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Harvey Jr
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Ultima wrote:
Holy fanboy attack batman! OP, you didn't know? Anyone who doesn't worship at the alter of Honda is a troll here. How dare anyone criticize sales success such as crzzz, crosstour, zdx, ridgeline, 4th gen TL, and the RL I hear is doing fantastic! The 9th gen Civic has great interior quality, so much so that we're getting an early MMC! Great job Ito! /sarcasm. Flame on!
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Actually, you have no idea.
There is no problem what so ever criticizing Honda. Even the guys who run and create content for this site, Jeff, Shawn, Neal, JMUR1, etc. are highly critical of Honda on a regular basis.
But this guy ihas2k, or what ever, beats the same drum over and over again.
Here we are discussing a spy shot of the civic, and he (again, and not unlike you) brings up the Ridgeline, CR-Z, ZDX, etc. just to stir the pot, and be a general DB.
It would be different if he were making a point relating to the Civic, but all he is doing is banging this childish "HONDA FAIL, HONDA FAIL" drum over and over. On top of that, he argues with people in the most overly defensive and immature manner possible with name calling and such.
Maybe you didn't understand all of that...
Let me be clear. The adults here like to discuss the cars that Honda makes, and how the compare to the competition. Sometimes we get heated, but even then, most of the time it's good discussion.
This guy, and defensive people like you, can't seem to discuss, you just want to make your blanket statement, get all pissy when people disagree with you. Rinse, and repeat.
So, call "Fanboy" all you want. But if you're not happy get your F-ing toys, and get out of the sand box.
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iahs2k
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P54 wrote:
I did not know Honda makes Jet ski. Or do you mean HondaJet (in the sky)? I do know they make watercraft but that is not jet ski.
Are you not proud of Honda making so many low selling niche vehicles. Owners are proud of them and really enjoy what they got. How many manufacturers caters to the special wants of so few people. Yes, they even made special low selling vehicles for a different breed of people too, with the likes of S2000 and NSX. If all Honda made was low selling niche vehicles they would be bankrupt, still they are willing to make those slow sellers for the people who likes those kind of vehicles.
So Honda wimped out with a crappy hybrid NSX? Just like Ferrari and Porsche is doing, however the Porsche is priced at some $900000, while NSX is real affordable smart sport luxury at only $100000 or in that neighborhood.
Just let the people who go for flash move to Kia and Hyundai, Honda is not into the flash making. Flash wears off.
Not everybody find 8000 rpm redline practical, most of the time people appreciate low and mid-range power. Even the enthusiasts that buy Si admit they go into VTEC occasionally, once a week, few times a month etc. Still Honda made special cars for those folks who enjoy the once in awhile trills. How many manufacturers do you find that cater to the folks with special needs. USA Today tester said ILX 2.4L was lots of fun, what more do you ask for?
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Do you REALLY judge cars by reading what USA Today has say about them? COME ON! Is USA TODAY a car enthusiast or auto industry go to publication. USA TODAY = NEW LIGHT crap. The only USA Today I ever read is the freebie ones they throw in front of the hotel room door in the morning. It takes me all of 10 minutes to read the thing. I wouldn't pay much attention to what the USA Today has to say about enthusiast automobiles. The ILX will FLOP. Watch. I've been a Honda loyalist since '97 and I have absolutely ZERO interest in the ILX.
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P54
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iahs2k wrote:
P54 wrote:
I did not know Honda makes Jet ski. Or do you mean HondaJet (in the sky)? I do know they make watercraft but that is not jet ski.
Are you not proud of Honda making so many low selling niche vehicles. Owners are proud of them and really enjoy what they got. How many manufacturers caters to the special wants of so few people. Yes, they even made special low selling vehicles for a different breed of people too, with the likes of S2000 and NSX. If all Honda made was low selling niche vehicles they would be bankrupt, still they are willing to make those slow sellers for the people who likes those kind of vehicles.
So Honda wimped out with a crappy hybrid NSX? Just like Ferrari and Porsche is doing, however the Porsche is priced at some $900000, while NSX is real affordable smart sport luxury at only $100000 or in that neighborhood.
Just let the people who go for flash move to Kia and Hyundai, Honda is not into the flash making. Flash wears off.
Not everybody find 8000 rpm redline practical, most of the time people appreciate low and mid-range power. Even the enthusiasts that buy Si admit they go into VTEC occasionally, once a week, few times a month etc. Still Honda made special cars for those folks who enjoy the once in awhile trills. How many manufacturers do you find that cater to the folks with special needs. USA Today tester said ILX 2.4L was lots of fun, what more do you ask for?
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Do you REALLY judge cars by reading what USA Today has say about them? COME ON! Is USA TODAY a car enthusiast or auto industry go to publication. USA TODAY = NEW LIGHT crap. The only USA Today I ever read is the freebie ones they throw in front of the hotel room door in the morning. It takes me all of 10 minutes to read the thing. I wouldn't pay much attention to what the USA Today has to say about enthusiast automobiles. The ILX will FLOP. Watch. I've been a Honda loyalist since '97 and I have absolutely ZERO interest in the ILX.
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No, I do not judge cars by what USA today says, however their opinion is better than yours, they have tested it, have you? Besides they do not claim to be Honda loyalist so their opinion should be more neutral than yours.
Just because you do not like one model does not mean it is bad in itself or for other people. Honda would go out of business if they only make cars to your liking. So you are saying the ILX is an enthusiast car? What kind of enthusiast is it made for?
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P54
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VTECyo! wrote:
Honda does, in fact, make a jet ski. It's called the AquaTrax (http://powersports.honda.com/water.aspx). I've driven one, and I like it quite a bit. More than my Sea-Doo GTX, in fact.
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No, Honda do not make Jet Ski. Jet Ski is a Kawasaki brand so only Kawasaki make Jet Ski. Honda also make PWC (Personal Watercraft) and their model is called AquaTrax.
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integrator
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In FL, people refer to any personal watercraft as a 'jet ski'. Any carbonated beverage is a 'Coke'. And any tissue is called a 'Kleenex'. So making an issue of the brand name just shows what an a-hole u are.
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330R
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integrator wrote:
In FL, people refer to any personal watercraft as a 'jet ski'. Any carbonated beverage is a 'Coke'. And any tissue is called a 'Kleenex'. So making an issue of the brand name just shows what an a-hole u are.
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Yes, a pedantic a-hole. Exactly. You've got a TOV member, mtxjohn, a multi-Honda owner; proud, loyal owner, who is unhappy, frustrated like many of us at what Honda is doing these days. In his words, he is a lifelong die hard Honda fan and wants to see Honda crush the competition. I believe him. Then you've got this sniveling, corporate nut-coddling jackwagon who NEVER talks about the Honda(s) he/she does or doesn't own, just froths at the mouth this diatribe of diarrhea, a self-prescribed and administered overdose of mental masturbation about how f'ing awesomesause everything Honda does is.
I ask you.. which one is closer to reality? I know which one sets off my bullshit detector.
/vent
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according2kev
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mtxjohn wrote:
The CRZ is such a joke I cant imagine who could defend it-no power, no space, crappy MPG. Compare to my 10 year old RSX-S getting up to 40MPG, seats 4, with a giant hatchback and also 200HP.
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Of course the epa numbers aren't impressive, especially compared to your real world numbers. If you're getting 40mpg in your RSX, what do you think you would get (real world) in a car that's lighter, more aerodynamic, and has less power?
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Grace141
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soniccar wrote:
The S2000 was obviously the best car ever made? In fact, every Honda F1 car was just an S2000 with the fenders removed and a picture of google earth. There was so much technology in the car, honda stopped making it for fear of terrorists groups racing in at 9k rpms and activating the flux capacitor. Honda has never made a decent car since 1985.
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Oh, gosh, that just made me think of the 1st gen Prelude. Bask, friends, in the glory of 75 horses and 96 torques! Which was pretty good for 1978, truth be told.
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Colin
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according2kev wrote:
mtxjohn wrote:
The CRZ is such a joke I cant imagine who could defend it-no power, no space, crappy MPG. Compare to my 10 year old RSX-S getting up to 40MPG, seats 4, with a giant hatchback and also 200HP.
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Of course the epa numbers aren't impressive, especially compared to your real world numbers. If you're getting 40mpg in your RSX, what do you think you would get (real world) in a car that's lighter, more aerodynamic, and has less power?
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Wow, he must have a commute that is downhill BOTH ways! I have a RSX w/ 5MT and can get it up to 30 MPG. The CR-Z w/ 6MT in the family doing the same distance commute BUT with morning traffic is getting 40 MPG. Not saying you're lying mtxjohn, but in my experience with BOTH cars with the same ~40 mile round trip commute does not jibe with your assertion.
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ClementZ
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The Optima is gorgeous. Yes. It gets good mileage. Yes. But those are the only two things it has going for it. The Turbo 4 and the V6 Accord both hit 60mph in 6.1 seconds, despite the Turbo 4's increase in power, extra gear, and lighter weight. It also isn't any more enjoyable to drive, despite the lighter weight, due to dead steering feel. Your RSX-S doesn't get 40MPG; that is a lie. The only cars now from any manufacturer that get 40MPG are hybrids and diesels. The CR-Z isn't about power (it's a hybrid), or space. It's about handling; and most reviewers agree, it's quite good. But I agree with you; for a hybrid, the mileage is bad. Crosstour is useless, I agree.
But seriously though, stop being butthurt about the S2K and the NSX. Both were axed because they didn't sell. The S2K especially, was an anniversary edition vehicle, never intended to last as long as it did.
Crappy NSX Hybrid? Have you even driven the thing yet bro? It should make at least 500HP, and more torque than the LF-A, despite having a smaller displacement. And better mileage. And be cheaper. And the list goes on. But I digress. Because HURR DURR NO V10 10K RPM WITH 2 FTLBS OF TORQUE AND 600HP @ 9800 RPM.
Pathetic 7000 RPM? First of all, most drivers of any car never even push their cars that hard. Second of all, your RSX-S has a redline of 7900 RPM, which honestly isn't much more. And your TL redlines at about 6500 RPM, if I remember correctly, which is ironically worse.
Performance suspension in an Accord? BS. I know you can't get that as a factory option.
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Colin
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ClementZ wrote:
Your RSX-S doesn't get 40MPG; that is a lie.
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Ha Ha, I didn't want to say that, maybe he's not too good at math?
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Jovian8
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Perhaps that is 40-mpg per IMPERIAL gallon.... which is realistic.
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Great_Tubimi
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P54 wrote:
I did not know Honda makes Jet ski. Or do you mean HondaJet (in the sky)? I do know they make watercraft but that is not jet ski.
Are you not proud of Honda making so many low selling niche vehicles. Owners are proud of them and really enjoy what they got. How many manufacturers caters to the special wants of so few people. Yes, they even made special low selling vehicles for a different breed of people too, with the likes of S2000 and NSX. If all Honda made was low selling niche vehicles they would be bankrupt, still they are willing to make those slow sellers for the people who likes those kind of vehicles.
So Honda wimped out with a crappy hybrid NSX? Just like Ferrari and Porsche is doing, however the Porsche is priced at some $900000, while NSX is real affordable smart sport luxury at only $100000 or in that neighborhood.
Just let the people who go for flash move to Kia and Hyundai, Honda is not into the flash making. Flash wears off.
Not everybody find 8000 rpm redline practical, most of the time people appreciate low and mid-range power. Even the enthusiasts that buy Si admit they go into VTEC occasionally, once a week, few times a month etc. Still Honda made special cars for those folks who enjoy the once in awhile trills. How many manufacturers do you find that cater to the folks with special needs. USA Today tester said ILX 2.4L was lots of fun, what more do you ask for?
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How much do you get paid to write this trash? Does Honda have any flaws in your eyes or should everyone be "proud" of every little single thing they've done?
The only reason the S2000 was a "low-selling niche vehicle" is because Honda refused to provide any significant updates over it's DECADE-long run.
And then my favorite part is that you try to clown the Porshe Hybrid while calling the NSX "real affordable smart sport luxury." First of all, how much do you make? 100k is affordable and "smart" now? Secondly, you failed to mention that the Porshe Hybrid is supposed to deliver 770 HP and 78 MPG. This isn't silicon valley where technological advancement in exponential and drives costs down. In mechanical applications more play= more pay, period.
You say flash wears off, while praising a flashy Civic si with no LSD. Even within the ILX tier, there are no differences in suspension tuning. Honda should be throwing their remaining enthusiasts a bone. And trust me, I could ask for a lot more than some USA Today tester finding the 2.4 ILX "fun." Especially when there's no possible way it's more "fun" than the Civic it was based off of.
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iahs2k
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P54 wrote:
iahs2k wrote:
P54 wrote:
I did not know Honda makes Jet ski. Or do you mean HondaJet (in the sky)? I do know they make watercraft but that is not jet ski.
Are you not proud of Honda making so many low selling niche vehicles. Owners are proud of them and really enjoy what they got. How many manufacturers caters to the special wants of so few people. Yes, they even made special low selling vehicles for a different breed of people too, with the likes of S2000 and NSX. If all Honda made was low selling niche vehicles they would be bankrupt, still they are willing to make those slow sellers for the people who likes those kind of vehicles.
So Honda wimped out with a crappy hybrid NSX? Just like Ferrari and Porsche is doing, however the Porsche is priced at some $900000, while NSX is real affordable smart sport luxury at only $100000 or in that neighborhood.
Just let the people who go for flash move to Kia and Hyundai, Honda is not into the flash making. Flash wears off.
Not everybody find 8000 rpm redline practical, most of the time people appreciate low and mid-range power. Even the enthusiasts that buy Si admit they go into VTEC occasionally, once a week, few times a month etc. Still Honda made special cars for those folks who enjoy the once in awhile trills. How many manufacturers do you find that cater to the folks with special needs. USA Today tester said ILX 2.4L was lots of fun, what more do you ask for?
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Do you REALLY judge cars by reading what USA Today has say about them? COME ON! Is USA TODAY a car enthusiast or auto industry go to publication. USA TODAY = NEW LIGHT crap. The only USA Today I ever read is the freebie ones they throw in front of the hotel room door in the morning. It takes me all of 10 minutes to read the thing. I wouldn't pay much attention to what the USA Today has to say about enthusiast automobiles. The ILX will FLOP. Watch. I've been a Honda loyalist since '97 and I have absolutely ZERO interest in the ILX.
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No, I do not judge cars by what USA today says, however their opinion is better than yours, they have tested it, have you? Besides they do not claim to be Honda loyalist so their opinion should be more neutral than yours.
Just because you do not like one model does not mean it is bad in itself or for other people. Honda would go out of business if they only make cars to your liking. So you are saying the ILX is an enthusiast car? What kind of enthusiast is it made for?
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Are you Honda sales or corporate? You pump the brand way too hard. Honda is ship without a rudder .... actually I take that back...It's a ship with a rudder that's being driven right into a huge icebergs by an idiot named Ito. CR-Zzzz...FAIL, Crosstour....FAIL, ZDX..... FAIL, ILX....SOON to FAIL, Element....FAIL, Ridgeline....FAIL. Well you get the point. Enthusiasts made the brand and Honda's lack of product marketed to enthusiast will slowly kill the brand. I have only owned Hondas since '97. My next car will NOT be a Honda. That simple single fact does not bode well for the brand. I am not the only one.
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Chocs
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iahs2k wrote:
Well you get the point.
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You made your point very clear.
iahs2k wrote:
Honda is really screwing themselves. They are becoming less and less relevant. Nothing they make interests me at all. That's the first time I can say that since '97. Ito is destroying the brand with bland beige boring vehicles. So many other choices now. ILX will fail big time and join the long list....crosstour, ridgeline, element, CR-Zzzz, they all just plain suck. Either they are butt ugly or lack power. Honda is in trouble
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iahs2k wrote:
There are many Honda corporate shills and sales pumpers here. The Civic is boring. The ILX is the real lame dog though. Watch how the ILX flops coming up soon. At least the civic is what it is....the ILX is a poser. 150HP GMAFB. No high power version. Honda = boring cars. To turn the company around they need to first get rid of Ito. Sayonara Ito. Then get rid of the sad excuse for cars like the Crosstour.....CR-Zzzz. CR-Zzz could be salvaged by gutting the hybrid crap and sticking in the Civic Si engine or one of the new upcoming ED engines. Add high perf engine options throughout the range. Turbos are OK to get immediate HP gains until the new NA ED engines arrive. Styling needs to improve. Playing it safe is not going to sell cars these days. You need to get noticed ...there are too many great cars out there. Hondas look BORING BLAND AND BEIGE.
Ito is an idiot and needs to go.
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iahs2k wrote:
Are you Honda sales or corporate? You pump the brand way too hard. Honda is ship without a rudder .... actually I take that back...It's a ship with a rudder that's being driven right into a huge icebergs by an idiot named Ito. CR-Zzzz...FAIL, Crosstour....FAIL, ZDX..... FAIL, ILX....SOON to FAIL, Element....FAIL, Ridgeline....FAIL. Well you get the point. Enthusiasts made the brand and Honda's lack of product marketed to enthusiast will slowly kill the brand. I have only owned Hondas since '97. My next car will NOT be a Honda. That simple single fact does not bode well for the brand. I am not the only one.
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Polly want a cracker?
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montechester
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iahs2k wrote:
I have only owned Hondas since '97. My next car will NOT be a Honda. That simple single fact does not bode well for the brand. I am not the only one.
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Then I'll ask again, why are you wasting your, and others, time on here?
And who called the ILX an "Enthusiast" car? I missed that in the brochure. And where did the couple people above get the idea the 2.4L 6MT was canceled?
I really enjoy the folks above that trash the ILX on how poorly it drives and the suspension setup without having DRIVEN ONE YET! I really do wish people would reserve judgement on things that require personal experience to truly have an opinion that is worth the time it takes to read it. The Internet has helped create an army of "experts" that judge everything via spec sheet alone, and when a vehicle doesn't have X, Y, or Z feature, dimension, or material, it is summarily judged inferior. Drive the damn thing, THEN your opinion MIGHT have some validity, otherwise, your just another idiot with a keyboard and some free time on your hands.
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superchg2
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iahs2k wrote:
My next car will NOT be a Honda.
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Having said that iahs2k, I guess you'll be leaving us now?
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Chocs
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montechester wrote:
And where did the couple people above get the idea the 2.4L 6MT was canceled?
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We don't really mean it. Just being snarky in response to one of the comments.
As the thread title says, Honda may becoming less relevant... to some people... But this topic is certainly not any more relevant to the '13 Civic.
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iahs2k
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superchg2a$$Snifr wrote:
iahs2k wrote:
My next car will NOT be a Honda.
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Having said that iahs2k, I guess you'll be leaving us now?
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Er...NO ...If enough customers express their displeasure with the direction of Honda producing bland, boring and underpowered cars it might result in Ito getting booted out the door and positive changes being made. If this happens sales at Honda increase as the brands buzz improves and you might be able to afford to move out of your Moms basement and get a place of your own.
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iahs2k
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montechester wrote:
iahs2k wrote:
I have only owned Hondas since '97. My next car will NOT be a Honda. That simple single fact does not bode well for the brand. I am not the only one.
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I really enjoy the folks above that trash the ILX on how poorly it drives and the suspension setup without having DRIVEN ONE YET!
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With the same HP as a Civic Si and no LSD, I don't need to drive it to say it lacks power and enthusiast content. The ILX will fail as an over priced poser that offers nothing for enthusiasts.
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TheGandalf
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STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS!
Even though some of his comments might hit the nail in the head+ his attitude and confrontational tone bring their usefullness to nil!
iahs2k wrote:
superchg2a$$Snifr wrote:
iahs2k wrote:
My next car will NOT be a Honda.
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Having said that iahs2k, I guess you'll be leaving us now?
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Er...NO ...If enough customers express their displeasure with the direction of Honda producing bland, boring and underpowered cars it might result in Ito getting booted out the door and positive changes being made. If this happens sales at Honda increase as the brands buzz improves and you might be able to afford to move out of your Moms basement and get a place of your own.
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owequitit
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P54 wrote:
I did not know Honda makes Jet ski. Or do you mean HondaJet (in the sky)? I do know they make watercraft but that is not jet ski.
Are you not proud of Honda making so many low selling niche vehicles. Owners are proud of them and really enjoy what they got. How many manufacturers caters to the special wants of so few people. Yes, they even made special low selling vehicles for a different breed of people too, with the likes of S2000 and NSX. If all Honda made was low selling niche vehicles they would be bankrupt, still they are willing to make those slow sellers for the people who likes those kind of vehicles.
So Honda wimped out with a crappy hybrid NSX? Just like Ferrari and Porsche is doing, however the Porsche is priced at some $900000, while NSX is real affordable smart sport luxury at only $100000 or in that neighborhood.
Just let the people who go for flash move to Kia and Hyundai, Honda is not into the flash making. Flash wears off.
Not everybody find 8000 rpm redline practical, most of the time people appreciate low and mid-range power. Even the enthusiasts that buy Si admit they go into VTEC occasionally, once a week, few times a month etc. Still Honda made special cars for those folks who enjoy the once in awhile trills. How many manufacturers do you find that cater to the folks with special needs. USA Today tester said ILX 2.4L was lots of fun, what more do you ask for?
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So wait, let me get this straight...
It is OK for Honda to make low selling niche vehicles as long as they are crappy hybrids (crappy performance AND MPG relative to their peers), but it is NOT OK for them to make niche enthusiast vehicles because they would go bankrupt? Do you even read the drivel coming out of your mouth? Niche vehicles that don't make money still don't make money, no matter what niche they are for... And sorry, but no they ARE NOT willing to make those vehicles. Where are the enthusiast niche vehicles if they are willing to make them? Sorry, but both the Si and S2K combined outsold ALL of Honda's hybrids combined...
Also, you CLEARLY have not driven one of Honda's recent 8,000 RPM vehicles, because they delivered their torque and horsepower in the low, mid and top end range pretty much equally. To pretend they only made any power up top has already been proven to you time and again, so now it is just denial.
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owequitit
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ClementZ wrote:
The Optima is gorgeous. Yes. It gets good mileage. Yes. But those are the only two things it has going for it. The Turbo 4 and the V6 Accord both hit 60mph in 6.1 seconds, despite the Turbo 4's increase in power, extra gear, and lighter weight. It also isn't any more enjoyable to drive, despite the lighter weight, due to dead steering feel. Your RSX-S doesn't get 40MPG; that is a lie. The only cars now from any manufacturer that get 40MPG are hybrids and diesels. The CR-Z isn't about power (it's a hybrid), or space. It's about handling; and most reviewers agree, it's quite good. But I agree with you; for a hybrid, the mileage is bad. Crosstour is useless, I agree.
But seriously though, stop being butthurt about the S2K and the NSX. Both were axed because they didn't sell. The S2K especially, was an anniversary edition vehicle, never intended to last as long as it did.
Crappy NSX Hybrid? Have you even driven the thing yet bro? It should make at least 500HP, and more torque than the LF-A, despite having a smaller displacement. And better mileage. And be cheaper. And the list goes on. But I digress. Because HURR DURR NO V10 10K RPM WITH 2 FTLBS OF TORQUE AND 600HP @ 9800 RPM.
Pathetic 7000 RPM? First of all, most drivers of any car never even push their cars that hard. Second of all, your RSX-S has a redline of 7900 RPM, which honestly isn't much more. And your TL redlines at about 6500 RPM, if I remember correctly, which is ironically worse.
Performance suspension in an Accord? BS. I know you can't get that as a factory option.
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The Accord sedan does NOT run 0-60 in 6.1 seconds. That is the 6 speed coupe, which has a completely different powertrain. The sedan V6 is much more lethargic and only does it in about 7 seconds. So yes, the turbo 4 in the Optima will out run it in 0-60 by quite a wide margin, but is also faster through the 1/4 mile by nearly .5 seconds, and is a lot more flexible to boot. Hopefully, Honda's new implementation of VCM and a 6AT will take care of that. Either way, I agree that the V6 is a smoother and more refined drive.
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owequitit
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according2kev wrote:
mtxjohn wrote:
The CRZ is such a joke I cant imagine who could defend it-no power, no space, crappy MPG. Compare to my 10 year old RSX-S getting up to 40MPG, seats 4, with a giant hatchback and also 200HP.
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Of course the epa numbers aren't impressive, especially compared to your real world numbers. If you're getting 40mpg in your RSX, what do you think you would get (real world) in a car that's lighter, more aerodynamic, and has less power?
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I don't buy 40MPG from an RSX-S, just to be clear. But I spent some time with a CR-Z 6MT when my Si lease was coming up. No matter what I did, I couldn't get the thing above 37MPG under the same conditions my Si will average ~30MPG and sometimes as high as 31-32MPG. Honestly, I would have saved a bit of fuel, and been able to buy regular unleaded, but IMO, the relatively marginal MPG increase wasn't worth the decrease in performance. I do wish Honda had been putting interiors that nice in the new Civic though, as that would address a lot of the complaining on the regular models (LX,EX, EX-L and Hybrid). I still think the powertrain is the biggest issue on the Si, and the interior is more secondary, although it certainly doesn't help either.
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according2kev
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owequitit wrote:
according2kev wrote:
mtxjohn wrote:
The CRZ is such a joke I cant imagine who could defend it-no power, no space, crappy MPG. Compare to my 10 year old RSX-S getting up to 40MPG, seats 4, with a giant hatchback and also 200HP.
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Of course the epa numbers aren't impressive, especially compared to your real world numbers. If you're getting 40mpg in your RSX, what do you think you would get (real world) in a car that's lighter, more aerodynamic, and has less power?
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I don't buy 40MPG from an RSX-S, just to be clear. But I spent some time with a CR-Z 6MT when my Si lease was coming up. No matter what I did, I couldn't get the thing above 37MPG under the same conditions my Si will average ~30MPG and sometimes as high as 31-32MPG. Honestly, I would have saved a bit of fuel, and been able to buy regular unleaded, but IMO, the relatively marginal MPG increase wasn't worth the decrease in performance. I do wish Honda had been putting interiors that nice in the new Civic though, as that would address a lot of the complaining on the regular models (LX,EX, EX-L and Hybrid). I still think the powertrain is the biggest issue on the Si, and the interior is more secondary, although it certainly doesn't help either.
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I thought that sounded bogus as well but gave him the benefit of the doubt. As for your time in the CR-Z, was it a new or preowned model? Was your time in it a mix of city/hwy? I thought this car would easily get 40 or higher on the highway but your 37 is still better than the the EPA city and combined combined mileage and matches the hwy estimate.
It's been a while since I sat in the CR-Z but I can recall the interior materials having a high quality look to them. The black chrome finish (or whatever it's called) on the door pulls in particular stood out to me and I wouldn't mind if Honda used it in some of their other vehicles.
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P54
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owequitit wrote:
P54 wrote:
I did not know Honda makes Jet ski. Or do you mean HondaJet (in the sky)? I do know they make watercraft but that is not jet ski.
Are you not proud of Honda making so many low selling niche vehicles. Owners are proud of them and really enjoy what they got. How many manufacturers caters to the special wants of so few people. Yes, they even made special low selling vehicles for a different breed of people too, with the likes of S2000 and NSX. If all Honda made was low selling niche vehicles they would be bankrupt, still they are willing to make those slow sellers for the people who likes those kind of vehicles.
So Honda wimped out with a crappy hybrid NSX? Just like Ferrari and Porsche is doing, however the Porsche is priced at some $900000, while NSX is real affordable smart sport luxury at only $100000 or in that neighborhood.
Just let the people who go for flash move to Kia and Hyundai, Honda is not into the flash making. Flash wears off.
Not everybody find 8000 rpm redline practical, most of the time people appreciate low and mid-range power. Even the enthusiasts that buy Si admit they go into VTEC occasionally, once a week, few times a month etc. Still Honda made special cars for those folks who enjoy the once in awhile trills. How many manufacturers do you find that cater to the folks with special needs. USA Today tester said ILX 2.4L was lots of fun, what more do you ask for?
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So wait, let me get this straight...
It is OK for Honda to make low selling niche vehicles as long as they are crappy hybrids (crappy performance AND MPG relative to their peers), but it is NOT OK for them to make niche enthusiast vehicles because they would go bankrupt? Do you even read the drivel coming out of your mouth? Niche vehicles that don't make money still don't make money, no matter what niche they are for... And sorry, but no they ARE NOT willing to make those vehicles. Where are the enthusiast niche vehicles if they are willing to make them? Sorry, but both the Si and S2K combined outsold ALL of Honda's hybrids combined...
Also, you CLEARLY have not driven one of Honda's recent 8,000 RPM vehicles, because they delivered their torque and horsepower in the low, mid and top end range pretty much equally. To pretend they only made any power up top has already been proven to you time and again, so now it is just denial.
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Maybe you failed to see my post as an answer to the post from "iahs2k" where he do some serious name-calling in regard to ITO and also blame him for vehicles that sell in low numbers but were developed before his time as President.
Now, what exactly is an enthusiast? Could it not be that buyers of CR-Z and other models "iahs2k" mentioned are enthusiasts too, just with different interests. I guess you also failed to see my point was to show that Honda make many slow selling models, (and as they are made upon existing platforms of other models it keeps cost down), however if all they made was slow seller enthusiast cars they would go bankrupt. Still Honda make those slow seller enthusiast cars, maybe not your kind, however for other people with other tastes and priorities.
S2000 was an anniversary model, not intended to last 10 years. New models will come but a different kind, to deal with the time we now live in. If your definition of enthusiast car only means sports car with high revving engine then I understand you, however an enthusiast car is not limited to that.
en·thu·si·ast (n-thz-st)
n.
1. One who is filled with enthusiasm; one who is ardently absorbed in an interest or pursuit: a baseball enthusiast.
2. A zealot; a fanatic.
[Greek enthousiasts, possessed person, from enthousiazein, to be inspired; see enthusiasm.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
enthusiast [ɪnˈθjuːzɪˌæst]
n
1. a person filled with or motivated by enthusiasm; fanatic
2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) Archaic a religious visionary, esp one whose zeal for religion is extravagant or unbalanced
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Noun 1. enthusiast - an ardent and enthusiastic supporter of some person or activity
partizan, partisan
addict, freak, junkie, junky, nut - someone who is so ardently devoted to something that it resembles an addiction; "a golf addict"; "a car nut"; "a bodybuilding freak"; "a news junkie"
backslapper - someone who demonstrates enthusiastic or excessive cordiality
balletomane - a ballet enthusiast
fanatic, fiend - a person motivated by irrational enthusiasm (as for a cause); "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"--Winston Churchill
gadgeteer - a person who delights in designing or building or using gadgets
shutterbug - a photography enthusiast
rooter, sports fan, fan - an enthusiastic devotee of sports
admirer, booster, protagonist, supporter, champion, friend - a person who backs a politician or a team etc.; "all their supporters came out for the game"; "they are friends of the library"
2. enthusiast - a person having a strong liking for something
fancier
adorer, admirer - someone who admires a young woman; "she had many admirers"
animal fancier - a person who breeds animals
bird fancier - a person with a strong interest in birds
maniac - a person who has an obsession with or excessive enthusiasm for something
technophile - a person who is enthusiastic about new technology |
Now, where do you find yourself? Can you see that an owner of CR-Z, ZDX, Crosstour, Ridgeline etc. also can be called an enthusiast, not only the people that are enthusiastic about a particular engine.
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330R
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P54, how about actually addressing owequitit's post this time?
owequitit wrote:
So wait, let me get this straight...
It is OK for Honda to make low selling niche vehicles as long as they are crappy hybrids (crappy performance AND MPG relative to their peers), but it is NOT OK for them to make niche enthusiast vehicles because they would go bankrupt? Do you even read the drivel coming out of your mouth? Niche vehicles that don't make money still don't make money, no matter what niche they are for... And sorry, but no they ARE NOT willing to make those vehicles. Where are the enthusiast niche vehicles if they are willing to make them? Sorry, but both the Si and S2K combined outsold ALL of Honda's hybrids combined... |
You stated earlier in this thread:
| P54 wrote:For a company to survive as an independent they need to sell a certain amount of cars to make things go around. That sale come from mainstream cars. |
Followed by:
| P54 wrote:All those "niche" vehicles is based on existing cars, not too expensive to produce and a learning curve for models to come. |
Then:
| P54 wrote:Are you not proud of Honda making so many low selling niche vehicles. Owners are proud of them and really enjoy what they got. How many manufacturers caters to the special wants of so few people. Yes, they even made special low selling vehicles for a different breed of people too, with the likes of S2000 and NSX. If all Honda made was low selling niche vehicles they would be bankrupt, still they are willing to make those slow sellers for the people who likes those kind of vehicles. |
You're defending the "low selling niche vehicles", claiming that they're based on existing, successful mainstream vehicles. The ones they're making now, it's okay if they're low selling, because it doesn't cost that much to make them since they're based on exisiting architecture produced in greater volumes. Let's see, that would be like... the Prelude, the CR-X, and the Integra (not low selling but specifically the hotter models), to name a few. In defending the current niche vehicles, none of which are enthusiast vehicles (and even a double-talking spin doctor like yourself can pick up on the context in which 'enthusiast' is being used), you're saying niche is fine, acceptable. But when someone asks about Honda making enthusiast niche vehicles, you change your tune to, "oh no, they can't cuz they would go bankrupt!"
How about shaking off the flotsam like the Insight and ZDX, and bringing something actually desirable to more people than you can fit in an average house?
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330R
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P54 wrote:
S2000 was an anniversary model, not intended to last 10 years. |
I wonder why it lasted that long then. Do you have an opinion?
P54 wrote:
New models will come but a different kind, to deal with the time we now live in. |
Yeah? What kind of a "different kind", and why? What time do we live in? Some recent quotes of yours...
P54 wrote:
Just because competition is making higher revving engines 20 years after Honda does not mean Honda has lost its ability in the engine department. They might rather have shifted focus for the time being, but are still committed to the enthusiast with new vehicles to come. |
Gee, just a few days ago you understood damn well what "enthusiast" meant in the parlance of TOV. Did you get dumber since then? Anyway..
P54 wrote:
What we see now is a transition period while we wait on the new vehicles to come out. You will be amazed. |
A matter of days ago you told us we'll be amazed at the new vehicles to come out. But tonight it's the more somber, "New models will come but a different kind, to deal with the time we now live in". That doesn't sound so amazing to me! What is going to amaze us? Come on, you're in the know, so enlightened since you see beyond the neanderthal enthusiast *grunt* *8000* *grunt* on TOV.
P54 wrote:
Who told you that the ED engines presented is all that Honda has for future. |
Spill it, then. Amaze us.
P54 wrote:
Now, did Honda tell you about new enthusiast cars? With "Whiiiiner" engines for enthusiasts. You have seen nothing yet, not just drive-train wise but the whole vehicle. You said yourself "Open your eyes." Open them wider and like I said you will be amazed at what is coming. The coming "earth quake" from Honda. With a "tsunami" of enthusiasts following. |
That correlates really well with, again:
P54 wrote:
New models will come but a different kind, to deal with the time we now live in. |
Do you still not understand why I criticize you for your propaganda-filled posts? Why don't you actually respond to people in your own words, and relate to these Honda fans with your own experiences? You don't seem to be on the same planet sometimes.
P54 wrote:
If your definition of enthusiast car only means sports car with high revving engine then I understand you, however an enthusiast car is not limited to that. |
And what do you want? For the definition of an enthusiast car to mean everything EXCEPT a sports car with a high revving engine? Is that what you're getting at? Is that what your employer sends you here for? To try and wean those hard-headed pesky Honda-hating Honda lovers off those marvelous engines that they can't be bothered to actually raise a f'ing finger and spend a f'ing dollar to make anymore?
Why won't those diehard Honda enthusiasts simply assimilate? Why? Because Honda's miserable green car way is nothing but a sugar pill when you were raised on the crack pipe of VTEC, associate P54.
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owequitit
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according2kev wrote:
owequitit wrote:
according2kev wrote:
mtxjohn wrote:
The CRZ is such a joke I cant imagine who could defend it-no power, no space, crappy MPG. Compare to my 10 year old RSX-S getting up to 40MPG, seats 4, with a giant hatchback and also 200HP.
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Of course the epa numbers aren't impressive, especially compared to your real world numbers. If you're getting 40mpg in your RSX, what do you think you would get (real world) in a car that's lighter, more aerodynamic, and has less power?
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I don't buy 40MPG from an RSX-S, just to be clear. But I spent some time with a CR-Z 6MT when my Si lease was coming up. No matter what I did, I couldn't get the thing above 37MPG under the same conditions my Si will average ~30MPG and sometimes as high as 31-32MPG. Honestly, I would have saved a bit of fuel, and been able to buy regular unleaded, but IMO, the relatively marginal MPG increase wasn't worth the decrease in performance. I do wish Honda had been putting interiors that nice in the new Civic though, as that would address a lot of the complaining on the regular models (LX,EX, EX-L and Hybrid). I still think the powertrain is the biggest issue on the Si, and the interior is more secondary, although it certainly doesn't help either.
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I thought that sounded bogus as well but gave him the benefit of the doubt. As for your time in the CR-Z, was it a new or preowned model? Was your time in it a mix of city/hwy? I thought this car would easily get 40 or higher on the highway but your 37 is still better than the the EPA city and combined combined mileage and matches the hwy estimate.
It's been a while since I sat in the CR-Z but I can recall the interior materials having a high quality look to them. The black chrome finish (or whatever it's called) on the door pulls in particular stood out to me and I wouldn't mind if Honda used it in some of their other vehicles.
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It was mostly City, which is where my Si returns about 30. I really could care less how it lines up with the sticker value, because real world MPG wise, it isn't better enough than the real world MPG of my Si to warrant the loss in performance.
The particular one I drove was a slightly used one with about 14K miles on it, so it was well past its break in. It was the first 6MT I was able to find locally, and had I traded it would have been a new one. Either way, 37MPG isn't so impressive for such a small car, and especially not one with MPG as a main design criteria. Sort of apples to apples, but my EG hatch with ~106HP used to run circles around it and return 40MPG city without effort. It was more practical to boot because the hatch was a lot bigger. Either way, it just wasn't worth it. Really wanted to like the CR-Z too. Had Honda not botched the powertrain, I likely would have.
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superchg2
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TheGandalf wrote:
STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS!
Even though some of his comments might hit the nail in the head+ his attitude and confrontational tone bring their usefullness to nil!
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Point taken!
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