Hondarulez wrote: The author seems to pick examples just to prove his points - the resistance against V6, turbo 4, Crosstour, RDX, HondaJet, and Asimo.
And they're not so much "points" as opinions. He clearly thinks the Crosstour is ugly. Not only that, but it should be discontinued because it's ugly.
Yet I'm not sure what that opinion has to do with the demise of the company.
And what's his point about F1? Doesn't Honda have a history of racing and a history in F1? Yet building up and then owning a team there was a massive mistake? An "undisciplined pursuit of more" in a step towards the company's demise? Please. Just because Honda left after the Lehman crisis does not make it a mistake to have participated and invested. In fact, most think the very opposite - that leaving was a mistake.
It has to do WITH WHO is making the judgment calls........If they would have put the Crosstour on FB and TOV as an Idea for a production, we would be selling a FULL BLOWN WAGON, not the Crosstour as it sits today, the PUBLIC would NEVER have agreed to it...........I think it is a GREAT CAR, I would own one, but if I had a LIKE Wagon to choose from, I would pick the wagon.........THE PUBLIC IS REJECTING IT!
Honda has build vehicles in the past 10 years that have MISSED the marketing class it expected.......The Element, the "Dorm room on wheels" Well, more like the Retirement home on wheels.........Most of my customers are over 60..........The Insight 1st gen.......16,000 in 7 years........WTF.........2nd gen Insight, I was SO EXCITED about this car, I wanted one, I posted on here I was going to buy one........then I sat in the back seat.........SEE YA!.......and when you sell Toyota's too.........it's an embarrassment........THE PUBLIC REJECTED IT! The CRZ.........WTF, I love it too, but I am not going to buy 3,000 a month, the PUBLIC has REJECTED IT!..........the Ridgeline, I love that too.........AGAIN, the PUBLIC HAS REJECTED IT............ZDX..........Again, (I must be NUTS) I think it is SO COOL, but the PUBLIC HAS REJECTED THAT.........
If the Accord can't make the cut, it's going to be a hard year next year..........People are losing their jobs left and right, supporting 2 and 3 family members.........they want a car that makes them feel SPECIAL.........And there are a LOT of other brands, not the quality or reliability that Honda has, but people want LOOKS, and luxury for not a lot of money..........Honda is not there......and people will PAY extra for a Honda, but not if it is ugly........SURE, the Civic is selling VERY WELL, but how many sales are we losing STILL...............??????
Actually, it's been worse.. AHM has declined JDM cars from HMC that came back to bite them in the ass.. first gen CR-V and Jazz...
The Jazz/Fit and it's variations are what the Element was supposed to be... AHM must think that College Kids are rich enough to by 28K cars? Or rather, that mom and dad are rich enough to pay for tuition and an Element?
Besides, the Fit is hip like a Scion.... the Element just doesn't work... not only is it's split, two passenger only rear seat a real DUMB idea... after all, college kids with cars tend to have lots of friends without cars.. but the way it folds is too complicated and takes up too much space... college kids need all the seating and cargo room they can get... The Fit is the answer for them..
Indeed, an R18'd Honda Shuttle would be THE car for college kids... and lots of us grown ups too.
Got news for AHM... when mom and dad can afford tuition and an Element, they usually go and give the damn kid their old Bimmer and then go lease themselves a new one.
IMHO, someone at AHM is screwing things up Royally.... likely telling upper management that everything is honky dory while the decisions being made are flat out wrong headed.
One would hope that the fiasco with the Power Plenum and the thing with CR recently would open up Upper Management's eyes to the need to revisit and redo AHM's brand management again.
Hondarulez wrote: The author seems to pick examples just to prove his points - the resistance against V6, turbo 4, Crosstour, RDX, HondaJet, and Asimo.
And they're not so much "points" as opinions. He clearly thinks the Crosstour is ugly. Not only that, but it should be discontinued because it's ugly.
Yet I'm not sure what that opinion has to do with the demise of the company.
And what's his point about F1? Doesn't Honda have a history of racing and a history in F1? Yet building up and then owning a team there was a massive mistake? An "undisciplined pursuit of more" in a step towards the company's demise? Please. Just because Honda left after the Lehman crisis does not make it a mistake to have participated and invested. In fact, most think the very opposite - that leaving was a mistake.
It has to do WITH WHO is making the judgment calls........If they would have put the Crosstour on FB and TOV as an Idea for a production, we would be selling a FULL BLOWN WAGON, not the Crosstour as it sits today, the PUBLIC would NEVER have agreed to it...........I think it is a GREAT CAR, I would own one, but if I had a LIKE Wagon to choose from, I would pick the wagon.........THE PUBLIC IS REJECTING IT!
Honda has build vehicles in the past 10 years that have MISSED the marketing class it expected.......The Element, the "Dorm room on wheels" Well, more like the Retirement home on wheels.........Most of my customers are over 60..........The Insight 1st gen.......16,000 in 7 years........WTF.........2nd gen Insight, I was SO EXCITED about this car, I wanted one, I posted on here I was going to buy one........then I sat in the back seat.........SEE YA!.......and when you sell Toyota's too.........it's an embarrassment........THE PUBLIC REJECTED IT! The CRZ.........WTF, I love it too, but I am not going to buy 3,000 a month, the PUBLIC has REJECTED IT!..........the Ridgeline, I love that too.........AGAIN, the PUBLIC HAS REJECTED IT............ZDX..........Again, (I must be NUTS) I think it is SO COOL, but the PUBLIC HAS REJECTED THAT.........
If the Accord can't make the cut, it's going to be a hard year next year..........People are losing their jobs left and right, supporting 2 and 3 family members.........they want a car that makes them feel SPECIAL.........And there are a LOT of other brands, not the quality or reliability that Honda has, but people want LOOKS, and luxury for not a lot of money..........Honda is not there......and people will PAY extra for a Honda, but not if it is ugly........SURE, the Civic is selling VERY WELL, but how many sales are we losing STILL...............??????
I agree with almost all of what you're saying Andrew, but is it really fair to say the Ridgeline was rejected? Don't forget when the platform came out it was lavished with awards and sold many thousand per month. We have to be careful not to get caught up in over-analyzing a platform that is at or beyond the end of its cycle or comparing it to something like an F-150 because they're not the same type of truck.
Think about it, It doesn't have bluetooth, USB OR even a telescopic steering wheel. It's Navi is still 1st Gen......HONDA has all but abandoned it.........they don't advertise it, push it, NOTHING! I have a customer now that wants on, he has had a new one every 3 years since they came out, but he will not get a 2013 if it is the same as his 2010........He doesn't mind the look, it's the inside.......
SO, the public has rejected it. NOW, the SPORT has stirred up a lot of interest, because they saw it in some adds......and that is what they need to do. It's ALWAYS BEEN MARKETING.......ALWAYS! and Honda has been a catastrophic failure in that department for 10++ years.......
We know they're bad at marketing but you're proving my point above. You're judging it now 6 years into it's cycle knowing that Honda has let it age on the vine. If you go back a few years you can't say that the idea of the Ridgeline was rejected. If they give it some much-needed attention it will be right back in the game.
HONDA AFVM wrote: Your average Honda customer would welcome a standard wagon, Acura makes a wagon because other luxury brands make one. It's a great vehicle, but scale it down a bit, start it at $24,000 and loaded at $33,000 and you would see how it would out sell the Crosstour.......
True, the interior of the Crosstour is not larger than the Accord/TSX. It's main advantage is that being taller, it's much easier to get in and out and the driving sight lines are a bit better than in the lower sedan.
However, at $23K you're talking Civic wagon.
...and the Crosstour kicks ass on the road, per you. The total interior volume of the TSX wagon may be more than the CT, but only when packed to the roof. We have both a Crosstour and TSX sedan, and the CT has way more passenger room than the TSX in normal everyday use, especially rear legroom. (Not to overly defend the Crosstour, of course - it meets our current needs, shortcomings and all.)
Yes, I'm concerned about the prospects for Honda, since we plan to remain "in the fold" if we should decide to replace the Crosstour with an RDX down the road. The article was cruel-ish but Honda needs to pay attention.
I take HONDA AFVM at total accuracy as he sells Hondas (and a couple other brands) EVERY DAY. He speaks with customers, hears their hopes, dreams and fears and writes up the deals (or not). He is in the trenches as we sit in our armchairs.
While his word choice may not always be the best, if he says "rejected" then rejected it is. He knows what he needs to sell and what he needs to responds to the competition - as his very livelihood is at risk. It doesn't get more real-world than that.
Neal wrote: I take HONDA AFVM at total accuracy as he sells Hondas (and a couple other brands) EVERY DAY. He speaks with customers, hears their hopes, dreams and fears and writes up the deals (or not). He is in the trenches as we sit in our armchairs.
While his word choice may not always be the best, if he says "rejected" then rejected it is. He knows what he needs to sell and what he needs to responds to the competition - as his very livelihood is at risk. It doesn't get more real-world than that.
There is nothing to really argue with what Andrew said. The Honda sales folks I know from the decades I have been with the brand have said the exact same things. In fact, one of them said something along the lines of "I never used to have to SELL a Honda vehicle..."
Where Mable falls apart is falling into the typical enthusiast trap of thinking that his desires, and the desires of C/D’s readers are also those of the market. All the world’s damnation can’t stop the Civic from being America’s third-best selling car (just barely behind the second place Altima). The Accord, Odyssey and Pilot are also selling well. The CR-V, despite its lack of fancy technology or interesting styling is far and away America’s best-selling crossover this year.
This is what separates the Honda of 2012 from the GM of 1981, despite what Mable thinks. GM did create ”…highly engineered but woefully underdeveloped products.” Honda, on the other hand, is making products that may not be on the cutting edge of engineering, but actually add value and make the lives of customers easier. Nevermind the enormous delta in quality between the two companies.
While most critics (and the B&B) were lukewarm on the CR-V because it didn’t have GDI, turbocharging or whatever flash-in-the-pan technology was being touted by the buff books, I went long on the CR-V because Honda had created a well-thought out crossover with features that actually mattered to the people buying the cars. 9.9 times out of 10, a low load floor and rear seats that fold with one touch will beat MyFord Touch or Fluidic Sculpture styling. Mable also admonishes the current Accord for offering a V6 when others are moving to turbocharged 4-cylinder engines, while noting the irony of Honda taking forever to offer a V6 despite dealers and customers begging for one. Mable must have forgot that the best selling car in America, the Toyota Camry, still offers a V6, while smaller players, like the Hyundai Sonata, the lackluster Chevrolet Malibu and still-unreleased Ford Fusion are moving to the blown 4-cylinders. If you’re Honda, then you’re gunning for the Camry, not the bit players.
I’m starting to wonder if the press has reached their breaking point with Honda. No matter how hard they try to malign their products as boring, a waste of money or behind the curve, they keep selling. Could Honda really have their finger on the pulse of what the consumers want. You know, the people who actually spend their own money on cars? For every single segment Honda competes in, I can easily think of a competitive product that I’d rather have (ok, maybe not in the minivan segment). It never used to be that way. But if you really are only as good as your last product, well…maybe Honda isn’t in such trouble after all
Neal wrote: I take HONDA AFVM at total accuracy as he sells Hondas (and a couple other brands) EVERY DAY. He speaks with customers, hears their hopes, dreams and fears and writes up the deals (or not). He is in the trenches as we sit in our armchairs.
While his word choice may not always be the best, if he says "rejected" then rejected it is. He knows what he needs to sell and what he needs to responds to the competition - as his very livelihood is at risk. It doesn't get more real-world than that.
Perhaps I'm splitting hairs but you can't say the Ridgeline was rejected early in its cycle. It was a solid success for Honda as the niche vehicle it was. Of course people don't want it now, its 6 years old without being updated much at all. My point is if Honda can add some magic back into it with a redesign and market it properly (joke), it won't be "rejected".
Neal wrote: I take HONDA AFVM at total accuracy as he sells Hondas (and a couple other brands) EVERY DAY. He speaks with customers, hears their hopes, dreams and fears and writes up the deals (or not). He is in the trenches as we sit in our armchairs.
While his word choice may not always be the best, if he says "rejected" then rejected it is. He knows what he needs to sell and what he needs to responds to the competition - as his very livelihood is at risk. It doesn't get more real-world than that.
Yes, perhaps it was the word choice that got me. Overall I do regard Andrew as somewhat of an authority on these things.
The article is poorly written, almost troll-like. Honestly, we all know that Honda/Acura has problems, but the way this car wrote it isn't very credible.
I was at work so didn't write a very thorough response, but this is what I had in the comments section:
This article might have more credibility if it didn't have so many minor errors.
1) Have you noticed that all of the Japanese automakers still use V6 engines (Chrysler too)? Toyota, Honda, Nissan. Even Mazda hasn't moved onwards to turbocharged power to a large degree. More than that, do consumers demand turbo 4s like they demanded V6s?
2) The author did not mention how BMW's investment in Rover turned out. Historically, Honda has never sought to buy out other companies.
3) Not sure what the implication of a sales scandal has on the company. The author failed to mention the hundreds of other scandals that have "tarnished" company reputations- everything from Toyota's recent UA debacle to BMW's nazi connotations. But none of those are really ever relevant to any automaker's sucess, is it?
4)I would point to Honda's weak hybrids as more concerning than the Crosstour- but to that point, the Crosstour concept previews a mid-cycle refresh, not a next generation model.
5)ASIMO and Hondajet research commenced since the early 1980's. The most egregious part of the author's argument is that he doesn't seem to realize that Honda is a group of companies, of which the automotive division is one part. There is a powersports, small engine utility, and several motorcycle divisions. The ASIMO research is mostly relevant to Honda's home market (with an aging population), and the HondaJet program will probably prove to be a profitable foray. None of these projects are directly related to the automotive program, they're only part of the umbrella name of Honda.
Honestly, some of these complaints by the author is just weird. Honda has more than its fair share of problems, and I do believe there is a management problem. However, the facts seem to be lacking.
Where Mable falls apart is falling into the typical enthusiast trap of thinking that his desires, and the desires of C/D’s readers are also those of the market. All the world’s damnation can’t stop the Civic from being America’s third-best selling car (just barely behind the second place Altima). The Accord, Odyssey and Pilot are also selling well. The CR-V, despite its lack of fancy technology or interesting styling is far and away America’s best-selling crossover this year.
This is what separates the Honda of 2012 from the GM of 1981, despite what Mable thinks. GM did create ”…highly engineered but woefully underdeveloped products.” Honda, on the other hand, is making products that may not be on the cutting edge of engineering, but actually add value and make the lives of customers easier. Nevermind the enormous delta in quality between the two companies.
While most critics (and the B&B) were lukewarm on the CR-V because it didn’t have GDI, turbocharging or whatever flash-in-the-pan technology was being touted by the buff books, I went long on the CR-V because Honda had created a well-thought out crossover with features that actually mattered to the people buying the cars. 9.9 times out of 10, a low load floor and rear seats that fold with one touch will beat MyFord Touch or Fluidic Sculpture styling. Mable also admonishes the current Accord for offering a V6 when others are moving to turbocharged 4-cylinder engines, while noting the irony of Honda taking forever to offer a V6 despite dealers and customers begging for one. Mable must have forgot that the best selling car in America, the Toyota Camry, still offers a V6, while smaller players, like the Hyundai Sonata, the lackluster Chevrolet Malibu and still-unreleased Ford Fusion are moving to the blown 4-cylinders. If you’re Honda, then you’re gunning for the Camry, not the bit players.
I’m starting to wonder if the press has reached their breaking point with Honda. No matter how hard they try to malign their products as boring, a waste of money or behind the curve, they keep selling. Could Honda really have their finger on the pulse of what the consumers want. You know, the people who actually spend their own money on cars? For every single segment Honda competes in, I can easily think of a competitive product that I’d rather have (ok, maybe not in the minivan segment). It never used to be that way. But if you really are only as good as your last product, well…maybe Honda isn’t in such trouble after all
+1 to this.
The C/D blog was embarrassing.
Dismissing the importance of ASIMO and the HondaJet was my favorite part - because obviously robotics and aeronautics have no future viability. Or was it when he talked about the first generation RDX (which, you know, came out in 2006 and obviously is extremely relevant in talking about why Honda has problems today. Never mind the record sales of the CURRENT RDX and nevermind that the current Civic is the best-selling car in the segment). Or was it when he tried to compare the sales impact of the Tsunami in Japan and flooding in Thailand to their review of the 2012 Civic. Actually I think TTAC got it right - the V6 example is my favorite because I cannot actually figure out what the author is trying to convey. Hubris would imply that Honda is out of touch with the market and that their ego-driven decisions hurt the company. Honda's market share in 1987: 4.86. Honda's market share in 1991: 6.40.
I'm not trying to deny that Honda has problems; the C/D article, which proposed itself as being about those problems, did nothing to really illuminate what those problems actually are. Namely that Honda has essentially abandoned the formula they invented for the sub $25K fun to drive FF market that is so important to enthusiasts and for their overall image.
My opinion is that Honda engineers cars better than anybody else and that engineering prowess will save them from whatever weaknesses they have in management.
I’m starting to wonder if the press has reached their breaking point with Honda. No matter how hard they try to malign their products as boring, a waste of money or behind the curve, they keep selling. Could Honda really have their finger on the pulse of what the consumers want. You know, the people who actually spend their own money on cars? For every single segment Honda competes in, I can easily think of a competitive product that I’d rather have (ok, maybe not in the minivan segment). It never used to be that way. But if you really are only as good as your last product, well…maybe Honda isn’t in such trouble after all
And this was the whole point of the article... GM cars kept selling, people were fimiliar with them exc.... but if you don't fix the current problems and just keep thinking 'oh it's selling well enough' that was part of GM's problem
GM's wasn't killed by boring or even staid products. They were killed because their products were unreliable and didn't fit in with what customers wanted. This is the important distinction here.
Honda's problems right now could be attributed to, at least according to us, a lack of technology, cheapness (which is also reflected in pricing), and "soul".
Not only that CarGuyLee, but the way they kept selling lots of cars was by offering massive discounts and turning increasingly toward fleet sales. This dramatically affected resale value and helped create/reinforce a perception of cheapness.
Certainly Honda has not followed _that_ closely in GM's footsteps. First Honda avoids fleet sales like the plague. Second, while I have been vocally opposed to Hondas current path, I do believe that people inside the company are doing it for reasons that go beyond pure bottom line. They may be completely misguided, but I don't think greed is the primary driver here.
I will say that one other interesting similarity that I see between GM and Honda is that GM's Powertrain group was always their strongest asset IMO - just like Honda.
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