The Temple of VTEC - Honda and Acura Enthusiasts Online Forums > American Honda Reports May Auto Sales > > Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !?

Potenza wrote:
The Legend wrote:

I do agree on the door panels though. I don't remember how the standard Civic doors are, but I believe the leather-clad models are well done.

Yeah... we're most likely to elbow or rest our shoulders on door panels, and that's where soft touch bits should matter.

Glove box area though needs harder & almost scratch-resistant plastic because this area gets the most scratch, usually by women's handbags.

BachelorFrog

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-02-2012 00:00

Someone broke this thread....

Frogger

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-02-2012 18:16

We love soft touch materials, and for 3 generations bought one after the other after the other of Accords and Odysseys. Each generation, the dash got worse and worse, oh sure the look is updated and new buttons for this and that, but now my elbow and leg are in hard materials, am grabbing sharp edges, can see the downgrade, it gets pretty irritating dropping $30k and $40k and watching the interior of your upgraded model degrade (you should see the button plates on the doors of my $41k Ody ?! Flat greying black plastic of the grade that is on the back of my cheap dell keyboard, all scratched up). There is a whole generation or even two on here who did not live through the painful dashboards of the 70s and late 80s (especially those of US nameplates), so maybe those folks are not as sensitive to it. Honda turned this on it's head in the 80s and 90s and is now backtracking. This will catch up, the way people prefer a nice feeling gadget in their hand over the one that performs better. You put a new (older) driver into a Honda now, and they say "what is this"? compared with the interior of the car they came out of, this did not use to be a problem. I get it, when a robot puts your plastic piece in place, you want it to be stiff so it lands right.

A77

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-02-2012 19:00

The skill is having the areas that matter to be soft touch - as outlined above, and the areas that arent being touched to match, or to contrast nicely. The problem with the dash materials on the civic is not that they are not soft touch - its that they don't even look like they are - they look hard cheap easy to scratch plastic. Some of the RDX interior is still hard plastic - but its in unimportant non-touch places and it looks soft touch.

The last gen accord was very good in this respect - you had to touch the materials to tell if they were hard or not. It all matched harmoniously. I have just as big an issue with the Civics design in that it does not flow - the dash does not wrap into the doors at all. It's too 80s. And really this is not a question of cost (surely) - just design choices. Graining to look like leather surely costs no more than making it look like "rice paper". Having a decent panel colour match shouldnt be hard either. still - the great public clearly doesnt care much. In other respects it's a very good car.

Powered by Honda

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-02-2012 19:30

soft = less chance of rattle's as car ages and plastic gets more brittle

Rgist85

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-02-2012 19:34

A77 wrote:
The skill is having the areas that matter to be soft touch - as outlined above, and the areas that arent being touched to match, or to contrast nicely. The problem with the dash materials on the civic is not that they are not soft touch - its that they don't even look like they are - they look hard cheap easy to scratch plastic. Some of the RDX interior is still hard plastic - but its in unimportant non-touch places and it looks soft touch.

The last gen accord was very good in this respect - you had to touch the materials to tell if they were hard or not. It all matched harmoniously. I have just as big an issue with the Civics design in that it does not flow - the dash does not wrap into the doors at all. It's too 80s. And really this is not a question of cost (surely) - just design choices. Graining to look like leather surely costs no more than making it look like "rice paper". Having a decent panel colour match shouldnt be hard either. still - the great public clearly doesnt care much. In other respects it's a very good car.

Exactly!

FiSH-Chan

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-02-2012 22:24

Powered by Honda wrote:
soft = less chance of rattle's as car ages and plastic gets more brittle

Disagree from experience.

mobis21

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-03-2012 01:05

The Legend wrote:
I know the civicis getting panned left and right because of lack of "soft touch" materials.

I've sat inside an Civic hybrid in the showroom (while my '03 Accord was getting fixed) and the interior is not so bad as people here pointed out IMO. The ergonomics is still honest-to-god Honda: simple, logical, high quality buttons/switches and within reach.

If there's a place where soft touch material should be applied... it should be to the side doors just like my '03 Accord.

The place where I don't approve using soft touch is the the driver and passenger dashboard. IMO Honda should continue high-grade plastic with extra surface texturing (so it doesn't look boring) and extra layer of protection against sun rays.
And to most Civic owners (anecdotal) they buy dashboard covers.

Agreed, the knee-jerk reactions of the trolls here is at least amusing. One troll just got one of those horrible Subaru. Subaru's have the worst interiors out there. They make a Mustang look like a luxury car.

owequitit

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 00:50

Frogger wrote:

We love soft touch materials, and for 3 generations bought one after the other after the other of Accords and Odysseys. Each generation, the dash got worse and worse, oh sure the look is updated and new buttons for this and that, but now my elbow and leg are in hard materials, am grabbing sharp edges, can see the downgrade, it gets pretty irritating dropping $30k and $40k and watching the interior of your upgraded model degrade (you should see the button plates on the doors of my $41k Ody ?! Flat greying black plastic of the grade that is on the back of my cheap dell keyboard, all scratched up). There is a whole generation or even two on here who did not live through the painful dashboards of the 70s and late 80s (especially those of US nameplates), so maybe those folks are not as sensitive to it. Honda turned this on it's head in the 80s and 90s and is now backtracking. This will catch up, the way people prefer a nice feeling gadget in their hand over the one that performs better. You put a new (older) driver into a Honda now, and they say "what is this"? compared with the interior of the car they came out of, this did not use to be a problem. I get it, when a robot puts your plastic piece in place, you want it to be stiff so it lands right.

I agree and it is pretty pathetic the crap people have to try and drum up in order to justify their blind brand loyalty. I was in the tail end of the kids generation that grew up with shitty domestic products, and it is a large part of the reason we left, and why I still won't go back. And we are in the same boat of having bought generation after generation and watching the quality largely go away. Ironically, it started to disappear most drastically after Honda decided everything needed to be green, recyclable and not cost a cent more than the last part that it replaced.

We have a ~24 year old 1988 Honda Accord LX that absolutely SHAMES the crap out of a 2012 Honda Civic EX-L in terms of materials quality, and the feeling of durability and quality. How F'ing sad is it when a quarter century old car with an MSRP of less than the Civic EX-L (when adjusted for inflation) puts a brand new car to shame?

All the fanboys in the previous part of the thread are left saying things like "when did soft touch materials become important?" The reality is that they were ALWAYS important, but Honda didn't always not include them. At least with the last gen Accord and Civic, the parts you typically touched were still soft touch, and Honda simply did a better job of hiding their cost cutting. Now they have cut so far that apparently they can't hide it anymore. When I touch the door panel on a 2012 Civic and it literally flexes with a touch, that is just sad. In the late 80's and early 90's their door panels were made out of a paperboard/cardboard material, and they didn't even flex that much. And don't get me started on handles, buttons and pull surfaces, where my 1990 Accord is still in almost new condition on most of the stuff.

It is just really sad. What is even more sad are the desperate attempts to justify bad behavior by ridiculously close minded individuals on this board.

330R

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 01:06

Some of the comments in this thread just further my belief that there are fewer real Honda fans of the products here anymore, and more Honda fans of the stock or of their job.

Seriously folks.. arguing against quality looking and feeling materials? Just a continuation of the sad state of affairs that has seen folks arguing against engine technology, performance, 6ATs, tech packages with 6MTs, better navigation systems, high revving engines...

owequitit

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 01:36

330R wrote:
Some of the comments in this thread just further my belief that there are fewer real Honda fans of the products here anymore, and more Honda fans of the stock or of their job.

Seriously folks.. arguing against quality looking and feeling materials? Just a continuation of the sad state of affairs that has seen folks arguing against engine technology, performance, 6ATs, tech packages with 6MTs, better navigation systems, high revving engines...

The really sad part? The Focus BLOWS the Civic away in terms of ride/handling tradeoff, materials quality, interior design etc. The only thing I could find that wasn't impressive to me was the absolutely horrendous DCT transmission. Since I would buy a manual tranny anyway, that isn't much concern. Of course, there is still the Ford reliability card in play, but that will only last for so long if they continue to improve quality. I couldn't help but notice how European the new Focus feels, and couldn't help but remember how that used to be the case for Honda.

330R

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 01:51

owequitit wrote:
The really sad part? The Focus BLOWS the Civic away in terms of ride/handling tradeoff, materials quality, interior design etc. The only thing I could find that wasn't impressive to me was the absolutely horrendous DCT transmission. Since I would buy a manual tranny anyway, that isn't much concern. Of course, there is still the Ford reliability card in play, but that will only last for so long if they continue to improve quality. I couldn't help but notice how European the new Focus feels, and couldn't help but remember how that used to be the case for Honda.

The Focus SE comes with 6MT and can be had without the MyFordTouch system. The Titanium can be absolutely loaded and is now offered with 6MT. The Focus ST is coming sometime this fall for $24.5k, of course with 6MT.

I need to try that DCT. It sounds laughably bad.

Potenza

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 03:49

owequitit wrote:
330R wrote:
Some of the comments in this thread just further my belief that there are fewer real Honda fans of the products here anymore, and more Honda fans of the stock or of their job.

Seriously folks.. arguing against quality looking and feeling materials? Just a continuation of the sad state of affairs that has seen folks arguing against engine technology, performance, 6ATs, tech packages with 6MTs, better navigation systems, high revving engines...

The really sad part? The Focus BLOWS the Civic away in terms of ride/handling tradeoff, materials quality, interior design etc. The only thing I could find that wasn't impressive to me was the absolutely horrendous DCT transmission. Since I would buy a manual tranny anyway, that isn't much concern. Of course, there is still the Ford reliability card in play, but that will only last for so long if they continue to improve quality. I couldn't help but notice how European the new Focus feels, and couldn't help but remember how that used to be the case for Honda.

So buy the Ford. Buy the Hyundai. No one's stopping you. Neal bought a Hyundai for about a week before trading it in on a Honda. (Then again I'm sure you don't care, because the Honda in question doesn't have the "correct" Honda redline.)

Every car has its pros and cons. And every person has his personal wants and needs and likes and dislikes. You people so hate the new Civic that if someone likes it, you call them idiots. It's ridiculous. 34,000 stupid f*cking idiots this month... 138,000 dumbass losers for the year. Why oh why can't everyone just have the same opinions as owequitit?

Sorry to be the idiot, man, but I'm telling you that "soft touch dash" does not make or break an entire vehicle purchase for me. Sorry again.

CarmB

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 08:25

Volkswagen/Audi makes far and away the best interiors in the business and some of the very worst cars in terms of long-term ownership. Interiors are important, certainly, but I'd rather the quality was maintained in terms of a car that isn't an unreliable mess that is a nightmare to own over the long haul.

To some degree consumers are to blame for the mess we find ourselves in these days. Pressure on price has translated into progressively worsening products that have the appearance of being great when you first acquire them but ending up being junk.

There is a difference between the appearance of quality and the true presence of it under the surface. Real quality isn't something you can determine after a test drive or even a year or two of ownership. Real quality is something you come to appreciate five, six, seven years into the ownership experience. It impacts resale value. It factors in the next time you have to buy another vehicle. It's the one thing Honda can't afford to mess up and so far it appears Honda has not messed up. So far my 2008 CSX is the best-built car I've had the pleasure of owning. The Civic line has consistently rated among the best for reliability and doesn't appear, so far, to be heading in the wrong direction in that regard. As long as that holds, people will buy Civics in large numbers.

Did Honda get it wrong with the latest Civic? In some respects, absolutely yes. Adding let's say $200 to the MSRP and putting all of that into nicer interior bits would have saved the company a lot of grief. Yet the fundamental virtues that have made the Civic a sales success seem to remain. Exterior styling also took a wrong turn but again, we're still talking reliable transportation for a good price. This is the contract, the deal that Honda has made with consumers and, really, soft-touch interior bits are beside the point.

BalIermd

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 14:22

CarmB wrote:
330R wrote:
Some of the comments in this thread just further my belief that there are fewer real Honda fans of the products here anymore, and more Honda fans of the stock or of their job.

Seriously folks.. arguing against quality looking and feeling materials? Just a continuation of the sad state of affairs that has seen folks arguing against engine technology, performance, 6ATs, tech packages with 6MTs, better navigation systems, high revving engines...

Volkswagen/Audi makes far and away the best interiors in the business and some of the very worst cars in terms of long-term ownership. Interiors are important, certainly, but I'd rather the quality was maintained in terms of a car that isn't an unreliable mess that is a nightmare to own over the long haul.

To some degree consumers are to blame for the mess we find ourselves in these days. Pressure on price has translated into progressively worsening products that have the appearance of being great when you first acquire them but ending up being junk.

There is a difference between the appearance of quality and the true presence of it under the surface. Real quality isn't something you can determine after a test drive or even a year or two of ownership. Real quality is something you come to appreciate five, six, seven years into the ownership experience. It impacts resale value. It factors in the next time you have to buy another vehicle. It's the one thing Honda can't afford to mess up and so far it appears Honda has not messed up. So far my 2008 CSX is the best-built car I've had the pleasure of owning. The Civic line has consistently rated among the best for reliability and doesn't appear, so far, to be heading in the wrong direction in that regard. As long as that holds, people will buy Civics in large numbers.

Did Honda get it wrong with the latest Civic? In some respects, absolutely yes. Adding let's say $200 to the MSRP and putting all of that into nicer interior bits would have saved the company a lot of grief. Yet the fundamental virtues that have made the Civic a sales success seem to remain. Exterior styling also took a wrong turn but again, we're still talking reliable transportation for a good price. This is the contract, the deal that Honda has made with consumers and, really, soft-touch interior bits are beside the point.

I'm saying, isn't the current Corolla also reliable transportation for a good price? Yet prior to the new Civic's debate the current Corolla got trashed by nearly everyone on TOV for a lackluster FMC while the competition got better. Now I ask, what makes the Civic anymore different from the Corolla? Why no unanimous trashing like the Corolla received? Hmmmmm.

330R

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 15:31

CarmB wrote:
Volkswagen/Audi makes far and away the best interiors in the business and some of the very worst cars in terms of long-term ownership. Interiors are important, certainly, but I'd rather the quality was maintained in terms of a car that isn't an unreliable mess that is a nightmare to own over the long haul.

To some degree consumers are to blame for the mess we find ourselves in these days. Pressure on price has translated into progressively worsening products that have the appearance of being great when you first acquire them but ending up being junk.

There is a difference between the appearance of quality and the true presence of it under the surface. Real quality isn't something you can determine after a test drive or even a year or two of ownership. Real quality is something you come to appreciate five, six, seven years into the ownership experience. It impacts resale value. It factors in the next time you have to buy another vehicle. It's the one thing Honda can't afford to mess up and so far it appears Honda has not messed up. So far my 2008 CSX is the best-built car I've had the pleasure of owning. The Civic line has consistently rated among the best for reliability and doesn't appear, so far, to be heading in the wrong direction in that regard. As long as that holds, people will buy Civics in large numbers.

Did Honda get it wrong with the latest Civic? In some respects, absolutely yes. Adding let's say $200 to the MSRP and putting all of that into nicer interior bits would have saved the company a lot of grief. Yet the fundamental virtues that have made the Civic a sales success seem to remain. Exterior styling also took a wrong turn but again, we're still talking reliable transportation for a good price. This is the contract, the deal that Honda has made with consumers and, really, soft-touch interior bits are beside the point.

We don't need to bring VW or Audi into the discussion because we can compare Honda against Honda. Yes, if given two cars, one with a nice interior and mechanical problems, and one with a cheap interior and solid mechanicals, if it was my sole transportation of course I'm going to pick the mechanically reliable one. But that is extraneous. In the context of Honda, where the reliability is all but a given, I can go all the way back to my 1994 Civic and recall materials of higher quality to the eye and the hand than the Civic from 18 years later. And yes, they indeed lasted in that same condition for a long time.

It's not a case of picking reliability or nicer materials over one another. It's about having both like it used to be. If this topic follows the same trajectory as past renditions, soon additional points will be made about inflation, materials costs, added safety features, recyclable materials, separating Honda from Acura.

All else being equal between two cars besides a small uptick in price, I'll choose soft touch, and generally better materials with better graining, color matching, etc., over the alternative.

according2kev

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 17:57

BalIermd wrote:
CarmB wrote:
330R wrote:
Some of the comments in this thread just further my belief that there are fewer real Honda fans of the products here anymore, and more Honda fans of the stock or of their job.

Seriously folks.. arguing against quality looking and feeling materials? Just a continuation of the sad state of affairs that has seen folks arguing against engine technology, performance, 6ATs, tech packages with 6MTs, better navigation systems, high revving engines...

Volkswagen/Audi makes far and away the best interiors in the business and some of the very worst cars in terms of long-term ownership. Interiors are important, certainly, but I'd rather the quality was maintained in terms of a car that isn't an unreliable mess that is a nightmare to own over the long haul.

To some degree consumers are to blame for the mess we find ourselves in these days. Pressure on price has translated into progressively worsening products that have the appearance of being great when you first acquire them but ending up being junk.

There is a difference between the appearance of quality and the true presence of it under the surface. Real quality isn't something you can determine after a test drive or even a year or two of ownership. Real quality is something you come to appreciate five, six, seven years into the ownership experience. It impacts resale value. It factors in the next time you have to buy another vehicle. It's the one thing Honda can't afford to mess up and so far it appears Honda has not messed up. So far my 2008 CSX is the best-built car I've had the pleasure of owning. The Civic line has consistently rated among the best for reliability and doesn't appear, so far, to be heading in the wrong direction in that regard. As long as that holds, people will buy Civics in large numbers.

Did Honda get it wrong with the latest Civic? In some respects, absolutely yes. Adding let's say $200 to the MSRP and putting all of that into nicer interior bits would have saved the company a lot of grief. Yet the fundamental virtues that have made the Civic a sales success seem to remain. Exterior styling also took a wrong turn but again, we're still talking reliable transportation for a good price. This is the contract, the deal that Honda has made with consumers and, really, soft-touch interior bits are beside the point.

Why no unanimous trashing like the Corolla received? Hmmmmm.

Apparently you don't visit often. The Civic has been trashed plenty on TOV, as well as other places.

Potenza

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 18:00

330R wrote:
All else being equal between two cars besides a small uptick in price, I'll choose soft touch, and generally better materials with better graining, color matching, etc., over the alternative.

Who's saying otherwise? In fact, CarmB - who you're replying to - wrote that exact idea. "Adding let's say $200 to the MSRP and putting all of that into nicer interior bits would have saved the company a lot of grief." In fact I'm not sure you even read the post you replied to but rather are arguing in your own little bubble. You're stuck on this idea that we're "arguing against quality looking and feeling materials"... which no one is doing. We're simply saying that it's not a big enough issue in our eyes to cross the Civic off of our shopping list entirely or send it immediately to the bottom. Thankfully the Civic still has many positive attributes that allow it to continue to be competitive.

As far as this conversation goes, we're not arguing in theory, because we don't buy cars in theory. The cars are as they are, and there is no "all else being equal." You can't throw reliability out the window for the sake of your argument. Reliability is a big part of Honda ownership - and something that "soft touch" can take a back seat to in my personal purchase choice.

Better materials? Sure! Better is better by definition. And Honda's coming upgrades are absolutely welcome. But for now, the lack of "soft touch" upper dash doesn't make the Honda Civic a junk vehicle compared to the Ford Focus or other competitors. Likewise a new soft touch upper dash won't make the Civic far and away the only reasonable choice in the class, will it? It's a small part of a large equation when it comes to car buying.

330R

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 18:32

Potenza wrote:
Who's saying otherwise? In fact, CarmB - who you're replying to - wrote that exact idea. "Adding let's say $200 to the MSRP and putting all of that into nicer interior bits would have saved the company a lot of grief." In fact I'm not sure you even read the post you replied to but rather are arguing in your own little bubble.

No, Potenza, I read CarmB's entire post. I didn't realize that in order to respond to someone, I had to disagree with every word they said. CarmB and I agree on that point, that we would have liked to see Honda add content/quality and bring up the price a little. You may have noticed I also agreed with CarmB's comment

Interiors are important, certainly, but I'd rather the quality was maintained in terms of a car that isn't an unreliable mess that is a nightmare to own over the long haul.

The reason I replied to him was because I felt it was important to point out that great looking, quality interiors have not only been found in VW/Audi products, but Honda products, too.

Anyway, yes, be sure I did read his post.

Potenza wrote:
You're stuck on this idea that we're "arguing against quality looking and feeling materials"... which no one is doing. We're simply saying that it's not a big enough issue in our eyes to cross the Civic off of our shopping list entirely or send it immediately to the bottom. Thankfully the Civic still has many positive attributes that allow it to continue to be competitive.

The topic of the thread was, "who cares about soft touch materials?" In your first response, after talking about your examination of the 2012 Civic, your verdict: "it's not soft-touch, but who should care?" Well, apparently some people do care. I'm not talking about the reliability of the car, its ability to get you from point A to point B. See next point..

Potenza wrote:
As far as this conversation goes, we're not arguing in theory, because we don't buy cars in theory. The cars are as they are, and there is no "all else being equal." You can't throw reliability out the window for the sake of your argument. Reliability is a big part of Honda ownership - and something that "soft touch" can take a back seat to in my personal purchase choice.

Wow, Potenza... I get to use your own words on you now...

I'm not sure you even read the post you replied to but rather are arguing in your own little bubble.

No shit reliability is a big part of Honda ownership! Do you think that might be why I specifically said, "In the context of Honda, where the reliability is all but a given"? I'm talking about where all else is equal between two Hondas, as in, a 2012 Civic with a higher quality interior with soft touch materials, and the craptastic interior it has now. Where all else is equal, besides a small uptick in price.

Potenza wrote:
Better materials? Sure! Better is better by definition. And Honda's coming upgrades are absolutely welcome. But for now, the lack of "soft touch" upper dash doesn't make the Honda Civic a junk vehicle compared to the Ford Focus or other competitors. Likewise a new soft touch upper dash won't make the Civic far and away the only reasonable choice in the class, will it? It's a small part of a large equation when it comes to car buying.

It certainly makes it a less desirable vehicle in my opinion. The interior may be a small part of a large equation to you, but I would not be happy to go from an 8th gen to a 9th gen and have to live with that interior every day while making my car payment. You're going to yell, but what about the reliability?! Yeah, what about that Honda reliability that the 8th gen just so happens to have, too? Interior quality, look, feel, perception, just overall pride and pleasure is important. I see too much discounting of that. The Civic is still a good car for many, many people. But don't act like it's the same levels of the same priorities for everyone. Someone coming from a decade old domestic might not notice a thing about it. I do. Hence this dicussion.

Potenza

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 20:49

330R wrote:
I'm talking about where all else is equal between two Hondas, as in, a 2012 Civic with a higher quality interior with soft touch materials, and the craptastic interior it has now. Where all else is equal, besides a small uptick in price.

This does not exist. I'm telling you, I refuse to argue in theory. There is no situation where two 2012 Civics exist - one with a crappy interior and one with a great interior. I have no interest in arguing this imaginary scenario with you.

If you're simply trying to say a better interior is better, I agree. Better is better. The end.

330R

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 20:57

Potenza wrote:
330R wrote:
I'm talking about where all else is equal between two Hondas, as in, a 2012 Civic with a higher quality interior with soft touch materials, and the craptastic interior it has now. Where all else is equal, besides a small uptick in price.
This does not exist. I'm telling you, I refuse to argue in theory. There is no situation where two 2012 Civics exist - one with a crappy interior and one with a great interior. I have no interest in arguing this imaginary scenario with you.

If you're simply trying to say a better interior is better, I agree. Better is better. The end.

Stop being so dense. No one is saying the two exist. I'm saying what I prefer. You understand it, and despite what you say, that means you do want to argue. The point is made. And you knew that from the beginning.

owequitit

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 23:39

CarmB wrote:
330R wrote:
Some of the comments in this thread just further my belief that there are fewer real Honda fans of the products here anymore, and more Honda fans of the stock or of their job.

Seriously folks.. arguing against quality looking and feeling materials? Just a continuation of the sad state of affairs that has seen folks arguing against engine technology, performance, 6ATs, tech packages with 6MTs, better navigation systems, high revving engines...

Volkswagen/Audi makes far and away the best interiors in the business and some of the very worst cars in terms of long-term ownership. Interiors are important, certainly, but I'd rather the quality was maintained in terms of a car that isn't an unreliable mess that is a nightmare to own over the long haul.

To some degree consumers are to blame for the mess we find ourselves in these days. Pressure on price has translated into progressively worsening products that have the appearance of being great when you first acquire them but ending up being junk.

There is a difference between the appearance of quality and the true presence of it under the surface. Real quality isn't something you can determine after a test drive or even a year or two of ownership. Real quality is something you come to appreciate five, six, seven years into the ownership experience. It impacts resale value. It factors in the next time you have to buy another vehicle. It's the one thing Honda can't afford to mess up and so far it appears Honda has not messed up. So far my 2008 CSX is the best-built car I've had the pleasure of owning. The Civic line has consistently rated among the best for reliability and doesn't appear, so far, to be heading in the wrong direction in that regard. As long as that holds, people will buy Civics in large numbers.

Did Honda get it wrong with the latest Civic? In some respects, absolutely yes. Adding let's say $200 to the MSRP and putting all of that into nicer interior bits would have saved the company a lot of grief. Yet the fundamental virtues that have made the Civic a sales success seem to remain. Exterior styling also took a wrong turn but again, we're still talking reliable transportation for a good price. This is the contract, the deal that Honda has made with consumers and, really, soft-touch interior bits are beside the point.

Honda used to do both at the same time. They were quite good at it, in fact. One of the reasons people kept coming back blindly was because they KNEW they were getting both at the same time.

And for the record, had Honda addressed both the interior and powertrain issues on the 9th gen Si, I would have put up with an MSRP of up to $26K for one. My 09 stickered at ~$24, and a proper Si powertrain that provided more than the K20Z3 and a decent interior would have sold me. I actually like the styling, features and content, but I just can't justify the interior and powertrain. People can flame me all they want. Honda lost at least one sale. The really funny part is that the people who are chastising me, didn't go out and buy one to offset my decision to not purchase, and thus they are even less relevant to Honda than I am.

I have heard just about every excuse in the book to justify it, but at the end of the day, losing a $20+K sale is all that needs to be said. The only one I can think of that has been vocally defending Honda that actually bought one is Tony, and he got a smoking deal, which brings a lot less profit than I would have.

owequitit

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-04-2012 23:40

Potenza wrote:
owequitit wrote:
330R wrote:
Some of the comments in this thread just further my belief that there are fewer real Honda fans of the products here anymore, and more Honda fans of the stock or of their job.

Seriously folks.. arguing against quality looking and feeling materials? Just a continuation of the sad state of affairs that has seen folks arguing against engine technology, performance, 6ATs, tech packages with 6MTs, better navigation systems, high revving engines...

The really sad part? The Focus BLOWS the Civic away in terms of ride/handling tradeoff, materials quality, interior design etc. The only thing I could find that wasn't impressive to me was the absolutely horrendous DCT transmission. Since I would buy a manual tranny anyway, that isn't much concern. Of course, there is still the Ford reliability card in play, but that will only last for so long if they continue to improve quality. I couldn't help but notice how European the new Focus feels, and couldn't help but remember how that used to be the case for Honda.
So buy the Ford. Buy the Hyundai. No one's stopping you. Neal bought a Hyundai for about a week before trading it in on a Honda. (Then again I'm sure you don't care, because the Honda in question doesn't have the "correct" Honda redline.)

Every car has its pros and cons. And every person has his personal wants and needs and likes and dislikes. You people so hate the new Civic that if someone likes it, you call them idiots. It's ridiculous. 34,000 stupid f*cking idiots this month... 138,000 dumbass losers for the year. Why oh why can't everyone just have the same opinions as owequitit?

Sorry to be the idiot, man, but I'm telling you that "soft touch dash" does not make or break an entire vehicle purchase for me. Sorry again.

I do not WANT to buy the Ford. I want Honda to not be so obtuse and to not put a shitty interior in the cars they build. I shouldn't have to blindly ignore major shortcomings in their product in order to justify owning it. You know, like in the timeframe where they were actually doing well on ALL fronts?

Let me make it really simple for you. Have you purchased a 2012 Civic? I specifically didn't buy a 2012 Civic, and the interior was 50% of the reason. Honda COULD have sold me a new Civic, but they failed to pull it off. Rather than buy a Focus, I elected to keep my 8th gen this time around. Next time, who knows. Either way, that is 1 less sale Honda got that they could have had with minimal effort... Add them all up, and it still doesn't pencil out in your favor.

Your "arguing in theory" point is total horseshit and you know it. I didn't have to choose between a 15 year old car and a new car. I had to choose between a 3-year old car and a new car. A 3 year old Honda of the exact same trim and model/configuration no less. It is pretty indicative just how far Honda slipped when you consider that a BRAND NEW Civic Si 4 door was nearly wholly inferior to a barely 3 year old Civic Si 4 door. Other than styling and perhaps ride quality, there is literally nothing that moves the bar forward. Other people may see it differently, but the reality is that Honda has been losing enthusiasts over their poor choices since the debut of the WRX. Discount them all you want, but there are far more WRX Honda converts than there are CR-Z or Civic Si non-Honda converts.

And to be honest, if I had a choice between that Focus and an equivalent Civic, Honda would have a much longer uphill battle than even 3 years ago, when Ford would not have been a consideration. Your pathetic attempts to justify "well then go elsewhere are just wrong." You are essentially saying that all those droves of people that have left/are leaving/will leave are unimportant. However, that drives Honda's retained customer loyalty down (another metric they have been losing ground on) which in turn drives sales down. The fact that you guys refuse to connect the dots because it destroys your world is what is really silly. I have a long list of Hondas over many years. I am not asking for the world here... I want Honda product that still looks and FEELS like a top notch quality product while actually being a top notch quality product. They have managed to do it for the last 25 years, so why stop now? I think they should customers with the likes of you too bad. Hell, you will buy one anyway, and they can keep guys like me around.

P.S. I will me more like DCR and Shawn Church the more this crap continues. If you think it will be as simple as me buying another brand and disappearing, you are sadly mistaken. I like what Honda used to stand for, and I WILL continue to be vocal about it.

P.S. Based on comments about the 2013 Civic, including statements by Honda's own CEO, you guys have already lost. If they even bring the quality up to par with the 8th gen, it will be a tremendous step forward. Either way, it is unlikely to be as bad as the 2012 was, because ANY improvement would be welcome.

NealX

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-05-2012 00:58

Please don't invoke me. You have no idea of the happenings in my household.

BalIermd

Re: Who cares about soft touch materials !? [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-05-2012 09:36

according2kev wrote:
BalIermd wrote:
CarmB wrote:
330R wrote:
Some of the comments in this thread just further my belief that there are fewer real Honda fans of the products here anymore, and more Honda fans of the stock or of their job.

Seriously folks.. arguing against quality looking and feeling materials? Just a continuation of the sad state of affairs that has seen folks arguing against engine technology, performance, 6ATs, tech packages with 6MTs, better navigation systems, high revving engines...

Volkswagen/Audi makes far and away the best interiors in the business and some of the very worst cars in terms of long-term ownership. Interiors are important, certainly, but I'd rather the quality was maintained in terms of a car that isn't an unreliable mess that is a nightmare to own over the long haul.

To some degree consumers are to blame for the mess we find ourselves in these days. Pressure on price has translated into progressively worsening products that have the appearance of being great when you first acquire them but ending up being junk.

There is a difference between the appearance of quality and the true presence of it under the surface. Real quality isn't something you can determine after a test drive or even a year or two of ownership. Real quality is something you come to appreciate five, six, seven years into the ownership experience. It impacts resale value. It factors in the next time you have to buy another vehicle. It's the one thing Honda can't afford to mess up and so far it appears Honda has not messed up. So far my 2008 CSX is the best-built car I've had the pleasure of owning. The Civic line has consistently rated among the best for reliability and doesn't appear, so far, to be heading in the wrong direction in that regard. As long as that holds, people will buy Civics in large numbers.

Did Honda get it wrong with the latest Civic? In some respects, absolutely yes. Adding let's say $200 to the MSRP and putting all of that into nicer interior bits would have saved the company a lot of grief. Yet the fundamental virtues that have made the Civic a sales success seem to remain. Exterior styling also took a wrong turn but again, we're still talking reliable transportation for a good price. This is the contract, the deal that Honda has made with consumers and, really, soft-touch interior bits are beside the point.

Why no unanimous trashing like the Corolla received? Hmmmmm.

Apparently you don't visit often. The Civic has been trashed plenty on TOV, as well as other places.

Maybe you just don't comprehend English well. In that one sentence you quoted from my post, notice the word "unanimous"?

I'm well aware that the 2012 Civic has received its fair share of criticize on here and elsewhere. But it also has a large group of defenders that are making up every excuse in the world to justify the fact that Honda dropped the ball with the new Civic (mainly the interior). If the Civic received unanimous "warranted" criticism about on this site, then we wouldn't be having this conversation because nobody would have created this thread that reeks with obvious denial.