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HondaFan1990
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owequitit wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Acura May sales +62% YTD +11%
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And that value is where compared to 5 years ago? IIRC, it is about half. So that is like saying good job for raising your sales and still being 40% below where you were before you released all the new controversial models. It is easy to take a short term snapshot and make it look good. The truth is that Acura's performance still sucks compared to even a few years ago. Pointing to Buick's bad results doesn't justify Acura's, and it certainly doesn't mean that the Verano with more power is an inferior car to any Acura product.
To be honest, Buick has a lot of problems, but they have had them for a long time. so to expect them to reverse right away is not realistic.
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Well if Buick gets a pass for having problems, why doesn't Acura? Both sales aren't anything special but Buick's continual spiral of less sales is "alright" of sorts and nothing should be expected to turn around soon, but Acura, whose sales aren't what they used to be 5 years ago but actually improving is "wrong"? Buick started to turn around (slowly) with the introduction of the Enclave and Lucerne. If I'm not mistaken, the Lucerne came out in 2006, Enclave in 2007 or so. Now they have the new Regal and Verano also. Pointing at Acura and telling them about themselves before "controversial models" does nothing. You won't always be "on top". You will fall and stumble and then pick yourself up, hopefully. Buick has been trying to turn themselves around from the "old people's brand" since those two aforementioned models and Acura has been trying to find themselves in that same amount of time from their sales peak to their decline as of late. Buick seems to have found some mojo and Acrua does too if the RDX, NSX and RLX have anything to say for it. Time will tell, but pointing at Acura in defense of the pointing at Buick gets us nowhere.
And what models does Acura have that's so controversial? The ZDX comes to mind and that's it. Certainly not the ILX. What would be wrong with that car that shouldn't agree with most people? Or maybe it's styling.....which is subjective....cause I know people that thought the 04-08 TL was ugly and LOVE the current body....
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Buick doesn't get a pass... that is why all of you and your fanboy friends are in here bashing what a piece of crap the Verano is...
So to turn your own logic around on you, if Buick doesn't get a pass for shitty product, why should Acura?
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In that whole response to your rant about Acura sales not being what they were 5 years ago, never did I say anything bad about the Verano. I never bashed it. And if we're fanboys, the rest of you are bitches cause that's all I hear most of you "Swear I know every damn thing" posters on here do. We know everything ain't peaches and cream, but damn, life ain't all black and dark at Honda/Acura.
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atomiclightbulb
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HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Acura May sales +62% YTD +11%
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Pointing to Buick's bad results doesn't justify Acura's, and it certainly doesn't mean that the Verano with more power is an inferior car to any Acura product. |
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Buick doesn't get a pass... that is why all of you and your fanboy friends are in here bashing what a piece of crap the Verano is...
So to turn your own logic around on you, if Buick doesn't get a pass for shitty product, why should Acura?
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In that whole response to your rant about Acura sales not being what they were 5 years ago, never did I say anything bad about the Verano. I never bashed it.
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Yeah, the Verano bashing is all (or mostly all) on me. And yeah I am going to bash the Verano. The underlying engineering in the Verano is mediocre to obsolete, and it is grossly overweight. It's a much worse situation than the ILX.
Buick is probably going to have its ass handed to it by its co-workers at the Cadillac team. It looks like Caddy is actually trying with the ATS rather than throwing excessive horsepower into a platform that has neither the balance nor the mechanical underpinnings to take advantage of it.
Fanboy friends? LOL, you know better than that. I call it as I see it, and give specific reasons to justify my conclusions, whether they are good ones or bad ones. The ILX Hybrid certainly did not get a pass from me.
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owequitit
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HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Acura May sales +62% YTD +11%
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And that value is where compared to 5 years ago? IIRC, it is about half. So that is like saying good job for raising your sales and still being 40% below where you were before you released all the new controversial models. It is easy to take a short term snapshot and make it look good. The truth is that Acura's performance still sucks compared to even a few years ago. Pointing to Buick's bad results doesn't justify Acura's, and it certainly doesn't mean that the Verano with more power is an inferior car to any Acura product.
To be honest, Buick has a lot of problems, but they have had them for a long time. so to expect them to reverse right away is not realistic.
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Well if Buick gets a pass for having problems, why doesn't Acura? Both sales aren't anything special but Buick's continual spiral of less sales is "alright" of sorts and nothing should be expected to turn around soon, but Acura, whose sales aren't what they used to be 5 years ago but actually improving is "wrong"? Buick started to turn around (slowly) with the introduction of the Enclave and Lucerne. If I'm not mistaken, the Lucerne came out in 2006, Enclave in 2007 or so. Now they have the new Regal and Verano also. Pointing at Acura and telling them about themselves before "controversial models" does nothing. You won't always be "on top". You will fall and stumble and then pick yourself up, hopefully. Buick has been trying to turn themselves around from the "old people's brand" since those two aforementioned models and Acura has been trying to find themselves in that same amount of time from their sales peak to their decline as of late. Buick seems to have found some mojo and Acrua does too if the RDX, NSX and RLX have anything to say for it. Time will tell, but pointing at Acura in defense of the pointing at Buick gets us nowhere.
And what models does Acura have that's so controversial? The ZDX comes to mind and that's it. Certainly not the ILX. What would be wrong with that car that shouldn't agree with most people? Or maybe it's styling.....which is subjective....cause I know people that thought the 04-08 TL was ugly and LOVE the current body....
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Buick doesn't get a pass... that is why all of you and your fanboy friends are in here bashing what a piece of crap the Verano is...
So to turn your own logic around on you, if Buick doesn't get a pass for shitty product, why should Acura?
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In that whole response to your rant about Acura sales not being what they were 5 years ago, never did I say anything bad about the Verano. I never bashed it. And if we're fanboys, the rest of you are bitches cause that's all I hear most of you "Swear I know every damn thing" posters on here do. We know everything ain't peaches and cream, but damn, life ain't all black and dark at Honda/Acura.
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Don't try and pretend you don't bash everything that is pro-Honda.
I guess I was too generalized for you to pick up on it, but lately, you and several others "bash" anything that isn't pro-ILX or pro-Honda. Such as your absolutely ridiculous assertions about the ILX hybrid...
And Acura also has the TL which is selling at a fraction of previous volumes, the TSX which was less well received than the model it replaced (although it has recovered to a degree, and then there is ZDX, and the ILX; which whether you want to admit it or not is not lighting the world ablaze with positive reviews.
Regardless, the fact remains that Acura's sales are a fraction of what what they were with a generation of product ago.
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owequitit
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Acura May sales +62% YTD +11%
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Pointing to Buick's bad results doesn't justify Acura's, and it certainly doesn't mean that the Verano with more power is an inferior car to any Acura product. |
....
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Buick doesn't get a pass... that is why all of you and your fanboy friends are in here bashing what a piece of crap the Verano is...
So to turn your own logic around on you, if Buick doesn't get a pass for shitty product, why should Acura?
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In that whole response to your rant about Acura sales not being what they were 5 years ago, never did I say anything bad about the Verano. I never bashed it.
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Yeah, the Verano bashing is all (or mostly all) on me. And yeah I am going to bash the Verano. The underlying engineering in the Verano is mediocre to obsolete, and it is grossly overweight. It's a much worse situation than the ILX.
Buick is probably going to have its ass handed to it by its co-workers at the Cadillac team. It looks like Caddy is actually trying with the ATS rather than throwing excessive horsepower into a platform that has neither the balance nor the mechanical underpinnings to take advantage of it.
Fanboy friends? LOL, you know better than that. I call it as I see it, and give specific reasons to justify my conclusions, whether they are good ones or bad ones. The ILX Hybrid certainly did not get a pass from me.
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Specifically, I was referring to people like Mr. Taggart and some of the others...
I am not necessarily defending the Verano, and god knows I haven't in the past, but it isn't the sole cause of Buicks problems either. And you certainly can't fault them for at least making an ATTEMPT to spice it up, which is obviously something Acura had no interest in with the ILX.
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Mr. Taggart
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owequitit wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Acura May sales +62% YTD +11%
|
Pointing to Buick's bad results doesn't justify Acura's, and it certainly doesn't mean that the Verano with more power is an inferior car to any Acura product. |
....
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Buick doesn't get a pass... that is why all of you and your fanboy friends are in here bashing what a piece of crap the Verano is...
So to turn your own logic around on you, if Buick doesn't get a pass for shitty product, why should Acura?
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In that whole response to your rant about Acura sales not being what they were 5 years ago, never did I say anything bad about the Verano. I never bashed it.
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Yeah, the Verano bashing is all (or mostly all) on me. And yeah I am going to bash the Verano. The underlying engineering in the Verano is mediocre to obsolete, and it is grossly overweight. It's a much worse situation than the ILX.
Buick is probably going to have its ass handed to it by its co-workers at the Cadillac team. It looks like Caddy is actually trying with the ATS rather than throwing excessive horsepower into a platform that has neither the balance nor the mechanical underpinnings to take advantage of it.
Fanboy friends? LOL, you know better than that. I call it as I see it, and give specific reasons to justify my conclusions, whether they are good ones or bad ones. The ILX Hybrid certainly did not get a pass from me.
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Specifically, I was referring to people like Mr. Taggart and some of the others...
I am not necessarily defending the Verano, and god knows I haven't in the past, but it isn't the sole cause of Buicks problems either. And you certainly can't fault them for at least making an ATTEMPT to spice it up, which is obviously something Acura had no interest in with the ILX.
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Funny I don't think I am a Honda, fanboy and have been quite critical of them. See the whole thread didicated to how Mulally at Ford has been more successful as a CEO than Ito. I would not call it being a fanboy.
And if you want to call someon a fanboy, reply to a post directly, but it is easier for you to use strawmen, the same thing you bash others for doing.
So let's review what you posted:
"Buick doesn't get a pass... that is why all of you and your fanboy friends are in here bashing what a piece of crap the Verano is...
So to turn your own logic around on you, if Buick doesn't get a pass for shitty product, why should Acura?
"
To which I retorted sarcastically that Ito was the best thing since sliced bread to mock people who see no wrong from Acura.
But I did note that although for quite a long time people have been posting here what a great job Buick was doing and how people would cross shop the Verano and Lucerne with Acura products that Buick's only real growth has been due to increased fleet sales. I also stated that the Verano is a warmed over Opel AND THAT THE ILX WAS A POORLY WARMED OVER OVER PRICED CIVIC.
So please defend your post on how people like ME defend Honda with a blind eye.
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Hondarulez
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CivicB18 wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
For the record, GM's 2.0T is quite good. I've sampled a lightly modified Saturn Sky Turbo and a Cobalt SS and the engine left a positive impression. If only Honda would have invested more in the former K23t.
Suggested EarthDreams K23t applications:
- CRV. The K23t would have been a good option for folks who prefer more squirt for the CRV, say making 240hp/265ftlbs.
- ILX 6MT. Same output as CRV with LSD and suspension/chassis enhancements.
- Base RDX engine. The V6 RDX would use the ED 310hp V6.
- 2.3t would replace the V6 TSX.
Acura certainly could use some diversity in the engine department!
~Patrick
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IMO, the main issue with the K23T is the lack of direct injection. Direct injection is needed to raise the compression ratio and thus the efficiency of the engine. Problem with DI is carbon deposit build up. Unlike other manufacturers, Honda doesn't want to keep their reputation of building good engines intact.
Another thing is, for Honda at the very least, there's really no reason to use a turbo 4. Others use turbo 4 to replace V6 to get better EPA numbers. Honda on the other hand is more interested in real world results. If one insists on looking at EPA figures, then look no further than the new RDX. It replaced the k23t with the good old J35. Sure, it has VCM, 6AT, and a simpler AWD system, but still, the EPA ratings got much better. For comparison, the RDX AWD gets EPA combined 22mpg, that is exactly the same as the Q5 2.0T with 8AT. The added benefits of the V6 are that the engine is smoother and there's no turbo lag.
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I'm fully aware of how DI works and its pros and cons. But the lack of direct injection wasnt the greatest issue with the K23t. It was actually the 5AT and its long ratios. Adding a 6AT to that engine would have improved a lot of drivability issues with this engine while improving performance and efficiency. People act like direct injection alone makes a huge difference in efficiency when in fact it doesnt. Better gearing, tweaks to the VVT system etc etc have proven to offer more real world efficiency gains vs direct injection. Those solutions are also much cheaper to implement.
Having a turbo 4 would give Acura a more diverse engine lineup and sharing that engine with a higher trim CRV would make it more justifiable in terms of cost. It would also allow smaller applications like the ILX to have a much more powerful version to make that car more desirable. A V6 won't fit in a Civic platform.
In terms of Honda wanting to keep their reputation intact, I don't know if youve been paying attention but the EarthDreams engine have direct injection. I'm sure Honda has engineered some kind of system so carbon buildup isnt an issue. DI is coming but as I said earlier a revamped K23t or a new 2.0t variant would be a great offering in several applications.
~Patrick
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I never thought the RDX with the K23T to be having drivability issues. There's turbo lag when you step on it, but it's similar to a Q5 2.0T. I agree that 6AT would help immensely, especially if the engine doesn't have much low end torque. We have already witnessed how the new 6AT has helped the MDX, Odyssey, and new RDX in terms of acceleration. Fuel economy gain is minimal though (1 mpg better overall in the MDX I believe). The thing is, the 5th gear on the 5AT was already very long. Engineers can't gear the 6th gear on the 6AT much longer.
DI alone doesn't make a huge difference for NA engines. But it does for turbocharged engines. The CR of the 1st gen RDX is only 8.8:1. Audi Q5 2.0T is at 9.6:1. That's a 10% difference, which IMO is pretty significant. That, along with with 3 more gears, a lighter curb weight, and some other things, account for the significant EPA differences.
I believe the K23T does not even fit in the TSX, let alone the Civic. You might say Honda could've designed the K23T and the Civic so that they are compatible. But the same can be said with the J series and the Civic. There's actually a kit that you can buy to retrofit a J series into an EK Civic (EG too, but you might need to cut a hole on the hood). The J series is one of the most compact V6 engines out there in the market. I believe someone said it's actually smaller than some turbo-4 engines. With a turbo 4, you need to worry about intercooler, the extra piping, the turbo system itself, etc that all take up space and weight.
Of course I know the ED has DI. And that's my point. ED is coming out soon, that means it's not quite ready yet. So perhaps Honda has figured out a way to eliminate carbon build up, but it's not available at this very moment.And that means they cannot have K23T with DI at this very moment. Perhaps that is something they will look at in the future? Perhaps they will come up with a turbo 4 engine that can truly replace a V6 without any side effects?
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I wasnt suggesting a proposed turbo 4 to replace a V6 but rather offer such an engine in the applications aforementioned.
In regards to the K23t, I believe the 5AT was that drivetrains weakest link as the closer ratios of a 6AT and some other improvements/refinements could have made that engine really good. Unfortunately, Honda didn't see it in the same light.
~Patrick
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I can see your point.
It's just that, from my understanding, the idea to use a smaller, boosted engine (ie. turbo 4 to replace V6) is to get better fuel efficiency. For manufacturers, if they can do with less, then they will probably go that way. So, if they can get by with a NA-4, and a V6, then they will probably skip the Turbo-4. Similarly, if they can get by with a NA-4 and a Turbo-4, then they will probably not have a V6. This is obviously assuming the turbo-4 and V6 have similar power ratings.
In your previous post(s), you mentioned that a better K23t (ie. DI, 6AT, other tech, etc) would be decent for the CR-V, TSX, and ILX. I think that would depend on how much better the K23T would be. I'm guessing to you, a turbo-4 is better because of theoretically better mpg and it's lighter/smaller. I'm saying that a refined K23T is probably not much lighter/smaller than a J series, and it will probably take quite a bit of work to get better mpg.
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Again I'm not suggesting a revamped K23t/K20t should replace a V6 but could be implemented in a few smaller applications such as a base engine for an RDX which will eventually recieve the ED 310hp 3.5 V6. A turbo 4 would be a great base engine for the RDX and maybe even bring the price of entry down a bit. Connect it to a 6AT or that 7DCT and it could be quit a package. The CRV, ILX Type S and the TSX could also use it to spread cost. It could also be used across the pond as turbo 4's are quite popular there.
Again, Acura has to think on a global scale as they can't afford to just cater to the U.S. and Chinese markets. With that said a more diverse engine lineup would help the brand become desirable in markets yet to be penetrated by the brand. The more volume the brand can sell the more profits can be made and the more independent and sustainable the brand can become. The end result is better products that differrentiate themselves even further from the Honda brand.
~Patrick
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Like I said, I understand your point. I was merely explaining possible reasons as to why Honda isn't doing what you have described here. I can definitely see a market with a turbo 4, especially for markets that have regulations on engine displacement (i.e.: higher insurance rate if engine displacement is larger). It's just that, as I have mentioned before, perhaps Honda did not have the know-how, or may be they felt that it wasn't worth it, to have a turbo 4 when the V6 can do a better job.
So using your examples...
RDX/CR-V - Right now, the FWD V6 model starts at $34k. Theoretically, how much cheaper can it get with a turbo-4 engine without getting too close to the CR-V? There's currently a $3k difference between a Q5 2.0T Premium Plus and a Q5 3.2 Premium Plus. Let's say the RDX turbo-4 starts at $2.5 cheaper than the V6, that would make it a $31.5-$32k car. A fully loaded CR-V is at $30k. Wouldn't that be a bit too close? And now, use this same turbo-4 engine in the top of the line CR-V. This would probably at a $2k premium to the current top trim. That would equate to $32k, or the same as the imaginary RDX Turbo. Will there be internal competition?
ILX Type S - I like that idea to be honest. Probably easy to get extra power too! Not saying a V6 would be a better option, but Honda can engineering the car to fit the J series too (J series is very compact).
I
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owequitit
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
owequitit wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Acura May sales +62% YTD +11%
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Pointing to Buick's bad results doesn't justify Acura's, and it certainly doesn't mean that the Verano with more power is an inferior car to any Acura product. |
....
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Buick doesn't get a pass... that is why all of you and your fanboy friends are in here bashing what a piece of crap the Verano is...
So to turn your own logic around on you, if Buick doesn't get a pass for shitty product, why should Acura?
|
In that whole response to your rant about Acura sales not being what they were 5 years ago, never did I say anything bad about the Verano. I never bashed it.
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Yeah, the Verano bashing is all (or mostly all) on me. And yeah I am going to bash the Verano. The underlying engineering in the Verano is mediocre to obsolete, and it is grossly overweight. It's a much worse situation than the ILX.
Buick is probably going to have its ass handed to it by its co-workers at the Cadillac team. It looks like Caddy is actually trying with the ATS rather than throwing excessive horsepower into a platform that has neither the balance nor the mechanical underpinnings to take advantage of it.
Fanboy friends? LOL, you know better than that. I call it as I see it, and give specific reasons to justify my conclusions, whether they are good ones or bad ones. The ILX Hybrid certainly did not get a pass from me.
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Specifically, I was referring to people like Mr. Taggart and some of the others...
I am not necessarily defending the Verano, and god knows I haven't in the past, but it isn't the sole cause of Buicks problems either. And you certainly can't fault them for at least making an ATTEMPT to spice it up, which is obviously something Acura had no interest in with the ILX.
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Funny I don't think I am a Honda, fanboy and have been quite critical of them. See the whole thread didicated to how Mulally at Ford has been more successful as a CEO than Ito. I would not call it being a fanboy.
And if you want to call someon a fanboy, reply to a post directly, but it is easier for you to use strawmen, the same thing you bash others for doing.
So let's review what you posted:
"Buick doesn't get a pass... that is why all of you and your fanboy friends are in here bashing what a piece of crap the Verano is...
So to turn your own logic around on you, if Buick doesn't get a pass for shitty product, why should Acura?
"
To which I retorted sarcastically that Ito was the best thing since sliced bread to mock people who see no wrong from Acura.
But I did note that although for quite a long time people have been posting here what a great job Buick was doing and how people would cross shop the Verano and Lucerne with Acura products that Buick's only real growth has been due to increased fleet sales. I also stated that the Verano is a warmed over Opel AND THAT THE ILX WAS A POORLY WARMED OVER OVER PRICED CIVIC.
So please defend your post on how people like ME defend Honda with a blind eye.
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Yeah, sorry about that Mr. Taggart. Long day yesterday... I think I had you confused with Dr. Whiner. There is a whole influx of new "Honda is perfect" people, and I probably got the roles reversed. Often, I agree with what you say.
My mistake.
Also, to those who say we are off base "whining," it is pretty clear that Honda is starting to understand that we are right about the quality, fun to drive, and general enjoyment of the product...
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owequitit
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owequitit wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
owequitit wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Acura May sales +62% YTD +11%
|
Pointing to Buick's bad results doesn't justify Acura's, and it certainly doesn't mean that the Verano with more power is an inferior car to any Acura product. |
....
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Buick doesn't get a pass... that is why all of you and your fanboy friends are in here bashing what a piece of crap the Verano is...
So to turn your own logic around on you, if Buick doesn't get a pass for shitty product, why should Acura?
|
In that whole response to your rant about Acura sales not being what they were 5 years ago, never did I say anything bad about the Verano. I never bashed it.
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Yeah, the Verano bashing is all (or mostly all) on me. And yeah I am going to bash the Verano. The underlying engineering in the Verano is mediocre to obsolete, and it is grossly overweight. It's a much worse situation than the ILX.
Buick is probably going to have its ass handed to it by its co-workers at the Cadillac team. It looks like Caddy is actually trying with the ATS rather than throwing excessive horsepower into a platform that has neither the balance nor the mechanical underpinnings to take advantage of it.
Fanboy friends? LOL, you know better than that. I call it as I see it, and give specific reasons to justify my conclusions, whether they are good ones or bad ones. The ILX Hybrid certainly did not get a pass from me.
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Specifically, I was referring to people like Mr. Taggart and some of the others...
I am not necessarily defending the Verano, and god knows I haven't in the past, but it isn't the sole cause of Buicks problems either. And you certainly can't fault them for at least making an ATTEMPT to spice it up, which is obviously something Acura had no interest in with the ILX.
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Funny I don't think I am a Honda, fanboy and have been quite critical of them. See the whole thread didicated to how Mulally at Ford has been more successful as a CEO than Ito. I would not call it being a fanboy.
And if you want to call someon a fanboy, reply to a post directly, but it is easier for you to use strawmen, the same thing you bash others for doing.
So let's review what you posted:
"Buick doesn't get a pass... that is why all of you and your fanboy friends are in here bashing what a piece of crap the Verano is...
So to turn your own logic around on you, if Buick doesn't get a pass for shitty product, why should Acura?
"
To which I retorted sarcastically that Ito was the best thing since sliced bread to mock people who see no wrong from Acura.
But I did note that although for quite a long time people have been posting here what a great job Buick was doing and how people would cross shop the Verano and Lucerne with Acura products that Buick's only real growth has been due to increased fleet sales. I also stated that the Verano is a warmed over Opel AND THAT THE ILX WAS A POORLY WARMED OVER OVER PRICED CIVIC.
So please defend your post on how people like ME defend Honda with a blind eye.
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Yeah, sorry about that Mr. Taggart. Long day yesterday... I think I had you confused with Dr. Whiner. There is a whole influx of new "Honda is perfect" people, and I probably got the roles reversed. Often, I agree with what you say.
My mistake.
Also, to those who say we are off base "whining," it is pretty clear that Honda is starting to understand that we are right about the quality, fun to drive, and general enjoyment of the product...
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HondaFan1990 would have been a better use of names. Here he is telling us that Acura hasn't lost 50% of their sales since the ~2004-2007 timeframe when they were in the top 2 luxury brands sales wise, and now they are 5 or 6...
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Mr. Taggart
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Owe,
Thanks for the reply. Keep working those long days so our government programs won't empty quite as quickly! Been working alot too and I should have been a little more polite in my response.
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owequitit
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HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Acura May sales +62% YTD +11%
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And that value is where compared to 5 years ago? IIRC, it is about half. So that is like saying good job for raising your sales and still being 40% below where you were before you released all the new controversial models. It is easy to take a short term snapshot and make it look good. The truth is that Acura's performance still sucks compared to even a few years ago. Pointing to Buick's bad results doesn't justify Acura's, and it certainly doesn't mean that the Verano with more power is an inferior car to any Acura product.
To be honest, Buick has a lot of problems, but they have had them for a long time. so to expect them to reverse right away is not realistic.
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Well if Buick gets a pass for having problems, why doesn't Acura? Both sales aren't anything special but Buick's continual spiral of less sales is "alright" of sorts and nothing should be expected to turn around soon, but Acura, whose sales aren't what they used to be 5 years ago but actually improving is "wrong"? Buick started to turn around (slowly) with the introduction of the Enclave and Lucerne. If I'm not mistaken, the Lucerne came out in 2006, Enclave in 2007 or so. Now they have the new Regal and Verano also. Pointing at Acura and telling them about themselves before "controversial models" does nothing. You won't always be "on top". You will fall and stumble and then pick yourself up, hopefully. Buick has been trying to turn themselves around from the "old people's brand" since those two aforementioned models and Acura has been trying to find themselves in that same amount of time from their sales peak to their decline as of late. Buick seems to have found some mojo and Acrua does too if the RDX, NSX and RLX have anything to say for it. Time will tell, but pointing at Acura in defense of the pointing at Buick gets us nowhere.
And what models does Acura have that's so controversial? The ZDX comes to mind and that's it. Certainly not the ILX. What would be wrong with that car that shouldn't agree with most people? Or maybe it's styling.....which is subjective....cause I know people that thought the 04-08 TL was ugly and LOVE the current body....
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Buick doesn't get a pass... that is why all of you and your fanboy friends are in here bashing what a piece of crap the Verano is...
So to turn your own logic around on you, if Buick doesn't get a pass for shitty product, why should Acura?
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In that whole response to your rant about Acura sales not being what they were 5 years ago, never did I say anything bad about the Verano. I never bashed it. And if we're fanboys, the rest of you are bitches cause that's all I hear most of you "Swear I know every damn thing" posters on here do. We know everything ain't peaches and cream, but damn, life ain't all black and dark at Honda/Acura.
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You've been here for what, about 3 months now?
Let me put some relative perspective on your experience level.
Not only have I been here just about since the site upened, but I have been traditionally one of the most vocal defenders of Honda, to a point.
That point was about the point of the ZDX and 9th gen Civic, when ANY long term Honda fan with half a brain could detect that Honda was no longer on the right path. So before you act like a normal Honda fanboy and jump all over me, why don't you take a brief moment of time to go look at my previous post history prior to that point? It begs the question that if multi-decade loyal Honda customers are unhappy, sales are down, brand perception is decreasing, and the competition is stealing market share, then how could Honda POSSIBLY be on the "right" path????
The reality is that Honda can only go so far towards being GM before traditionally loyal buyers do a 180.
And at least when I bitch, I provide alternate solutions, unlike you who can only praise what they do.
P.S. The attacking of the Verano Turbo started when people started having to post relative figures to the ILX to try and "prove" that the ILX wasn't a piece of shit in comparison. The flaw with that strategy is two fold. First, if the ILX isn't a piece of shit, everyone will know it without any comparison. Second, comparing one piece of shit to another piece of shit and then proclaiming that Acura "gets it" because their turd is less shitty still makes it a turd.
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owequitit
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
Owe,
Thanks for the reply. Keep working those long days so our government programs won't empty quite as quickly! Been working alot too and I should have been a little more polite in my response.
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Yeah, it was an 18 hour day, and I lost track of who was who.
I simply feel like we have had to complain 10x as loud because Honda was so focused on focus groups and we have to be heard over the muffling actions of the VTEC SS.
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DCR
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Well, at least we have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on Honda products, and have spent years of seat time, versus someone who hasn't spent a fucking dime on one but can apparently be the voice of reason.
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NSXforever
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
NSXforever wrote:
The Verano has gotten really solid reviews and this engine has also gotten solid reviews. If the price is around 26k, you can have 240hp or 150hp ILX.
Buick is on a tear and the Acura/Buick battle will be interesting.
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Guess you haven't been paying attention to Buick's continuing decline in sales.... They are on a tear alright... a tear to join Pontiac and Oldsmobile...
From Autonews:
"Buick sales have dropped for seven straight months, tied with Cadillac for the longest losing streak among the 41 brands sold in the United States. But unlike Cadillac, which has two new nameplates coming this summer, Buick doesn't have new or redesigned vehicles riding to the rescue. "
http://www.autonews.com/article/20120528/RETAIL07/305289970#ixzz1xcxoAcrp
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So its similar to every article about Acura the last 5+ years? Its amazing to see the commentary about the Verano when the ILX seems to be a worse proposition. The Verano is selling well and early reports show the ILX is struggling, good luck with 40k sales a year.
Both cars are based on other cars (Opel/Civic) both are FWD, both priced in the 20s, both are gateway vehicles under entry level luxury cars. The Verano now offers a much more powerful engine.
Maybe some of the opposition to Buick is that Buick now competes head on with Acura and in this case seems to have a superior product in the Verano. This could not be said a few years ago. Buick has raised their game.
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Mr. Taggart
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NSXforever wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
NSXforever wrote:
The Verano has gotten really solid reviews and this engine has also gotten solid reviews. If the price is around 26k, you can have 240hp or 150hp ILX.
Buick is on a tear and the Acura/Buick battle will be interesting.
|
Guess you haven't been paying attention to Buick's continuing decline in sales.... They are on a tear alright... a tear to join Pontiac and Oldsmobile...
From Autonews:
"Buick sales have dropped for seven straight months, tied with Cadillac for the longest losing streak among the 41 brands sold in the United States. But unlike Cadillac, which has two new nameplates coming this summer, Buick doesn't have new or redesigned vehicles riding to the rescue. "
http://www.autonews.com/article/20120528/RETAIL07/305289970#ixzz1xcxoAcrp
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So its similar to every article about Acura the last 5+ years? Its amazing to see the commentary about the Verano when the ILX seems to be a worse proposition. The Verano is selling well and early reports show the ILX is struggling, good luck with 40k sales a year.
Both cars are based on other cars (Opel/Civic) both are FWD, both priced in the 20s, both are gateway vehicles under entry level luxury cars. The Verano now offers a much more powerful engine.
Maybe some of the opposition to Buick is that Buick now competes head on with Acura and in this case seems to have a superior product in the Verano. This could not be said a few years ago. Buick has raised their game.
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Buick may compete in YOUR mind against Acura and in Buick's literature but there is very little cross shopping between the two brands. There was an article published quite a while ago that mentioned who was most cross shopped with Buick and it the list did not include Acura.
The Verano is based on over a five year old Opel while the Civic is about two years old. And as owe pointed out the Verano and ILX are both turds, just turds of different colors and shapes so I would not call one another 'worse'.
Buicks whole game raising was selling more and more cars to rental companies to prop up sales. You think that is good??
Acura has never sold in significant numbers to the rental lots so Buick's peformance relative to Acura's is even worse.
I do not think there is a lot of opposition to Buick but rather that when you come here and crow about a brand in worse shape it should be balanced with the truth.
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superchg2
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While the Verano and ILX may not be cross shopped, GM has really improved their small car offerings.
The General however, really needs to put cars like the Cruze/Verano on a weight loss program, since they cross the scales about 500 lbs. heavier than comparably sized cars like the Civic/ILX.
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DCR
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Acura thinks they will be cross shopped:
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Mr. Taggart
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Go to an Audi dealer and ask customers in the lot what they thought of the Verano. Same thing at Lexus dealership. The actual customers will scoff at you.
If the geniues who dreamed up the vehicle think that the Verano which starts at the same price as a Civic then it explains why the car will be an adject failure. They must have came up with these comparison in their 'focus groups'.
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atomiclightbulb
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NSXforever wrote:
The Verano is selling well and early reports show the ILX is struggling, good luck with 40k sales a year.
Both cars are based on other cars (Opel/Civic) both are FWD, both priced in the 20s, both are gateway vehicles under entry level luxury cars. The Verano now offers a much more powerful engine.
Maybe some of the opposition to Buick is that Buick now competes head on with Acura and in this case seems to have a superior product in the Verano. This could not be said a few years ago. Buick has raised their game. |
Do you actually know anything about these vehicles, and did you even bother to read the thread before commenting?
If you think the Verano is "superior", I have a bridge in the middle of Arizona to sell you.
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DCR
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Beware...comments section is rough.
http://wot.motortrend.com/thread-of-the-day-which-would-you-pick-acura-ilx-or-buick-verano-195289.html
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owequitit
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
NSXforever wrote:
The Verano is selling well and early reports show the ILX is struggling, good luck with 40k sales a year.
Both cars are based on other cars (Opel/Civic) both are FWD, both priced in the 20s, both are gateway vehicles under entry level luxury cars. The Verano now offers a much more powerful engine.
Maybe some of the opposition to Buick is that Buick now competes head on with Acura and in this case seems to have a superior product in the Verano. This could not be said a few years ago. Buick has raised their game. |
Do you actually know anything about these vehicles, and did you even bother to read the thread before commenting?
If you think the Verano is "superior", I have a bridge in the middle of Arizona to sell you.
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The London Bridge is not for sale, nor is it in the middle of Arizona. It is on the west coast about 3-5 miles from the border, and is in roughly the geometric center in terms of latitude.
I believe the bridge you are looking for is in Brooklyn...
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atomiclightbulb
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I glanced briefly at the comments. Not much in the way of intelligent conversation or analysis there, but I didn't expect any to begin with so it was mildly amusing.
What really stood out to me were the "Buy American" versus "F*** Gov't Motors/Unions" comments.
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DCR
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The article links to the MT review of the Verano, which they apparently liked.
It illustrates that the ILX and Verano are compared, will be cross-shopped and I do not think that really matters in the end.
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HondaFan1990
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owequitit wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Acura May sales +62% YTD +11%
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And that value is where compared to 5 years ago? IIRC, it is about half. So that is like saying good job for raising your sales and still being 40% below where you were before you released all the new controversial models. It is easy to take a short term snapshot and make it look good. The truth is that Acura's performance still sucks compared to even a few years ago. Pointing to Buick's bad results doesn't justify Acura's, and it certainly doesn't mean that the Verano with more power is an inferior car to any Acura product.
To be honest, Buick has a lot of problems, but they have had them for a long time. so to expect them to reverse right away is not realistic.
|
Well if Buick gets a pass for having problems, why doesn't Acura? Both sales aren't anything special but Buick's continual spiral of less sales is "alright" of sorts and nothing should be expected to turn around soon, but Acura, whose sales aren't what they used to be 5 years ago but actually improving is "wrong"? Buick started to turn around (slowly) with the introduction of the Enclave and Lucerne. If I'm not mistaken, the Lucerne came out in 2006, Enclave in 2007 or so. Now they have the new Regal and Verano also. Pointing at Acura and telling them about themselves before "controversial models" does nothing. You won't always be "on top". You will fall and stumble and then pick yourself up, hopefully. Buick has been trying to turn themselves around from the "old people's brand" since those two aforementioned models and Acura has been trying to find themselves in that same amount of time from their sales peak to their decline as of late. Buick seems to have found some mojo and Acrua does too if the RDX, NSX and RLX have anything to say for it. Time will tell, but pointing at Acura in defense of the pointing at Buick gets us nowhere.
And what models does Acura have that's so controversial? The ZDX comes to mind and that's it. Certainly not the ILX. What would be wrong with that car that shouldn't agree with most people? Or maybe it's styling.....which is subjective....cause I know people that thought the 04-08 TL was ugly and LOVE the current body....
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Buick doesn't get a pass... that is why all of you and your fanboy friends are in here bashing what a piece of crap the Verano is...
So to turn your own logic around on you, if Buick doesn't get a pass for shitty product, why should Acura?
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In that whole response to your rant about Acura sales not being what they were 5 years ago, never did I say anything bad about the Verano. I never bashed it. And if we're fanboys, the rest of you are bitches cause that's all I hear most of you "Swear I know every damn thing" posters on here do. We know everything ain't peaches and cream, but damn, life ain't all black and dark at Honda/Acura.
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You've been here for what, about 3 months now?
Let me put some relative perspective on your experience level.
Not only have I been here just about since the site upened, but I have been traditionally one of the most vocal defenders of Honda, to a point.
That point was about the point of the ZDX and 9th gen Civic, when ANY long term Honda fan with half a brain could detect that Honda was no longer on the right path. So before you act like a normal Honda fanboy and jump all over me, why don't you take a brief moment of time to go look at my previous post history prior to that point? It begs the question that if multi-decade loyal Honda customers are unhappy, sales are down, brand perception is decreasing, and the competition is stealing market share, then how could Honda POSSIBLY be on the "right" path????
The reality is that Honda can only go so far towards being GM before traditionally loyal buyers do a 180.
And at least when I bitch, I provide alternate solutions, unlike you who can only praise what they do.
P.S. The attacking of the Verano Turbo started when people started having to post relative figures to the ILX to try and "prove" that the ILX wasn't a piece of shit in comparison. The flaw with that strategy is two fold. First, if the ILX isn't a piece of shit, everyone will know it without any comparison. Second, comparing one piece of shit to another piece of shit and then proclaiming that Acura "gets it" because their turd is less shitty still makes it a turd.
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I hope this doesn't come off wrong, but after getting only 3 hours of sleep and juggling two jobs today, this may just come out wrong:
You could have been on this forum since God created Adam and Eve, let alone Honda way down along the line. That fact alone is irrelevant to me, since I can't even try to remotely care about how you feel towards any particular subject regarding Honda Motor Company right now. I'm sorry but in the words of my 90+ year old grandmother:
"I can't conjure up a fuck to give you at the moment."
You being vocal or pro or anti or whatever. It all means diddly squat to me. I'm just in that type of mood right now. Do you care? Probably not. Do I care if you care? You still see a response to this now don't you? Okay....
Now about the ILX/other Bullshit :
I try to see things in a positive light. Glass half full instead of half empty. I've had so much negative in my life, that all I ask for is just an ounce of positive. With the ILX, it's not the savior of the brand for damn sure. WE ALL KNOW THAT SHIT! HOW MANY TIMES DOES THAT NEED TO BE SAID????? Why keep harboring on that??? That changes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL!
Of course the car could be cheaper or offer more for the money or not even exist as an Acura but instead as what the Civic should've been. But it's here, in the Acura dealership named ILX, selling slowly and all that jazz. IT IS WHAT IT IS. But why are we only focusing on what it does wrong? There are a few things it does do right, just like Honda as an overall brand. But so many things get lost in translation because all we see is negative. And I know Honda needs help, for sure I know that, but nothings gonna happen overnight. Once the Accord comes out, in all of it's "New Honda" splendor, THEN WE CAN JUDGE IF THEY ARE ON THE RIGHT PATH!!!!
Nothing about the ILX is new Honda from what I see. It's all existing stuff. We're gonna see if the company is on the right path by judging the ILX? Why? Makes no sense.
Honda's having a rough time. We all can agree to that. Like you said, so much is working against them from brand perception to loyal customers and all that other stuff. Fine. But all while we are discussing their downfall, their comeback car is being plotted NOW to see how they move forward. Until the new Accord comes out, discussing the nonexistent sales of the ZDX and RL or the terrible press/response to the 9th gen Civic or how the ILX won't sale 40k a year, all adds up to nothing if you ask me. Now if Honda is still fucked up when the new Accord comes out, new engines and all, call me. Until then, we should all just wait and see. We've already acknowledged the shortcomings. And making proposals out of our ass about what we feel should be done by the higher ranking people won't change unless we're actually one of the higher up people. I can say all day and night Honda should make an ILX hatch with turbo 4 and 6 speed manual, but that honestly wouldn't get me anywhere besides upset that they don't...
Lastly:
A guy pulled up in a black ILX yesterday at work. Just got it. 2.4 Premium. I asked him how did he like it. He said he was very impressed with the car and glad of his purchase. He said the negative stuff he read about it didn't translate as negatives for him when he drove it. He read many different reviews all half baked on it and still bought it. Said he didn't care. Was it the perfect car? No, but he said it was perfect for him. The lady down the street from me with the new Verano said the same thing. It was perfect for her, even if she was told to just get a loaded Cruze instead.
Lastly again:
You don't know me. You don't know my experience level. I don't know yours, nor would I try to place something on your "experience level". We're all adults on here, I think. Just say the shit and call it a day.
And traditional buyers may just need to leave and go to another brand. Speaking with the wallet will get the point across to Honda more than speaking on here will. Keep slipping and falling, you should eventually want to stand up right?
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CarPhreakD
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DCR wrote:
The article links to the MT review of the Verano, which they apparently liked.
It illustrates that the ILX and Verano are compared, will be cross-shopped and I do not think that really matters in the end.
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They will be. The question is whether or not the turbo 250hp/6mt Verano model will tip the sales equations in Buick's favour, and I say probably not. It's going to be the base models doing the sale battles here, and is the 150hp ILX going to have what it takes to woo millenials?
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DCR
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HondaFan1990 wrote:
A guy pulled up in a black ILX yesterday at work. Just got it. 2.4 Premium. I asked him how did he like it. He said he was very impressed with the car and glad of his purchase. He said the negative stuff he read about it didn't translate as negatives for him when he drove it. He read many different reviews all half baked on it and still bought it. Said he didn't care. Was it the perfect car? No, but he said it was perfect for him. The lady down the street from me with the new Verano said the same thing. It was perfect for her, even if she was told to just get a loaded Cruze instead.
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Bullshit. You are full of it.
Were you just standing in the parking lot when "the guy" at work pulled in? Neat how your little interview reinforces all of your beliefs.
Pretty familiar with the old lady down the street with a Verano? What a joke.
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owequitit
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HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Acura May sales +62% YTD +11%
|
And that value is where compared to 5 years ago? IIRC, it is about half. So that is like saying good job for raising your sales and still being 40% below where you were before you released all the new controversial models. It is easy to take a short term snapshot and make it look good. The truth is that Acura's performance still sucks compared to even a few years ago. Pointing to Buick's bad results doesn't justify Acura's, and it certainly doesn't mean that the Verano with more power is an inferior car to any Acura product.
To be honest, Buick has a lot of problems, but they have had them for a long time. so to expect them to reverse right away is not realistic.
|
Well if Buick gets a pass for having problems, why doesn't Acura? Both sales aren't anything special but Buick's continual spiral of less sales is "alright" of sorts and nothing should be expected to turn around soon, but Acura, whose sales aren't what they used to be 5 years ago but actually improving is "wrong"? Buick started to turn around (slowly) with the introduction of the Enclave and Lucerne. If I'm not mistaken, the Lucerne came out in 2006, Enclave in 2007 or so. Now they have the new Regal and Verano also. Pointing at Acura and telling them about themselves before "controversial models" does nothing. You won't always be "on top". You will fall and stumble and then pick yourself up, hopefully. Buick has been trying to turn themselves around from the "old people's brand" since those two aforementioned models and Acura has been trying to find themselves in that same amount of time from their sales peak to their decline as of late. Buick seems to have found some mojo and Acrua does too if the RDX, NSX and RLX have anything to say for it. Time will tell, but pointing at Acura in defense of the pointing at Buick gets us nowhere.
And what models does Acura have that's so controversial? The ZDX comes to mind and that's it. Certainly not the ILX. What would be wrong with that car that shouldn't agree with most people? Or maybe it's styling.....which is subjective....cause I know people that thought the 04-08 TL was ugly and LOVE the current body....
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Buick doesn't get a pass... that is why all of you and your fanboy friends are in here bashing what a piece of crap the Verano is...
So to turn your own logic around on you, if Buick doesn't get a pass for shitty product, why should Acura?
|
In that whole response to your rant about Acura sales not being what they were 5 years ago, never did I say anything bad about the Verano. I never bashed it. And if we're fanboys, the rest of you are bitches cause that's all I hear most of you "Swear I know every damn thing" posters on here do. We know everything ain't peaches and cream, but damn, life ain't all black and dark at Honda/Acura.
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You've been here for what, about 3 months now?
Let me put some relative perspective on your experience level.
Not only have I been here just about since the site upened, but I have been traditionally one of the most vocal defenders of Honda, to a point.
That point was about the point of the ZDX and 9th gen Civic, when ANY long term Honda fan with half a brain could detect that Honda was no longer on the right path. So before you act like a normal Honda fanboy and jump all over me, why don't you take a brief moment of time to go look at my previous post history prior to that point? It begs the question that if multi-decade loyal Honda customers are unhappy, sales are down, brand perception is decreasing, and the competition is stealing market share, then how could Honda POSSIBLY be on the "right" path????
The reality is that Honda can only go so far towards being GM before traditionally loyal buyers do a 180.
And at least when I bitch, I provide alternate solutions, unlike you who can only praise what they do.
P.S. The attacking of the Verano Turbo started when people started having to post relative figures to the ILX to try and "prove" that the ILX wasn't a piece of shit in comparison. The flaw with that strategy is two fold. First, if the ILX isn't a piece of shit, everyone will know it without any comparison. Second, comparing one piece of shit to another piece of shit and then proclaiming that Acura "gets it" because their turd is less shitty still makes it a turd.
|
I hope this doesn't come off wrong, but after getting only 3 hours of sleep and juggling two jobs today, this may just come out wrong:
You could have been on this forum since God created Adam and Eve, let alone Honda way down along the line. That fact alone is irrelevant to me, since I can't even try to remotely care about how you feel towards any particular subject regarding Honda Motor Company right now. I'm sorry but in the words of my 90+ year old grandmother:
"I can't conjure up a fuck to give you at the moment."
You being vocal or pro or anti or whatever. It all means diddly squat to me. I'm just in that type of mood right now. Do you care? Probably not. Do I care if you care? You still see a response to this now don't you? Okay....
Now about the ILX/other Bullshit :
I try to see things in a positive light. Glass half full instead of half empty. I've had so much negative in my life, that all I ask for is just an ounce of positive. With the ILX, it's not the savior of the brand for damn sure. WE ALL KNOW THAT SHIT! HOW MANY TIMES DOES THAT NEED TO BE SAID????? Why keep harboring on that??? That changes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL!
Of course the car could be cheaper or offer more for the money or not even exist as an Acura but instead as what the Civic should've been. But it's here, in the Acura dealership named ILX, selling slowly and all that jazz. IT IS WHAT IT IS. But why are we only focusing on what it does wrong? There are a few things it does do right, just like Honda as an overall brand. But so many things get lost in translation because all we see is negative. And I know Honda needs help, for sure I know that, but nothings gonna happen overnight. Once the Accord comes out, in all of it's "New Honda" splendor, THEN WE CAN JUDGE IF THEY ARE ON THE RIGHT PATH!!!!
Nothing about the ILX is new Honda from what I see. It's all existing stuff. We're gonna see if the company is on the right path by judging the ILX? Why? Makes no sense.
Honda's having a rough time. We all can agree to that. Like you said, so much is working against them from brand perception to loyal customers and all that other stuff. Fine. But all while we are discussing their downfall, their comeback car is being plotted NOW to see how they move forward. Until the new Accord comes out, discussing the nonexistent sales of the ZDX and RL or the terrible press/response to the 9th gen Civic or how the ILX won't sale 40k a year, all adds up to nothing if you ask me. Now if Honda is still fucked up when the new Accord comes out, new engines and all, call me. Until then, we should all just wait and see. We've already acknowledged the shortcomings. And making proposals out of our ass about what we feel should be done by the higher ranking people won't change unless we're actually one of the higher up people. I can say all day and night Honda should make an ILX hatch with turbo 4 and 6 speed manual, but that honestly wouldn't get me anywhere besides upset that they don't...
Lastly:
A guy pulled up in a black ILX yesterday at work. Just got it. 2.4 Premium. I asked him how did he like it. He said he was very impressed with the car and glad of his purchase. He said the negative stuff he read about it didn't translate as negatives for him when he drove it. He read many different reviews all half baked on it and still bought it. Said he didn't care. Was it the perfect car? No, but he said it was perfect for him. The lady down the street from me with the new Verano said the same thing. It was perfect for her, even if she was told to just get a loaded Cruze instead.
Lastly again:
You don't know me. You don't know my experience level. I don't know yours, nor would I try to place something on your "experience level". We're all adults on here, I think. Just say the shit and call it a day.
And traditional buyers may just need to leave and go to another brand. Speaking with the wallet will get the point across to Honda more than speaking on here will. Keep slipping and falling, you should eventually want to stand up right?
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You can choose to see anything however you want. It neither adds credibility nor creedance to Honda's poor choices. When even Honda is saying they are poor, then it doesn't really matter what all of the positive pansies want to say.
I was positive at one point too. But Honda actually made good product at that point (like your beloved 4th gen Accord, which some current Honda product can't compare to in many ways). The problem was that after 10 years of Honda pulling a GM (ever cheaper, ever less refined, increasing quality issues, etc) even an optimist has to eventually realize that everything is not swell and dandy.
Zero ILX sales from one of the biggest Acura dealers in one of the biggest markets only serves to reinforce that. It isn't about positive or negative, it is about a no bullshit assesment of where Honda stands.
You can project, rationalize, or justify Honda's poor behavior all you want. I could give two shits. I care about one thing, and one thing only. That is Honda producing shit that makes sense, makes their customers happy, and ultimately sells and keeps people (like me, who is well over 10 Honda products) in the fold. Not because I am an investor, salesman, employee, or executive, but because Honda is the company that most aligns with my automotive values, when they aren't busy focusing on next quarter's profit margin (which, ironically, is the same thing that killed GM and Ford), saving $.02 on an interior, etc.
Now, to put this in relative perspective, compare the current crop of Chrysler interiors, which are garnering rave reviews, compared to 5 years ago. The cost difference? $107. No offense, but no matter how optimistic you THINK you are, it is absolutely assinine to bankrupt yourself over $107, which amounts to LESS than 1% of the total transaction. It is flawed management, poor business, and bullshit. Period. The ILX happens to have a decent interior. Great. But why is a brand new car with a lower price of entry NOT moving off the lots? Simple economics says that it SHOULD currently be Acura's volume seller, and especially during the first 3 months of production when buzz and consumer anticipation are as high as they are going to get.
No matter how you spin it, the ILX is going to end up just like the current RL, the ZDX, the first gen RDX and several other notable historical products because Acura did not provide a product that appeals to the intended market. Simple as that. There is nothing optimistic in spending billions on product that doesn't sell. You guys bitch that we are unrealistic wanting a version that was a little bit sportier (you have spent how many posts trying to tell me that a $300 LSD is unrealistic), and yet, I am supposed to be OK with Acura literally spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a car that sells nothing? PUHLEASE. That isn't optimism, it is poor decision making.
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HondaFan1990
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DCR wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
A guy pulled up in a black ILX yesterday at work. Just got it. 2.4 Premium. I asked him how did he like it. He said he was very impressed with the car and glad of his purchase. He said the negative stuff he read about it didn't translate as negatives for him when he drove it. He read many different reviews all half baked on it and still bought it. Said he didn't care. Was it the perfect car? No, but he said it was perfect for him. The lady down the street from me with the new Verano said the same thing. It was perfect for her, even if she was told to just get a loaded Cruze instead.
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Bullshit. You are full of it.
Were you just standing in the parking lot when "the guy" at work pulled in? Neat how your little interview reinforces all of your beliefs.
Pretty familiar with the old lady down the street with a Verano? What a joke.
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If I'm such a joke, why the fuck do you stay commenting on what I say? You could just bypass what I say and move on with your life. But, yet, you keep commenting and saying shit. If you don't believe me then don't. No skin off my nose.
And FYI, I'm a parking lot attendant. I direct people where to park. So,yes, I was standing in the lot when he pulled in to be directed to be parked where I told him to.
"Grandma" down the street only buys Buicks since her late husband works for GM. Her last car was a previous gen Lacrosse, a Century before that and a Park Avenue before that. I know her pretty well, yes.
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DCR
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The new kid is mad...
You've got quite the emotional investment here I see.
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HondaFan1990
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owequitit wrote:
You can choose to see anything however you want. It neither adds credibility nor creedance to Honda's poor choices. When even Honda is saying they are poor, then it doesn't really matter what all of the positive pansies want to say.
I was positive at one point too. But Honda actually made good product at that point (like your beloved 4th gen Accord, which some current Honda product can't compare to in many ways). The problem was that after 10 years of Honda pulling a GM (ever cheaper, ever less refined, increasing quality issues, etc) even an optimist has to eventually realize that everything is not swell and dandy.
Zero ILX sales from one of the biggest Acura dealers in one of the biggest markets only serves to reinforce that. It isn't about positive or negative, it is about a no bullshit assesment of where Honda stands.
You can project, rationalize, or justify Honda's poor behavior all you want. I could give two shits. I care about one thing, and one thing only. That is Honda producing shit that makes sense, makes their customers happy, and ultimately sells and keeps people (like me, who is well over 10 Honda products) in the fold. Not because I am an investor, salesman, employee, or executive, but because Honda is the company that most aligns with my automotive values, when they aren't busy focusing on next quarter's profit margin (which, ironically, is the same thing that killed GM and Ford), saving $.02 on an interior, etc.
Now, to put this in relative perspective, compare the current crop of Chrysler interiors, which are garnering rave reviews, compared to 5 years ago. The cost difference? $107. No offense, but no matter how optimistic you THINK you are, it is absolutely assinine to bankrupt yourself over $107, which amounts to LESS than 1% of the total transaction. It is flawed management, poor business, and bullshit. Period. The ILX happens to have a decent interior. Great. But why is a brand new car with a lower price of entry NOT moving off the lots? Simple economics says that it SHOULD currently be Acura's volume seller, and especially during the first 3 months of production when buzz and consumer anticipation are as high as they are going to get.
No matter how you spin it, the ILX is going to end up just like the current RL, the ZDX, the first gen RDX and several other notable historical products because Acura did not provide a product that appeals to the intended market. Simple as that. There is nothing optimistic in spending billions on product that doesn't sell. You guys bitch that we are unrealistic wanting a version that was a little bit sportier (you have spent how many posts trying to tell me that a $300 LSD is unrealistic), and yet, I am supposed to be OK with Acura literally spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a car that sells nothing? PUHLEASE. That isn't optimism, it is poor decision making.
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I don't have a "beloved 4th gen Accord". Don't know where that came from.
And I also don't know where a $300 LSD topic came from. I haven't even talked about that to you or anyone. Where are you getting your info from?
I've already acknowledged Honda isn't perfect and has problems. But what I'd like to hear now is what the 4th gen Accord does that current Honda products don't do in your opinion? Because I can think of some things it can't do or others do just as well.....
Honda and Acura should just die because they don't do anything right. Might as well. Nothing in their current lineup is even remotely decent. Let's just look at all of the FAIL:
Ridgeline- Half-assed, doesn't sale. Should die.
CRZ- Half assed, doesn't sale, not really a hybrid. Should transform.
Insight- Prius doesn't know it exists, neither do consumers. Should die.
Crosstour- Slow sales, ugly, half assed. Should die.
Civic- Panned by the press. Cheap interior. Boring. 8th gen better....also had sliding cupholder covers.
Pilot- Cheap interior. Boring redesign. Other gen was better.
Odyssey- Questionable styling. Cheap interior. Other gen was better.
Accord- Bloated, ugly sedan, interior quality, dated. Other gen drove better.
Fit- Some hope here.....although sales are down. But with a cheap interior and no power.
CRV- Winner.
Acura:
ILX- Epic fail. Won't sale, too expensive, meh reviews.
TSX- Still some hope left....but up in the air on it staying around.
TL- Ugly face....but some hope.
RDX- Winner.
MDX- Needs update, winner still.
RL- Who? Will change, hopefully.
ZDX- Again, who? Die.
NSX- Hybrid thingy engine, looks like an Audi R8, built in Ohio....probably won't be like original.....
Yeah, when you look at all of Honda/Acura....you can see most of it all sucks.
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DCR
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That is actually a very accurate list.
Jeff can probably shut the doors now as there is nothing left to discuss.
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