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danielgr
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DrWhiner wrote:
RocketRon wrote:
Your French translation skills are decent. [...]
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I simply don't believe their general statement on Li-Ion batteries was relevant. The current batteries weight about 30kg, so even if they really cut it by 2 it would still remain around 15kg, which is nothing to change the character of the car per-se. The CR-Z could certainly benefit from an Li-battery pack, but the weight savings wouldn't be what you notice most. Obviously, I'd love to get the HCH hybrid parts combined with the CR-Z engine; that'd be nice and remains "a possibility" (since Honda has matched the HCH gas engine with NiMH pack for the JDM Freed), which is why I said 3/10 and not 0/10.
Maybe I'm just getting too cool on that famous Li pack. After all, that is also the combo I would have hoped for the ILX (believing it could have been shared by ILX/CR-Z), but then it didn't happen...
I also hoped it to come on the JDM Freed, but again, it didn't happen, so …
The fact is Honda has yet to use their brand new Li pack in Japan (since the Civic ain't selling here).
That said, it is also true that Honda is becoming pretty aggressive with their hybrids in Japan (we've got a new hybrid model every 3 or 4 months over here since past year) so who knows, maybe they just couldn't get it "on time" for the ILX but will still make it for the CR-Z this fall. Meaning the ILX could get it on MMC. So OK, I'll try to be nice, I'll give the Li-CR-Z rumour a 5/10 !!! (it's morning now in Japan, always feels more positive than night ;) )
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P54
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blackstripe77 wrote:
Interesting part is this RS-H weighs as little as the CR-Z and is as powerful (Insight 1.5 is slightly heavier and slightly less powerful).
Only problem is the Fit and its torsion beam rear suspension is one of the most uncomfortable cars I've ever ridden in. Harshness for rear passengers over bumps and poorly paved or damaged roads is unacceptable (considering it isn't tuned as a track car).. or maybe I'm getting old.. if only our roads were half as well paved as those in Japan!
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The Fit Hybrid drives better than regular Fit. Does anyone know if the Fit RS hybrid have torsion beam rear or share the independent rear from the Fit EV?
More Refined Than the Insight
All these thoughts flash through your mind as you pull open the door and slide behind the wheel for the first time. The regular Honda Fit is already an excellent small car. Is the more highbrow hybrid model really worth it?
In cutthroat Tokyo traffic, the 2012 Honda Fit Hybrid is not without appeal. It feels sharp and lively. It steers well at speed. And it has the kind of body control and low NVH levels that you can only dream of in the Insight.
The Fit Hybrid is Honda's most appealing hybrid to date.
The basic platform architecture and front strut/rear torsion-beam suspension is the same on the Fit Hybrid and Insight, but Honda has resolved spring and damper rates far more successfully this time. The Fit Hybrid has a supple, well-controlled ride that wouldn't shame an Accord. |
Just wait for the new factory in Mexico to roll out next generation Fit with IMA II and CVT, RS with EV rear and ED 1.8 or 2.0, 6MT and GT with ED 2.0 and EV rear and 6AT. Would that be a deal?
http://www.insideline.com/honda/fit-hybrid/2012/2012-honda-fit-hybrid-first-drive.html
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FiSH-Chan
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P54 wrote:
The Fit Hybrid drives better than regular Fit. Does anyone know if the Fit RS hybrid have torsion beam rear or share the independent rear from the Fit EV?
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I didn't check when i saw it in person (fit hybrid), but ill assume it's still torsionm beam, and the H RS would be the same. I'm just guessing they are leaving the independant rear suspension for the Fit or CRZ Type R if any is coming. im surprised it rides 'rivals the Accord', assuming the battery is weighing it down at the rear enough to smooth it out lol!
The article is correct, first impression when i look at a Fit hybrid, it's very impressive, and i am just commenting on LOOKING up close.. compared to that the Fit hybrid RS must be mind blowing.
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blackstripe77
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
P54 wrote:
The Fit Hybrid drives better than regular Fit. Does anyone know if the Fit RS hybrid have torsion beam rear or share the independent rear from the Fit EV?
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I didn't check when i saw it in person (fit hybrid), but ill assume it's still torsionm beam, and the H RS would be the same. I'm just guessing they are leaving the independant rear suspension for the Fit or CRZ Type R if any is coming. im surprised it rides 'rivals the Accord', assuming the battery is weighing it down at the rear enough to smooth it out lol!
The article is correct, first impression when i look at a Fit hybrid, it's very impressive, and i am just commenting on LOOKING up close.. compared to that the Fit hybrid RS must be mind blowing.
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Either the setup for hybrids with battery weight (Fit Hybrid, Insight) ride a lot better than the non-hybrid counterparts, or...
it is because they tested the Fit Hybrid in Japan. I'm pretty sure driving around Japan, you could replace your coilovers with bricks and not notice the difference.
Example of how smooth Japanese roads are. Check out the rolling shots at 1:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm7GrCrRVgo
No way he can run that low without a 20k+ spring rate on absolutely perfect road surfaces without destroying his bodywork every time he goes for a drive.
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danielgr
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blackstripe77 wrote:
FiSH-Chan wrote:
P54 wrote:
The Fit Hybrid drives better than regular Fit. Does anyone know if the Fit RS hybrid have torsion beam rear or share the independent rear from the Fit EV?
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The article is correct, first impression when i look at a Fit hybrid, it's very impressive, and i am just commenting on LOOKING up close.. compared to that the Fit hybrid RS must be mind blowing.
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Either the setup for hybrids with battery weight (Fit Hybrid, Insight) ride a lot better than the non-hybrid counterparts, or...
it is because they tested the Fit Hybrid in Japan. I'm pretty sure driving around Japan, you could replace your coilovers with bricks and not notice the difference.
Example of how smooth Japanese roads are. Check out the rolling shots at 1:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm7GrCrRVgo
No way he can run that low without a 20k+ spring rate on absolutely perfect road surfaces without destroying his bodywork every time he goes for a drive. |
1) Yes, the Fit hybrid rides much better tan our early 2nd gen Fit, it's also considerably more refined and silent. Honda said they made efforts for the hybrid, but I believe most of those improvements are shared with the rest of the MMC Fits (I have only drive-tested the Hybrid though).
2) I totally disagree with your statements over Japanese roads. Some of them are really nicely asphalted, but there are also tones of crappy ones. And yes, some people like the one in your video keep destroying their body work around, others live in a cage and only take their car out to take some video shots on some "safe haven". Actually, one really annoying thing in Japan is that there are bridges and elevated roads all over the country, full of extremely annoying dilatation joints. The other annoying thing is that quakes tend to upset and bend the roads in all possible directions every once in a while, and when you get a big one like past year it takes years to get the roads back into a decent state. Weather is also extreme all year long, from snowy winters to hardly breathable summers, and road surface deteriorates fast, only being regularly replaced in some of the richest places around Tokyo.
3) I don't think the problem of the Fit is the rear suspension, it's more about using crappy dampers. European cars have used torsion beams for decades and always done an impressive job filtering the road. Other Honda designs also do a much better job than the Japan (guess Asian as well from your comments) Fit, and if you get into a Insight, CR-Z, Freed, and specially the Euro Civic you'd find a hard time believing they actually share the same rear torsion beam. Heck, even the European Fit feels like night and day when compared with our Japanese one. The same could be said from the Hyundai Accent I drove in my recent SKorea trip, that thing was simply so much better filtering the road than our Fit it really put Honda to shame in that part. Certainly I share your view on our Fit, the ride is harsh, and it's one of the aspects I hope they improve considerably for the next generation (even more than what they've already done after MMC).
4) I said it before but the Fit EV is not a Fit. It looks like one, but it's not, it's a car built on a different plank, likely to share more underpinings with the original Honda EV/FCX than with a Fit.
5) Also said it many times, but I don't think it's possible for Honda to place the battery pack under the trunk with anything but a space-saving torsion-beam. The same torsion beam design does marvels to offer the cavernous interior and flexibility all its buyers love about it. When you see that Honda made that a priority even for an upmarket car like the European Civic, I think it's pretty safe to say they are not coming back to an independent setup for their entry level manmaxmachinemin little one.
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danielgr
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Honda has already said there will be:
- ED13
- ED15
- ED18
There is no gasoline only ED20 so far (only for the hybrid). So I'm afraid but there are well over 90% chances the Mexican Fit will be powered by a ED15 engine, while the ED18 is left for the Civic.
PS: Btw, JP road taxes (about 400USD/year for a Fit, more than 1000USD/y for the largest cars) remains based on engine capacity, and it goes:
- 1.0 to 1.5L
- 1.5 to 2.0L
etc.
That is likely to be an important reason for the Fit engine to be precisely sized at 1.5L (actually 1.496cc …)
There are other funny numbers like that on Japanese cars. For example, the so popular width of 1.695m comes from the fact that 1.7m is the limit to be considered "a small car". That is why so different cars such as the Fit, Stream, Freed, or even the 8-seater StepWGN share that spec. I don't know if there are any legal implications (taxes and so on), but I do know that:
- "normal cars" get different plate numbers (I believe starting with 3) that easily identify them.
- Automakers report sales differentiating between "kei, small and normal cars", instead of "cars & trucks" like in the USA.
- On many tower parking lots only small cars are allowed...
Basically, looking cars width is a way of understanding how important they are for the Japanese market. Anything at 1.695 is intended to sell well over here, anything above it means it's mainly focused on overseas markets. If you think about it, even the Accord used to be 1.695m wide, up to the 7th generation (where Honda made 3 different versions, one for the US, one for Europe, and a different one for Japan !!!). The same goes for the Civic, which ultimately has disappeared from our landscape short after giving up on the 1.695m size with the 8th gen.
Only premium/luxury cars go beyond that figure in Japan.
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CR-V9
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Danielgr,
Do you have any thoughts on this new Advanced IMA II(?)? Is this co-developed with/for ED family?
For example it wouldn't necessary have to fit into the place of their clutch or T-converter? Therefore it could be bit bigger, wider or whatever? Maybe two kinds? One for a 1.5 - 1.8l and one for a 2.4l for CRV and such? Any thoughts?
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blackstripe77
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danielgr wrote:
blackstripe77 wrote:
FiSH-Chan wrote:
P54 wrote:
The Fit Hybrid drives better than regular Fit. Does anyone know if the Fit RS hybrid have torsion beam rear or share the independent rear from the Fit EV?
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The article is correct, first impression when i look at a Fit hybrid, it's very impressive, and i am just commenting on LOOKING up close.. compared to that the Fit hybrid RS must be mind blowing.
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Either the setup for hybrids with battery weight (Fit Hybrid, Insight) ride a lot better than the non-hybrid counterparts, or...
it is because they tested the Fit Hybrid in Japan. I'm pretty sure driving around Japan, you could replace your coilovers with bricks and not notice the difference.
Example of how smooth Japanese roads are. Check out the rolling shots at 1:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm7GrCrRVgo
No way he can run that low without a 20k+ spring rate on absolutely perfect road surfaces without destroying his bodywork every time he goes for a drive. |
1) Yes, the Fit hybrid rides much better tan our early 2nd gen Fit, it's also considerably more refined and silent. Honda said they made efforts for the hybrid, but I believe most of those improvements are shared with the rest of the MMC Fits (I have only drive-tested the Hybrid though).
2) I totally disagree with your statements over Japanese roads. Some of them are really nicely asphalted, but there are also tones of crappy ones. And yes, some people like the one in your video keep destroying their body work around, others live in a cage and only take their car out to take some video shots on some "safe haven". Actually, one really annoying thing in Japan is that there are bridges and elevated roads all over the country, full of extremely annoying dilatation joints. The other annoying thing is that quakes tend to upset and bend the roads in all possible directions every once in a while, and when you get a big one like past year it takes years to get the roads back into a decent state. Weather is also extreme all year long, from snowy winters to hardly breathable summers, and road surface deteriorates fast, only being regularly replaced in some of the richest places around Tokyo.
3) I don't think the problem of the Fit is the rear suspension, it's more about using crappy dampers. European cars have used torsion beams for decades and always done an impressive job filtering the road. Other Honda designs also do a much better job than the Japan (guess Asian as well from your comments) Fit, and if you get into a Insight, CR-Z, Freed, and specially the Euro Civic you'd find a hard time believing they actually share the same rear torsion beam. Heck, even the European Fit feels like night and day when compared with our Japanese one. The same could be said from the Hyundai Accent I drove in my recent SKorea trip, that thing was simply so much better filtering the road than our Fit it really put Honda to shame in that part. Certainly I share your view on our Fit, the ride is harsh, and it's one of the aspects I hope they improve considerably for the next generation (even more than what they've already done after MMC).
4) I said it before but the Fit EV is not a Fit. It looks like one, but it's not, it's a car built on a different plank, likely to share more underpinings with the original Honda EV/FCX than with a Fit.
5) Also said it many times, but I don't think it's possible for Honda to place the battery pack under the trunk with anything but a space-saving torsion-beam. The same torsion beam design does marvels to offer the cavernous interior and flexibility all its buyers love about it. When you see that Honda made that a priority even for an upmarket car like the European Civic, I think it's pretty safe to say they are not coming back to an independent setup for their entry level manmaxmachinemin little one.
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Good to know that the Fit Hybrid now rides much better, especially since a friend with a Euro Civic has been complaining about the ride (and i-Shift transmission) in his car.
Back to the Fit - you could be right. I've been in an ASEAN first gen Fit in Thailand and despite the absolutely horrid roads it rode fine. On the other hand, I've only been in a second gen Fit in Hong Kong, which is built in Japan, and that was horrible. I wonder where the differences lie. If the ride problem could be solved by simply installing aftermarket dampers or ASEAN market dampers we have to wonder why the Japanese Fit uses the parts that it uses.
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danielgr
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blackstripe77 wrote:
Good to know that the Fit Hybrid now rides much better, especially since a friend with a Euro Civic has been complaining about the ride (and i-Shift transmission) in his car.
Back to the Fit - you could be right. I've been in an ASEAN first gen Fit in Thailand and despite the absolutely horrid roads it rode fine. On the other hand, I've only been in a second gen Fit in Hong Kong, which is built in Japan, and that was horrible. I wonder where the differences lie. If the ride problem could be solved by simply installing aftermarket dampers or ASEAN market dampers we have to wonder why the Japanese Fit uses the parts that it uses.
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Well, if you friend complains about the ride on his Euro Civic (I asume 8th gen) it's because he hasn't tried my Fit !!!
That said, I had specially in mind the 9th gen Euro Civic, which is said to be a much noticeable improvement over the 8th gen.
And btw, it's not just the damping, it's the whole car. Travelling around the world you discover that many global models look similar on paper/photos, but they are not. To me it's specially blatant everytime I go back to Spain and switch from our Fit to my father's Jazz. The European version is built to completely different standards, uses different plastic qualities, rides much better, is much more silent and refined. In many ways I believe the post MMC JDM Fits feel just like the European Jazzs, though I cannot tell for sure because I can't do back to back comparisons.
As for the ride quality, I'm not sure damping would be enough, believe stiffness of the whole chassis and suspension mounts is also pretty important, but I'm not an expert so I may be saying none-sense. What is for sure is that "not all Fits are born equal", and "not all torsion beam cars need to have a ride as crappy as our Fit".
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Fan Koni
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Yes the Euro Fits/Jazz as well as the CRVs ride heaps nicer than the Asean versions.
Just noticed it again this month, I blame a lot on the different tires.
Those are just the obvious parts. I am sure the Thai factories get very different grades of components from suppliers than in UK.
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blackstripe77
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Fan Koni wrote:
Yes the Euro Fits/Jazz as well as the CRVs ride heaps nicer than the Asean versions.
Just noticed it again this month, I blame a lot on the different tires.
Those are just the obvious parts. I am sure the Thai factories get very different grades of components from suppliers than in UK.
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I've only tried the first gen ASEAN Fit but I have to say it rides much better than the ones we get in Hong Kong (imported from Japan, so presumably the same components and setup).
I know the ASEAN Freed actually rides a little higher as well.
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FiSH-Chan
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Reminds me of the time I had 150kg of cement powder in the boot of my city (same torsion beam), very near (or exceed) the limit in the manual.. the ride isn't any better. I also put one of those ancient laser printers that is huge and weigh maybe about 40kg, certainly not easy to carry it into the boot. I think I probaly dont feel a difference that time too.
I think if you say that the ASEAN cars ride better... I can't to compare, but I will say it definitely does not ride like an Accord. I can feel every bump on the road, but the damping is pretty good, Well, just something to think about how the Fit Hybrid can ride like an Accord..
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