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DCR
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S600=Dream wrote:
Maybe some day we'll have something to come back to, but part of me just thinks that we should just focus on the positive and stop wishing for things that won't ever happen.
It makes visiting this website easier for me, at least.
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"We" know exactly where "we" are...trust me.
Coined as the most negative person on ToV, and one who cannot allow anything positive, I think your statement up there illustrates exactly what is wrong around here.
There seems to be some confusion about Honda enthusiasts...and I don't mean people who like little Fits and CR-Z's and things that don't go fast or rev hard. I am talking about the people who BUILT THIS SITE...those who are passionate about LSD's, K20's, redlines and the philosophy of Old Man Honda. This is their house...the rules of the "real world" do not really need to apply here. If talk about why the ILX 2.4 should have an LSD, and why it is dismissed because of that makes your stay here a little tougher, then I am sorry for your loss.
Look at your own screen name...
This isn't necessarily aimed at you, but:
Immense site contributors like Neal are taking a break from here because of the constant bullshit where NO ONE can have a conversation anymore about a performance car without some "new direction Honda" ball washer coming in and pissing on the parade. I see Ryan DL is back, but hell, haven't seen him in ages, and he used to wipe these folks off the site the nothing. You can't even discuss a previous Honda performance car because it spews earth killing CO2, or it didn't have enough hard plastics, had too many cupholders, too high of a redline and it was too much fun!
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SHOBU
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DCR I hear what you are saying but I realized a while back that times and people change
I joined this site when I originally bought an Intergra Type R in 1998. After 3 more Hondas/Acuras I now landed on a TSX V6
Do I miss red lining the Type R and driving stick ... every day
Would I take it over the TSX ... probably not as I have 2 kids now.
Is something like a heavy V6 auto worst that a light I4 stick ... yes and no ... it is just different. The Type R never pushed me back in my seat when I hit the gas and that in itself has its merits ... but man was the Type R a lot more engaging in the curves.
I just hope once the kids are grown up Honda/Acura will be waiting for me with something as intoxicating as the Type R and not as expensive as an NSX (S2000 coupe maybe ??)
But like I said I have realized and accepted people and times change ... so one just has to change along with them and have fun while doing so
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S600=Dream
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DCR wrote:
S600=Dream wrote:
Maybe some day we'll have something to come back to, but part of me just thinks that we should just focus on the positive and stop wishing for things that won't ever happen.
It makes visiting this website easier for me, at least.
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"We" know exactly where "we" are...trust me.
Coined as the most negative person on ToV, and one who cannot allow anything positive, I think your statement up there illustrates exactly what is wrong around here.
There seems to be some confusion about Honda enthusiasts...and I don't mean people who like little Fits and CR-Z's and things that don't go fast or rev hard. I am talking about the people who BUILT THIS SITE...those who are passionate about LSD's, K20's, redlines and the philosophy of Old Man Honda. This is their house...the rules of the "real world" do not really need to apply here. If talk about why the ILX 2.4 should have an LSD, and why it is dismissed because of that makes your stay here a little tougher, then I am sorry for your loss.
Look at your own screen name...
This isn't necessarily aimed at you, but:
Immense site contributors like Neal are taking a break from here because of the constant bullshit where NO ONE can have a conversation anymore about a performance car without some "new direction Honda" ball washer coming in and pissing on the parade. I see Ryan DL is back, but hell, haven't seen him in ages, and he used to wipe these folks off the site the nothing. You can't even discuss a previous Honda performance car because it spews earth killing CO2, or it didn't have enough hard plastics, had too many cupholders, too high of a redline and it was too much fun!
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I definitely think of you as a "realist" more than anything DCR.
Like I've said, I had some of those magical old Hondas, and for the life of me I wish they still made them. Just. Like. That. I'm definitely not going to apologize for the current company philosophy and try to explain it's way through all the issues associated. I'm not blind to the fact that the new Civic is pretty much rubbish, and the CT, ZDX, RL, and the whole basic Acura brand are, eh, problematic products.
That said, I'm not going to just bag on everything going on because there *are* interesting things happening in the company as a whole, and I happen to think that Honda is just adjusting to the current market, and in fact is doing it well...maybe better than any other manufacturer on earth.
...That the current market is full of mouth breathers and dimwits is truly, truly unfortunate.
I'd more quickly blame the car buying public than the company that brings the cars to the buying public.
...
Also, I don't know...I'm curious as to where and what a Honda performance model would be if it was designed in 2012. Like, if Soichiro was still around. What do you think? I don't know if I have an answer, frankly.
And FWIW, I've been around the temple since 2002 buckaroo. I'm not exactly "new" to the fold...just never had a lot to say until recently.
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VTEC_Inside
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Ultima wrote:
Beat me to it. I have a Quaife in my RSXS, could never go back and it's a damn shame Honda didn't put the Si's LSD in the 2.4 given the relatively small cost increase (which I would gladly pay for BTW).
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Jealous.... I only wish I had thought about it when my tranny came out for the TSB work. :(
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owequitit
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S600=Dream wrote:
Fair enough, Owe, and yeah, I've never had a FWD car with an LSD. I'd love to know the real world scenarios where it would be so valuable, because I don't have the feature in my Fit, and I didn't have it in either of my old Accords, or my first car--an EF Civic Si--and they're all been just peachy without.
I'm going to balk on the argument about GPS', because like I said, I don't think they're that valid any more...we can agree to disagree on that one. I can, however agree about the ELS system. My wife's TL has the ELS, and it's one of the finest stereos anywhere for anything.
Still, think about it, if you had an older/younger sister, would she buy it? What about one of her friends?
I'm telling you, there are way, way less people like you and me (enthusiast types), and more like the folks I described. Ask some people in a bar that are your age what is important to them in a car.
And, um, like I said, I think Honda makes fantastic cars for commuting, traveling, and enjoying country roads, but realistically it's hard for me to argue anything other than the S2000, NSX, and Type R cars as proper flat out enthusiast machines, and the R cars were never seen on these shores and were compromised beyond belief as anything other than track cars.
I think enthusiasts bought Hondas as DD's because they're the best at doing that and still being great to drive...and a lot of them still do.
I say that as a guy who owns a couple thousand dollars in Honda stock and lusts over having an old CRX as a "fun" car.
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You claim to have owned many of these Honda enthusiast vehicles, but then slap us all in the face by saying they weren't impressive. If you think your EF Civic Si isn't that impressive (I had a base model hatch swapped with a B18 for awhile), then perhaps you need to go compare it directly to some of its 89-91 competition, because it was heads and shoulders above the crap being offered by competitors at the time. It was almost ridiculous how far beyond the competition those twins were. The 2nd gen CRX Si is still one of my all time favorite cars to this day. The Civic and CRX Si hatches absolutely rewrote the book on what was expected of a sport compact. We didn't quite get the JDM stuff in some cases, but they were white hot and in high demand when they were new. Any cousin or friend I had anywhere near driving age wanted one on some level, or thought they were cool. They also kicked the bar forward on being able to have a fun, capable, and reliable car that was also refined, user-friendly and easy to own. For the time, they revved to the moon, and shamed much larger engines with their power and smoothness of delivery. So they did exactly what I claimed. They allowed the good stuff, without having to settle for the bad stuff. The exact same can be said of the Integras and Preludes of the time. And while they weren't Type R's, they were certainly capable of standing shoulder to shoulder with the competition, as opposed to the situation we are in now with having to make such excuses as "but it's reliable" or "it gets good gas mileage." That is simply a spate of excuses born of 12 years of Honda making ZERO progress on the enthusiast performance front. Not because they couldn't mind you, but rather because they wouldn't. However, every single one of those cars was a proper, flat out enthusiast machine. Just because they could do other stuff too, doesn't mean they weren't wholly intended for the enthusiast. My 8th gen Si does a lot of stuff very well, and it is unquestionably, wholly and intentially focused right at the enthusiast. It is naive to assume that only 2 seat, cramped, RWD cars are enthusiast focused. Regular Civics and CRX's, lower model Preludes and base model Integras were even fairly focused toward "enthusiasts," but the top end models were UNQUESTIONABLY focused that way.
As for the LSD, the best thing I can say is go try one and then get back to me. For that matter, have a try in an EF with one installed. More HP would be even better because it would highlight it even more. It doesn't need to be huge HP, an EF swapped with a B18C5 would more than illustrate my point. But since you are skeptical, here are a few examples where it would be useful in addition to Jeff's post.
1) They are also beneficial in a left hand turn situation. Here is the scenario: You are sitting in the intersection waiting for traffic to clear the light so you can turn left across oncoming traffic. It is a relatively blind corner, or has a turn lane impeding your view by being placed offset from your lane. You start the turn and realize you missed a car. You floor the accelerator to try and get through the lane quicker. The inside tire spins, mitigating your forward progress, because you have no traction and very little power going to the ground. I used to be able to do this in my 106HP Civic CX with a D16Y7 swap. My 1990 Accord did it with 130HP and an automatic, and all of our Accord V6's will do it at well less than full throttle. Not a single LSD Honda I have will do it under any sort of sane circumstance. They will simply transfer the power, tuck the nose and go. If you are extremely aggressive and at nearly full steering lock, they will break the inside tire loose, but you still get a lot more traction on the outside wheel than you would have otherwise.
2) As has been mentioned: Slippery traction surfaces. You are at an intersection, and the light turns green. Your tires are less than ideal, and you sit there and spin at least momentarily because of a lack of traction. An LSD would divide that by at least half. You might still get a momentary traction loss, but while the open diff is struggling to gain traction, the LSD car is already hooked back up and moving off.
3) Take the same scenario as before, but add snow/ice and a slight incline. The LSD doesn't make the car invincible, but I have personally been in situations where my car was able to climb slopes that none of the open diff, FWD Hondas could even touch. They would simply spin the front tire and slide back down, or not be able to move. That has also been the case with my Accord which is swapped with a JDM LSD. On that car, even though I increased the torque by nearly 20 lb-ft and the HP by over 70, my traction capability increased by at least 50%, and I am able to negotiate slopes that the car couldn't handle open diff.
4) You are in loose sand or dirt. The probability of the car getting stuck is considerably less, because rather than one tire simply spinning and digging in, you have two tires that can attempt to get traction. This is why they put lockers and LSD diffs on off road trucks.
5) Your car is on a split Mu surface. Think of this as half on ice and half on dry pavement. With an open diff, the car will simply spin the tire on ice because the power always flows to the side with less resistance. With the LSD, as long as there is some degree of traction, it will start to transfer power to the other side. If you ever get the chance to experiment with an LSD car in the winter, I encourage you to try stuff like this. It will really highlight that while the LSD is not invincible, and while there are limitation to its performance, it really adds a whole new dimension of capability to the car. Here is a similar example I have from personal experience: I pulled off a mountain road during a winter drive to take a picture. I am well familiar with the road, and thought that the snow on the shoulder I pulled off on was not as deep as it was. I pulled off, and the right front wheel buried itself down in the snow. Such was the angle, that the car was sitting on 3 wheels with the driver's side back tire off the pavement. The left front was in the snow as well. Upon trying to free myself, the car would not move and both tires were spinning. With an open diff, I would have been done. I dug the snow out from behind the tires, and was able to reverse myself out of the spot because of the LSD allowing me to get a little bit of traction on the snow and ice.
That is 5 scenarios there, and not a single one of them had an ounce to do with "enthusiastic" driving, which, oh-by-the-way, is also made hugely more entertaining by the LSD. As you enter a corner with just a touch of excess speed, and the car starts to understeer or push, you simply add more throttle, and the LSD transfers more power to the outside front wheel. Since that tire is more heavily loaded by weight than the inside tire, the car simply tucks the nose, and stops pushing (maybe even tightening the line) instead of just spinning up the lightly loaded inside tire, causing even more push than you had. You don't even have to be going fast or have tons of power or revs in for it to work. The really enlightening part though is how much more neutral it makes the car. Not only does the car push less, but you can actually control the trajectory to a degree with throttle, something that isn't widely accepted to be possible with a FWD car. On my Accord, I have a Progress rear sway on it as well, and it is simply phenomonal how much more enjoyable the chassis is vs without the diff and sway. It is a whole new car in the handling department.
They simply have to be experienced to be believed, but they are not some useless feature unless you are running flat out. Even at the full $400 price difference between the open diff (Honda wholesale price) and the LSD (Honda wholesale price), it would have been unquestionably worth it for the enthusiast, who is likely the only one considering the 2.4 6MT anyway. Interestingly, Honda expects a 5% take rate, and the Veloster has been running a 30% MT take rate. Makes you wonder if it is the buyer or the product that drives MT sales down...
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A77
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
They only thing target demographics tell you is how the company is justifying how to sell some car that they think will meet the needs of one group based on some focus groups they held. Like in some other thread pointed out, this is very much the GM mentality. If you make a decent car people from multiple demographics will come and buy them as all people in a demographic don't always have the same needs. Look at the Element, or the PT Cruiser, or the original boxy Scion. They people who eneded up buying were nowhere near the target demographics.
The problem is tell me the last time a marketing department got fired for bungling a target demographic? What usually happens is the marketers blaime it on too little advertising dollars or spending in the wrong media, etc.
As someone said in another thread the sales guys know what customers want but I wonder how many times Honda conducts focus groups of salespeople? My bet is not very often if it happens at all.
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+1
So true. We did actually have a small meeting about the new CRV about a year ago - and I went in with very modest ambitions. I knew it was pointless to ask about a 6 speed manual, diesel options, hybrids (surely more sense acting on the rear wheels), etc. So I had one aim - to get some kind of red reinstated as a color option.
As regards cost - I bought an LSD for my Land Rover (Detroit Trutrack) and new it cost less than $400. For a quality maintenance free unit. That's full retail. That's not $400 more than the cost of an open diff. If the actual cost to honda is more than an extra $100 I'd be amazed. More like $50. By having no LSD for enthusiasts, and no auto 2.4 for everybody else, this is a shooting in the foot classic.
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S600=Dream
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Yeah, Owequit, homey...
I wasn't arguing with you dude. No need to rewrite the book on why the world needs more cars with limited slips...I'm right there with you!
I'm conceding! Don't kill me!
Sheesh.
FWIW, I don't think the personality of the ILX, as is at release, is fitting for any more enthusiast-minded stuff anyhow. I think the idea behind it was to make a luxury car, and not a sport compact. Now, whether or not that that was a good idea is another question all together, and I don't want to get into it. As of me typing this, frankly, I think it was awful nice of Acura to throw folks a bone and offer it with a manual transmission and a half decent engine. They could have just released it with the ole' R series and as a hybrid, but even cir. 2012 AHM isn't *that* dumb.
Also, I have a nagging feeling that Acura will probably release an ILX Type S or something like that in the future...possibly with it's MMC. It would make sense. It'd be a good opportunity to release the ED engine family to the ILX, and at the same time they tighten up suspension, add a racy body kit, add a limited slip...sounds pretty good. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption. Do you?
It would sort of explain why they didn't just go all out and make the ILX 2.4 a more straight up sport compact. They just didn't want to just let the cat out of the bag right away and give the car nowhere to go.
Anyhow, good conversation, all.
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S600=Dream
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Also, I never said those old cars didn't impress me. They impressed the f*ck out of me, which is why I am still visiting this site, still loving those cars, still getting called a Honda fanboy on every other car forum I ever visit, and own a substantial portion of my income's worth of Honda stock!
Don't get me wrong, I love what this company has done for the world of automobiles.
What I *said* is that I think a lot of people have outgrown that old concept of a relatively quick front drive car and have just moved on to the greener pastures of rear drive and big power, and Honda just doesn't offer than, never has, and probably never will.
I'm probably making assumptions that aren't true, but that's just how I see it, especially from outside the TOV "bubble".
So yeah, don't put words in a brother's text box.
Cheers!
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RocketRon
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Just posted this in a different thread, but I believe this demonstrate the advantage of an LSD.
In this race, you'll notice that the FWD Civic Type R (equipped with an heliociodal LSD) came out of the corners in a more agressive manner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cMZtCp9qu8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Track Results:
1.NSX, RWD, 3.2L, V6
2.Civic Type R, FWD, 2.0L, I4
3.350Z, RWD, 3.5L, V6
4.S2000, RWD, 2.4L, I4
5.Integra Type R, FWD, 1.8L, I4
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S600=Dream
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Okay, I'll just talk to the wall real quick.
S600=Dream, in *every* response since the first one I made here
LSD's are great, and all front drive cars would be better to the nth degree, and I agree with you all. I owe it to myself to drive/own a car with a limited slip differential.
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Okay. That's settled.
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owequitit
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S600=Dream wrote:
Yeah, Owequit, homey...
I wasn't arguing with you dude. No need to rewrite the book on why the world needs more cars with limited slips...I'm right there with you!
I'm conceding! Don't kill me!
Sheesh.
FWIW, I don't think the personality of the ILX, as is at release, is fitting for any more enthusiast-minded stuff anyhow. I think the idea behind it was to make a luxury car, and not a sport compact. Now, whether or not that that was a good idea is another question all together, and I don't want to get into it. As of me typing this, frankly, I think it was awful nice of Acura to throw folks a bone and offer it with a manual transmission and a half decent engine. They could have just released it with the ole' R series and as a hybrid, but even cir. 2012 AHM isn't *that* dumb.
Also, I have a nagging feeling that Acura will probably release an ILX Type S or something like that in the future...possibly with it's MMC. It would make sense. It'd be a good opportunity to release the ED engine family to the ILX, and at the same time they tighten up suspension, add a racy body kit, add a limited slip...sounds pretty good. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption. Do you?
It would sort of explain why they didn't just go all out and make the ILX 2.4 a more straight up sport compact. They just didn't want to just let the cat out of the bag right away and give the car nowhere to go.
Anyhow, good conversation, all.
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Don't try and front me homey...
You specifically asked for some real world examples and I gave them to you. Nothing more.
As for the ILX, I don't the think the car itself is the problem. It is the execution (the old adage about the devil being in the details). The first flaw is in your assertion that it wasn't really meant for "enthusiasts." Then why put a 6MT in it and not an auto? Who actually buys a 6MT and doesn't want an auto with the big engine? Enthusiasts. If Acura had put the K24 with an auto in it, and said "it isn't for enthusiasts," I wouldn't have said a word. But clearly, they WANT enthusiasts to buy it, because that is who buys a big engine with an MT. So why not go the full monty and give them the LSD and tech package? If you go look at the forums, the two biggest bitches about the 2.4 model are:
1) No LSD.
2) No Tech package.
I am not making this stuff up. I also agree with them, because that was my initial thought on release, and I was interested in this car... Granted, it would be pretty hard to justify a $33K car with 200HP, but at least it would have the chance of selling based on chassis dynamics and feel.
This, IMO, is simply another matter of Honda not really wanting to abandon the hoards of enthusiasts who buy cars from them, but not really wanting to embrace them either. It is fairly well known that there are two warring factions within Honda. Those that want the enthusiasts around, and those who think any enthusiast is a Fast and Furious ricer. You can see it right here on these boards, where anytime an enthusiast pipes up, guys like P54 try to quash them into submission.
As for people "moving on" to a different ideology, I disagree. There are many magnitudes more enthusiast focused cars sold than there are purely "green" cars sold. You can take cars like the Mustang, Camaro, Si, MS3, WRX, STI, M cars, Corvettes, Porsches, etc, and add them up and you get more than the total number of hybrid sales. Clearly, if the greenwashing wasn't just propaganda, then Honda wouldn't be able to keep CR-Z and Insights on lots, but alas, they are not meeting projections. In fact, the only hybrid that is an unquestionable sales success is the Prius. So if everyone wants green, why aren't those green cars topping the charts? Because the environmentalists WANT you to believe that everyone is going green. They never want to talk about actual sales (let alone without thousands in Gov't rebates), cost of ownership, true value of savings, or payoff horizon. They sure as hell don't want to talk about pollution displacement or any of the other backdoor issues with "green" cars.
I wouldn't count on ED bringing any major performance improvements to the table. You will see an average of 5-10HP across most models and trims. Hardly enough to resurrect a car like the ILX into a backroad bomber, and there are still no promises of even manual transmissions, let alone manual transmissions with LSD's.
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mobis21
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DCR wrote:
S600=Dream wrote:
Maybe some day we'll have something to come back to, but part of me just thinks that we should just focus on the positive and stop wishing for things that won't ever happen.
It makes visiting this website easier for me, at least.
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"We" know exactly where "we" are...trust me.
Coined as the most negative person on ToV, and one who cannot allow anything positive, I think your statement up there illustrates exactly what is wrong around here.
There seems to be some confusion about Honda enthusiasts...and I don't mean people who like little Fits and CR-Z's and things that don't go fast or rev hard. I am talking about the people who BUILT THIS SITE...those who are passionate about LSD's, K20's, redlines and the philosophy of Old Man Honda. This is their house...the rules of the "real world" do not really need to apply here. If talk about why the ILX 2.4 should have an LSD, and why it is dismissed because of that makes your stay here a little tougher, then I am sorry for your loss.
Look at your own screen name...
This isn't necessarily aimed at you, but:
Immense site contributors like Neal are taking a break from here because of the constant bullshit where NO ONE can have a conversation anymore about a performance car without some "new direction Honda" ball washer coming in and pissing on the parade. I see Ryan DL is back, but hell, haven't seen him in ages, and he used to wipe these folks off the site the nothing. You can't even discuss a previous Honda performance car because it spews earth killing CO2, or it didn't have enough hard plastics, had too many cupholders, too high of a redline and it was too much fun!
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LOL. the people that built this website.
They are driving Tahoes, Minivans, and station wagons now.
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owequitit
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mobis21 wrote:
DCR wrote:
S600=Dream wrote:
Maybe some day we'll have something to come back to, but part of me just thinks that we should just focus on the positive and stop wishing for things that won't ever happen.
It makes visiting this website easier for me, at least.
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"We" know exactly where "we" are...trust me.
Coined as the most negative person on ToV, and one who cannot allow anything positive, I think your statement up there illustrates exactly what is wrong around here.
There seems to be some confusion about Honda enthusiasts...and I don't mean people who like little Fits and CR-Z's and things that don't go fast or rev hard. I am talking about the people who BUILT THIS SITE...those who are passionate about LSD's, K20's, redlines and the philosophy of Old Man Honda. This is their house...the rules of the "real world" do not really need to apply here. If talk about why the ILX 2.4 should have an LSD, and why it is dismissed because of that makes your stay here a little tougher, then I am sorry for your loss.
Look at your own screen name...
This isn't necessarily aimed at you, but:
Immense site contributors like Neal are taking a break from here because of the constant bullshit where NO ONE can have a conversation anymore about a performance car without some "new direction Honda" ball washer coming in and pissing on the parade. I see Ryan DL is back, but hell, haven't seen him in ages, and he used to wipe these folks off the site the nothing. You can't even discuss a previous Honda performance car because it spews earth killing CO2, or it didn't have enough hard plastics, had too many cupholders, too high of a redline and it was too much fun!
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LOL. the people that built this website.
They are driving Tahoes, Minivans, and station wagons now.
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Nice try, but as usual, you fail.
1) In addition to his Acura TSX wagon (which is actually a fairly well setup, if modestly powered Acura), Jeff also has an S2000 that he babies in his garage. It is a sad state when one of Acura's most desirable weapons is a 200HP wagon with a 5AT that can barely clear 8 seconds in the 0-60 run... That is more of a failure of the course you are advocating than the course we are advocating. Now, go eat your crow.
2) Shawn also has an S2000 race car that makes somewhere in the vicinity of 500HP. He also modifies and tunes cars for a living, is one of the most prolific Honda tuners anywhere, and has more experience with cars than half of the people on this site will muster in 2 lifetimes. The Tahoe belongs to his wife because it is what she wanted. He drives an Infiniti G37 because Honda more or less refuses to build a proper sports sedan. That again, would be Honda's failing by providing what YOU want, and not what WE want.
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RocketRon
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This is the Temple of Vtec not the Temple of Earth Dreams.
I can't wait for Honda to produce a stunning performance hybrid vehicule but until then all we have is the power of dreams :)
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siegen
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owequitit wrote:
Then why put a 6MT in it and not an auto?
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My guess:
The ILX was going to get a manual transmission one way or another. The Civic sedan, Accord sedan and TSX offer it. The first logical step was to offer a manual with the R20. But perhaps there was no manual transmission available for that engine, or an R20/MT wasn't as cost-effective as a K24/6MT.
Whatever the reason, there do exist people that prefer or demand a manual transmission (and a larger engine), but would not be viewed by you as an enthusiast. If there wasn't, why does Honda/Acura offer a manual transmission on so many of its cars?
It may be true that an LSD will improve the driving experience even for these non-enthusiast people, but perhaps the cost, even a couple hundred bucks, wasn't worth it to the bean counters?
Forget about the tech package for a moment and ask yourself this: If the ILX did have an LSD, would you be satisfied with it? The answer has to be no. It's heavier than the Si and is not targeted towards enthusiasts nearly as much as the Si is. Having an LSD would just confuse things further. This isn't like when Acura offered the RSX-S without an LSD; the RSX-S being obviously targeted towards the enthusiast/racer/tuner crowd. The ILX is clearly geared towards the same kind of customer as the TSX.
As to why Acura doesn't also offer a K24/5AT, my guess is that they assumed all automatic transmission customers can be funneled to the R20/5AT, and the extra cost of a K24/5AT wouldn't result in enough increased sales (that didn't just come from the TSX) to be worth it.
Maybe the K24/5AT (or 6AT) will be coming, but they are waiting for the TSX to go away. Who knows.
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atomiclightbulb
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siegen wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Then why put a 6MT in it and not an auto?
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My guess:
The ILX was going to get a manual transmission one way or another. The Civic sedan, Accord sedan and TSX offer it. The first logical step was to offer a manual with the R20. But perhaps there was no manual transmission available for that engine, or an R20/MT wasn't as cost-effective as a K24/6MT.
Whatever the reason, there do exist people that prefer or demand a manual transmission (and a larger engine), but would not be viewed by you as an enthusiast. |
This is absolutely true. I am one of those people who enjoys rowing my own gears, but I don't ever take a car to the track or blast through twisty roads.
I have pushed my K24+5MT more than most drivers would, just out of curiosity, but the vast majority of my driving is pretty ordinary. There are a few folks like me who continue to buy pedestrian models with manuals. I would guess that most of this group are GenX'ers like me, or Baby Boomers. The young kids these days rarely drive a manual.
As to the R20 and manual... I think that Honda probably wanted to preserve parts commonality with the Civic Si. Honda's North American operations currently use K24+6MT powertrains, so it's probably no big deal to step up production slightly and divert some units into the ILX. While Honda does have a 6MT that is compatible with R-series engines (you can get an R18+6MT in the Euro Civic, for example), I don't believe that this particular 6MT is either built, or being shipped to, North America. The added complexity to the supply chain probably discouraged this choice. The performance numbers would also be decidedly unimpressive... probably in the 7.8-8.2 second range for 0-60 depending on the RPM at launch. That's more than good enough for people like me, but it's bad marketing when the competition is vehicles like the GTI.
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superchg2
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A77 wrote:
By having no LSD for enthusiasts, and no auto 2.4 for everybody else, this is a shooting in the foot classic.
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And let's not forget the exclusion of the technology package from the ILX 2.4.
The Acura whiz-bangs shot themselves in both feet!
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mobis21
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I'm going to go way left field. I'd might like to test an ILX with Honda's 2.2 diesel and a 6-speed manual. I'd buy that before the hybrid.
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superchg2
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The whiz-bangs evidently thought that the U.S. market did not need the 2.2 diesel in the TSX, and did not even get the automatic certified for U.S. consumption.
I wonder if we will get the new 1.6 diesel in say, a Fit. That puppie would probably get 55 m.p.g. with that power plant!
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Colin
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
siegen wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Then why put a 6MT in it and not an auto?
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My guess:
The ILX was going to get a manual transmission one way or another. The Civic sedan, Accord sedan and TSX offer it. The first logical step was to offer a manual with the R20. But perhaps there was no manual transmission available for that engine, or an R20/MT wasn't as cost-effective as a K24/6MT.
Whatever the reason, there do exist people that prefer or demand a manual transmission (and a larger engine), but would not be viewed by you as an enthusiast. |
This is absolutely true. I am one of those people who enjoys rowing my own gears, but I don't ever take a car to the track or blast through twisty roads.
I have pushed my K24+5MT more than most drivers would, just out of curiosity, but the vast majority of my driving is pretty ordinary. There are a few folks like me who continue to buy pedestrian models with manuals. I would guess that most of this group are GenX'ers like me, or Baby Boomers. The young kids these days rarely drive a manual.
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I'll add my voice to this chorus. I want/demand a manual but don't care if it has or doesn't have an LSD. IOW, I'd take the diff if it came that way, but wouldn't exclude the purchase if it didn't have it. Interestingly, I feel the same way about Navi; I don't need it but do want BT and USB connectivity so it's nice that this is broken out of the Tech Package (unlike in the Fit where Navi is required for BT, but MT isn't available with Navi...).
Personally I think there are too many choices, and considering this car's price point and HMCs desire to 'mass produce' cars vs. custom ordering options (which they don't do at any price point much less an entry level one), they might have been better served by trimming choice and making more standard. In the end, there is no easy answer or one 'best' scenario for everybody. They will only sell 40K a year and that alone should show you that they 'know' their choices will exclude some, if not most buyers.
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Colin
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superchg2 wrote:
A77 wrote:
By having no LSD for enthusiasts, and no auto 2.4 for everybody else, this is a shooting in the foot classic.
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And let's not forget the exclusion of the technology package from the ILX 2.4.
The Acura whiz-bangs shot themselves in both feet!
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A77, it does seem like the 'worst of both worlds' but I'll take a logical counterpoint to the lack of Tech + 6MT. With the 6MT take rate hovering around 5%, that is only ~2000 units a year. This is only 166 units per month and with ~260 Acura dealers, that's less than 1 per dealer per month BEFORE you add any colors.
Adding the Tech as a 2nd manual option is not feasible at this volume. So the only choice would have been to make the manual only Tech or only Premium. Whichever you choose, somebody will have something to complain about (please recall the debates on PND vs. Smart Phone vs. Navi).
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owequitit
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siegen wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Then why put a 6MT in it and not an auto?
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My guess:
The ILX was going to get a manual transmission one way or another. The Civic sedan, Accord sedan and TSX offer it. The first logical step was to offer a manual with the R20. But perhaps there was no manual transmission available for that engine, or an R20/MT wasn't as cost-effective as a K24/6MT.
Whatever the reason, there do exist people that prefer or demand a manual transmission (and a larger engine), but would not be viewed by you as an enthusiast. If there wasn't, why does Honda/Acura offer a manual transmission on so many of its cars?
It may be true that an LSD will improve the driving experience even for these non-enthusiast people, but perhaps the cost, even a couple hundred bucks, wasn't worth it to the bean counters?
Forget about the tech package for a moment and ask yourself this: If the ILX did have an LSD, would you be satisfied with it? The answer has to be no. It's heavier than the Si and is not targeted towards enthusiasts nearly as much as the Si is. Having an LSD would just confuse things further. This isn't like when Acura offered the RSX-S without an LSD; the RSX-S being obviously targeted towards the enthusiast/racer/tuner crowd. The ILX is clearly geared towards the same kind of customer as the TSX.
As to why Acura doesn't also offer a K24/5AT, my guess is that they assumed all automatic transmission customers can be funneled to the R20/5AT, and the extra cost of a K24/5AT wouldn't result in enough increased sales (that didn't just come from the TSX) to be worth it.
Maybe the K24/5AT (or 6AT) will be coming, but they are waiting for the TSX to go away. Who knows.
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It's nice of you to try an put words in my mouth, but too bad you still fail again.
1) The ONLY cars Honda still puts manuals in are the ones that supposed to be geared toward enthusiasts. You pretend that there is a plethora of Honda models with MT's these days.
You have:
1) The Fit Sport MT. Maybe not an "enthusiast" car in the traditional vein, but certainly geared toward someone who wants to maximize available performance and is willing to pay a bit more money for car guy type upgrades. Hence an "enthusiast."
2) The Civic Si. If this isn't geared toward "enthusiasts," I don't know what is.
3) The Accord EX-L V6 6MT. Not only is this the top shelf option, but it comes with a completely different engine setup that puts it deep into the 14's if not the 13's in acceleration. Lacking an LSD, yes; but unquestionably geared toward someone looking to maximize performance and fun to drive quotient. Hence "enthusiast."
4) Acura TSX SE 6MT. Again, geared toward someone looking to maximize performance and kit relative to the other options in the model range, and specifically sought out by "enthusiasts."
5) Acura TL 6MT. Practically special order only, and loaded on the top trim level performance wise, which would make it desirable to car guys looking to maximize performance and kit.
6) CR-Z 6MT. While not nearly as fun as the Si, the Accord V6 or TL in terms of acceleration, it is relatively fun for a hybrid and worlds better to drive than the CVT model. This model is also much harder to find than the "regular" version (just like every car on the above list) and is geared wholly toward those looking to maximize performance and "kit", which would make them enthusiasts.
7) That leaves us with the ILX, which equips a larger engine, a transmission that only about 3% of Honda's customers demand, and the promise of higher performance. The only people I know who demand a manual are "enthusiasts" to one degree or another.
Now, your defense is completely destroyed by two simple facts.
1) I didn't say nobody would want them, I said that Acura is severely limiting the potential by not offering the two items that are most desired by enthusiasts. Like I said, go take a look around other forums and see what people are saying. You act like I am making it up, and you probably don't want to because it would blow your house of cards to the wind as to the reality of Honda's standing among enthusiasts.
2) It is very kind of you to put words in my mouth, assume (which only makes an ass out of u to me) that you know what I want, and to construct a scarecrow of defense against it.
First, let me start by saying that I would personally be among the group that would want an ILX with LSD AND tech package. Can't get either. For 200HP and ~$33K (extrapolating for what the car might cost based on other package additions), the car would have a hell of a fight on its hands. But, I am loyal to Honda, and prefer their reliability, so that would tip the balance heavily in their favor. I also happen to like the styling of the ILX, and I happen to like small, sporty, luxurious cars. The Si is none of those things. I do not like the Si because the interior is horrible, the powerband does not fit the character of the model, etc. However, had you actually paid attention in class before you started accusing me of things, you would have seen many times that I said the K24Z7 was a fitting engine in a car like the ILX, where I am not going to want to rape it to make it go. Given the choice between a properly loaded ILX and an SI, I would the ILX hands down. Which brings us to the real issue with the argument. You want to make the point that just because Group X doesn't want the car, that it is OK because Group Y will. The problem with that is that with very subtle changes, Acura could have had both. More sales = more sense, so why not? You simply want to attempt to justify Honda's poor product planning. I can also assure you that the people who would have wanted a real luxury car with all of the options, and a dynamically poised chassis, outnumbers the group that wouldn't have touched it with a 10 foot pole. Further, the whole benefit to options is that people could have had what they wanted, making the product more appealing.
As for your assertion of the cost of the ILX, I seriously doubt that 1% or less on the MSRP would have swayed a single persons decision making process against the car. If it would have, they are shopping beyond what they can afford anyway.
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mobis21
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superchg2 wrote:
The whiz-bangs evidently thought that the U.S. market did not need the 2.2 diesel in the TSX, and did not even get the automatic certified for U.S. consumption.
I wonder if we will get the new 1.6 diesel in say, a Fit. That puppie would probably get 55 m.p.g. with that power plant!
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I'm not aware of the 1.6 diesel. That would make the fit a fantastic package.
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superchg2
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mobis21 wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
The whiz-bangs evidently thought that the U.S. market did not need the 2.2 diesel in the TSX, and did not even get the automatic certified for U.S. consumption.
I wonder if we will get the new 1.6 diesel in say, a Fit. That puppie would probably get 55 m.p.g. with that power plant!
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I'm not aware of the 1.6 diesel. That would make the fit a fantastic package.
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This is from Autocar. Not sure if we will see this engine in any of our cars, though.
"Honda Civic 1.6 i-DTEC
What is it?
It's what has been missing from the Honda Civic line up for much too long, but the good news is that the new 118bhp, 221lb ft 1.6-litre turbodiesel will arrive in the UK at the end of 2012.
The all-new alloy unit is the lightest diesel plant in the world according to Honda, weighing roughly the same or less as an equivalent petrol motor. Mated to a six-speed manual gearbox as standard, the new Civic will sit beneath the 2.2-litre diesel model and will compete with the likes of the VW Golf Bluemotion, offering sub-100g/km CO2."
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atomiclightbulb
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owequitit wrote:
It's nice of you to try an put words in my mouth, but too bad you still fail again.
1) The ONLY cars Honda still puts manuals in are the ones that supposed to be geared toward enthusiasts. You pretend that there is a plethora of Honda models with MT's these days.
You have: |
That is grossly inaccurate.
I know because I keep a very close eye on Honda's mainstream offerings that have the option for a manual. I am one of those customers who doesn't need a sporty car, but wants to row my own gears.
The Honda Accord Sedan LX and EX are both available with 5MT: http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/specifications.aspx
The Honda Accord Coupe LX-S and EX (4-cylinder) are both available with 5MT: http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-coupe/specifications.aspx
The Honda Civic Sedan DX and LX are both available with 5MT: http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-sedan/specifications.aspx
The Honda Civic Coupe DX, LX, and EX (non-Navi) are available with 5MT: http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-coupe/
As reported here on ToV, the 9G Honda Accord due this fall will be widely available with 6MT: http://vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=1062301
For Sedans, LX, Sport, and EX will get a 6MT for their 4-cylinder models. 4-cylinder coupe LX-S and EX also get a 6MT.
I agree that Honda and Acura should offer more enthusiast-oriented options, but to say that they only offer MT on enthusiast models is flat out false.
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DrWhiner
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mobis21 wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
The whiz-bangs evidently thought that the U.S. market did not need the 2.2 diesel in the TSX, and did not even get the automatic certified for U.S. consumption.
I wonder if we will get the new 1.6 diesel in say, a Fit. That puppie would probably get 55 m.p.g. with that power plant!
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I'm not aware of the 1.6 diesel. That would make the fit a fantastic package.
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owequitit
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
owequitit wrote:
It's nice of you to try an put words in my mouth, but too bad you still fail again.
1) The ONLY cars Honda still puts manuals in are the ones that supposed to be geared toward enthusiasts. You pretend that there is a plethora of Honda models with MT's these days.
You have: |
That is grossly inaccurate.
I know because I keep a very close eye on Honda's mainstream offerings that have the option for a manual. I am one of those customers who doesn't need a sporty car, but wants to row my own gears.
The Honda Accord Sedan LX and EX are both available with 5MT: http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/specifications.aspx
The Honda Accord Coupe LX-S and EX (4-cylinder) are both available with 5MT: http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-coupe/specifications.aspx
The Honda Civic Sedan DX and LX are both available with 5MT: http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-sedan/specifications.aspx
The Honda Civic Coupe DX, LX, and EX (non-Navi) are available with 5MT: http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-coupe/
As reported here on ToV, the 9G Honda Accord due this fall will be widely available with 6MT: http://vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=1062301
For Sedans, LX, Sport, and EX will get a 6MT for their 4-cylinder models. 4-cylinder coupe LX-S and EX also get a 6MT.
I agree that Honda and Acura should offer more enthusiast-oriented options, but to say that they only offer MT on enthusiast models is flat out false.
|
Not really grossly inaccurate. Try finding one of those manual options on a lot...
You guys can spin it any way you want. The only people looking for manuals in 99% of cases are "enthusiasts." Other people just don't buy them, which is why AHM's availability of them runs between 1-3%. It is also unlikely that these guys are going to order and wait for a month or more to get the MT version that doesn't exist. It is just the like the DX/VP trims back in the day. Honda put them out to say they had them, but good luck finding one. You could search in metro areas with literally THOUSANDS of Honda cars for sale and find only 1 or 2 in the entire area. As for the 9th gen Accord, only the lower trim levels will be "widely" available with MT. Of course, you could also strongly argue that Honda's softening, decontenting and removal of enthusiast values contributes to lower MT sales. Companies like BMW, Mazda, and Subaru all have higher MT take rates because they still build cars for the group most likely to buy MT's...enthusiasts.
Also, if the "not for an enthusiast" card was correct, then there is still no logical reason to hold out on options like the tech package, because most "non-enthusiasts" buying such a car would want the Navigation and ELS. So, you MIGHT be able to make a case for the LSD, but you sure as hell can't make one for the lack of options, and I would argue that by attempting to make one for the lack of LSD, you are limiting Honda's potential market by up to 2/3, because let's face it that while there are very few people (I never said they were non-existent) who would want a manual just for a manual, the reality is that only the enthusiasts are going to buy in bulk.
What is really ironic is how you guys pull the "intended for a broader audience" B.S. when you need it to suit your argument, with regard to shitty engines, half-assed suspensions etc, but then when you get called on it, it is more smokescreen about all of these throngs of consumers buying regular MT models that just don't exist. Either Honda intended the car for regulars, or enthusiasts, but it is quite clear from content on both ends that they shot themselves in the foot in both instances.
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owequitit
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
owequitit wrote:
It's nice of you to try an put words in my mouth, but too bad you still fail again.
1) The ONLY cars Honda still puts manuals in are the ones that supposed to be geared toward enthusiasts. You pretend that there is a plethora of Honda models with MT's these days.
You have: |
That is grossly inaccurate.
I know because I keep a very close eye on Honda's mainstream offerings that have the option for a manual. I am one of those customers who doesn't need a sporty car, but wants to row my own gears.
The Honda Accord Sedan LX and EX are both available with 5MT: http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/specifications.aspx
The Honda Accord Coupe LX-S and EX (4-cylinder) are both available with 5MT: http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-coupe/specifications.aspx
The Honda Civic Sedan DX and LX are both available with 5MT: http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-sedan/specifications.aspx
The Honda Civic Coupe DX, LX, and EX (non-Navi) are available with 5MT: http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-coupe/
As reported here on ToV, the 9G Honda Accord due this fall will be widely available with 6MT: http://vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=1062301
For Sedans, LX, Sport, and EX will get a 6MT for their 4-cylinder models. 4-cylinder coupe LX-S and EX also get a 6MT.
I agree that Honda and Acura should offer more enthusiast-oriented options, but to say that they only offer MT on enthusiast models is flat out false.
|
P.S. I don't know how to put it any clearer than this: I prefer small-medium sized cars, luxuriously appointed is preffered, with basic, but distinctive styling that ages well. I like V6's, but am not opposed to I4's because Honda's are so good. I also like the additional dynamic advantages of smaller engines. I like MT's, and I thought the K24 was a good fit for the mission. Seems like the ILX should fit the bill right?
However, the lack of tech was the primary turn off, with the LSD actually being the second. However, I can't rationalize why Honda wouldn't either go for the "enthusiast" crowd (with an LSD, recalibrated suspension, tires and brakes, or go for the "smart luxury" crowd with TECH package. It just makes no sense. I would have been about 100% more interested either way. So in theory, the ILX SHOULD have been a very appealing car to me, but in execution it is not... For the record, the first gen TSX is one of my most ideal Acura sedans ever, and this is relatively similar in size and performance. But, I could get anything I wanted on that one too...
P.S. it should be noted that nearly ALL of Honda's MT cars, minus the Si are pretty hard to find. And that is fairly rare in and of itself.
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siegen
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owequitit wrote:
It's nice of you to try an put words in my mouth, but too bad you still fail again.
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Perhaps you're confusing who you're talking to or are responding to the incorrect person; I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth and that was my first post in response to you in quite some time on any topic.
I'm sorry if you became overly defensive from my reply. I can't see why you would resort to so much hostility. If you would, please read my reply again but under the context that I am not trying to argue with you, but am instead providing a guess in response to your question, and also pointing out that enthusiasts of your caliber are not the only ones that purchase manuals (not assuming or asserting much by this).
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atomiclightbulb
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owequitit wrote:
Not really grossly inaccurate. Try finding one of those manual options on a lot...
You guys can spin it any way you want. |
Seriously? That's moving the goalposts. And it doesn't change the result.
It took me less than a minute on autotrader to find 25 new Honda Accords with manual transmission within 25 miles of my location. LX and EX sedans, LX-S and EX coupes, and EX V6 coupes are all in-stock.
There are roughly 50 new Honda Civics with manual transmission within the same radius. About half are Si, but there is a good mix of LX sedan, LX coupe, and EX coupe to choose from.
I could go to any of my area dealers first thing tomorrow morning, write a check, and drive off the lot with a brand new manual Accord or Civic.
| The only people looking for manuals in 99% of cases are "enthusiasts." Other people just don't buy them, which is why AHM's availability of them runs between 1-3%. It is also unlikely that these guys are going to order and wait for a month or more to get the MT version that doesn't exist. |
"Other people" do by them. I'm one of those "other people", and I know a few "other people" who still buy the manual even if they are not performance enthusiasts.
| Also, if the "not for an enthusiast" card was correct, then there is still no logical reason to hold out on options like the tech package, because most "non-enthusiasts" buying such a car would want the Navigation and ELS. So, you MIGHT be able to make a case for the LSD, but you sure as hell can't make one for the lack of options, and I would argue that by attempting to make one for the lack of LSD, you are limiting Honda's potential market by up to 2/3, because let's face it that while there are very few people (I never said they were non-existent) who would want a manual just for a manual, the reality is that only the enthusiasts are going to buy in bulk. |
Wait, first you say "Other people just don't buy them (manual transmission Honda)" and then you say "I never said they were non-existent"... that's contradictory. Blanket statement, and then exceptions? Which is it?
I agree with you that the lack of higher end options on the 2.4L ILX is a problem and makes no sense. I've stated repeatedly in other threads that this made no sense. The highest performing model should have the best equipment available. Notyper covered this in detail already using the Infiniti G37 6MT as an example and I agree with his assessment.
Perhaps I should have made my point more clear: I understand the perspective of people who want higher performance vehicles with all the good options. I only ask that ToV members acknowledge that a segment of the community who are not performance enthusiasts do value manual transmissions.
The performance oriented people here at ToV are upset that Honda has ignored their complaints as if they "do not exist". So when you are dismissive of people like me, just because we are not in large numbers, can you reasonably expect us not to be equally annoyed?
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