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CB77
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(On Tuesday of this week, AHM's president, Mr. Iwamura addressed all American Honda employees via teleconference. He basically talked about the difficult times Honda has been through this past year (with the earthquake and floods). Near the end of his speech, he addressed some topics that we see raised here at ToV quite often. I thought you would like to see what he said. Here is an excerpt from his talk.)
"For the Honda brand, this fall we launch the most critical model in our lineup an all-new Accord. The 2013 Accord will again be the unquestioned leader in the mid-size segment. And by the end of this year, we will introduce a minor model change of Civic. Despite the negative comments from media, Civic is the best-selling compact car over the past six months. But our goal is not only great sales, but true leadership in the compact segment. So, we pulled forward the MMC to make some key changes, including interior and exterior design refinements and ride and handling issues.
There also has been concern that Honda has lost its leadership in engine technology. But with the new Accord, we will begin to roll out our new Earth Dreams Powertrain Series over the next 3 to 4 years. This will include new direct injection engines, and a series of new transmissions that will result in both higher performance and higher fuel economy to improve our competitiveness. For example, the new CVT transmission for the next Accord will have a very sporty feeling.
Over the past 18 months, we have invested more than $1.7 billion dollars in our existing operations. That also includes adding second shifts and installing new equipment. As a result, during the next three years, we will significantly increase production volume in North America.
Importantly, in the coming years we will centralize the critical leadership role in our North American auto plants. This means our local plants will mature certain production processes and then share this know-how with Honda plants around the world. Up to now, this leadership role has been conducted in Japan. But we will challenge to do it in North America.
Finally, based on the larger S-E-D leadership role in North America, our Export Sales Division will be ramping up auto exports. This fall, we will reach the one million mark in total U.S. vehicle exports. And we will celebrate this achievement with great pride.
In short, Honda associates in the U.S., Canada and Mexico are developing additional capabilities to take even greater responsibility for meeting the needs of customers in North America and around the world.
This is an exciting time to be at Honda. And I am proud and happy to be with you to lead American Honda into the future.
Thank you."
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Mr. Taggart
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But with the new Accord, we will begin to roll out our new Earth Dreams Powertrain Series over the next 3 to 4 years. This will include new direct injection engines, and a series of new transmissions that will result in both higher performance and higher fuel economy to improve our competitiveness. For example, the new CVT transmission for the next Accord will have a very sporty feeling.
So in other words over the next 3-4 years Honda will roll out old engine blocks mated to new heads, more efficient battery packs, larger and more efficient IMA motors, and new transmissions that can compete with what most other auto makers have already rolled out or will do so in a much quicker time frame.
Seeing that they are not rolling out entirely new engines Honda must be limited by one or more of the following:
Adversion to risk
A mangement structure that places harmony above technological leaps
Limited capital
Limited understanding of the markets it serves
Limited strategic planning ability to determine what is truly Honda's core competencies and what is not and to focus on core compentencies and farm out the rest
Limited financial sense to realize the need for local production and to act on said need in a timely fashion
Paging Allan Mulally to surgery, Pagin Allan Mulally to surgery......
Honda is now becoming just like Sony. You can try and blame it on the Finance people but they are the one's who are listening to the crap that the marketing people are feeding everyone and don't have the stones to do what is right for Honda.
Can anyone name me any company led by a Japanese CEO that has been led out the position that Honda has put itself into? Don't say Toyoda, as Toyota is not out of the woods yet.
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Potenza
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
But with the new Accord, we will begin to roll out our new Earth Dreams Powertrain Series over the next 3 to 4 years.
So in other words over the next 3-4 years Honda will roll out old engine blocks mated to new heads
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Secondly, what do you want them to change about the blocks specifically? Do you simply want it to be stamped differently? The oil filter in a new location? Different water jackets? I would like to know precise concerns here.
Then, I would like to see a list of detailed changes to the block - and I'm sure there will be at least a few - and see if they align with your desired wants. They just might.
Otherwise, I'm not sure how we could go praising the K-series for all these years and then suddenly be upset by it not "changing" for the sake of change.
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according2kev
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"So, we pulled forward the MMC to make some key changes, including interior and exterior design refinements and ride and handling issues."
Was it Consumer Reports who called the Civic's ride "choppy"?
I hope they don't soften things in response to them. I drove a '12 Civic EXL and I thought it drove very nicely. I was in an unfamiliar area and during the test, came upon an inacative railroad track and didn't realize until I was right on it. The Civic damped the rumble very well IMHO. Unfortunately, I didn't get to test the handling but I've heard it's taken a downturn compared to the 8G.
Whatever the tweaks, I hope they can find a good balance between ride/handling.
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Mr. Taggart
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So what's your take on the rest of the statement that you truncated? Agree or disagree?
I guess where I was going is that when did Honda last have an entirely new engine series compared to thier competitors? Also the talke about new powertrains which leads to just how much you have to change to call someting a new powertrain?
I also think there was some talk to what Jeff saw in person was basic engine blocks that are currently in use. (Specifically the 3.5) Once again, how much time does it take to develop an new engine? As others have mentioned and I mention here others have been able to design entire new engines that are comperable or better to what Honda will not even fully introduce in the very near term. There have even been discussions how honda is having to kill the higher revving engines to meet fuel economy goals like in the current Civic SI.
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CVCC1974
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according2kev wrote:
"So, we pulled forward the MMC to make some key changes, including interior and exterior design refinements and ride and handling issues."
Was it Consumer Reports who called the Civic's ride "choppy"?
I hope they don't soften things in response to them. I drove a '12 Civic EXL and I thought it drove very nicely. I was in an unfamiliar area and during the test, came upon an inacative railroad track and didn't realize until I was right on it. The Civic damped the rumble very well IMHO. Unfortunately, I didn't get to test the handling but I've heard it's taken a downturn compared to the 8G.
Whatever the tweaks, I hope they can find a good balance between ride/handling.
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The handling is a quite big issue on the '12 Civic. The slow steering & somewhat 'disconnected' feel with the road. That was my impression from test-driving it (the non-Si model - that was Canadian EX with manual trans.), and I only compared it to the non-Si 8th & 7th gen models which I have. Most likely the culprit was the EPS and the steering ratio. Also the suspension got a little softer & tended to give the body-roll on corners, but still not as 'floaty' as the other compacts like Corolla or Elantra.
The ride was already fine though, for a Civic, I'm used to hear the road/tire noises & feel the bumps on the road when driving my Civics, so I don;t complain on that area. I prefer better handling & quicker steering (and firmer suspension tuning).
So it's great that they decided to improve the handling on '13 Civic. Hopefully they will match the steering & handling quality of the 8th gen at least.
I've been on the market for this Civic since the '12 model, so I'm waiting anxiously for the improvement. Better still, they will bring the Euro hatchback, but I won't expect too much on that to happen.
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Potenza
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
So what's your take on the rest of the statement that you truncated? Agree or disagree?
I guess where I was going is that when did Honda last have an entirely new engine series compared to thier competitors? Also the talke about new powertrains which leads to just how much you have to change to call someting a new powertrain?
I also think there was some talk to what Jeff saw in person was basic engine blocks that are currently in use. (Specifically the 3.5) Once again, how much time does it take to develop an new engine? As others have mentioned and I mention here others have been able to design entire new engines that are comperable or better to what Honda will not even fully introduce in the very near term. There have even been discussions how honda is having to kill the higher revving engines to meet fuel economy goals like in the current Civic SI.
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But again your big concern here is the block. Honda ran the D-series block for over 20 years and it worked just fine. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal that the 1984 Civic ran a D15 5MT setup while the 2005 Civic ran a D17 5MT setup. I'd say that's the power of "cylinder head updates."
You're asking how much time it takes to develop a new engine block, but I'd still like to know what part of the block you want to be new and improved? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just honestly don't understand. I can understand that "changed" = "new." But I don't think there's a benefit to any of that unless there are specific concerns to address that need improvement.
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P54
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Potenza wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
But with the new Accord, we will begin to roll out our new Earth Dreams Powertrain Series over the next 3 to 4 years.
So in other words over the next 3-4 years Honda will roll out old engine blocks mated to new heads
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Secondly, what do you want them to change about the blocks specifically? Do you simply want it to be stamped differently? The oil filter in a new location? Different water jackets? I would like to know precise concerns here.
Then, I would like to see a list of detailed changes to the block - and I'm sure there will be at least a few - and see if they align with your desired wants. They just might.
Otherwise, I'm not sure how we could go praising the K-series for all these years and then suddenly be upset by it not "changing" for the sake of change.
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+1
So Honda announces new power-trains. Finally they will come out with DI that so many complained about Honda not having. Instead of appreciating the news here comes the complaints about the possibility of using the same engine block. Where is power and FE generated, in the block or internals and head. That is the reason some are called whiners, whatever Honda do that you ask for still there is complaints about something else. And all this without knowing the details or having tested it.
Maybe the engine block have a smother surface, more or less reinforcements cast into it, thicker or thinner walls, or do you want a different color? Or are you looking for a totally new block with new crank, new bore and stroke and new engine size. What would you achieve or for what purpose, just for the heck of it, to make it more expensive or because you think it is outdated? With more torque and 10-15% fuel efficiency gain compared to the old engine should we not wait till it has been tested before we feed the negative mill?
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TonyEX
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
But with the new Accord, we will begin to roll out our new Earth Dreams Powertrain Series over the next 3 to 4 years. This will include new direct injection engines, and a series of new transmissions that will result in both higher performance and higher fuel economy to improve our competitiveness. For example, the new CVT transmission for the next Accord will have a very sporty feeling.
So in other words over the next 3-4 years Honda will roll out old engine blocks mated to new heads, more efficient battery packs, larger and more efficient IMA motors, and new transmissions that can compete with what most other auto makers have already rolled out or will do so in a much quicker time frame.
Seeing that they are not rolling out entirely new engines Honda must be limited by one or more of the following:
Adversion to risk
A mangement structure that places harmony above technological leaps
Limited capital
Limited understanding of the markets it serves
Limited strategic planning ability to determine what is truly Honda's core competencies and what is not and to focus on core compentencies and farm out the rest
Limited financial sense to realize the need for local production and to act on said need in a timely fashion
Paging Allan Mulally to surgery, Pagin Allan Mulally to surgery......
Honda is now becoming just like Sony. You can try and blame it on the Finance people but they are the one's who are listening to the crap that the marketing people are feeding everyone and don't have the stones to do what is right for Honda.
Can anyone name me any company led by a Japanese CEO that has been led out the position that Honda has put itself into? Don't say Toyoda, as Toyota is not out of the woods yet.
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(1) Allan Mulally mortaged all of Ford before the credit crisis.. that's how Ford built its cash hoard. HMC, OTOH, has built its cash hoard the old fashion way.. they EARNED it...
So I think you are flat on that. Cute, but flat.
(2) New heads, old blocks.. So what? If the blocks don't need changing why waste the money on them? Most of the technology really is in the heads and piston. If the crankshafts are fine, then pretty much all you may need to do is work on the piston liners and remove friction... an evolutionary endeavor.
You only need fancy oil cooling and special connecting rods for a few High Performance models and those can be handled via a side line.. like the ITR.
The heads, OTOH, are a revolutionary change as their behavior is quite different. If HMC can roll out reliable direct injection engines at a reasonable cost then that will be quite an achievement. Being a Honda, I fully expect that that head will not have to leave the block for the life of the car. I certainly don't expect to have those heads taken out every 60,000 miles for a valve job.
(3) CVTs... now you really are missing the point. If HMC/AHM can put "normal feeling" CVTs that can handle the torque of larger engines and that "shift quickly" then you have the Holy Grail: a very efficient transmission that never disconnects the drive train from the engine. That will be quite an achievement.
(4) IMA-II... with both fully electric, serial and mild hybrid modes of operation. Dude... how can you discount that? That make Honda the FIRST MANUFACTURER to build a FULL-FULL hybrid. The Prius and everything else will now become at best Half Full hybrid.
Now what I want is IMA-Ii in the Civic GX and Clarity and then you have the cleanest cars in the planet.
(5) Of course, the Europeans will get their super duper ED Diesel. Maybe HoE will finally sell cars to the French, who knows? The British seem to be content.
(6) Limited.. limited... limited... what's limited at Honda is their marketing and, of course, they had a limited vision of the future three years ago with the Lehman Fiasco and the credit crunch.. However, of all the automakers in the US, Honda was specially sensitive to the effect of the credit crunch because it's motorcycle business almost dried up because of lack of credit... so give them their due that they thought the same thing would happen to the car business.
(7) Quick redesign of the Civic... you know, the car overall if quite well.. It sounds like they are fixing the real problems: handling and interior finish. Maybe fix those plastic front panels that Jeff hates.. but in reality the basic car is fine, even if it lacks the K22 engine that the 8gen Si guys want.
(8) Oddly you missed AHM's real faux pas... the ILX. Did Iwamura say anything about the ILX? Because that's the one car that with fine tuning could triple Acura's yearly run rate.
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TonyEX
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according2kev wrote:
"So, we pulled forward the MMC to make some key changes, including interior and exterior design refinements and ride and handling issues."
Was it Consumer Reports who called the Civic's ride "choppy"?
I hope they don't soften things in response to them. I drove a '12 Civic EXL and I thought it drove very nicely. I was in an unfamiliar area and during the test, came upon an inacative railroad track and didn't realize until I was right on it. The Civic damped the rumble very well IMHO. Unfortunately, I didn't get to test the handling but I've heard it's taken a downturn compared to the 8G.
Whatever the tweaks, I hope they can find a good balance between ride/handling.
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I thought everyone complained about the LX.
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Grace141
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Thanks CB77 for posting this. That $1.7B US investment over the past 18 months for production updates sure doesn't sound like much for an auto company. I hope they have a good amount of cash on hand and are just being stingy with it.
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TonyEX
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Grace141 wrote:
Thanks CB77 for posting this. That $1.7B US investment over the past 18 months for production updates sure doesn't sound like much for an auto company. I hope they have a good amount of cash on hand and are just being stingy with it.
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From how he said it, it doesn't seem to include work on new vehicles nor updating the plants for that... it sounds like basic infrastructure on top of the work for designing and producing new products.
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according2kev
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TonyE wrote:
according2kev wrote:
"So, we pulled forward the MMC to make some key changes, including interior and exterior design refinements and ride and handling issues."
Was it Consumer Reports who called the Civic's ride "choppy"?
I hope they don't soften things in response to them. I drove a '12 Civic EXL and I thought it drove very nicely. I was in an unfamiliar area and during the test, came upon an inacative railroad track and didn't realize until I was right on it. The Civic damped the rumble very well IMHO. Unfortunately, I didn't get to test the handling but I've heard it's taken a downturn compared to the 8G.
Whatever the tweaks, I hope they can find a good balance between ride/handling.
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I thought everyone complained about the LX.
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That's what I thought I remember reading from a TOV member but found this...
"Overall, while the Civic EX does score better than the LX, it still doesn’t score high enough for us to recommend. That’s because multiple inherent problems remain, including a choppy ride, abundant road noise, vague steering, and cheap interior.
http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/10/2012-honda-civic-ex-testedbut-not-recommended.html
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Grace141
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That was my understanding as well. This must not include the new factory in Mexico. Or maybe I've devalued our dollar more than everyone else has.
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Mr. Taggart
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Potenza wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
So what's your take on the rest of the statement that you truncated? Agree or disagree?
I guess where I was going is that when did Honda last have an entirely new engine series compared to thier competitors? Also the talke about new powertrains which leads to just how much you have to change to call someting a new powertrain?
I also think there was some talk to what Jeff saw in person was basic engine blocks that are currently in use. (Specifically the 3.5) Once again, how much time does it take to develop an new engine? As others have mentioned and I mention here others have been able to design entire new engines that are comperable or better to what Honda will not even fully introduce in the very near term. There have even been discussions how honda is having to kill the higher revving engines to meet fuel economy goals like in the current Civic SI.
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But again your big concern here is the block. Honda ran the D-series block for over 20 years and it worked just fine. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal that the 1984 Civic ran a D15 5MT setup while the 2005 Civic ran a D17 5MT setup. I'd say that's the power of "cylinder head updates."
You're asking how much time it takes to develop a new engine block, but I'd still like to know what part of the block you want to be new and improved? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just honestly don't understand. I can understand that "changed" = "new." But I don't think there's a benefit to any of that unless there are specific concerns to address that need improvement.
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So back to the part that you truncated:
Honda is doing things that may put them on par with what other companies have already done, and does not put them a step ahead of them. In fact as I stated before Honda has been resorting to take the 'Hondaness' out of thier engine lineup. Do you think the current mill in the Civic SI is representative of the type of engine you expect from Honda? Can Honda not produce a high revving engine that can produce decent fuel economy or is Ito too worried about making cars with less CO2 output? Or is Honda too worried about playing the EPA game and now developing products that can game the EPA tests.
My metion of the block is because Honda is touting these 'new' powertrains that will be phased in over three to four years, in which its competitors will not stand still and will continue to improve their products. Is the real improvement because they are making changes to the engines or because they are putting in new transmissions, which they are playing catch up to their competitors.
To Tony's point sure, IF the CVT does what Honda says and IF it is reliable, and IF it delievers significantly fuel economy, and IF it does not have to be replaced if it fails and can be repaired then that is a good thing.
Same for the new auto/manual transmission. Honda has not been know to be the world's best transmission builders and its competitors are not standing still.
Also let's see the costs of these 'new' engines and transmissions. How much time and money has Honda spent in development? If the auto/manual and hybrid bits come from the stillborn HSV then it makes sense to use what they have learned in other products. As far as the CVT, what kind of cost did it take to develop and is it more costly to produce than a traditional auto slush bucket? If it costs more does the customer benefit from some significant improvement in fuel economy.
I guess where I am going is that to me it is all about the semantics of how Honda is using the word 'new' and 'class leading'. Honda has been lagging in technology under the hood and in the cabin for some time now and I have increasing doubts if they have been spending on the things that will put them in a competitive advantage or just put them back in the game.
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Mr. Taggart
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TonyE wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
But with the new Accord, we will begin to roll out our new Earth Dreams Powertrain Series over the next 3 to 4 years. This will include new direct injection engines, and a series of new transmissions that will result in both higher performance and higher fuel economy to improve our competitiveness. For example, the new CVT transmission for the next Accord will have a very sporty feeling.
So in other words over the next 3-4 years Honda will roll out old engine blocks mated to new heads, more efficient battery packs, larger and more efficient IMA motors, and new transmissions that can compete with what most other auto makers have already rolled out or will do so in a much quicker time frame.
Seeing that they are not rolling out entirely new engines Honda must be limited by one or more of the following:
Adversion to risk
A mangement structure that places harmony above technological leaps
Limited capital
Limited understanding of the markets it serves
Limited strategic planning ability to determine what is truly Honda's core competencies and what is not and to focus on core compentencies and farm out the rest
Limited financial sense to realize the need for local production and to act on said need in a timely fashion
Paging Allan Mulally to surgery, Pagin Allan Mulally to surgery......
Honda is now becoming just like Sony. You can try and blame it on the Finance people but they are the one's who are listening to the crap that the marketing people are feeding everyone and don't have the stones to do what is right for Honda.
Can anyone name me any company led by a Japanese CEO that has been led out the position that Honda has put itself into? Don't say Toyoda, as Toyota is not out of the woods yet.
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(1) Allan Mulally mortaged all of Ford before the credit crisis.. that's how Ford built its cash hoard. HMC, OTOH, has built its cash hoard the old fashion way.. they EARNED it...
So I think you are flat on that. Cute, but flat.
(2) New heads, old blocks.. So what? If the blocks don't need changing why waste the money on them? Most of the technology really is in the heads and piston. If the crankshafts are fine, then pretty much all you may need to do is work on the piston liners and remove friction... an evolutionary endeavor.
You only need fancy oil cooling and special connecting rods for a few High Performance models and those can be handled via a side line.. like the ITR.
The heads, OTOH, are a revolutionary change as their behavior is quite different. If HMC can roll out reliable direct injection engines at a reasonable cost then that will be quite an achievement. Being a Honda, I fully expect that that head will not have to leave the block for the life of the car. I certainly don't expect to have those heads taken out every 60,000 miles for a valve job.
(3) CVTs... now you really are missing the point. If HMC/AHM can put "normal feeling" CVTs that can handle the torque of larger engines and that "shift quickly" then you have the Holy Grail: a very efficient transmission that never disconnects the drive train from the engine. That will be quite an achievement.
(4) IMA-II... with both fully electric, serial and mild hybrid modes of operation. Dude... how can you discount that? That make Honda the FIRST MANUFACTURER to build a FULL-FULL hybrid. The Prius and everything else will now become at best Half Full hybrid.
Now what I want is IMA-Ii in the Civic GX and Clarity and then you have the cleanest cars in the planet.
(5) Of course, the Europeans will get their super duper ED Diesel. Maybe HoE will finally sell cars to the French, who knows? The British seem to be content.
(6) Limited.. limited... limited... what's limited at Honda is their marketing and, of course, they had a limited vision of the future three years ago with the Lehman Fiasco and the credit crunch.. However, of all the automakers in the US, Honda was specially sensitive to the effect of the credit crunch because it's motorcycle business almost dried up because of lack of credit... so give them their due that they thought the same thing would happen to the car business.
(7) Quick redesign of the Civic... you know, the car overall if quite well.. It sounds like they are fixing the real problems: handling and interior finish. Maybe fix those plastic front panels that Jeff hates.. but in reality the basic car is fine, even if it lacks the K22 engine that the 8gen Si guys want.
(8) Oddly you missed AHM's real faux pas... the ILX. Did Iwamura say anything about the ILX? Because that's the one car that with fine tuning could triple Acura's yearly run rate.
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1. Allan was smart enough to see the trouble ahead, way before everybody else figured out what was happening to the credit markets and decided that Ford could not have too much cash and people thought he was stupid and couldn't understand why he was mortgaging every piece of equipment and toolshed Ford owned. Honda was never willing to consider that: A. Given the long term devaluation of the dollar if would have made financial sense to start more US production way before the crisis, which would of helped insulate the company. (Let's even forget that they could of hedged the currency risk from US profits) B. Honda totally misread what would happen to liquidity in the long run. You think that the administration was going to let a bunch of union guys lose their jobs? Get on the phone and tell the banks that donated to you to start lending money. C. Honda could have leveraged their cash position and went ahead and produced they cars they had planned to released and really put some pressure on its competitors. (The problem with this is that the Korean H gets a ton of reduced rate funding from its parent company and the Korean goverment and has a very protected market at home, but I digress.) The strongest companies look at downturns in the economy as an opporitunity.
2. If honda has developed a solution to the DI issues, that is great. However, what is the cost vs. looking for ways to reduce vehicle weight. And will these new engines have 'Hondaness' or they are going to be more like something from GM to drive?
3. See comment on CVT in another response. Also the assumption is that no one else is working on the same thing or will have something similiar sometime soon. (Compare this to the old CVCC engine; people said it couldn't be done, Honda made it happen.)
4. What is this beast going to weigh? How much was spent? What would it of costs to try and reduce weight instead? Will these electric motors increase unsprung weight which is the enemy of proper handling? (Once again on the costs front, how much does all this costs and how much could of been spent on getting something like the clairty on the market. How much does Honda spend lobbying in it largest market? You think given what the government is handing out to Telsla Honda could of gotten a billion or so.)
5. You think the European makes ever want to let something like that see the light of day over there?
6. I thought you said earlier Honda was flush with cash, now they aren't? Why didn't they do some of their own lending? Maybe the US motorcycle market isn't a good place for Honda to spend money anymore? See above if Honda really thought that credit would dry up. See Chrysler being able to get cars financed when it looked like they were going to have to close up shop.
7. Ito got scared, wet his pants and made them redesign the car so it would be significantly cheaper to produce. Engineers came back and said sure, but it will compromise the vehicle. Ito didn't care. He has been very proud about stating how much cheaper the car is to build versus the prior generation. That does sound like the Honda of old. One of two things happened. A. Managment was asleep at the wheel and they stopped looking for ways to continuously improve the manufacturing process in the 8G. B. Ito decied to pull a Jose Ignacio Lopez de Arriortua and just figure people would continue to buy the car because of the Honda name. Tony would YOU ever think that a HONDA would be have to be reworked because of chintzy interior materials? Be honest!
8. I lumped the ILX in with the ZDX coming out and the removal of a proper manual transmission of most Accords as the marketing types continued to sell a pile of bull sh*t that the corporate staff swallowed. Honda has started to buy way too much into what focus groups say, instead of bulding cars that were of lineage to Honda's past. But that may be gone for good due to Ito's slavery to greenhouse gases. Guess he thinks he has found the way forward for Honda. I am not buying into it yet.
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JP
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
TonyE wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
But with the new Accord, we will begin to roll out our new Earth Dreams Powertrain Series over the next 3 to 4 years. This will include new direct injection engines, and a series of new transmissions that will result in both higher performance and higher fuel economy to improve our competitiveness. For example, the new CVT transmission for the next Accord will have a very sporty feeling.
So in other words over the next 3-4 years Honda will roll out old engine blocks mated to new heads, more efficient battery packs, larger and more efficient IMA motors, and new transmissions that can compete with what most other auto makers have already rolled out or will do so in a much quicker time frame.
Seeing that they are not rolling out entirely new engines Honda must be limited by one or more of the following:
Adversion to risk
A mangement structure that places harmony above technological leaps
Limited capital
Limited understanding of the markets it serves
Limited strategic planning ability to determine what is truly Honda's core competencies and what is not and to focus on core compentencies and farm out the rest
Limited financial sense to realize the need for local production and to act on said need in a timely fashion
Paging Allan Mulally to surgery, Pagin Allan Mulally to surgery......
Honda is now becoming just like Sony. You can try and blame it on the Finance people but they are the one's who are listening to the crap that the marketing people are feeding everyone and don't have the stones to do what is right for Honda.
Can anyone name me any company led by a Japanese CEO that has been led out the position that Honda has put itself into? Don't say Toyoda, as Toyota is not out of the woods yet.
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(1) Allan Mulally mortaged all of Ford before the credit crisis.. that's how Ford built its cash hoard. HMC, OTOH, has built its cash hoard the old fashion way.. they EARNED it...
So I think you are flat on that. Cute, but flat.
(2) New heads, old blocks.. So what? If the blocks don't need changing why waste the money on them? Most of the technology really is in the heads and piston. If the crankshafts are fine, then pretty much all you may need to do is work on the piston liners and remove friction... an evolutionary endeavor.
You only need fancy oil cooling and special connecting rods for a few High Performance models and those can be handled via a side line.. like the ITR.
The heads, OTOH, are a revolutionary change as their behavior is quite different. If HMC can roll out reliable direct injection engines at a reasonable cost then that will be quite an achievement. Being a Honda, I fully expect that that head will not have to leave the block for the life of the car. I certainly don't expect to have those heads taken out every 60,000 miles for a valve job.
(3) CVTs... now you really are missing the point. If HMC/AHM can put "normal feeling" CVTs that can handle the torque of larger engines and that "shift quickly" then you have the Holy Grail: a very efficient transmission that never disconnects the drive train from the engine. That will be quite an achievement.
(4) IMA-II... with both fully electric, serial and mild hybrid modes of operation. Dude... how can you discount that? That make Honda the FIRST MANUFACTURER to build a FULL-FULL hybrid. The Prius and everything else will now become at best Half Full hybrid.
Now what I want is IMA-Ii in the Civic GX and Clarity and then you have the cleanest cars in the planet.
(5) Of course, the Europeans will get their super duper ED Diesel. Maybe HoE will finally sell cars to the French, who knows? The British seem to be content.
(6) Limited.. limited... limited... what's limited at Honda is their marketing and, of course, they had a limited vision of the future three years ago with the Lehman Fiasco and the credit crunch.. However, of all the automakers in the US, Honda was specially sensitive to the effect of the credit crunch because it's motorcycle business almost dried up because of lack of credit... so give them their due that they thought the same thing would happen to the car business.
(7) Quick redesign of the Civic... you know, the car overall if quite well.. It sounds like they are fixing the real problems: handling and interior finish. Maybe fix those plastic front panels that Jeff hates.. but in reality the basic car is fine, even if it lacks the K22 engine that the 8gen Si guys want.
(8) Oddly you missed AHM's real faux pas... the ILX. Did Iwamura say anything about the ILX? Because that's the one car that with fine tuning could triple Acura's yearly run rate.
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1. Allan was smart enough to see the trouble ahead, way before everybody else figured out what was happening to the credit markets and decided that Ford could not have too much cash and people thought he was stupid and couldn't understand why he was mortgaging every piece of equipment and toolshed Ford owned. Honda was never willing to consider that: A. Given the long term devaluation of the dollar if would have made financial sense to start more US production way before the crisis, which would of helped insulate the company. (Let's even forget that they could of hedged the currency risk from US profits) B. Honda totally misread what would happen to liquidity in the long run. You think that the administration was going to let a bunch of union guys lose their jobs? Get on the phone and tell the banks that donated to you to start lending money. C. Honda could have leveraged their cash position and went ahead and produced they cars they had planned to released and really put some pressure on its competitors. (The problem with this is that the Korean H gets a ton of reduced rate funding from its parent company and the Korean goverment and has a very protected market at home, but I digress.) The strongest companies look at downturns in the economy as an opporitunity.
2. If honda has developed a solution to the DI issues, that is great. However, what is the cost vs. looking for ways to reduce vehicle weight. And will these new engines have 'Hondaness' or they are going to be more like something from GM to drive?
3. See comment on CVT in another response. Also the assumption is that no one else is working on the same thing or will have something similiar sometime soon. (Compare this to the old CVCC engine; people said it couldn't be done, Honda made it happen.)
4. What is this beast going to weigh? How much was spent? What would it of costs to try and reduce weight instead? Will these electric motors increase unsprung weight which is the enemy of proper handling? (Once again on the costs front, how much does all this costs and how much could of been spent on getting something like the clairty on the market. How much does Honda spend lobbying in it largest market? You think given what the government is handing out to Telsla Honda could of gotten a billion or so.)
5. You think the European makes ever want to let something like that see the light of day over there?
6. I thought you said earlier Honda was flush with cash, now they aren't? Why didn't they do some of their own lending? Maybe the US motorcycle market isn't a good place for Honda to spend money anymore? See above if Honda really thought that credit would dry up. See Chrysler being able to get cars financed when it looked like they were going to have to close up shop.
7. Ito got scared, wet his pants and made them redesign the car so it would be significantly cheaper to produce. Engineers came back and said sure, but it will compromise the vehicle. Ito didn't care. He has been very proud about stating how much cheaper the car is to build versus the prior generation. That does sound like the Honda of old. One of two things happened. A. Managment was asleep at the wheel and they stopped looking for ways to continuously improve the manufacturing process in the 8G. B. Ito decied to pull a Jose Ignacio Lopez de Arriortua and just figure people would continue to buy the car because of the Honda name. Tony would YOU ever think that a HONDA would be have to be reworked because of chintzy interior materials? Be honest!
8. I lumped the ILX in with the ZDX coming out and the removal of a proper manual transmission of most Accords as the marketing types continued to sell a pile of bull sh*t that the corporate staff swallowed. Honda has started to buy way too much into what focus groups say, instead of bulding cars that were of lineage to Honda's past. But that may be gone for good due to Ito's slavery to greenhouse gases. Guess he thinks he has found the way forward for Honda. I am not buying into it yet.
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If their intention would be saving money building the civic, they would change production to Mexico... That WOULD save money...
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TonyEX
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Sometimes I wish I were a preacher, then I could properly say
You Sir..
[ and the chorus girls go: Tell him! Tell the brother! ]
..Are CONJECTURING!
[ chorus: Hallelujah! ]
Lots of ifs, lots of value judgments... No real facts.
[ chorus: No Facts! None!]
...So as the proof is in the pudding as they say, so I'd wait to see.
[ chorus: In The Pudding! Amen! ]
How HMC/AHM do this, the final measures of product improvement are more important than how they achieve it. If they feel that some parts are good enough and others need to be updated then so be it.
If they fall short, then go at them, but don't fore-shortchange them because you really have no clue what they're doing, nor how they're doing it.
In the meantime we've snagged a '12 TSX Wagon Tech and a '12 Civic Si Navi sedan... both should be delivered very soon.
So we're set for the year.
And... I just read that the K24's Si does 0-60 in less than 7 seconds, and the numbers show that it is faster in the mid range which is where the car will be, never at redline on a race track.
Now, realize that we've been driving a Civic Hybrid and a CRV. Wrap your head for a while about that....
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FiSH-Chan
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Too many of other reviews I have come across did not mention a choppy ride. In fact most say it is too soft. Only CR, or reviews that refer to CR, says choppy.
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P54
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TonyE wrote:
Sometimes I wish I were a preacher, then I could properly say
You Sir..
[ and the chorus girls go: Tell him! Tell the brother! ]
..Are CONJECTURING!
[ chorus: Hallelujah! ]
Lots of ifs, lots of value judgments... No real facts.
[ chorus: No Facts! None!]
...So as the proof is in the pudding as they say, so I'd wait to see.
[ chorus: In The Pudding! Amen! ]
How HMC/AHM do this, the final measures of product improvement are more important than how they achieve it. If they feel that some parts are good enough and others need to be updated then so be it.
If they fall short, then go at them, but don't fore-shortchange them because you really have no clue what they're doing, nor how they're doing it.
In the meantime we've snagged a '12 TSX Wagon Tech and a '12 Civic Si Navi sedan... both should be delivered very soon.
So we're set for the year.
And... I just read that the K24's Si does 0-60 in less than 7 seconds, and the numbers show that it is faster in the mid range which is where the car will be, never at redline on a race track.
Now, realize that we've been driving a Civic Hybrid and a CRV. Wrap your head for a while about that....
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Preach it man, preach it! Hallelujah! Amen, amen!
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according2kev
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Too many of other reviews I have come across did not mention a choppy ride. In fact most say it is too soft. Only CR, or reviews that refer to CR, says choppy.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not in agreement with CR, it's actually the total opposite (see my earlier posts above).
The link was in response to the OP who thought the choppy ride comment was limited to the LX model.
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FiSH-Chan
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according2kev wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not in agreement with CR, it's actually the total opposite (see my earlier posts above). The link was in response to the OP who thought the choppy ride comment was limited to the LX model.
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Yup realized that after posting ;)
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Mr. Taggart
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TonyE wrote:
Sometimes I wish I were a preacher, then I could properly say
You Sir..
[ and the chorus girls go: Tell him! Tell the brother! ]
..Are CONJECTURING!
[ chorus: Hallelujah! ]
Lots of ifs, lots of value judgments... No real facts.
[ chorus: No Facts! None!]
...So as the proof is in the pudding as they say, so I'd wait to see.
[ chorus: In The Pudding! Amen! ]
How HMC/AHM do this, the final measures of product improvement are more important than how they achieve it. If they feel that some parts are good enough and others need to be updated then so be it.
If they fall short, then go at them, but don't fore-shortchange them because you really have no clue what they're doing, nor how they're doing it.
In the meantime we've snagged a '12 TSX Wagon Tech and a '12 Civic Si Navi sedan... both should be delivered very soon.
So we're set for the year.
And... I just read that the K24's Si does 0-60 in less than 7 seconds, and the numbers show that it is faster in the mid range which is where the car will be, never at redline on a race track.
Now, realize that we've been driving a Civic Hybrid and a CRV. Wrap your head for a while about that....
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Ok Tony I know your wife works for Honda and all but I think that you have drank the kool aid.
FACTS:
ITO forced the redesign of the Civic and cancelled the HSV because HE misread the credit markets. ITO could have shelved the HSV for a matter of time and brought it to production at a later date. It is not conjecture to ask how much of what was learned and spent will be applied to other vehicles, and wheather or not this will make FOR CLASS LEADING VEHICLES. Not conjecture just a valid question.
ITO ok'd the very Toyota like Civic that we have today. ITO has personally stated himself how proud he was about the production costs cut out from 8G to 9G. Go back and look at the body in white article that was posted here. And it is not conjecture to say that either Honda had gotten lazy in reducing production costs or that ITO went all GM and forced production costs reductions thata ended up impacting the final product. You are right I do not know the answer, but if WE knew the answer we could better understand how quickly Honda could right the ship.
It is a fair question to wonder if given Honda's performance over the past ten years if all the money being spent on the ED (Bad name though, keep thinking the need to by Enzyte to swing free and easy) could have been spent better on reducing vehicle weight or making a few more products. But for some reason you think that Honda has hit a home run.
It is a FACT that most other auto makers have had proper 6 speed tranmissions for a very long time improving both drivablility and fuel economy but for some reason Honda has lagged considerably. You have connections Tony, why is this so? Do you not think this has been a competiive disadvantage? YOU yourself would prefer that McKenzie come with a 6 speed manual but it is not offered why? Can YOU tell me? You are right, I do not know why this is or how they came up with their decision to not offer it but it is fair for me to say it is wrong, just like not offering the ILX with the best engine and a NAVI.
It is also a FACT that the other auto makers are not standing still while Honda crows about where they will be in three to four years? Is it wrong to say based on Honda's recent and past execution that one has doubts that Honda it out there tooting its horn about how they think the Civic is ok, the media is a bunch of whiners, but they will go ahead and move up a MMC? Can you tell me Tony when is the last time Honda had a MMC one year into a product? And Tony yes it matters how Honda achieves something, so much more than the final product. For Christ sakes, you are an engineer and know that the process of how you do something has a HUGE impact on what comes out. If now Honda is no better than the old GM. Screw the process development work, we can fix everything once we get ready for production. The strategic planning and product development processes must work effectively to make an effective product. Let me ask this: Tony if YOU workded for Honda would you have stood up to ITO and told him that the 9G did not meet Honda standards? What is not conjecture is that either Honda's processes or culture procludes someone for doing this or that Honda does not have people who are committed enough to stand up. For reference on the impact of culture and processes, see Morton Thoikol, circa 1980's and Challenger disaster.
It is a FACT that Honda's marketing is for shit and ITO and the corporate staff has bought what they have said hook, line, and sinker. Did you listen to the BS that was said in the making of the ILX name? When I see ILX I think Ill-express or Ill-extra. There was some research work done that included how Honda is using more focus groups to design their vehicles, which resulted in more areas of glass in the current Accord because people wanted others to 'see' them when they drove thier car. If the study is available for public release (have an aquaintence who did some research on focus groups and he passed on the info) I will try and post it, so I do know how they have been doing things. Do YOU believe that Honda has been successful spending more money on focus groups? Has Honda been successful in the past without so much effort on focus groups?
IT is a FACT that Honda has screwed up Acura royally and cunsumers have no IDEA what it means to be an Acura automobile. Tony, you seem to be a man of the world, how would YOU describe Honda and Acura in terms of a watch? Which watch brand would each of them be and why?
It is a FACT that Honda should of increased US production over ten years ago, as there has been no end in sight to the drunken sailor spending that has went on by Congress. (Btw, how's that train coming out there in Cali? Hear its under budget and ahead of schedule.) They had to know that there would be no recovery of the dollar any time soon. But this is basic international economics and not some graduate level work to understand this. IT is also a FACT that given QE1 and QE2 well over three or four years ago that Honda should of accellerated their efforts for local production and local exports. I would also say it is a FACT that Honda would have had no problem securing local govermental financing and tax breaks to expand production given the current economy.
And as far as the K24 goes it sounds like you would rather drive the 2012 Civic SI with the K24 than your old ITR? IF Honda is indeed getting rid of its free revving engines, it is losing another of what used to make up a Honda and deliver 'Hondaness' which might be fine with the company.
Tony you seem to be saying, forget all of Honda's many recent shortcomings and believe that Honda has found the way. I prefer to look at it that Honda has been unable to deliver so I look at the company and what they say with a skeptical eye. Would I like for them to achieve what they say? Yes! Do I doubt it? Certainly!
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Chocs
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
FACTS:
ITO ... and cancelled the HSV ...
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Boy, this is wired into everybody's head, isnt it...
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P54
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If you look to Honda's past history you will see they at times did "MMC" just before the actual production began. They changed the design and different things at the last minute prior to production. That the Civic get some changes a year later after all the negative publicity is a no-brainer, we'll see how the media responds, if they will give as much positive publicity as they did negative if Honda correct what was criticized.
Ito does not run a one man show at Honda, they have a board and decisions are made by the board, that Ito announces them does not mean he by himself against the will of the board decided it. As custom is in Japan the leader takes responsibility for choices whether made by him or others. In the west they just give poor leaders a golden parachute worth $ millions and let them go. When it comes to NSX, Ito have said he wants the new NSX to be in the spirit of the first one. Seems like the front engine NSX was not. To be a technological challenge and in tune with the "green movement" as well as performance. Civic is supposed to be a mass seller and Corolla sells well with 4AT, maybe they tried to aim at the mass market with a more economical approach, if it backfires they can always correct that. To be independent they need a certain sales numbers to stay afloat. Hit and misses come and go and Honda I am sure will correct issues if they see sales are suffering. We all see things different from manufactures, we have different preferences and it is easy to criticize. Manufacturers have engineers and key people retire, new one comes with different background and new ideas. We all agree that some of the good things from Honda's past is gone, however things tend to cycle and good and bad come and go. We all also agree that Honda marketing is the worst part of Honda. I guess they were so spoiled by their past were everything sold by word of mouth. Today the "word of internet" can easily damage a decades long good reputation. We also have to remember that looks or design is a subjective thing and all the things that "TOVers" like or dislike might not be what the average Joe is looking for. Civic still sell pretty well.
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P54
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Chocs wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
FACTS:
ITO ... and cancelled the HSV ...
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Boy, this is wired into everybody's head, isnt it...
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Who did the brain washing? Is it an actual fact or just an preconceived idea that spreads on internet?
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TonyEX
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REPENT!
[ and the chorus girls go: Praise the Sinner! Amen Brother!]
...
We agree on the mis-marketing the Acura brand and the overall weak marketing of the Honda brand. The rest... we have not drunk any Kool Aid... our dinner conversations are seldom paeans to AHM, but often disbelief at how the brands can be so mismanaged and why we can't get the cars with the go fast and luxo items that we want: NAVI, MT6s, LSDs, etc....
But we disagree on the hardware (engineering side)- many of the things you say are pure marketing... if Toyota or Ford does with an AT6 what Honda can do with an AT5... so what?
If Honda can do the same thing with a simpler set up ( which as a matter of fact it does) then the only upside of the more complex transmission would be marketing bragging rights, but less money in the bank.
I figure it just shows that Toyota and Ford engineering is weaker than Honda because they need more complex systems to achiever the same object. Huh?
You keep falling in the love with the hardware, not with what it does.
Remember... it was Einstein who said: "Things should be as simple as possible but not simpler".
Oh, I don't wear a watch. I owned a few very nice analog Seikos.. mostly with leather bands, but if I need to time I look up my computer, the NAVI in the car or my cell phone.
Speaking of cell phones.. watches will be soon relegated.. as soon as we get OLEDs folded into the next gen 4th cell phone, your "really very, very, very smart" phone will be your watch.
Check this... an Android Watch
http://getpebble.com/
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swmtam
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TonyE wrote:
Remember... it was Einstein who said: "Things should be as simple as possible but not simpler".
Oh, I don't wear a watch. I owned a few very nice analog Seikos.. mostly with leather bands, but if I need to time I look up my computer, the NAVI in the car or my cell phone.
Speaking of cell phones.. watches will be soon relegated.. as soon as we get OLEDs folded into the next gen 4th cell phone, your "really very, very, very smart" phone will be your watch.
Check this... an Android Watch
http://getpebble.com/
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Getting a little off topic...but speaking of simple, watches and Seiko...
My tool watch that I go paddling with...
^_^
Honda, Seiko and Nikon are my Japanese kryptonite I guess...
well kryptonite to my bank account..
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owequitit
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
TonyE wrote:
Sometimes I wish I were a preacher, then I could properly say
You Sir..
[ and the chorus girls go: Tell him! Tell the brother! ]
..Are CONJECTURING!
[ chorus: Hallelujah! ]
Lots of ifs, lots of value judgments... No real facts.
[ chorus: No Facts! None!]
...So as the proof is in the pudding as they say, so I'd wait to see.
[ chorus: In The Pudding! Amen! ]
How HMC/AHM do this, the final measures of product improvement are more important than how they achieve it. If they feel that some parts are good enough and others need to be updated then so be it.
If they fall short, then go at them, but don't fore-shortchange them because you really have no clue what they're doing, nor how they're doing it.
In the meantime we've snagged a '12 TSX Wagon Tech and a '12 Civic Si Navi sedan... both should be delivered very soon.
So we're set for the year.
And... I just read that the K24's Si does 0-60 in less than 7 seconds, and the numbers show that it is faster in the mid range which is where the car will be, never at redline on a race track.
Now, realize that we've been driving a Civic Hybrid and a CRV. Wrap your head for a while about that....
|
Ok Tony I know your wife works for Honda and all but I think that you have drank the kool aid.
FACTS:
ITO forced the redesign of the Civic and cancelled the HSV because HE misread the credit markets. ITO could have shelved the HSV for a matter of time and brought it to production at a later date. It is not conjecture to ask how much of what was learned and spent will be applied to other vehicles, and wheather or not this will make FOR CLASS LEADING VEHICLES. Not conjecture just a valid question.
ITO ok'd the very Toyota like Civic that we have today. ITO has personally stated himself how proud he was about the production costs cut out from 8G to 9G. Go back and look at the body in white article that was posted here. And it is not conjecture to say that either Honda had gotten lazy in reducing production costs or that ITO went all GM and forced production costs reductions thata ended up impacting the final product. You are right I do not know the answer, but if WE knew the answer we could better understand how quickly Honda could right the ship.
It is a fair question to wonder if given Honda's performance over the past ten years if all the money being spent on the ED (Bad name though, keep thinking the need to by Enzyte to swing free and easy) could have been spent better on reducing vehicle weight or making a few more products. But for some reason you think that Honda has hit a home run.
It is a FACT that most other auto makers have had proper 6 speed tranmissions for a very long time improving both drivablility and fuel economy but for some reason Honda has lagged considerably. You have connections Tony, why is this so? Do you not think this has been a competiive disadvantage? YOU yourself would prefer that McKenzie come with a 6 speed manual but it is not offered why? Can YOU tell me? You are right, I do not know why this is or how they came up with their decision to not offer it but it is fair for me to say it is wrong, just like not offering the ILX with the best engine and a NAVI.
It is also a FACT that the other auto makers are not standing still while Honda crows about where they will be in three to four years? Is it wrong to say based on Honda's recent and past execution that one has doubts that Honda it out there tooting its horn about how they think the Civic is ok, the media is a bunch of whiners, but they will go ahead and move up a MMC? Can you tell me Tony when is the last time Honda had a MMC one year into a product? And Tony yes it matters how Honda achieves something, so much more than the final product. For Christ sakes, you are an engineer and know that the process of how you do something has a HUGE impact on what comes out. If now Honda is no better than the old GM. Screw the process development work, we can fix everything once we get ready for production. The strategic planning and product development processes must work effectively to make an effective product. Let me ask this: Tony if YOU workded for Honda would you have stood up to ITO and told him that the 9G did not meet Honda standards? What is not conjecture is that either Honda's processes or culture procludes someone for doing this or that Honda does not have people who are committed enough to stand up. For reference on the impact of culture and processes, see Morton Thoikol, circa 1980's and Challenger disaster.
It is a FACT that Honda's marketing is for shit and ITO and the corporate staff has bought what they have said hook, line, and sinker. Did you listen to the BS that was said in the making of the ILX name? When I see ILX I think Ill-express or Ill-extra. There was some research work done that included how Honda is using more focus groups to design their vehicles, which resulted in more areas of glass in the current Accord because people wanted others to 'see' them when they drove thier car. If the study is available for public release (have an aquaintence who did some research on focus groups and he passed on the info) I will try and post it, so I do know how they have been doing things. Do YOU believe that Honda has been successful spending more money on focus groups? Has Honda been successful in the past without so much effort on focus groups?
IT is a FACT that Honda has screwed up Acura royally and cunsumers have no IDEA what it means to be an Acura automobile. Tony, you seem to be a man of the world, how would YOU describe Honda and Acura in terms of a watch? Which watch brand would each of them be and why?
It is a FACT that Honda should of increased US production over ten years ago, as there has been no end in sight to the drunken sailor spending that has went on by Congress. (Btw, how's that train coming out there in Cali? Hear its under budget and ahead of schedule.) They had to know that there would be no recovery of the dollar any time soon. But this is basic international economics and not some graduate level work to understand this. IT is also a FACT that given QE1 and QE2 well over three or four years ago that Honda should of accellerated their efforts for local production and local exports. I would also say it is a FACT that Honda would have had no problem securing local govermental financing and tax breaks to expand production given the current economy.
And as far as the K24 goes it sounds like you would rather drive the 2012 Civic SI with the K24 than your old ITR? IF Honda is indeed getting rid of its free revving engines, it is losing another of what used to make up a Honda and deliver 'Hondaness' which might be fine with the company.
Tony you seem to be saying, forget all of Honda's many recent shortcomings and believe that Honda has found the way. I prefer to look at it that Honda has been unable to deliver so I look at the company and what they say with a skeptical eye. Would I like for them to achieve what they say? Yes! Do I doubt it? Certainly!
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A couple of issues with your "facts."
1) Ito did not cancel the HSV, Fukui did. It was one of his last acts as CEO. It may have been at the behest of the incoming management, but he was the one that cancelled both the HSV and the RWD Legend/RL replacement.
2) While Ito did send Honda back to the board on the Civic, and he misjudged the need for cheapness, it was a reasonable choice given the circumstances. I don't agree with it, because IMO, you have to offer NICER things when the economy is down (you have to fight harder for less $$$), but it was what it was. I don't think the Civic was all bad though. In reality, the fundamental car is still very good, they just went a little far toward the Corolla in setup. In reality, the powertrains are competitive with the segment. They beat some tauted cars like the Elantra in MPG and acceleration, as well as NVH.
2) Holding a 6AT as an unquestionable sign of Honda's failure isn't exactly fair either. Yeah, a lot of other companies had them first. But a lot of other companies had fairly widespread complaints about the way they were setup too. That said, I would rather Honda be about 5 years late to the party than to release another 6th gen Accord auto tranny.
The rest I don't necessarily disagree with.
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owequitit
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Mr. Taggart wrote:
Potenza wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
So what's your take on the rest of the statement that you truncated? Agree or disagree?
I guess where I was going is that when did Honda last have an entirely new engine series compared to thier competitors? Also the talke about new powertrains which leads to just how much you have to change to call someting a new powertrain?
I also think there was some talk to what Jeff saw in person was basic engine blocks that are currently in use. (Specifically the 3.5) Once again, how much time does it take to develop an new engine? As others have mentioned and I mention here others have been able to design entire new engines that are comperable or better to what Honda will not even fully introduce in the very near term. There have even been discussions how honda is having to kill the higher revving engines to meet fuel economy goals like in the current Civic SI.
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But again your big concern here is the block. Honda ran the D-series block for over 20 years and it worked just fine. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal that the 1984 Civic ran a D15 5MT setup while the 2005 Civic ran a D17 5MT setup. I'd say that's the power of "cylinder head updates."
You're asking how much time it takes to develop a new engine block, but I'd still like to know what part of the block you want to be new and improved? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just honestly don't understand. I can understand that "changed" = "new." But I don't think there's a benefit to any of that unless there are specific concerns to address that need improvement.
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So back to the part that you truncated:
Honda is doing things that may put them on par with what other companies have already done, and does not put them a step ahead of them. In fact as I stated before Honda has been resorting to take the 'Hondaness' out of thier engine lineup. Do you think the current mill in the Civic SI is representative of the type of engine you expect from Honda? Can Honda not produce a high revving engine that can produce decent fuel economy or is Ito too worried about making cars with less CO2 output? Or is Honda too worried about playing the EPA game and now developing products that can game the EPA tests.
My metion of the block is because Honda is touting these 'new' powertrains that will be phased in over three to four years, in which its competitors will not stand still and will continue to improve their products. Is the real improvement because they are making changes to the engines or because they are putting in new transmissions, which they are playing catch up to their competitors.
To Tony's point sure, IF the CVT does what Honda says and IF it is reliable, and IF it delievers significantly fuel economy, and IF it does not have to be replaced if it fails and can be repaired then that is a good thing.
Same for the new auto/manual transmission. Honda has not been know to be the world's best transmission builders and its competitors are not standing still.
Also let's see the costs of these 'new' engines and transmissions. How much time and money has Honda spent in development? If the auto/manual and hybrid bits come from the stillborn HSV then it makes sense to use what they have learned in other products. As far as the CVT, what kind of cost did it take to develop and is it more costly to produce than a traditional auto slush bucket? If it costs more does the customer benefit from some significant improvement in fuel economy.
I guess where I am going is that to me it is all about the semantics of how Honda is using the word 'new' and 'class leading'. Honda has been lagging in technology under the hood and in the cabin for some time now and I have increasing doubts if they have been spending on the things that will put them in a competitive advantage or just put them back in the game.
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I will address several of your posts in this one, but I think you are being a tad bit sensational. God knows I am pissed off that Honda won't let us have any true Honda enthusiast engines, but IMO, you are focusing a bit too much on marketing numbers here.
1) You are lambasting Honda for apparently re-using blocks. First, you don't know with any certainty that they are actually doing that. That said, even if they are, the majority of the difference (and power, economy, emissions, etc) is in the head. The block plays a large role in friction, balance and NVH etc, but it isn't really the main component in making power. That said, Honda's K series blocks, R series blocks, L series blocks are already pretty cutting edge. They have split crankcases, good metalurgy, forged cranks, tons of friction reduction technology, and are unquestionably among the smoothest and most refined bottom ends in the world. This has become even more apparent to me recently with the drive of several other 4 bangers from several other brands. In many cases, Honda's fours still approach NVH characteristics of some sixes. Also, there isn't a competitor on the planet that has block technology that is well beyond where Honda is. At any price point. The only complaint I could muster against most of Honda's engines is the relatively small bore and longer stroke lengths. They do it for very specific reasons, and they have been for decades. However, I don't like that it makes high revs harder, but clearly, that is becoming a non-issue.
As for the J series, it is more of the same. Very much among the most refined engines in its class. The only other engine at anywhere near the price point that comes close is the 1GR-FE in the Camry. But again, this is an example of Toyota going on 10 years of commitment to this engine, and god knows the VQ35 in the Altima has been around long time. Most of the competitors are offering turbo fours that won't even touch the J series in refinement and power delivery. The only technology I can think that the J series doesn't really have is the split crankcase, as it still uses seperate bearing caps for the crank. However, it has proven to not be a major issue.
As for the heads, they are all new, so to claim otherwise is just silly. I am a little disappointed that they didn't add DOHC and cam phasing on both sides, but that also has some advantages in terms of weight and packaging. Besides, the other companies aren't exactly vaulting forward with HP in this category anyway, and if the J series can add a few basic technologies and remain competitive in all areas, then why not? What I want is an overall package, not a different block for the sake of saying it has a different block. If they fix the VCM compromises (which is exactly what the new version is supposed to do) there will be literally zero issues with this engine. Coupled to a highly intelligent 6AT, in a lighter car, I don't think the V6 will need to make any excuses for itself.
The other question you should ask yourself is "what have the competitors had to do to get a leg up on Honda?" If you look at it realistically, most of them had to add DI just to get on par with Honda. They are still near the top of the class with 5 year old 4 bangers that have a lot less technology than the competition, and yet, they didn't have to add the goodies to be competitive. That means that when they finally do add the "goodies" they will be right back on top.
2) Mullaly mortgaged everything less because he could see it coming and more because Ford had no cash left. He knew he was going to need real cash to get product development going in the right direction, and he knew they had relatively bad credit. He may have had some suspicions about it, but it is unlikely he had some magic crystal ball.
As for talking smack in the future, Honda isn't exactly alone. But Honda is very matter-of-fact about what they are doing, and they don't do it like GM and Hyundai do where they claim victory before it actually happens. To be perfectly honest, I think the new Accord powertrains are going to send everyone else scrambling again, simply because they just haven't leveraged a lot of the stuff everyone else mostly has.
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