R sedan with leather was over $22k which adjusts to about where the ILX 2.4/6mt is today so it can't be price.
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The GS-R was a bad ass, the ILX 2.4 is definitely not.
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What factors are you basing your opinion on? Seriously, because I'm curious about the backlash on TOV.
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Maybe you should read what I wrote again. I was talking about the 2.4. The car does not have any kind of suspension, brake or wheel and tire upgrade over the 2.0. And I'm sure you are aware they did not even bring over the LSD from the Si.
The GSR had numerous performance upgrades over the standard Integra, which made it a bad ass!
Grace 141, if you are curious about the backlash against the ILX, at least be aware of the facts!
"The GSR is a trim level for the Acura Integra. GSR stands for Grand Sport Rally. It features a different, higher horsepower DOHC VTEC motor, shorter geared close ratio manual transmission, 15x6.5 alloy wheels, usually leather interior, rear spoiler with integrated LED third brake light, front strut tower bar, and larger front and rear swaybars (1994-1997 front sway bar was larger, after 1998 they all became the same size regardless of trimlevel) The brake booster and master cylinder was also upgraded to a larger 1" unit in 1998 following the Integra Type R."
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OK, thanks for that. I see you're looking at suspension specs and such. I realize from having shopped the Integras back then that there were differences in suspension spec between the 3rd gen Integra based GS-R and the RS and LS. There was a noticeable difference between the RS/LS Integras and the GS-R in terms of handling but the more substantial driving differences were between the auto and manual shift cars. My dealer used automatic Integra LS coupes for loaners which I thought were pretty awful. What a waste of a great car. The GS-R coupes I test drove during '94 and '95 had a very controlled ride but also allowed a lot of body roll. Weird, actually, but the sedan felt like it offered a higher level of grip than the coupe which I could only attribute to the sedan's greater curb weight.
I can't say I've read anywhere what the differences are between the 2L/auto and 2.4/6mt ILX suspension specs. I can't imagine Honda using the same spring rates and roll bars for both but maybe they are. One thing that seems certain is the wheel/tire combos used on all three ILX's will certainly result in a huge increase in unsprung weight over the GS-R's 15-inch alloy + P195/55R15 combo.
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Mr. Taggart
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
Colin wrote:
Is it possible that that 'low price' bar has moved? Can you customize any car exactly the way you want it at the 30K price point? (assuming that 'customize' doesn't mean take every option out). |
The Ford Focus can be customized to a fairly significant degree, and the Subaru Impreza actually has logical "packages" that make sense.
Perhaps Acura is satisfied with the way it runs its batch manufacturing, but surely there must be some way to allow customization. The interchangeability of electronics, for example, should make it easy to substitute the Tech package for the Premium audio in the ILX upon request. From my perspective, 31k is not a "low price"... that's a big check to write. In context, the median household income in the U.S. is in the high 40's... the ILX is an expensive car by the standards of the average person IMO.
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The problem is I wonder if Honda/Acura even knows or cares when someone does not end up buying from them. Every dealer has a list of 'ups' and all kinds of data about them. With data mining techniques and the stuff available they can even find out more. Does Honda/Acura even try to find out why someone doesn't end up buying from them. Studies have shown that people may not be willing to tell the company directly why they did not buy, but are usually willing to tell a third party why. (Andrew does Honda do this?)
They could then find out if the need for customization is significant enought to take action.
For years companies moved towards reducing option packages to become more like Honda/Acura. However, with the new car market shrinking significantly due to the depression, there will be less people to buy new cars and they will keep them longer. It makes sense that companies should try and make sure that people can get what they want.
Atomic, personal question. Could you put a value on having more options? Or do you consider more option flexibility one of the prices to compete? (Btw I agree 31k is a big check)
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Colin
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
Colin wrote:
Is it possible that that 'low price' bar has moved? Can you customize any car exactly the way you want it at the 30K price point? (assuming that 'customize' doesn't mean take every option out). |
The Ford Focus can be customized to a fairly significant degree, and the Subaru Impreza actually has logical "packages" that make sense.
Perhaps Acura is satisfied with the way it runs its batch manufacturing, but surely there must be some way to allow customization.
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No matter what they coulda, shoulda done, people would be complaining here. IMO they should stop adding packages and go back to the 'fully loaded' at 'one price' model. This way the only complaint could be that someone wanting a 'stripper' model is paying for something he doesn't want. (moonroofs are a current example of this way of doing things)
FWIW, our 6MT was the first to sell, most of our first batch is gone (~10 cars) including our only hybrid. We just received another 6 cars so I think there is about 8 on hand now. Unfortunately, of the 8 ILXs, six are Black w/Ebony. Not much color selection now.
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CarmB
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The simple solution to the matter of pricing and the like would have been to make the 2.4L standard. If the concern was fuel economy, the Accord version of that motor would have produced identical fuel economy to the 2.0L. Still ample power for a compact sedan. Offer a manual tranny as an option with any configuration and all the bases would have been covered.
When the more efficient 4 debuts in the Accord later this year, we're going to have the situation of the bigger family hauler getting better fuel economy than the premium compact ILX. Not a good arrangement.
If the base ILX had the same price tag as it does now only with the 2.4L and more importantly the manual stick could be had in any configuration, the response to the ILX would have been far more favourable.
As it stands, though, expectations of sales Armageddon are greatly exaggerated. When considering what cars the ILX will be shopped against, the list is rather a long one. Accord, Camry, Taurus, Malibu, Verano, Mazda 6, Sonata, Altima, and on and on and on. Any one looking for a sedan and willing and able to pay more than the lowest of prices would likely have a car like the ILX on its radar. Not everyone wants or needs a larger sedan. Some of us are perfectly happy with cars sized like the ILX. I'm 5 ft. 7 in., stocky, overweight, but not obese. The rest of my household is smaller still. The CSX, which I assume is similar to the ILX, is fine in terms of interior space. I prefer nimble over excessive and for me, personally, larger sedans are excessive.
I'm not shopping for a car right now but if I were my observation regarding the ILX packaging is that being one of those people who prefers manual trannies, it's irritating that I can't have one in the base model or, for that matter, the fully loaded model, either. This slight is not a huge problem for the majority of shoppers since people like me who prefer doing our own shifting are a dying breed. The damage, though, is that some have complained that the one variant offering the 2.4L and the manual is pricey and that implies that pricing is off the mark all around. Yet the base ILX is reasonably priced and a rather well-equipped car.
Had Honda put the Accord 4 in the base ILX, offered the manual across the board, and kept the pricing now applied to the 2.0L, all the packaging issues causing negativity would have been addressed. The following model year, a Type S could have been conjured up likely with few complaints about pricing.
Also as soon as Earth Dreams tech becomes aavailable, the ILX should be top-of-the-list to get it. Do this and I believe that a car that many are questioning becomes an unqualified success.
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NSXforever
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Colin wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
Colin wrote:
Is it possible that that 'low price' bar has moved? Can you customize any car exactly the way you want it at the 30K price point? (assuming that 'customize' doesn't mean take every option out). |
The Ford Focus can be customized to a fairly significant degree, and the Subaru Impreza actually has logical "packages" that make sense.
Perhaps Acura is satisfied with the way it runs its batch manufacturing, but surely there must be some way to allow customization.
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No matter what they coulda, shoulda done, people would be complaining here. IMO they should stop adding packages and go back to the 'fully loaded' at 'one price' model. This way the only complaint could be that someone wanting a 'stripper' model is paying for something he doesn't want. (moonroofs are a current example of this way of doing things)
FWIW, our 6MT was the first to sell, most of our first batch is gone (~10 cars) including our only hybrid. We just received another 6 cars so I think there is about 8 on hand now. Unfortunately, of the 8 ILXs, six are Black w/Ebony. Not much color selection now.
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Completely agree with this. The loaded with Nav, not loaded with NAV strategy was simple and easy to use and for consumers to understand and really made Acura show their value.
Its really hard to see the point of designing and building the car in America to "save on costs" and its not a value at all. The TSX built in Japan is the far better proposition.
Ten years ago for the price of the ILX you got a 225hp TL with HIDs, leather and was much larger. For 2012 you get 150hp, no HIDs, cloth but OMG bluetooth and finally push button start.
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JimmyEats
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I don't see why we should think pushing a button to start is a good thing. With the same key technology, can't we just get in and then move it from Park to Drive when we want to drive? Oh actually, I think that Tesla just invented that, but it costs a lot more money. Lame...
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