TonyEX
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Well, it won't be soon now that all diesel motors and cars in California will have to have all those neat "this facility contains stuff that can cause cancer and all kinds of nasty baby issues..."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-18415532
Soon they will require that all trucks in California be powered by fungus and unicorns.
I wonder what this will do to the Europeans...
Perhaps California can start fining automakers and diesel engine manufacturers so that we can pay off our $17BIL deficit.
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Mr. Taggart
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Two key quotes from the article:
"IARC has now labelled exhausts as a definite cause of cancer, although it does not compare how risky different carcinogens are. Diesel exhausts are now in the same group as carcinogens ranging from wood chippings to plutonium and sunlight to alcohol. "
What sunlight and alcohol? Must we all move underground and stop drinking now???
And finally: "...director of cancer information Dr Lesley Walker said the overall number of lung cancers caused by diesel fumes was "likely to be a fraction of those caused by smoking tobacco".
So too much exposure to a substance can be bad for you? I have never heard of such a thing. They should ban Selma Hyek then because she always makes my pants tight and my blood pressure increase.
True story. Mecury naturally occurs in the earth and can leach out from rainfall. Many streams have elevated levels of Mercury due to water entering the soil running downhill and then re-emerging with Mecury in it.
A certain southern coal mining state was concerned that coal mines should not pollute river and streams with mercury, so they analyzed the runoff from coal mines and naturally occuring mercury in the same area upstream from the coal mines, and decided to set standards. The coal mines were in agreement that elevated levels of mecury would not be good for the environment. The state came back and told the coal mines that they could not discharge mecury at a higher lever than was found to be upstream of them, which they readily agreed to.
After consideration and protest by out of state enviromental groups the coal miners felt that it was in everyone's interest to have the water come out as clean as possible and created test methods and control systems to ensure that the discharge came out at the equivalent of drinking water. This meant additional spending at testing would have to be completed as the water would have to be cleaner than the naturally occuring runoff. The EPA allows .002 parts per million or 2/100ths molecules of mercury for for every million molecules of water.
But then the EPA stepped in. The EPA wanted the coal miners to agree to a much much stiffer standard, namely .00002 parts per million. Unfortunately, when this idea was floated by the EPA, there was no readilly available test equipment to test to this level. The EPA still wanted to coal miners to agree to this limit and were told that the EPA was working on the testing methods to do so, and until then they could submit water to be tested to the EPA. But this would only be a voluntary test program, so there was no need for the miners to worry about agreeing to it. You can bet that if this was agreed to that this program would not longer be voluntary but mandatory.
To give you an idea how small .00002 parts per million is, imagine you fill the Georgia dome with children's the balls from a childrens ball pit, all of them white. While you were pouring them in from the top somebody randomly dumped in 2,000 red balls and then you were told you were supposed to find these.
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The Legend
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Another black eye for VW, BMW and MB diesels...
Anything to keep out soot and particulates from spreading to the masses in high-density population centers is A-OK to me :)
IMO diesel should only be relegated to railrods... like CSX commercial trains that use diesel hybrids.
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DrWhiner
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Soon they will require that all trucks in California be powered by fungus and unicorns.
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How about CNG???
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Mr. Taggart
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They soot and particulates have already been spread in high density areas across Western Europe due to tax policies taht make gas more expensive the diesel.
It you want to relegate diesel to railroads who would you relegate alcohol to? What about sunshine? You can die from skin cancer.
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Mr. Taggart
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DrWhiner wrote:
Soon they will require that all trucks in California be powered by fungus and unicorns.
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How about CNG???
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You can frack to get the maximum amount of natural gas out of the earth (enough for at least 200 years if I recall) but that is going to cause earthquakes and natural gas leaching into the groundwater so that is out of the question.
Pretty soon we will be living in mud huts and riding donkeys, sweear to God.
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cforez
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
You can frack to get the maximum amount of natural gas out of the earth (enough for at least 200 years if I recall) but that is going to cause earthquakes and natural gas leaching into the groundwater so that is out of the question.
Pretty soon we will be living in mud huts and riding donkeys, sweear to God.
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I'll find some other way to get where I'm going before poisoning the groundwater. You don't have to worry about mud huts and donkeys because if there's no potable water, there's no civilization.
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FiSH-Chan
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
It you want to relegate diesel to railroads who would you relegate alcohol to? What about sunshine? You can die from skin cancer.
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You can avoid direct sunshine by going into shaded area if you want and there will always be night and clouds, sunblock or umbrella or trees to cut out sunshine but you can't avoid breathing. In places like my town there are quite alot of really old diesels spewing out black smoke and you really can't avoid breathing it in. Even if you can't smell it, the particles are spread out by the wind and you're still braething some in anyway unless you go to the country side. Add it all up from since when I was a kid (there are some diesel trucks that still exist on the roads today I have seen since I was a kid) and I know my life has shortened by just those diesel fume alone.
There is a lot of sun where I live, but that is never an issue if doing office job everyday like I am doing now, my exposure to direct sun is maybe about 15-20 minutes everyday, just enough for my vitamin D... lol
Also you can choose not to drink alcohol.
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notyper
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Everything causes cancer. Everything is bad for you if you have too much of it. We're all gonna die.
The question is, how are you going to live? What is the benefit vs. the cost for a given technology? If the benefit exceeds the cost, then you have an argument for using that technology at some level.
This, in my opinion, is the problem with most people pursuing a "green" agenda. They simply don't know where to stop. Whether consciously or subconciously, they have a problem with people. It's a form of self-loathing and I have no respect for it.
SC
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gogzy
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the danger of diesel soot lays in it's particle size. the diesel's soot is so fine and small, mostly can pass our human filtration systems and arrived at lung and damage lung cell. it's a very tough journey to leave this world with any lung issue, we are not advance enough to make oxygen/CO2 exchange device, and it's probably one of the worse way to stop paying tax forever, and there is no pain killer to sooth the path to heaven in this case. this warning is probably over blown, but it's has some educational value ;)
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FiSH-Chan
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notyper wrote:
Everything causes cancer. Everything is bad for you if you have too much of it. We're all gonna die.
The question is, how are you going to live? |
While true, my point is above that some things you can avoid, some thinsgs can't... if everyone is using diesel, then you simply can't avoid it completely. I can adjust my life by using a water filter (our water is #$%#), avoiding sun and less alcohol... actually those are very minor things that is easy to do.. but if my next door neighbor has an old smokey diesel starting up every morning and idle for 20 minutes and all the fume come over to my house... i can't help that. Not like I am going to freak out because I will die from cancer, but I would be much happier without it, cancer causing or not.
So at least news like this come out and if less people buy diesel.. I would be happy. Aren't 'green' people responsible for so many diesels in Europe the first place anyway, those hypocrites.
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Mr. Taggart
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cforez wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
You can frack to get the maximum amount of natural gas out of the earth (enough for at least 200 years if I recall) but that is going to cause earthquakes and natural gas leaching into the groundwater so that is out of the question.
Pretty soon we will be living in mud huts and riding donkeys, sweear to God.
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I'll find some other way to get where I'm going before poisoning the groundwater. You don't have to worry about mud huts and donkeys because if there's no potable water, there's no civilization.
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I guess you fail to see the humor that the EPA claimed fracking claimed put natural gas in ground water but had to backtrack when it was determined they made up the data. They then jumped to the conclusion the fracking would cause earthquakes. This is the same EPA that told a couple that standing after rain was a waterway and they would have to stop building thier dreamhouse and had no legal recourse to fight the EPA. The EPA was laughed out of the Supreme Court. This is the same EPA who sent ARMED agents to a North Carolina man's home after he sent an email asking to speak with the regional head of the EPA who said it was the mission of the Agency to crucify oil and gas companies.
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notyper
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Oh, don't get me wrong FiSH-Chan - I think diesels have definitely received a lot of market share in the consumer market thanks to ill-conceived government nudges, especially in the EU. In reality, as a passenger car engine, I don't think diesels are the best choice for more than a relatively small part of the market, all things (regulations) being equal.
That said, if equipped with similar emissions equipment, the difference in health impact between diesel and petrol engines in cars is small enough to be negligible IMO. You shouldn't choose a gas engine over diesel (new car) because of pollution issues, you should do it because it's generally a better choice if the government isn't subsidizing diesel over petrol.
SC
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FiSH-Chan
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No problem at all, just sharing my opinion. Oh yes, well generally where I live, diesels tend to be much dirtier and you can actually see the stuff that may kill you.
Something like this, x100:
http://youtu.be/9x2t6BK3E_0
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Restless
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
I guess you fail to see the humor that the EPA claimed fracking claimed put natural gas in ground water but had to backtrack when it was determined they made up the data. They then jumped to the conclusion the fracking would cause earthquakes. This is the same EPA that told a couple that standing after rain was a waterway and they would have to stop building thier dreamhouse and had no legal recourse to fight the EPA. The EPA was laughed out of the Supreme Court. This is the same EPA who sent ARMED agents to a North Carolina man's home after he sent an email asking to speak with the regional head of the EPA who said it was the mission of the Agency to crucify oil and gas companies.
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Errr, not sure if in USA, EPA determines whats true or not, but at least in Europe there were scientific reports, that fracking may contaminate underground water and may cause small earthquakes.
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cforez
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If you inject the ground with fracturing fluid, made mostly of water, under high pressure in an area where there is both groundwater and natural gas, they're isn't any chance of mixing?
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Nick GravesX
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Due to reckless Keynesian fiat-moneygeddon, we fortunately can no longer afford zombie organisations such as the WHO (actually, I like The Who; We don't get fooled again) and such cancers will by necessity have to be excised. TFFT!
Cheers, everyone.
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HONDA AFVM
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TonyE wrote:
Well, it won't be soon now that all diesel motors and cars in California will have to have all those neat "this facility contains stuff that can cause cancer and all kinds of nasty baby issues..."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-18415532
Soon they will require that all trucks in California be powered by fungus and unicorns.
I wonder what this will do to the Europeans...
Perhaps California can start fining automakers and diesel engine manufacturers so that we can pay off our $17BIL deficit.
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Tony.......
The SIMPLE solution to that FILTHY diesel fuel that I despise of.......is NATURAL GAS........;-)
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HONDA AFVM
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The Legend wrote:
Another black eye for VW, BMW and MB diesels...
Anything to keep out soot and particulates from spreading to the masses in high-density population centers is A-OK to me :)
IMO diesel should only be relegated to railrods... like CSX commercial trains that use diesel hybrids.
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Riddle me THIS Batman? How often and how MUCH does it cost to replace the Urea gas tank? I googled every form of question to find out how much it cost with calling a dealer.....I have heard customers tell me anywhere from $230 bucks to $480 bucks every 10,000 to 30,000 miles the tank needs to be refilled........Any answers?
It is NO WHERE on line the cost???? Like it's being hidden.
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TonyEX
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
They soot and particulates have already been spread in high density areas across Western Europe due to tax policies taht make gas more expensive the diesel.
It you want to relegate diesel to railroads who would you relegate alcohol to? What about sunshine? You can die from skin cancer.
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Eh Amigo! Sunshine? We don't need no stinkin' sunshine... That's why Mexican sombreros are so beeeg... Si?
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Mr. Taggart
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Restless wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
I guess you fail to see the humor that the EPA claimed fracking claimed put natural gas in ground water but had to backtrack when it was determined they made up the data. They then jumped to the conclusion the fracking would cause earthquakes. This is the same EPA that told a couple that standing after rain was a waterway and they would have to stop building thier dreamhouse and had no legal recourse to fight the EPA. The EPA was laughed out of the Supreme Court. This is the same EPA who sent ARMED agents to a North Carolina man's home after he sent an email asking to speak with the regional head of the EPA who said it was the mission of the Agency to crucify oil and gas companies.
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Errr, not sure if in USA, EPA determines whats true or not, but at least in Europe there were scientific reports, that fracking may contaminate underground water and may cause small earthquakes.
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So you prefer to take action on what "may" be instead of finding out what is? There were also scientific reports that global warming existed but those studies turned out to be fake too.
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TonyEX
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Another black eye for VW, BMW and MB diesels...
Anything to keep out soot and particulates from spreading to the masses in high-density population centers is A-OK to me :)
IMO diesel should only be relegated to railrods... like CSX commercial trains that use diesel hybrids.
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Riddle me THIS Batman? How often and how MUCH does it cost to replace the Urea gas tank? I googled every form of question to find out how much it cost with calling a dealer.....I have heard customers tell me anywhere from $230 bucks to $480 bucks every 10,000 to 30,000 miles the tank needs to be refilled........Any answers?
It is NO WHERE on line the cost???? Like it's being hidden.
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I figure a couple of Heineken six packs and you can fill that urea tank in no time.
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TonyEX
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Soon they will require that all trucks in California be powered by fungus and unicorns.
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How about CNG???
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You can frack to get the maximum amount of natural gas out of the earth (enough for at least 200 years if I recall) but that is going to cause earthquakes and natural gas leaching into the groundwater so that is out of the question.
Pretty soon we will be living in mud huts and riding donkeys, sweear to God.
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I hope you are being sarcastic about that....
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Nick GravesX
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More like 600 years!
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article35119.html
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HONDA AFVM
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TonyE wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Another black eye for VW, BMW and MB diesels...
Anything to keep out soot and particulates from spreading to the masses in high-density population centers is A-OK to me :)
IMO diesel should only be relegated to railrods... like CSX commercial trains that use diesel hybrids.
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Riddle me THIS Batman? How often and how MUCH does it cost to replace the Urea gas tank? I googled every form of question to find out how much it cost with calling a dealer.....I have heard customers tell me anywhere from $230 bucks to $480 bucks every 10,000 to 30,000 miles the tank needs to be refilled........Any answers?
It is NO WHERE on line the cost???? Like it's being hidden.
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I figure a couple of Heineken six packs and you can fill that urea tank in no time.
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There is really nothing that can convince me that diesel is a valuable fuel. It is a low refined fuel from a barrel of oil, some 19.5 gallons from the 44 gallons of oil are refined into gasoline and 9 to diesel........I think taking 4 of those gallons of diesel, refining that to JET fuel (only 5 gallons are refined into JET fuel), replacing 75% of ALL government and state medium and heavy duty trucks and transit buses to natural gas will bring the cost down to our government, lower the price of JET fuel, lower the cost of travel in all aspects........that will stimulate the economy to a HUGE factor because people will fly to more places and spend more money creating more jobs.....
It's just a matter of NUMBERS, lower the cost of doing business, the cost of goods and services come down, the more that cost comes down, the more people spend money, the more people spend, the more JOBS are created...............
DIESEL is the problem, at $4.00 a gallon, 90% of all goods are priced according to the cost of diesel because we haven't invented a machine that telaports goods through space at no cost, DIESEL gets it to you. Whether it's Truck or train, DIESEL is a MAJOR cost factor....., cut that cost in half with natural gas and the price of EVERYTHING goes down............
DIESEL SUCKS.....It's STINKS, it's dirty and it produces carbon like CRAZY.....NATURAL GAS, PURE..CLEAN....PERRRRRRRTY........!!!!!!!......:-)
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Mr. Taggart
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TonyE wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Soon they will require that all trucks in California be powered by fungus and unicorns.
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How about CNG???
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You can frack to get the maximum amount of natural gas out of the earth (enough for at least 200 years if I recall) but that is going to cause earthquakes and natural gas leaching into the groundwater so that is out of the question.
Pretty soon we will be living in mud huts and riding donkeys, sweear to God.
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I hope you are being sarcastic about that....
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Very much so, see my other posts about the wonder world of the EPA.
But there are those who want to 'save the planet' who feel the world was a better place when the majority of the earth's population lived in mud huts and rode donkeys. (I guess they would be cool with your sombrero) Don't think so? Take a gander at any curent college geology textbook and it will talk about how bad humans have been to the planet (global warming, running out of water, commerical farming is evil), Western Europe and the US raped the world, women achieve more in life because of birth control, and one child policies like China's and abortions are good for the planet.
Oh, and there is a new term for hunger called food security.
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Mr. Taggart
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
TonyE wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Another black eye for VW, BMW and MB diesels...
Anything to keep out soot and particulates from spreading to the masses in high-density population centers is A-OK to me :)
IMO diesel should only be relegated to railrods... like CSX commercial trains that use diesel hybrids.
|
Riddle me THIS Batman? How often and how MUCH does it cost to replace the Urea gas tank? I googled every form of question to find out how much it cost with calling a dealer.....I have heard customers tell me anywhere from $230 bucks to $480 bucks every 10,000 to 30,000 miles the tank needs to be refilled........Any answers?
It is NO WHERE on line the cost???? Like it's being hidden.
|
I figure a couple of Heineken six packs and you can fill that urea tank in no time.
|
There is really nothing that can convince me that diesel is a valuable fuel. It is a low refined fuel from a barrel of oil, some 19.5 gallons from the 44 gallons of oil are refined into gasoline and 9 to diesel........I think taking 4 of those gallons of diesel, refining that to JET fuel (only 5 gallons are refined into JET fuel), replacing 75% of ALL government and state medium and heavy duty trucks and transit buses to natural gas will bring the cost down to our government, lower the price of JET fuel, lower the cost of travel in all aspects........that will stimulate the economy to a HUGE factor because people will fly to more places and spend more money creating more jobs.....
It's just a matter of NUMBERS, lower the cost of doing business, the cost of goods and services come down, the more that cost comes down, the more people spend money, the more people spend, the more JOBS are created...............
DIESEL is the problem, at $4.00 a gallon, 90% of all goods are priced according to the cost of diesel because we haven't invented a machine that telaports goods through space at no cost, DIESEL gets it to you. Whether it's Truck or train, DIESEL is a MAJOR cost factor....., cut that cost in half with natural gas and the price of EVERYTHING goes down............
DIESEL SUCKS.....It's STINKS, it's dirty and it produces carbon like CRAZY.....NATURAL GAS, PURE..CLEAN....PERRRRRRRTY........!!!!!!!......:-)
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Except that the amount of light or heavy products that are produced are based on how the refineries are set up....
And the problem with natural gas is like the problem with Hydrogen in that you need a fairly robust vessel (heavy) to contain the gasses which adds weight and drecreases fuel range. Plus due to the lower BTU output you need more of it to go the same distance. The natural gas civic will go somewhere around 200 miles on a 'tank' of gas while the normal civic will do well over 400.
And if you are talking compressed natural gas it only has about 35k BTU's Compared to gasoline's 109-125BTU's or diesels slightly higher 128-130k BTUs. Liquified natural gas comes in at about 75k BTU's so you sitll aren't close to
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TonyEX
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
Very much so, see my other posts about the wonder world of the EPA.
But there are those who want to 'save the planet' who feel the world was a better place when the majority of the earth's population lived in mud huts and rode donkeys. (I guess they would be cool with your sombrero) Don't think so? Take a gander at any curent college geology textbook and it will talk about how bad humans have been to the planet (global warming, running out of water, commerical farming is evil), Western Europe and the US raped the world, women achieve more in life because of birth control, and one child policies like China's and abortions are good for the planet.
Oh, and there is a new term for hunger called food security.
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Geology?
In my day, the geologists in my school were big partiers... just behind the physics and art majors.
And they were all conservatives with a good taste in music... country and rock.
The best classes I ever took were in Geophysics. I could guarantee you that just about every one owned a set of beer keg taps.
We just dug holes, hiked with a gravimeter that looked like a coffee pot, drew gravity maps by hand and drunk plenty of beer.
Oh, greatest hikers too.. we could read maps and use the compass.
Not a single one of them cared about liberals. We just wanted to get a pick up truck and work finding oil somewhere... Of course, this was a long time ago when finding oil and energy was a job people looked up to.
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Mr. Taggart
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To quote a current geology text book:
"Location, spatial relationships, and connections between the environment and people are among the interests of geographers"
And another tidbit:
"Within the world regional framework, this book is also organized around nine thematic concepts:
- Population
- Gender
- Development
- Food
- Urbanization
- Globalization
- Democratization
- Water
- Climate change"
Here's a highlight for the concept of gender:
"For women, the historical and modern global gender picture is puzzlingly negative
In nearly every culture, in every region of the world, women have had (and still have) an inferior status
Around the world, people of both sexes still routinely accept the idea that males are more productive and intelligent than females
In nearly all cultures, families prefer boys over girls"
Tony I would take a look at the textbooks they are giving your kids these days.... That was just a tip of the iceberg...
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TonyEX
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Err.. that sounds like a public school GEOGRAPHY book, not a GEOLOGY book...
Geology is based upon the earth and what it's made up of... not upon what it looks like on the surface (OK.. it sort of does, but a geologist would study the layout of a road only to figure out if it required reinforcement, not for what it did for some greeny idea of paradise).
However, what you are quoting is not geography either, it's political science.
This is what you get when you have teachers who do not have degrees in the discipline they teach.
Mr. Taggart wrote:
To quote a current geology text book:
"Location, spatial relationships, and connections between the environment and people are among the interests of geographers"
And another tidbit:
"Within the world regional framework, this book is also organized around nine thematic concepts:
- Population
- Gender
- Development
- Food
- Urbanization
- Globalization
- Democratization
- Water
- Climate change"
Here's a highlight for the concept of gender:
"For women, the historical and modern global gender picture is puzzlingly negative
In nearly every culture, in every region of the world, women have had (and still have) an inferior status
Around the world, people of both sexes still routinely accept the idea that males are more productive and intelligent than females
In nearly all cultures, families prefer boys over girls"
Tony I would take a look at the textbooks they are giving your kids these days.... That was just a tip of the iceberg...
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