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TonyEX
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I dunno know about you, but every time I hear HMC talk about CO2 emissions I want to throw a Craftsman English Standard wrench at them.. preferably one of my larger ones.. the inch and a half one!
Now, I think nothing wrong about making the engines more efficient and exploring other fuels... particularly as that can cut back the US dependence on oil from countries in which we should have nothing to do with in the first place.
A fuel independent North America ( I think Canada is well there, huh? God Bless those McKenzies ) will be good for our politics and our economy.
I think we should be drilling for oil in NA, laying pipelines, using Natural Gas, working on hydrogen, more efficient engines, solar panels, etc, etc, etc.... so long as they are economically viable and don't cost me a penny in additional taxes.
I think fuel cells and stuff like the Honda Home station are wonderful. Anything that can put you off the grid is great... neat way to build your house out on the sticks if you so wish. Anything that lessens my dependency on Southern California Edison during those Brown Out Summer Days.
But, being fuel efficient doesn't mean you have to be arrogant, judgmental and/or boring. Now, I don't think HMC is arrogant or judgmental, but man, they sure are getting BORING....
Just sayin'...
Now, I realize the current administration in the US is all about sour grapes. And it sure is arrogant as hell. It also doesn't seem to car much about cars... or about having a bit of fun.... I mean, watching good ol' Dubya at the White House for the unveiling of his picture made me realize that his short speech likely quadrupled the average fun meter at the WH since he left.
So, I understand the hybrids, I understand the near collapse of the economy... but hell, you know, when we all go off the cliff, I'd rather go over it in a little car that has an 8500 rpm redline than in a hybrid that gets 80 mpg.
I'd rather go out with a WOOOOOOHOOOOOO than a YAWN....
So, what about? How about a nice K22 for a change?
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RocketRon
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Production HSV-010! You might jump across the cliff with such a beast!
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TonyEX
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RocketRon wrote:
Production HSV-010! You might jump across the cliff with such a beast!
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Sadly the cliff is the economic one we're digging for ourselves.
I just hope we can at least afford a 1.6 liter buzz bomb.... ;-)
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Chocs
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RocketRon wrote:
Production HSV-010!
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Again with that. Stop it, you're making my heart ache! :D
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RocketRon
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Ok then an 8K RPM 1.6L combined with the CRZ's IMA could be fun.
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TonyEX
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RocketRon wrote:
Ok then an 8K RPM 1.6L combined with the CRZ's IMA could be fun.
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Ditch IMA.... how about a short stroke, 8400 RPM, J24 with DOHC iVTEC heads and DI. Plus a AT6SS?
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RocketRon
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Sold! Keep IMA, it provides torque and efficiency!
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Torque
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TonyE wrote:
RocketRon wrote:
Ok then an 8K RPM 1.6L combined with the CRZ's IMA could be fun.
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Ditch IMA.... how about a short stroke, 8400 RPM, J24 with DOHC iVTEC heads and DI. Plus a AT6SS?
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Sounds too good to be true. With the direction Honda is going in we will never see anything close to that. Sad but true.
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RocketRon
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Only fools don’t change their mind.
Not saying Honda is foolish, just saying they might surprise us?
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Mr. Taggart
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What is the cost breakdow on the hydrogen stations and what is the real costs of the Clarity? Get those numbers anywhere near (+3-5%) of an Accord and you might have a winner.
But at the end of the day, is there any other fuel out there that gives the same bang or the buck?
Speaking of CO2 emissions and ingoring if global warming exists or is like the tooth fairy, what is the negative impact if we the planet warmed up a few degrees? Its cooled down a few degrees, remember the little ice age? At one time wasn't Greenland and Iceland covered with farms?
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TonyEX
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
What is the cost breakdow on the hydrogen stations and what is the real costs of the Clarity? Get those numbers anywhere near (+3-5%) of an Accord and you might have a winner.
But at the end of the day, is there any other fuel out there that gives the same bang or the buck?
Speaking of CO2 emissions and ingoring if global warming exists or is like the tooth fairy, what is the negative impact if we the planet warmed up a few degrees? Its cooled down a few degrees, remember the little ice age? At one time wasn't Greenland and Iceland covered with farms?
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That was around 1000AD, I think.
Hydrocarbons are currently the most bang for the money.
North America is awash with Natural Gas that ought to be able to be transported readily... This could be done at people's homes or gas stations could get larger gas lines and the gas pressurized there.
Or it could be delivered by tanker trucks.
What's neat about hydrogen is that in a fuel cell it's the least polluting and pretty simple. However it still has issues with the power required to generate it. Perhaps a combination of solar power might be used...
One interesting thing about cell phones is that it also provides water. So if you were off the grid, you could chill the water vapor and use it as potable water.
And, if you had plenty of power that was not continuous and needed a back up battery... say, lots of solar panels or wind power.. you could use hydrogen and a solar cell as a battery.. that is... use solar power to create hydrogen from water when you have power and later turn the hydrogen back to water in the fuel cell... so hydrogen would be used as a "battery".
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RocketRon
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TonyE wrote:
RocketRon wrote:
Ok then an 8K RPM 1.6L combined with the CRZ's IMA could be fun.
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Ditch IMA.... how about a short stroke, 8400 RPM, J24 with DOHC iVTEC heads and DI. Plus a AT6SS?
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Tone, you're getting there!
In the most recent NSX 2.o clip, it looked like a V6. So what V6 specifications seem feasible? Prediction time!
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TonyEX
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RocketRon wrote:
TonyE wrote:
RocketRon wrote:
Ok then an 8K RPM 1.6L combined with the CRZ's IMA could be fun.
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Ditch IMA.... how about a short stroke, 8400 RPM, J24 with DOHC iVTEC heads and DI. Plus a AT6SS?
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Tone, you're getting there!
In the most recent NSX 2.o clip, it looked like a V6. So what V6 specifications seem feasible? Prediction time!
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I guess that the NSX 2.0 will use IMA to provide SH-SH-AWD... powering the front tires? I don't recall that it would be able to run purely on electricity.
My thought really are with something like a two box, five door design... make it a little bit smaller than the CRV and give it enough torque so that you don't have to row the gears all the time.
But give it a smooooth and flat torque curve running all the way to the redline.
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S600=Dream
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I think that what they're doing is trying to position themselves for a future without any oil.
Now, whether or not that's a viable business plan right now while we have lots of the stuff, and probably will for awhile longer is another topic all together...
...but I say more power to them.
It's going to be bumpy and slow and sort of muddled for a bit, but I feel like they're getting a bit behind the curve right now to be more well prepared than everyone else in the future. I feel like they're further behind than they wanted to be, actually, and we're, unfortunately, seeing the fruition of them being frustrated and behind, and trying to market their way out of problematic current products whilst doing tons of R&D behind the scenes for the future.
The next few years could either be really disappointing or could turn the market on it's head. It all depends on how the next gen powertrains and hybrid systems work, and it depends on if they can use all that to create new mojo for themselves.
It sucks, but the reality is that the days of high revving engines are done for. AHM *has* bitten the bullet and is moving more towards efficiency, electrification, hybridization, and future fuel, as priority number one.
It will be very interesting to see if they can integrate all of their future-planning to make a compelling package, and the die-hard Honda enthusiast inside of me thinks (and hopes) they can.
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CarPhreakD
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I think I read a quote somewhere which stated "never half ass two things. Whole ass one thing." In other words, if you're going to set up a goal, like Honda has with efficiency (which btw, doesn't just include CO2, but rather thermal efficiency in general, including FE and increased engine life), you either go all the way and pour all your heart and effort into it... or you don't do it at all. Honda has been half-assing things and not putting money into technology, resulting in IMA and products like the Insight, CR-Z, et al. These cars had much more potential than they currently show, but were let down because Honda would not commit to making the best/most efficient powertrains and overall "car".
The setup for the NSX 2, AFAIK, is that it will have one electronic motor hub in each of the front wheels; the mid-engine V6 is powering the back wheels through a DSG transmission (that in itself has an integrated electric motor... which sort of reminds me of ZF's 8 speed implementation). There is no direct connection to the front wheels through axles or anything.
This sort of implementation can run on electricity. As for the V6, Honda would need to do something like 350hp at least if they want any performance credibility with this machine. It has to do double duty of charging the battery and power the rear wheels.
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DrWhiner
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I think I read a quote somewhere which stated "never half ass two things. Whole ass one thing." In other words, if you're going to set up a goal, like Honda has with efficiency (which btw, doesn't just include CO2, but rather thermal efficiency in general, including FE and increased engine life), you either go all the way and pour all your heart and effort into it... or you don't do it at all. Honda has been half-assing things and not putting money into technology, resulting in IMA and products like the Insight, CR-Z, et al. These cars had much more potential than they currently show, but were let down because Honda would not commit to making the best/most efficient powertrains and overall "car".
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FiSH-Chan
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DrWhiner wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
These cars had much more potential than they currently show, but were let down because Honda would not commit to making the best/most efficient powertrains and overall "car".
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Yeah I have a feeling that before this they were spreading themselves to thin. Then the earthquake, then the flood.
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TonyEX
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I think I read a quote somewhere which stated "never half ass two things. Whole ass one thing." In other words, if you're going to set up a goal, like Honda has with efficiency (which btw, doesn't just include CO2, but rather thermal efficiency in general, including FE and increased engine life), you either go all the way and pour all your heart and effort into it... or you don't do it at all. Honda has been half-assing things and not putting money into technology, resulting in IMA and products like the Insight, CR-Z, et al. These cars had much more potential than they currently show, but were let down because Honda would not commit to making the best/most efficient powertrains and overall "car".
The setup for the NSX 2, AFAIK, is that it will have one electronic motor hub in each of the front wheels; the mid-engine V6 is powering the back wheels through a DSG transmission (that in itself has an integrated electric motor... which sort of reminds me of ZF's 8 speed implementation). There is no direct connection to the front wheels through axles or anything.
This sort of implementation can run on electricity. As for the V6, Honda would need to do something like 350hp at least if they want any performance credibility with this machine. It has to do double duty of charging the battery and power the rear wheels.
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IMHO, IMA-2 is the way to go. Indeed, I was thinking about stuff like that a few years ago and I posted it on the technical forum...
Putting electric motors at each wheel with an integrated CVT in each and then using an electric generator of some sort... ICE, NG ICE, fuel cell, dual stage hybrid (IMA-II) makes a ton of sense because it decouples the powertrain into two halves which can then mixed and matched at will.
Imagine if the Clarity had been designed like that.. with the fuel cell not between the front seats but under the hood and conformal fuel tank design shapes that could be used for oil, diesel, gas, hydrogen or even batteries... then the Clarity car per se could have been a multi fuel design.
I think this is the future. Build a generic enough power plant....
GM hinted at this with the original Volt designs... they built it so the power train and fuel storage all sat within an enclosed lower rolling chassis to which any car body could be attached.
I'm hinting at the complementary design.. a car unibody with a generic interface and electric wheel drive to which electricity powertrain generators could be added.
Indeed, if this generic powertrain supported brake regeneration and included its own batteries then all variations of the vehicle would be "hybrids". Indeed, a nice NG electric generator already exists for Honda Power...
True, it would not be necessarily be high revying car, but it could be fast, good handling, light, quiet and efficient... which is what we all want, huh?
The challenge would be in making it small.. but think, if the large cars all were to be AWD then you would have a range of smaller electric motors, there would be no need to create large ones. Such small motors could be fitted into smaller, lighter cars that had the electric motors either FWD or RWD...
A small 2600 lb Honda Coupe RWD with the equivalent of 200bhp and 230ft-lbs and an NG electric generator.
Make mine in RED, with NAVI and ELS stereo.
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TonyEX
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DrWhiner wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
I think I read a quote somewhere which stated "never half ass two things. Whole ass one thing." In other words, if you're going to set up a goal, like Honda has with efficiency (which btw, doesn't just include CO2, but rather thermal efficiency in general, including FE and increased engine life), you either go all the way and pour all your heart and effort into it... or you don't do it at all. Honda has been half-assing things and not putting money into technology, resulting in IMA and products like the Insight, CR-Z, et al. These cars had much more potential than they currently show, but were let down because Honda would not commit to making the best/most efficient powertrains and overall "car".
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No... I don't think that....
However, I agree that HMC did not go all the way.
In the case of IMA, HMC gave us the Accord V6 which was a great idea: The power of the V6 with efficiency of the I4. However, they failed to market it...
IMHO, the biggest issue with HMC today is that the failed to understand that their marketing and product planning is not working.
Let me say this again...
HMC MANAGEMENT FAILS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEIR MARKETING AND PRODUCT PLANNING IS NOT WORKING.
IMA should have grown to IMA-2 five years ago. The upgrades were stunningly obvious to anyone who thinks about it. Instead, engineering gave us the V6 IMA which was very, very good, but marketing failed to support it and product planning did not realize the need for an upgraded IMA.
Marketing and Product Planning thought that the issue was that the car wan not distinctive enough which is COMPLETELY wrong... Ergo the CR-Z and Insight. Which were hobbled by a hybrid only mentality.
Hence, no CR-Z with a nice R18 or K20...
Hence, no Insight with a nice R18.
If I were Ito, I'd do a serious clean up of AHM's marketing and product planning.
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Gfn8r
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TonyE wrote:
I dunno know about you, but every time I hear HMC talk about CO2 emissions I want to throw a Craftsman English Standard wrench at them.. preferably one of my larger ones.. the inch and a half one!
Now, I think nothing wrong about making the engines more efficient and exploring other fuels... particularly as that can cut back the US dependence on oil from countries in which we should have nothing to do with in the first place.
A fuel independent North America ( I think Canada is well there, huh? God Bless those McKenzies ) will be good for our politics and our economy.
I think we should be drilling for oil in NA, laying pipelines, using Natural Gas, working on hydrogen, more efficient engines, solar panels, etc, etc, etc.... so long as they are economically viable and don't cost me a penny in additional taxes.
I think fuel cells and stuff like the Honda Home station are wonderful. Anything that can put you off the grid is great... neat way to build your house out on the sticks if you so wish. Anything that lessens my dependency on Southern California Edison during those Brown Out Summer Days.
But, being fuel efficient doesn't mean you have to be arrogant, judgmental and/or boring. Now, I don't think HMC is arrogant or judgmental, but man, they sure are getting BORING....
Just sayin'...
Now, I realize the current administration in the US is all about sour grapes. And it sure is arrogant as hell. It also doesn't seem to car much about cars... or about having a bit of fun.... I mean, watching good ol' Dubya at the White House for the unveiling of his picture made me realize that his short speech likely quadrupled the average fun meter at the WH since he left.
So, I understand the hybrids, I understand the near collapse of the economy... but hell, you know, when we all go off the cliff, I'd rather go over it in a little car that has an 8500 rpm redline than in a hybrid that gets 80 mpg.
I'd rather go out with a WOOOOOOHOOOOOO than a YAWN....
So, what about? How about a nice K22 for a change?
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A-mother-freakin'-MEN!!!!! PREACH IT, BRUTHA!!!
At the risk of a ban for not saying this in the Political Lounge, I'm buying an Accord V6 this fall just so I have one last fling in case the "administration" doesn't change this autumn, meaning we'll all be driving Trabants (or some other tin-shit penalty-boxes) before long!
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Potenza
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TonyE wrote:
Now, I realize the current administration in the US is all about sour grapes. And it sure is arrogant as hell. It also doesn't seem to car much about cars... or about having a bit of fun.... I mean, watching good ol' Dubya at the White House for the unveiling of his picture made me realize that his short speech likely quadrupled the average fun meter at the WH since he left.
So, I understand the hybrids, I understand the near collapse of the economy... but hell, you know, when we all go off the cliff, I'd rather go over it in a little car that has an 8500 rpm redline than in a hybrid that gets 80 mpg.
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Anyway wasn't it George Bush who hosted plug-in hybrids and fuel cell cars on the White House lawn? "I found it very interesting that by 2012, 50 percent of the automobiles in America will be flex-fuel vehicles," said President Bush.
And isn't Obama the HEMI 300C owner who snubbed the green cars at the D.C. auto show in favor of a Corvette ZR-1 and Shelby Mustang GT500?
Your opinion on the imaginary K22 and other car-related stuff has nothing to do with your opinions on politics, so don't bother trying to make it all fit nicely together.
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TonyEX
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Potenza wrote:
TonyE wrote:
Now, I realize the current administration in the US is all about sour grapes. And it sure is arrogant as hell. It also doesn't seem to car much about cars... or about having a bit of fun.... I mean, watching good ol' Dubya at the White House for the unveiling of his picture made me realize that his short speech likely quadrupled the average fun meter at the WH since he left.
So, I understand the hybrids, I understand the near collapse of the economy... but hell, you know, when we all go off the cliff, I'd rather go over it in a little car that has an 8500 rpm redline than in a hybrid that gets 80 mpg.
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Anyway wasn't it George Bush who hosted plug-in hybrids and fuel cell cars on the White House lawn? "I found it very interesting that by 2012, 50 percent of the automobiles in America will be flex-fuel vehicles," said President Bush.
And isn't Obama the HEMI 300C owner who snubbed the green cars at the D.C. auto show in favor of a Corvette ZR-1 and Shelby Mustang GT500?
Your opinion on the imaginary K22 and other car-related stuff has nothing to do with your opinions on politics, so don't bother trying to make it all fit nicely together.
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Deja vu... have we not had this argument before?
You can not separate the geopolitical environment from what Honda Motors is doing nowadays. When they talk about low CO emissions they are following the dictate of the Global Greens.
They are very influenced by the Climate Changers and by the implications of the Kyoto Accord.
AHM is also trying to play nice with the current administration which is anti car so long as it isn't a Gov. Motors vehicle. in which case they lay cash on it.
Unlike Honda, most automakers, however, don't seem to care much and they keeping putting out cars that are more fun by the minute.
End result is that Honda cars are rather staid nowadays. I mean, my new TSX Wagon is a very nice, very grown up car that has a great balance of power, economy and utility, but it doesn't get my pulse going like the Prelude switching into VTEC mode at 4K.... Nor shifting at redline in the GSR.
Even our new Si -when it gets here- has the more 'efficient' motor than the old Si. I mean, it's faster but I don't think it will be as fun.
Just sayin'
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Gumbercules
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"Unlike Honda, most automakers, however, don't seem to care much and they keeping putting out cars that are more fun by the minute."
Absolutely, regardless of what CO2 does or doesn't do, all other automakers are doing 2 things that honda won't:
1. Build high power and fun cars that get great reviews by auto journalists, but also get lower MPG
2. Engineer cars to get great EPA HWY ratings to get great marketing while ignoring city ratings and having little regard to real world COMBINED fuel-efficiency
What Honda will do is things like reduce toxins from their cars, such as the Healthystuff.org report that shows Honda has the least interior toxins while Hyndai has the most. But this is not as sexy as saying "40MPG HWY."
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TonyEX
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Gumbercules wrote:
"Unlike Honda, most automakers, however, don't seem to care much and they keeping putting out cars that are more fun by the minute."
Absolutely, regardless of what CO2 does or doesn't do, all other automakers are doing 2 things that honda won't:
1. Build high power and fun cars that get great reviews by auto journalists, but also get lower MPG
2. Engineer cars to get great EPA HWY ratings to get great marketing while ignoring city ratings and having little regard to real world COMBINED fuel-efficiency
What Honda will do is things like reduce toxins from their cars, such as the Healthystuff.org report that shows Honda has the least interior toxins while Hyndai has the most. But this is not as sexy as saying "40MPG HWY."
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True.. but what good is it when they don't advertise it?
It reminds me of "Dr. Strangelove": "Of what good is a doomsday machine when you don't tell people about it?".
I just hope that Honda ain't waiting for the next May Day parade!
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