|
|
|
|
 |
DrWhiner
 |
|
It's so confusing.
What do you mean by 'the racing version of' ASCC???
|
sadlerau
|
|
WingZ wrote:
What's funny is the V6 hybrid NSX is supposed to be between $120-130k. That seems high to me since it's sharing so much of it's tech but since no specs are really known besides V6 and E SHAWD just have to wait and see.
|
If it does come in that cheap I'll be surprised. It may share "tech" with the forth-coming RL, but it will have to have serious development of it's own to meet power to weight targets hinted at by Honda "brass".
If it's built with the same "attention to detail" and quality as the original NSX it will be worth every cent, not that I would expect the general motoring masses to understand that point!
As you say, we will just have to wait and see...........
|
330R
|
|
WingZ wrote:
The V10 ASCC was supposed to be around $150k and it was believed that it wouldn't sell at that price but Ito just didn't want the car as he called the LFA a "dinosaur" when Toyota said "cyke" and showed up at the Tokyo auto show with it while he showed up with the CRZ LOL
|
It's funny the way you tell it :)
btw I hope that's "psyche!"
|
sadlerau
|
|
DrWhiner wrote:
It's so confusing.
What do you mean by 'the racing version of' ASCC???
|
The HSV race car is a "silhouette" version of the road going new "halo" car Honda/Acura was developing before the "Global Financial Crisis" hit. The "halo" car, or NSX successor as Honda called it, was based on the ASCC concept car first shown in 2007.
And you though you were confused before :)
|
WingZ
|
|
330R wrote:
WingZ wrote:
The V10 ASCC was supposed to be around $150k and it was believed that it wouldn't sell at that price but Ito just didn't want the car as he called the LFA a "dinosaur" when Toyota said "cyke" and showed up at the Tokyo auto show with it while he showed up with the CRZ LOL
|
It's funny the way you tell it :)
btw I hope that's "psyche!"
|
That's because it's such a sad funny story LOL ouch! Yes it was "psyche!".
The NSX insiders in Honda pulled off the miraculous in getting the NSX hybrid a green light to production. Not to mention Honda was being bad mouthed so much by the press. This along with the racing success of the HSV ( ironically ) also contributed to helping him (Ito) have not much choice but answer the call.
|
CarPhreakD
|
|
WingZ wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Two things.
The HSV was NEVER going to have the race motor it uses in SuperGT as a road engine. It was to have a V10, and rumour had it, it would have a version of the V8 that was going to be used in the Legend, never a race motor that reved to 10,000rpm.
Secondly it's price was never announced so saying it was going to cost as much as a Lexus LF-A is that, simply speculation,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
|
You guys do know that the HSV is the racing version of the ASCC that so many Honda people hated right??
It was fully developed and then ITO pulled the plug on Fuqui's baby.
The HSC was technically the the next gen NSX that was aborted because in 03 when they sent the prototype out it would've had "only" 350+ hp. The hp wars were out with earnest and Fuqui decided that Honda could compete with a big front engine car.
The ASCC was met with quite a bit of hostility from Honda purists as mag's were calling it the next NSX. Honda soldered on with it though and there is a clip of it on the Ring doing testing. Awesome sound and a shame it was aborted.
Since the NSX could no longer qualify for racing Honda pulled a trick exception saying the ASCC was "production ready" but not going into production. They changed the name to HSV010 and the requirement in the racing series was a V8 so that's what it got.
The V10 ASCC was supposed to be around $150k and it was believed that it wouldn't sell at that price but Ito just didn't want the car as he called the LFA a "dinosaur" when Toyota said "cyke" and showed up at the Tokyo auto show with it while he showed up with the CRZ LOL
What's funny is the V6 hybrid NSX is supposed to be between $120-130k. That seems high to me since it's sharing so much of it's tech but since no specs are really known besides V6 and E SHAWD just have to wait and see.
|
What do you mean sharing "so much of its tech"? The eSH-AWD system is already a completely different concept.
|
RocketRon
|
|
I think Wing-Z means that the eSH-AWD will be shared with other Honda models.
My head is saying the NSX 2.0 will have eSH-AWD (150HP) combined with the new earth dreams 3.7L V6 330HP (10% output increase from the previous version). That 480HP total would equate to Motortrend's prediction.
But my heart wants an higher revving version of that engine. Perhaps 100HP/L for a total of 520HP.
And my you know what wants a detuned version HR10EG racing engine!
|
Chocs
|
|
WingZ wrote:
It was fully developed and then ITO pulled the plug on Fuqui's baby.
|
I thought it was Fukui who pulled the plug.
Acura NSX Canceled Due To CarpocalypseHonda Chairman Takeo Fukui has announced the cancellation of the V10-powered Acura NSX effective immediately as a result of the Carpocalypse and a desire to focus on green technologies.
Honda Officially Cancels Development of V10-Powered NSX Successor
To the bitter disappointment of sports car fans, the latest victim of the global economic recession is the next-generation Honda / Acura NSX supercar which has been canned. The announcement was made today by Honda CEO Takeo Fukui at his end-of-year speech. "The development of the NSX successor model equipped with V10 engine will be cancelled," said Takeo Fukui.
It also seems like some people blame Ito for the Crosstour and ZDX when they were being developed before his time as CEO. Poor guy.
|
P54
|
|
Chocs wrote:
WingZ wrote:
It was fully developed and then ITO pulled the plug on Fuqui's baby.
|
I thought it was Fukui who pulled the plug.
Acura NSX Canceled Due To CarpocalypseHonda Chairman Takeo Fukui has announced the cancellation of the V10-powered Acura NSX effective immediately as a result of the Carpocalypse and a desire to focus on green technologies.
Honda Officially Cancels Development of V10-Powered NSX Successor
To the bitter disappointment of sports car fans, the latest victim of the global economic recession is the next-generation Honda / Acura NSX supercar which has been canned. The announcement was made today by Honda CEO Takeo Fukui at his end-of-year speech. "The development of the NSX successor model equipped with V10 engine will be cancelled," said Takeo Fukui.
It also seems like some people blame Ito for the Crosstour and ZDX when they were being developed before his time as CEO. Poor guy.
|
Some people on this forum seem to blame Ito for everything wrong with Honda. They also blame him for the CR-Z, also developed before his time. Instead recognize that Ito was behind the NSX and MDX and the new NSX to be.
Besides Honda is not run like a one-man show. They also have a board. The President announces what the board has agreed upon.
|
JeffX
|
|
P54 wrote:
Chocs wrote:
WingZ wrote:
It was fully developed and then ITO pulled the plug on Fuqui's baby.
|
I thought it was Fukui who pulled the plug.
Acura NSX Canceled Due To CarpocalypseHonda Chairman Takeo Fukui has announced the cancellation of the V10-powered Acura NSX effective immediately as a result of the Carpocalypse and a desire to focus on green technologies.
Honda Officially Cancels Development of V10-Powered NSX Successor
To the bitter disappointment of sports car fans, the latest victim of the global economic recession is the next-generation Honda / Acura NSX supercar which has been canned. The announcement was made today by Honda CEO Takeo Fukui at his end-of-year speech. "The development of the NSX successor model equipped with V10 engine will be cancelled," said Takeo Fukui.
It also seems like some people blame Ito for the Crosstour and ZDX when they were being developed before his time as CEO. Poor guy.
|
Some people on this forum seem to blame Ito for everything wrong with Honda. They also blame him for the CR-Z, also developed before his time. Instead recognize that Ito was behind the NSX and MDX and the new NSX to be.
Besides Honda is not run like a one-man show. They also have a board. The President announces what the board has agreed upon.
|
I know he's not responsible for some of what we're facing but I met him face to face in 2009 and the stuff he was saying did not make a good impression on me nor give me good feelings about Honda's immediate future. I feel like he was overreacting to the data that was in front of him, slashing all sorts of stuff, saying stuff like "those days are behind us" (referring to the "fun" vehicles), painting an extremely bleak picture for the future of "fun" models, basically extinguishing any thought or hope for the return of such models in the future. It's amazing how much his tune had changed by the 2011 Tokyo Show but by that time he had squandered so much valuable mindshare for Honda I think it will take a long time to repair the damage. His slashing had a direct impact on many of the products that are just hitting the road today, and we're already seeing how costly that line of thought was for the 2012 Civic - it's getting an unprecedented MMC just 1 year into the product cycle.
The NSX is a good start but it should be much further along in development than it is. They basically just got started in earnest in the last 6 months. People are ready to buy the car RIGHT NOW. I get questions all the time from acquaintances and when I tell them it will probably be a 2015 model or a 2014 if we're lucky, you can see that interest basically vanish.
Honda needs to get the engineering machine CRANKING again and get these Earth Dreams powertrains out with world-class economy AND performance numbers. The Honda of the past never compromised those things, but compromise has been an alarmingly increasing component of the typical Honda product for some time now. Light the damned wick and dazzle us again.
|
danielgr
|
|
Jeff wrote:
P54 wrote:
Chocs wrote:
WingZ wrote:
It was fully developed and then ITO pulled the plug on Fuqui's baby.
|
I thought it was Fukui who pulled the plug.
Acura NSX Canceled Due To CarpocalypseHonda Chairman Takeo Fukui has announced the cancellation of the V10-powered Acura NSX effective immediately as a result of the Carpocalypse and a desire to focus on green technologies.
Honda Officially Cancels Development of V10-Powered NSX Successor
To the bitter disappointment of sports car fans, the latest victim of the global economic recession is the next-generation Honda / Acura NSX supercar which has been canned. The announcement was made today by Honda CEO Takeo Fukui at his end-of-year speech. "The development of the NSX successor model equipped with V10 engine will be cancelled," said Takeo Fukui.
It also seems like some people blame Ito for the Crosstour and ZDX when they were being developed before his time as CEO. Poor guy.
|
Besides Honda is not run like a one-man show. They also have a board. The President announces what the board has agreed upon.
|
I know he's not responsible for some of what we're facing but I met him face to face in 2009 and the stuff he was saying did not make a good impression on me nor give me good feelings about Honda's immediate future. I feel like he was overreacting to the data that was in front of him, slashing all sorts of stuff, saying stuff like "those days are behind us" (referring to the "fun" vehicles), painting an extremely bleak picture for the future of "fun" models, basically extinguishing any thought or hope for the return of such models in the future. It's amazing how much his tune had changed by the 2011 Tokyo Show but by that time he had squandered so much valuable mindshare for Honda I think it will take a long time to repair the damage. His slashing had a direct impact on many of the products that are just hitting the road today, and we're already seeing how costly that line of thought was for the 2012 Civic - it's getting an unprecedented MMC just 1 year into the product cycle.
The NSX is a good start but it should be much further along in development than it is. They basically just got started in earnest in the last 6 months. People are ready to buy the car RIGHT NOW. I get questions all the time from acquaintances and when I tell them it will probably be a 2015 model or a 2014 if we're lucky, you can see that interest basically vanish.
Honda needs to get the engineering machine CRANKING again and get these Earth Dreams powertrains out with world-class economy AND performance numbers. The Honda of the past never compromised those things, but compromise has been an alarmingly increasing component of the typical Honda product for some time now. Light the damned wick and dazzle us again.
|
He said it pretty clear then, and as I've written so many times already, he has done nothing but to keep on his words (which is rare in nowadays extremely challenging and ever-changing market). In short Ito said back in 2009 on his first important public appearance (the one you recall face to face):
1) Honda needs 1st to get back on a solid financial track before thinking about anything else.
2) Emphasis would be put on fuel economy, relying not only on hybrids but also on a holistic approach including improvements in traditional powertrains, weight reductions, transmissions, etc.
3) He'd love to bring back sports cars, and they will come when the money is back.
4) When those come they won't be anything like those in the past, and will always aim at both performance and environmental friendliness.
2nd: Yes, Ito is to "thank" for the CR-Z, because that was a project he pushed hard before becoming CEO. It may not be perfect, but it embodies the values of future "fun-to-drive" Hondas and it's a pretty much unique car that only Honda could make and every single one of its owners love.
|
DCR
|
|
|
...and here we go.
|
superchg2
|
|
danielgr wrote:
I trully believe your memory distorts reality Jeff, 'cause I still have Ito's 2009 interview recorded by you in in my desktop, and there is nothing like what you are saying here.
|
danielgr, diplomacy is definitely not your strong suit!
|
CR-V9
|
|
+++1
DCR wrote:
...and here we go.
....... and here comes another one.
|
|
Chocs
|
|
DCR wrote:
...and here we go.
|
My bad. Maybe I shouldn't have bothered with that Fukui-Ito thing. LOL
|
WongKN
|
|
Well, whatever the actual reality is, I for one appreciates Fukui-san for it was at the fateful meeting with him at the Sepang circuit that I had a chance to tell him that we Honda fans really want the Type-R. Later, I was told by the then Honda Malaysia CEO Seiji Kuraishi that when Fukui mentioned what I told him, he immediately grabbed the chance and asked Fukui if he can be allowed to deliver on the request, to which Fukui said 'yes'.
That was instrumental to us getting the FD2R, the only country outside of Japan to officially get the car. Before that -and after that- it was always "Type-R is for Japan only, you are not allowed to get it". But because of what Fukui said to Kuraishi, he could literally force Honda R&D to give him the FD2R. Later I understood from ex-HM employees who were able to talk more openly, that he wasn't very popular with Honda R&D due to his 'pushiness' with getting the FD2R.
Credit where it is due.
|
DrWhiner
|
|
|
Diplomacy?? Where can I find it at TOV???
|
RocketRon
|
|
|
Can anyone use their diplomatic skills to convince Ito that an Honda car equipped with the HR10EG engine will sell. 100% . I'll give my left nut for such a car, perhaps even both :)
|
dootndo2
|
|
The CRZ may be fun do drive, but seriously? 0-60 in 8.8 seconds? That is not new or innovative. Average MPG 35-37? Also not innovative. Plastic backseat and then tell us that it is a two seater? Really?
I love the look of the CRZ. The innovation for this model under the metal is poor at best. Can it be fun to drive? Perhaps. Do I think it's awesome that it is offered with a 6MT? Absolutely.
There are still some basic no-no's with the CRZ. I'd love to get one despite the shortcomings, but the worst is that I couldn't even put my dog in the back. I think this itself is worse than the low roofline on the rear doors of the ZDX.
With direct regards to the Honda direction, I am still unclear how bringing a larger variety of models and variants to market is a losing proposition. How about an S1000? A convertible, or a Targa? How about a Civic hatchback? A 2 door Honda Fit? A 5 passenger SUV that has true utility? A 2 door Honda pickup (think Tacoma)? How about a Honda Prelude with 3.7 and rear wheel drive? What about that Honda mini car that they sell in India?
How about diesel? What about a diesel hybrid? How about an Insight that kicks the crap out of that GD Prius?
Do I need to go on?
There are so many options and I feel like they have but us on a diet of "bread and butter" models and there is no thrill. Honda Accord Coupe V6 6MT is awesome. Still would like more options.
/rant
dootndo2
|
TonyEX
|
|
DrWhiner wrote:
Diplomacy?? Where can I find it at TOV???
|
Truly sir... I would remind you to express intelligence when posting in these forums but it must be obvious by now why this is so and I applaud you because it is obvious that you are simply expressing yourself at the best level of your mental capacity.
There you go.
|
JeffX
|
|
danielgr wrote:
Jeff wrote:
P54 wrote:
Chocs wrote:
WingZ wrote:
It was fully developed and then ITO pulled the plug on Fuqui's baby.
|
I thought it was Fukui who pulled the plug.
Acura NSX Canceled Due To CarpocalypseHonda Chairman Takeo Fukui has announced the cancellation of the V10-powered Acura NSX effective immediately as a result of the Carpocalypse and a desire to focus on green technologies.
Honda Officially Cancels Development of V10-Powered NSX Successor
To the bitter disappointment of sports car fans, the latest victim of the global economic recession is the next-generation Honda / Acura NSX supercar which has been canned. The announcement was made today by Honda CEO Takeo Fukui at his end-of-year speech. "The development of the NSX successor model equipped with V10 engine will be cancelled," said Takeo Fukui.
It also seems like some people blame Ito for the Crosstour and ZDX when they were being developed before his time as CEO. Poor guy.
|
Besides Honda is not run like a one-man show. They also have a board. The President announces what the board has agreed upon.
|
I know he's not responsible for some of what we're facing but I met him face to face in 2009 and the stuff he was saying did not make a good impression on me nor give me good feelings about Honda's immediate future. I feel like he was overreacting to the data that was in front of him, slashing all sorts of stuff, saying stuff like "those days are behind us" (referring to the "fun" vehicles), painting an extremely bleak picture for the future of "fun" models, basically extinguishing any thought or hope for the return of such models in the future. It's amazing how much his tune had changed by the 2011 Tokyo Show but by that time he had squandered so much valuable mindshare for Honda I think it will take a long time to repair the damage. His slashing had a direct impact on many of the products that are just hitting the road today, and we're already seeing how costly that line of thought was for the 2012 Civic - it's getting an unprecedented MMC just 1 year into the product cycle.
The NSX is a good start but it should be much further along in development than it is. They basically just got started in earnest in the last 6 months. People are ready to buy the car RIGHT NOW. I get questions all the time from acquaintances and when I tell them it will probably be a 2015 model or a 2014 if we're lucky, you can see that interest basically vanish.
Honda needs to get the engineering machine CRANKING again and get these Earth Dreams powertrains out with world-class economy AND performance numbers. The Honda of the past never compromised those things, but compromise has been an alarmingly increasing component of the typical Honda product for some time now. Light the damned wick and dazzle us again.
|
He said it pretty clear then, and as I've written so many times already, he has done nothing but to keep on his words (which is rare in nowadays extremely challenging and ever-changing market). In short Ito said back in 2009 on his first important public appearance (the one you recall face to face):
1) Honda needs 1st to get back on a solid financial track before thinking about anything else.
2) Emphasis would be put on fuel economy, relying not only on hybrids but also on a holistic approach including improvements in traditional powertrains, weight reductions, transmissions, etc.
3) He'd love to bring back sports cars, and they will come when the money is back.
4) When those come they won't be anything like those in the past, and will always aim at both performance and environmental friendliness.
2nd: Yes, Ito is to "thank" for the CR-Z, because that was a project he pushed hard before becoming CEO. It may not be perfect, but it embodies the values of future "fun-to-drive" Hondas and it's a pretty much unique car that only Honda could make and every single one of its owners love.
|
I understand the reasoning for pulling back but I don't agree with the way he went about it by tossing out the baby with the bath water. At the time I thought Ito was overreacting and I worried very much about the impact to Honda's near term product mix. Unfortunately many of the concerns I held at the time have been realized. I think he completely screwed up the 2012 Civic - it's like he has no clue what got Honda where they were.
There has been a long string of disappointing, misguided products, dotted with precious few bright spots. Yes, not all of these were Ito's fault but from what I have seen he has done very little to fix these issues in his nearly 3 years at the helm and with the Civic disaster he has demonstrated the ability to fuck up something that should have been very good. The CR-Z could have been MUCH, MUCH better. It's not bad and hits the mark for some people (not many in North America), but why settle for "ok" when we've never done so in the past?
Ito panicked and overreacted and the products have suffered immensely. Even worse, Honda's brand image has taken a tremendous shot across the bow. Ito's vision of "sports cars" (a la CR-Z) just won't fly here in North America or most "Western" markets, at least not for a long while. The NSX has a huge bar to clear.
Fortunately the 2012 CR-V didn't suffer too much (though I think it's at best a B+ effort). The 2013 Accord absolutely needs to be world class. I'm running out of patience with this guy.
|
NealX
|
|
|
^So it appears that Jeff has the gift of "time travel" as well.
|
TonyEX
|
|
Jeff wrote:
...
I understand the reasoning for pulling back but I don't agree with the way he went about it by tossing out the baby with the bath water. At the time I thought Ito was overreacting and I worried very much about the impact to Honda's near term product mix. Unfortunately many of the concerns I held at the time have been realized. I think he completely screwed up the 2012 Civic - it's like he has no clue what got Honda where they were.
There has been a long string of disappointing, misguided products, dotted with precious few bright spots. Yes, not all of these were Ito's fault but from what I have seen he has done very little to fix these issues in his nearly 3 years at the helm and with the Civic disaster he has demonstrated the ability to fuck up something that should have been very good. The CR-Z could have been MUCH, MUCH better. It's not bad and hits the mark for some people (not many in North America), but why settle for "ok" when we've never done so in the past?
Ito panicked and overreacted and the products have suffered immensely. Even worse, Honda's brand image has taken a tremendous shot across the bow. Ito's vision of "sports cars" (a la CR-Z) just won't fly here in North America or most "Western" markets, at least not for a long while. The NSX has a huge bar to clear.
Fortunately the 2012 CR-V didn't suffer too much (though I think it's at best a B+ effort). The 2013 Accord absolutely needs to be world class. I'm running out of patience with this guy.
|
Well, on the one hand AHM was spending money like a drunken sailor on niche stuff that almost no hope of a decent ROI ( if any ). So it takes time to turn a large ship around.
Mostly the issue was one of pathetically poor design decisions. Power Plenum, the Crosstour, the ZDX... designs different for the sake of being different. Not elegant, not timeless. Weird at best, flat out ugly at worst.
The interior of the '12 Civic... is a marketing mistake.. yet it does NOT outgas and it will last as long as any other. It is not an engineering mistake.
The marketing of the ILX... well... crappy marketing seems to be a hallmark of HMC/AHM and Ito is part of the machine. I was hoping that someone like Mendell could do something about it but so far that has gone nowhere.
'12 CRV... I disagree. I think it's an A. It's a very well selling vehicle, smack in the middle of its market niche and changing it tremendously would have risked another Power Penum fiasco.
Look at the bright sides though... The RDX seems to be a very good design and sells very well.
The "mistakes" with the '12 Civic are easy to redo. They are not fundamental to the platform ( OK.. even if the back does look like a Corolla sometimes..).
Even the CR-Z could be fixed readily by shoehorning an R20 or an ED20 into it.
All in all, the "mistakes" with the current line up are not fundamental, but in most cases things that can be updated in due time.
The mistakes in marketing also need addressing. I think Ito did not address that much since he was likely up to his armpits with the Credit Crunch and the Fascist Obama EPA. Which, btw, is the wild card.
We agree on the Accord. I do like the current one but I think that something a bit more "compact" looking like and Audi will do best. And even if the ED motors are just head technology, the fact is that 190bhp and 160 ft/lbs out of a 2.4 liter engine with REAL WORLD mileage in the mid 30s for a 3200 lb sedan is a very good package.
The issue is that we went overnight from irrational exuberance to rational pessimism. And HMC really overreacted.
Indeed, the one thing I'm surprised you all don't complain about is the lack of MTs across the range. No more Civic EX MT, Accord EX MT... or Fit Sport MT NAVI... The shrinking of trim levels back in mid 09 was perhaps understandable in the knee jerk reaction to save money, but it should have been undone by '11.
|
Torque
|
|
Jeff,
Do you know of any actual bright spots we could look forward to in the near future? Lately, it has been duds and/or cars that miss the mark in this market. I'm at the end of my rope here as I need to get a second car soon. As it is, Honda just isn't cutting it anymore.
|
WingZ
|
|
Chocs wrote:
WingZ wrote:
It was fully developed and then ITO pulled the plug on Fuqui's baby.
|
I thought it was Fukui who pulled the plug.
Acura NSX Canceled Due To CarpocalypseHonda Chairman Takeo Fukui has announced the cancellation of the V10-powered Acura NSX effective immediately as a result of the Carpocalypse and a desire to focus on green technologies.
Honda Officially Cancels Development of V10-Powered NSX Successor
To the bitter disappointment of sports car fans, the latest victim of the global economic recession is the next-generation Honda / Acura NSX supercar which has been canned. The announcement was made today by Honda CEO Takeo Fukui at his end-of-year speech. "The development of the NSX successor model equipped with V10 engine will be cancelled," said Takeo Fukui.
It also seems like some people blame Ito for the Crosstour and ZDX when they were being developed before his time as CEO. Poor guy.
|
No it was Ito and he confirmed it in an interview at the Tokyo salon where the LFA showed up
Following our time visiting this week's Tokyo Motor Show, we had the opportunity to sit down for a small group interview at Honda's world headquarters with freshly-minted CEO Takanobu Ito, who took over the reigns at Honda from Takeo Fukui just this past June. Among the questions posed to Ito-san was "When will Americans see another performance car from Honda?" Honda has a tradition of performance vehicles and motorsports participation that goes back to the earliest days of the company. Ito himself was the chief body engineer on the original NSX and was pivotal in the development of its lightweight aluminum structure and body.
Given his role in one of the more unique aspects of the NSX, it was interesting that Ito acknowledged that he personally made the decision to pull the plug last year on the new car that was being developed as a successor to the NSX. Ito actually sounded as though he was channeling Colin Chapman in explaining the philosophy of using low mass to achieve a good power to weight ratio on the NSX. That approach allowed Honda to create a car that was "easy to drive, good performance and at the same time it enjoyed very good fuel economy."
However, reaching those goals required a significant investment in new manufacturing technology.
Source : http://www.autoblog.com/ (10/22/2009
http://www.fadaweb.com/news_details.asp?id=n121977
I hope this doesn't cause the thread page to go awry. Ito didn't even want a hybrid NSX so again kudos to the Honda internals who didn't give up and found a way!
|
JeffX
|
|
Torque wrote:
Jeff,
Do you know of any actual bright spots we could look forward to in the near future? Lately, it has been duds and/or cars that miss the mark in this market. I'm at the end of my rope here as I need to get a second car soon. As it is, Honda just isn't cutting it anymore.
|
I am cautiously optimistic about the upcoming Accord. It sounds like they've gone the right direction on a few decisions (making it a little more compact, lighter, more efficient, 6MTs on 4- and 6-cyl models). I am also expecting the new MDX and TLs to be pretty good. The MDX could just be an incremental improvement and end up being a fantastic automobile. The TL has a *lot* more room for improvement. It's too heavy, inefficiently packaged, and suffers from poor styling proportions. The powertrains need some attention as well. I was driving a 2012 TL loaner car from the dealer a few weeks ago and I was a little bit surprised by how "herky jerky" the drive was compared to our TSX.
Unlike TonyE, I don't think fixing the '13 Civic will be as simple as an interior upgrade. I feel that its issues are more fundamental, but the interior upgrade will go a fair way to improving it to "good enough" for most people.
|
TonyEX
|
|
Torque wrote:
Jeff,
Do you know of any actual bright spots we could look forward to in the near future? Lately, it has been duds and/or cars that miss the mark in this market. I'm at the end of my rope here as I need to get a second car soon. As it is, Honda just isn't cutting it anymore.
|
TSX wagon with tech.
|
TonyEX
|
|
Jeff wrote:
Torque wrote:
Jeff,
Do you know of any actual bright spots we could look forward to in the near future? Lately, it has been duds and/or cars that miss the mark in this market. I'm at the end of my rope here as I need to get a second car soon. As it is, Honda just isn't cutting it anymore.
|
I am cautiously optimistic about the upcoming Accord. It sounds like they've gone the right direction on a few decisions (making it a little more compact, lighter, more efficient, 6MTs on 4- and 6-cyl models). I am also expecting the new MDX and TLs to be pretty good. The MDX could just be an incremental improvement and end up being a fantastic automobile. The TL has a *lot* more room for improvement. It's too heavy, inefficiently packaged, and suffers from poor styling proportions. The powertrains need some attention as well. I was driving a 2012 TL loaner car from the dealer a few weeks ago and I was a little bit surprised by how "herky jerky" the drive was compared to our TSX.
Unlike TonyE, I don't think fixing the '13 Civic will be as simple as an interior upgrade. I feel that its issues are more fundamental, but the interior upgrade will go a fair way to improving it to "good enough" for most people.
|
Aaah, but you don't say what...
IMHO, the current Civic just needs adjusting the interior.. it's the ILX that needs to step up first.
The ILX will have to be the one that flexes out the goodies..
ILX-S High Winding 2.2 liter, MT6, LSD, Navi, you got it.
The ILX R20 needs to be reexamined as well. I think it will have to do ED20 first, with MT6 and AT6
Then you have the ILX 2.4 which is the natural successor to the first gen TSX. That one should be offered with an AT6SS and Navi.
The 8th gen Civic bridged the gap to the RSX/Integra and now needs to go back a bit. Shrink from the limelight and let the Acura shine again. So long as the ILX exists, you will never see the 8th gen Civic.
In fact, I think the current 9th gen Si with LSD is still better than it will be in the future. If AHM is smart, they will take the Civic down to an ED13 for the base car, ED16 for the EX and ED20 for the Si.
I also think that the LSD will be bye bye in the Civic.
|
Torque
|
|
Jeff wrote:
Torque wrote:
Jeff,
Do you know of any actual bright spots we could look forward to in the near future? Lately, it has been duds and/or cars that miss the mark in this market. I'm at the end of my rope here as I need to get a second car soon. As it is, Honda just isn't cutting it anymore.
|
I am cautiously optimistic about the upcoming Accord. It sounds like they've gone the right direction on a few decisions (making it a little more compact, lighter, more efficient, 6MTs on 4- and 6-cyl models). I am also expecting the new MDX and TLs to be pretty good. The MDX could just be an incremental improvement and end up being a fantastic automobile. The TL has a *lot* more room for improvement. It's too heavy, inefficiently packaged, and suffers from poor styling proportions. The powertrains need some attention as well. I was driving a 2012 TL loaner car from the dealer a few weeks ago and I was a little bit surprised by how "herky jerky" the drive was compared to our TSX.
Unlike TonyE, I don't think fixing the '13 Civic will be as simple as an interior upgrade. I feel that its issues are more fundamental, but the interior upgrade will go a fair way to improving it to "good enough" for most people.
|
Jeff, thanks for the honest answers. Here's my train of thought so far as I've already taken a look at 4 different cars in the Honda/Acura stable. This is the breakdown:
Fit: I love this car. It is the most versatile and most Honda like car in the lineup today. Flexible seating, interior ergonomics, low price point, and great fuel efficiency. My only con is the engine. It is too low on power at the bottom end and tops out pretty quickly. I did a road trip from Washington, DC to Pittsburgh and the car with a full load had a hard time pulling off of the on ramp getting up to highway speed. My only negative. If this had a version of the 2.0 engine with 160 hp I would buy the car immediately.
Civic: Won't beat a dead horse but after taking one out, I just couldn't get over all the negatives. We know what they are so I won't repeat them. I checked out both the EX and the Si.
TSX: I had the 4 cylinder version for three weeks while my car was in the shop. I like it but something is missing that I can't quite put my finger on. The steering felt too soft, suspension a bit floaty. The interior appointments and ergonomics were top notch though for the price point. Dealership is always sending me emails about special pricing for their customer loyalty program. The price is very, very reasonable. The OTD price they are offering me almost made me pull the trigger earlier this year. The TSX made my normally horrible commute almost bearable and that is saying a lot for DC traffic.
TL: Same experience as you so no need to repeat it again. I did feel like the car drove heavy.
TonyE, I did check out the TSX wagon in Vortex Blue Pearl. Great car, but I'm not sure I am a wagon guy.
I am holding out for news about the Accord. Like you, I am going to be cautiously optimistic until real news filters out. That it will be more compact, have the ED (still can't get over that goofy name) engines in it and be more efficient are at least something to hold out some hope for. I am also not keeping my shopping list confined to Honda/Acura. The best car that meets my needs gets my money. I have a pretty wide price range from the 20s to the mid 30s so it will be interesting to see who I wind up buying from this time around.
|
Double J
|
|
TonyE wrote:
The mistakes in marketing also need addressing. I think Ito did not address that much since he was likely up to his armpits with the Credit Crunch and the Fascist Obama EPA. Which, btw, is the wild card.
|
I see what you did there...I guess you are not aware that Fascist's are anti-Liberal. btw the EPA was started by a Republican right? It seems that every manufacturer is still able to make sports cars and high horsepower engines while keeping emissions in check. I believe one of the points of this thread is Honda's lack of commitment in this regard.
|
|
|
| |
|
| Thread Page - 1 [2] 3 4 |
| |
|
![[home]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/home.gif){kind=small}
![[rumors and news]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/rumors.gif){kind=small}
![[model release matrix]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/newmodelreleasematrix.gif){kind=small}
![[dealer network]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/dealernet.gif){kind=small}
![[desktop calendar]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/calendar.gif){kind=small}
![[exhaust notes]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/exhaust.gif){kind=small}
![[tov forums]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/forums.gif){kind=small}
![[links]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/links.gif){kind=small}
![[search]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/search.gif){kind=small}
![[sponsors]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/sponsors.gif){kind=small}
![[garage]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/garage.gif){kind=small}
![[login]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/login.gif){kind=small}
