longhorn
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http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120618/OEM03/306189976/1117/acura-designer-tweaks-the-beak-but-itll-stay
note this little gem-
Minami says he wants to make the Honda brand sportier and more active, closer to Acura's traditional territory. In turn, Acura will be "going further out, maybe pursuing premium."
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20120618/OEM03/306189976#ixzz1y9S4rrjZ
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revvin
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Did he have to say maybe? It's been too long gone now, either shit or get off the pot acura.
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Gumbercules
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"We actually had pretty bad feedback on this initially from different directions. But we are not going to buckle under that pressure."
so customers and media tell you its ugly and you become stubborn as a response? Yea, great marketing strategy.
The beak has been made neutral in the new TL, IMO, but it has caused huge damage to the brand. I dont think being arrogant is the right approach here.
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Ultima
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They abandoned rwd and v8 and "maybe" wants to move acura upmarket? The beak is terrible, making it less ugly isn't exactly confidence inspiring. They are clueless.
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Mr. Taggart
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So wait, they spent all of this developmental money, scrapped the tier 1 and the HSV and NOW they want to start going back in that direction? I don't care who it was but that explains why nothing will change until the 2016 model year, and eternity in the car biz.
And how far 'out' do they have to go to make Honda sporty? This is the problem for Honda. In the 'glory years' for Honda and Acura in North America they were never considered stunners. Matter of fact I remember going to a focus group for Ford (Saw the third generation two years before production- I threw up in my mouth a little when I saw it.) where they showed me pictures of a Chrysler Acclaim and Honda Accord and wanted to know if they were different and why. I told the group of Ford folks, yes there is a huge difference, to which one guy said, "Yeah but they are both three box four door sedans, wouldn't you want something thatn looks more futuristic?" I told him they were both three box cars but were in different levels for performance, quality, and reliability which as a Honda buyer was most important to me. They did not like my answer...
Honda's reputation was never built on being sexy. I really question if Honda truly knows how big its customer base was in the 'glory years' or are they just concerned with growing the sales of additional units by watering down thier DNA chasing additional units. I would argue, and Honda is starting to admit, that this has happened.
That is not to say that if Honda can provide the same value proposition they used to provide AND make the cars a little more sporty looking that will be good.
As an aside what does 'active' mean besides marketing speak?
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mobis21
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Ultima wrote:
They abandoned rwd and v8 and "maybe" wants to move acura upmarket? The beak is terrible, making it less ugly isn't exactly confidence inspiring. They are clueless.
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Your opinion. I for one actually like the grill. Looks great on the RDX, and the new ILX.
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xBeastx
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Ultima wrote:
They abandoned rwd and v8 and "maybe" wants to move acura upmarket? The beak is terrible, making it less ugly isn't exactly confidence inspiring. They are clueless.
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That's good that they don't have a single production V8. The new "cool" is small engines. Look at Ford's EcoBoost engines. A small 2.0L inline 4 drives the Explorer, and even a 1.6L for the Escape.
Bottom line: V8 = bad. Just my 2 cents.
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Mr. Taggart
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Its not 'cool' it has been a direct reaction to achieve unrealstic fuel ecomomy numbers by goverments who want to cover their global agenda under the guise of global warming, sorry global climate change. Company's use turbo charged engines to game government fuel economy test and then deliver real world results significantly less.
My choice would be to make different engine sizes and let the consumer choose which one they want to buy.
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Ultima
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mobis21 wrote:
Ultima wrote:
They abandoned rwd and v8 and "maybe" wants to move acura upmarket? The beak is terrible, making it less ugly isn't exactly confidence inspiring. They are clueless.
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Your opinion. I for one actually like the grill. Looks great on the RDX, and the new ILX.
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Apparently, my opinion seems to be in the majority concerning the beak. I'm sure Acura didn't rush the TL MMC to address the looks because the majority love ls it.
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lexusgs
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They should have stuck with the shield from the original 2nd gen MDX. It was upscale looking and not nearly as divisive and it could have been tastefully applied to other vehicles. Instead they went with a big gnarly beak that did not look upscale and was very divisive. Toning down the beak has not helped much. If they want to take Acura further upscale they are going to have to give it powertrains, performance, luxury features, and styling far above Honda's. Why they keep sticking with the beak is beyond me, it looks better toned but it is still hindering nicer designs. Along with the new NSX Acura needs something to set itself apart like either a more affordable rwd sports car, rwd luxury coupe, or some great looking low slung 4 door or two door with the E-SHAWD offering amazing performance.
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EXV6
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I actually like the revised & refined "power plenium" grill as seen on the current TL, TSX, RL and the brand-new RDX & ILX. Hopefully the top-selling MDX will finally get the new treatment for 2013. The original version of the Acrura "beak" was hideous, imo. I have no doubt that it cost Acura to lose sales. Styling is a major consideration for most customers. Now I wish they would could just restyle the fugly rear end of the TL. The arrogant designer featured in this article probably railroaded that through as well. He sounds like a real jerk.
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Mr. Taggart
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lexusgs wrote:
They should have stuck with the shield from the original 2nd gen MDX. It was upscale looking and not nearly as divisive and it could have been tastefully applied to other vehicles. Instead they went with a big gnarly beak that did not look upscale and was very divisive. Toning down the beak has not helped much. If they want to take Acura further upscale they are going to have to give it powertrains, performance, luxury features, and styling far above Honda's. Why they keep sticking with the beak is beyond me, it looks better toned but it is still hindering nicer designs. Along with the new NSX Acura needs something to set itself apart like either a more affordable rwd sports car, rwd luxury coupe, or some great looking low slung 4 door or two door with the E-SHAWD offering amazing performance.
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I would agree about the grill the 2nd gen came out it. I was very unique grill and probably could have translated well to the rest of the lineup.
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ClementZ
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Gumbercules wrote:
"We actually had pretty bad feedback on this initially from different directions. But we are not going to buckle under that pressure."
so customers and media tell you its ugly and you become stubborn as a response? Yea, great marketing strategy.
The beak has been made neutral in the new TL, IMO, but it has caused huge damage to the brand. I dont think being arrogant is the right approach here.
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Because the customers sometimes don't know what they want.
When the 3rd gen TL was nearing the end of its cycle, some were wanting something radical.
See how that turned out.
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Waldo
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Gumbercules wrote:
"We actually had pretty bad feedback on this initially from different directions. But we are not going to buckle under that pressure."
so customers and media tell you its ugly and you become stubborn as a response? Yea, great marketing strategy.
The beak has been made neutral in the new TL, IMO, but it has caused huge damage to the brand. I dont think being arrogant is the right approach here.
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Where this guy is clueless is in diplomacy. Instead of saying "but we are not going to buckle under that pressure," he could have said, "and we listened, and redesigned the grill, keeping the brand identity, but shifting from a severe and threatening look, to a modern, architecturally graceful, but strong design expression."
See how much nicer that sounds, even if it's all b*ll sh*t? :-)
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JMU R1
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ClementZ wrote:
Gumbercules wrote:
"We actually had pretty bad feedback on this initially from different directions. But we are not going to buckle under that pressure."
so customers and media tell you its ugly and you become stubborn as a response? Yea, great marketing strategy.
The beak has been made neutral in the new TL, IMO, but it has caused huge damage to the brand. I dont think being arrogant is the right approach here.
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Because the customers sometimes don't know what they want.
When the 3rd gen TL was nearing the end of its cycle, some were wanting something radical.
See how that turned out.
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I would say that the customer knows what they want, but it is not the customer's job to design the car. The designer's job is to interpret customer desires (and dislikes) and come up with an attractive design. So the customer may have wanted 'aggressive' or 'distinctive' styling, but the designers screwed up by delivering an aggressive, distinctive, and ugly design.
It is nothing but pride and stubbornness to persist with a design the customer hated just so you can say, "We didn't give in." Honda embraces failure as a way to learn, but don't stick to failure just so you don't have to admit you were wrong.
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Mikeydred
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I also agree there is nothing wrong with the plenum it gives the brand some identity and you know an Acura when you see one. Lexus has gone to the hour glass grill as their trademark and even they know they will lose traditional buyers with the look, but at least they will now have established a corporate face. When I first started visiting this site around 07/08 all I use to read is complaints how all the Acura cars and suv’s had different which showed a lack of cohesiveness, they finally have identity and we still complain. I am actually satisfied with my 09 TL's face (does show dings easily though) and think the refresh softened the front end up too much and took away the boldness of the TL. The new plenums on the ILX, RDX, RLX concept and if the NSX stays true to form are the best iterations to date and show the tweaks have worked. The 3D look did make the grill look cheap (only complaint on the 09 TL) whereas the newer grills with the shinny chrome around the edges have a more upscale feel.
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NealX
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Mikeydred wrote:
I also agree there is nothing wrong with the plenum it gives the brand some identity and you know an Acura when you see one. Lexus has gone to the hour glass grill as their trademark and even they know they will lose traditional buyers with the look, but at least they will now have established a corporate face. When I first started visiting this site around 07/08 all I use to read is complaints how all the Acura cars and suv’s had different which showed a lack of cohesiveness, they finally have identity and we still complain. I am actually satisfied with my 09 TL's face (does show dings easily though) and think the refresh softened the front end up too much and took away the boldness of the TL. The new plenums on the ILX, RDX, RLX concept and if the NSX stays true to form are the best iterations to date and show the tweaks have worked. The 3D look did make the grill look cheap (only complaint on the 09 TL) whereas the newer grills with the shinny chrome around the edges have a more upscale feel.
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Jeff and I agreed that the revised grille perhaps "emasculated" the TL a bit too much, though we very much like all the other updates including revised fogs and tails and the blackened headlamps.
What we didn't understand is why the new, better-resolved grille as found on the ILX, RDX and RLX concept did not first appear on the revised TL. Certainly that new solution was locked-in around or near the refresh. Why not use it there?
All other changes were appropriately emboldened yet the revised grill is pretty demure.
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canuck-in-NY
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Other than the still long overhangs, I feel the TL MMC is very successful. Had the car come this way I don't think there would have been so much noise. I think the full redesign for the TL is the right time to introduce the new better resolved identity grill allowing the RLX to lead as a flagship design.
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JMU R1
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canuck-in-NY wrote:
Other than the still long overhangs, I feel the TL MMC is very successful. Had the car come this way I don't think there would have been so much noise. I think the full redesign for the TL is the right time to introduce the new better resolved identity grill allowing the RLX to lead as a flagship design.
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Agreed. I don't think people would've been gushing about the looks but the TL MMC is not offensive and is a more cohesive design overall.
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Midi_Amp
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Neal wrote:
Mikeydred wrote:
I also agree there is nothing wrong with the plenum it gives the brand some identity and you know an Acura when you see one. Lexus has gone to the hour glass grill as their trademark and even they know they will lose traditional buyers with the look, but at least they will now have established a corporate face. When I first started visiting this site around 07/08 all I use to read is complaints how all the Acura cars and suv’s had different which showed a lack of cohesiveness, they finally have identity and we still complain. I am actually satisfied with my 09 TL's face (does show dings easily though) and think the refresh softened the front end up too much and took away the boldness of the TL. The new plenums on the ILX, RDX, RLX concept and if the NSX stays true to form are the best iterations to date and show the tweaks have worked. The 3D look did make the grill look cheap (only complaint on the 09 TL) whereas the newer grills with the shinny chrome around the edges have a more upscale feel.
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Jeff and I agreed that the revised grille perhaps "emasculated" the TL a bit too much, though we very much like all the other updates including revised fogs and tails and the blackened headlamps.
What we didn't understand is why the new, better-resolved grille as found on the ILX, RDX and RLX concept did not first appear on the revised TL. Certainly that new solution was locked-in around or near the refresh. Why not use it there?
All other changes were appropriately emboldened yet the revised grill is pretty demure.
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Perhaps the cost for bringing TL inline with ILX, RDX and RLX design was too much? A problem the power plenum design on the TL (and the RL) that I noticed is that the slanted lines "pulls down" the front fascia, creating the beak effect. On the TL pre mmc, this line was formed from the front fender flare to the headlight to the plenum. The ILX, RDX and RLX power plenum and whole front fascia doesn't drops down anymore, instead it swept back creating a sharp wide look.
For the current gen TL to have the new swept back look, the headlights needs to be redesigned as currently it was designed integrally with the power plenum with its tapered at the end design. With that much changes, I see that the current look is a safe tradeoff from cost and cosmetic point of view.
For me though, I'd buy a used pre mmc TL (I wish), since I don't have any problem with the TL beak, the mmc makes it look too sedated... I want my imperial class star destroyer in black, beak and all.
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NealX
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^Well put. You have a good eye. :-)
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DCR
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This thread is gold...just before the official big beak reveal, and then after:
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/car-chat/351201-2009-acura-tl-thread-merged-threads-painted-beak-5.html
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Mikeydred
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^^Of course if you pull comments off a Lexus site you will get plenty of haters, like I said you either like or you don’t. I have certainly seen bad grilles on the road in the past and I wouldn’t put the plenum in that list. I wonder what Club Lexus folks are saying about their hour glass grille?
What is more interesting is what role will Ikeda and the rest of the Torrance design team play in future models. They spent so much money trying to separate the brands from a styling point to go back to a global designer seems like a waste. I also find it funny that when the ILX and NSX concepts were shown, it was made as if they were solely designed by Acura in Torrance (NSX with global input) and later we hear that’s’ not the case. The same applies probably for the RDX too and definitely we know the RLX was not designed here.
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NealX
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^I agree that there were/are some inconsistent statements as to what was done where. And it may speak to possible lack of faith or competency in Team Torrance.
With the increase in "design-talk" I've seen no statements of affirmation regarding Ikeda's group. After a polite conversation a few years ago in Detroit, I'm convinced that he cares deeply about his craft, but certainly I have no idea as to what his (adjusted?) daily charge is and under what conditions he's come to be working under. And It can't be easy to be subjected to performing a "Show and Tell with Tyson."
Somewhat off topic, but my Fantasy Factory portfolio posted at issuu.com got a sudden spike of 45 new views on Sunday after a very long dry spell and no shameless plugging. ;-) We joked that perhaps somewhere in Hondaland, associates were "invited" to a sit-down, flip-though.
RE: KEENED - The Temple of VTEC Fantasy Factory
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DCR
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Mikeydred wrote:
^^Of course if you pull comments off a Lexus site you will get plenty of haters, like I said you either like or you don’t. I have certainly seen bad grilles on the road in the past and I wouldn’t put the plenum in that list. I wonder what Club Lexus folks are saying about their hour glass grille?
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I thought I linked back to Acurazine...had a link loaded from there at one point and didn't even pay attention.
Same exact thing though, so it doesn't matter. The entire planet pretty much reacted in the same way.
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dominik331
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Neal wrote:
^I agree that there were/are some inconsistent statements as to what was done where. And it may speak to possible lack of faith or competency in Team Torrance.
With the increase in "design-talk" I've seen no statements of affirmation regarding Ikeda's group. After a polite conversation a few years ago in Detroit, I'm convinced that he cares deeply about his craft, but certainly I have no idea as to what his (adjusted?) daily charge is and under what conditions he's come to be working under. And It can't be easy to be subjected to performing a "Show and Tell with Tyson."
Somewhat off topic, but my Fantasy Factory portfolio posted at issuu.com got a sudden spike of 45 new views on Sunday after a very long dry spell and no shameless plugging. ;-) We joked that perhaps somewhere in Hondaland, associates were "invited" to a sit-down, flip-though.
RE: KEENED - The Temple of VTEC Fantasy Factory
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Someone recently mentioned it on another thread. That could've been it. I was one of those who recently viewed it after seeing the link on the other theead.
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Jesse
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The latest iteration of the plenum grille (on the ILX and RDX) is pretty acceptable to me. They can keep the plenum. But I still do want them to continue tweaking it though.
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NealX
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I think the new grille is fine (and better resolved). I have no more 'beefs' about it.
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Mechanic
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Neal wrote:
I think the new grille is fine (and better resolved). I have no more 'beefs' about it.
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Blasphermer! :-]
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NealX
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^OK. "Fine" as in that it's arrived at a point that as a "thing" they've resolved it about as best they can.
Not that they should have ever pursued it in the first place! :-)
I think that for a while the plenum was an easy scapegoat for a greater criticism of the brand's missteps - all their problems manifested/expressed within a particular design element.
And now that the grille is better resolved we are now free to focus on Acura's bigger problems!!! ;-)
(...though I've now come to "care" about them less and less.)
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