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Powered by Honda
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BachelorFrog wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
this and E92 M3 are the greatest things to drive ever! fun fun fun
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You have to drive the E46, its the best M yet.
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Yeah I skipped E46 on purpose...not a fan.
E92 is like having 2 S2000 Engines stuck together to make 1 big S2000 engine. woooooooooooo
8300rpm redline...
Also, the V8 is 15kg lighter then i6 in the E46.
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330R
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Automotive News
BMW has overtaken Toyota as the world's most valuable automotive brand, an annual ranking of the world's top brands shows.
Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen and Audi improved their brand value, according to the BrandZ Top 100 Most Valuable Global Brands study released by market research company Millward Brown today.
Peter Walshe, Millward Brown global brand director, said that BMW has been able to effectively communicate what sets it apart from other carmakers, while backing up its message with a "very decent product."
"As one of the great brands in the world, BMW has been absolutely consistent in the long-term regarding what is meaningfully different about their brand, in highly competitive market places," Walshe said. |
Well there you go, ripped from the headlines.
World's most valuable car brands in $ billion; rank in top 100; % change from 2011
1. BMW $24.6 -- (23) 10
2. Toyota $21.8 -- (28) -10
3. Mercedes $16.1 -- (46) 5
4. Honda $12.7 -- (65) -11
5. Nissan $9.9 -- (81) -2
6. VW $8.5 -- (95) 15
7. Ford $7.0 -- * -5
8. Audi $4.7 -- 23
9. Hyundai $3.6 -- --
10. Lexus $3.4 -- -7
* Did not qualify for the top 100
Source: Millward Brown
TonyE is correct about brilliant marketing. BMW gets the message out their cars offer something meaningly different.
It must be really important to BMW to have that much value in the automotive market, for them to stay independent.
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FiSH-Chan
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330R wrote:
TonyE is correct about brilliant marketing. BMW gets the message out their cars offer something meaningly different. |
I must have missed it because I really don't see much meaningly different about their cars at all. I will admit I don't really follow up on BMW, but seriously I just can't see it, especially where I am, old men drive them. Sometimes old or women in their 50s.
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330R
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
I must have missed it because I really don't see much meaningly different about their cars at all. I will admit I don't really follow up on BMW, but seriously I just can't see it, especially where I am, old men drive them. Sometimes old or women in their 50s.
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Only old people drive them in your part of the world? That reminds me of Jeremy Clarkson saying only old people drive Hondas in the Britain. I don't know for a fact if either is true, though.
I suppose you'll just have to read some of the other posts in this thread, and maybe decide if the article I linked to is accurate or hot air.
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FiSH-Chan
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330R wrote:
Only old people drive them in your part of the world? That reminds me of Jeremy Clarkson saying only old people drive Hondas in the Britain. I don't know for a fact if either is true, though.
I suppose you'll just have to read some of the other posts in this thread, and maybe decide if the article I linked to is accurate or hot air.
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Mostly yes. I can maybe count like a few on one hand maybe younger ones, about in their 30s and 40s, and they 'sportify' their BMWs up but mostly they are older people, usually those big boss-types and retired pensioners and spending retirement money on cars they understand nothing about.
Most Honda drivers are the same age as I am, but I can see there are quite a few dangerously getting older owners too, although.. if my father borrows my car sometimes, does that count?
I am aware that Jeremy Clarkson says old people drive Hondas, I find it funny that the older people here (well at least those who can afford it) drives what the Mercedes that he drives at one point.
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MarkR
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
330R wrote:
TonyE is correct about brilliant marketing. BMW gets the message out their cars offer something meaningly different. |
I must have missed it because I really don't see much meaningly different about their cars at all. I will admit I don't really follow up on BMW, but seriously I just can't see it, especially where I am, old men drive them. Sometimes old or women in their 50s.
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Yeah, but isn't it only natural that old people want fast sporty cars that can be equipped from factory with super strong motors and all kinds of go-fast accessories.
Young people globally naturally wants cheap and slow cars.
Or does Honda sell 400hp+ sport sedans in other parts of the world? Not mine...
I think it's fantastic how Honda dreamers rejoice when BMW is offering a 1.6 liter underpowered car, they choose to forget that it's totally up to the buyer to order the same car with a 300hp+ engine... not so with Honda, you are stuck with your underpowered motor.
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FiSH-Chan
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MarkR wrote:
Yeah, but isn't it only natural that old people want fast sporty cars that can be equipped from factory with super strong motors and all kinds of go-fast accessories.
Young people globally naturally wants cheap and slow cars.
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I don't know about that. You probably got it the other way around? Young people want fast sporty cars but they could only get cheap slow cars. I have no idea what old people want, but I know the BMW buyers here are old. at least 60+ old old. Same with Merc drivers and most German brand drivers. That is the only thinkg I wrote and it is just observation.
Did people actually rejoice when BMW offered the 1.6 underpowered car?
MarkR wrote:
not so with Honda, you are stuck with your underpowered motor.
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Well there is that of course, but this has been discussed to death and bought back to life only to be discussed to death again..
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tnkgrl
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Let me just throw this into the pile, since I just wrote that post yesterday: http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/22/electric-motor-werks-hands-on-at-maker-faire-video/
Makes me want to buy a used 5MT E46 wagon for $7K and get it converted :)
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Nick GravesX
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330R wrote:
FiSH-Chan wrote:
I must have missed it because I really don't see much meaningly different about their cars at all. I will admit I don't really follow up on BMW, but seriously I just can't see it, especially where I am, old men drive them. Sometimes old or women in their 50s.
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Only old people drive them in your part of the world? That reminds me of Jeremy Clarkson saying only old people drive Hondas in the Britain. I don't know for a fact if either is true, though.
I suppose you'll just have to read some of the other posts in this thread, and maybe decide if the article I linked to is accurate or hot air.
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It is true; blue hair is compulsory.
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CarPhreakD
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BMW's newest powertrain shows that they have a lot of technical prowess. Unfortunately, the new 3-series isn't without its own foibles (actually to be honest I feel that most of their lineup is kind of stale). Frankly I feel that in terms of fit, finish and quality, Audi has got them beat.
But as to your question Picard, if you're Canadian I'm not sure why you think BMW "is a big deal". Every asian person in Toronto (and that's probably something like 70% of the population there at this point) goes for the Audi A4 or the Mercedes C300. The reason is pretty clear: fairly low lease rates for a chance to buy into a good badge. These are lease special cars to make you look rich, even if you're only a $40k a year millionaire.
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CivicB18
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CarPhreakD wrote:
BMW's newest powertrain shows that they have a lot of technical prowess. Unfortunately, the new 3-series isn't without its own foibles (actually to be honest I feel that most of their lineup is kind of stale). Frankly I feel that in terms of fit, finish and quality, Audi has got them beat.
But as to your question Picard, if you're Canadian I'm not sure why you think BMW "is a big deal". Every asian person in Toronto (and that's probably something like 70% of the population there at this point) goes for the Audi A4 or the Mercedes C300. The reason is pretty clear: fairly low lease rates for a chance to buy into a good badge. These are lease special cars to make you look rich, even if you're only a $40k a year millionaire.
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Please tell me how you look rich in a C300 or an A4? Sure, they may have a few extra nickels but I'm faiy sure they're not rich.
Rich is my best friends parents who just celebrated their 45th anniversary. His dad purchased his mom a new 2013 Mercedes SL550 and it's paid for! That's rich! Their guest house is 2800sqft!
Rich is my biggest landscape design clients (I'm a landscape architect) who own Urban Active Fitness and who recently built a 32,000 .....YES, THIRTY TWO THOUSAND square foot home!
~Patrick
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Powered by Honda
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CarPhreakD wrote:
BMW's newest powertrain shows that they have a lot of technical prowess. Unfortunately, the new 3-series isn't without its own foibles (actually to be honest I feel that most of their lineup is kind of stale). Frankly I feel that in terms of fit, finish and quality, Audi has got them beat.
But as to your question Picard, if you're Canadian I'm not sure why you think BMW "is a big deal". Every asian person in Toronto (and that's probably something like 70% of the population there at this point) goes for the Audi A4 or the Mercedes C300. The reason is pretty clear: fairly low lease rates for a chance to buy into a good badge. These are lease special cars to make you look rich, even if you're only a $40k a year millionaire.
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actually all my asian friends ahve 3 series.
the number 1 selling car in canada. lux seg*
remember these lease deals "328i for $328" a month that is! most accords and camrys cost more.
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Chris David
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
BMW generally makes superb engines and a very well balanced chassis.
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This is it in a nut shell. While it's true most BMW drivers don't know the difference between FWD and RWD, and will never intentionally push a car past 6/10ths, BMWs generally drive very well.
Plus people tend to listen to enthusiasts even if they suck at driving, and BMW provides plenty of cars to keep enthusiasts interested in the brand.
You can knock people who buy based on snob appeal and silly marketing, but if you like cars driving an M3/335i/M coupe etc will put a smile on your face.
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superchg2
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I think I would enjoy driving a BMW, as long as it is under warranty. One thing I don't understand is why BMW insists on run-flat tires for their cars?
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CarPhreakD
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CivicB18 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
BMW's newest powertrain shows that they have a lot of technical prowess. Unfortunately, the new 3-series isn't without its own foibles (actually to be honest I feel that most of their lineup is kind of stale). Frankly I feel that in terms of fit, finish and quality, Audi has got them beat.
But as to your question Picard, if you're Canadian I'm not sure why you think BMW "is a big deal". Every asian person in Toronto (and that's probably something like 70% of the population there at this point) goes for the Audi A4 or the Mercedes C300. The reason is pretty clear: fairly low lease rates for a chance to buy into a good badge. These are lease special cars to make you look rich, even if you're only a $40k a year millionaire.
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Please tell me how you look rich in a C300 or an A4? Sure, they may have a few extra nickels but I'm faiy sure they're not rich.
Rich is my best friends parents who just celebrated their 45th anniversary. His dad purchased his mom a new 2013 Mercedes SL550 and it's paid for! That's rich! Their guest house is 2800sqft!
Rich is my biggest landscape design clients (I'm a landscape architect) who own Urban Active Fitness and who recently built a 32,000 .....YES, THIRTY TWO THOUSAND square foot home!
~Patrick
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You obviously didn't understand the term "40K a year millionaire". For Chinese people, materialism is a key part of life and to "look rich" is an important factor. Some people spend all their money on a car and a nice looking house, but all they have inside is a mattress and miniscule TV.
superchg2 wrote:
I think I would enjoy driving a BMW, as long as it is under warranty. One thing I don't understand is why BMW insists on run-flat tires for their cars?
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I don't know either. They are constantly slagged for using them, especially with the complaints about bent rims. The only explanation I can think of is that this helps fits into some sort of regulation involving curb weights and vehicle sizing.
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FiSH-Chan
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CarPhreakD wrote:
You obviously didn't understand the term "40K a year millionaire". For Chinese people, materialism is a key part of life and to "look rich" is an important factor. Some people spend all their money on a car and a nice looking house, but all they have inside is a mattress and miniscule TV. |
I am asian, and chinese. I am bought up to think exactly the opposite to some extent. Yes, there will always be people who do that, but just putting it out here.
I think a more realistic reason is this: - If I find myself migrating to USA or Canada, I would think, WOW your cars are so cheap here, hence, buy the 'best' perceived brands. If I don't know much about cars the obvious brands are BMWs, Lexus, Audi, or whatever the heck else that looks good that I would like, within the budget, obviously. Nothing about 'looking rich', because 'looking rich' is like trying too hard. To give an idea I paid equivalent of USD30000 for my Honda City, that's because of tax, if I move to USA I would probably get something like a TSX and enjoy the hell out of it, screw what others think.
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cksi1372
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superchg2 wrote:
I think I would enjoy driving a BMW, as long as it is under warranty. One thing I don't understand is why BMW insists on run-flat tires for their cars?
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Agreed, repairs out of warranty can be pretty expensive. We have some very good independent shops here in the Philly area, but OEM parts can still be pretty expensive, so although their shop rates are good, you still get hit if you use OEM parts. I've yet to decide if I'll keep my 335 after warranty, but I only have 13k miles after 1.5 yrs, so will probably keep out of warranty. I like to hold cars as long as possible (usually) and I can do most of the simple to moderate service stuff myself anyway.
BMW uses the run-flats because they claim it is safer. I'm guessing it is some of that, but also cost and driving dynamics. They probably got a good deal from Michelin and Bridgestone to push RFT's, especially since it's on all their cars now, and save weight and design costs for nixing the spare. When my RFT's are shot, they are going bye bye...they suck and I apparently have a newer gen RFT. Hard as a rock, have one slightly bent rim from hitting a pothole and are expensive to replace. I'll either get the M3 repair kit or a spare tire for the trunk...never use it for hauling, anyway, when I replace with normal tires.
Overall, love the car though...and knock on wood, no HPFP issues to this point.
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superchg2
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cksi1372 wrote:
They probably got a good deal from Michelin and Bridgestone to push RFT's, especially since it's on all their cars now, and save weight and design costs for nixing the spare.
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Aren't the RFT's heavier than conventional radials?
This would seem to increase unsprung weight and have a negative impact on the infamous BMW handling.
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mac_powah
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The best and only answer to the question "why BMW?" is to drive one and see for yourself. I used to feel the same way until I test drove an alpine white 128i and fell in love. I ended up buying it, and I'm a huge Acura fan. It has been dead reliable after two years and every time I drive it, I'm glad I bought it. Yes, it's expensive for what I is ( I guess) but it feels so great. BMW puts the money where you don't necessarily see it. Things like the suspension, the thunk of the doors and the heft of the controls. The 12 year rust warranty is a huge plus, and I have to say that the paint quality is absolutely top notch. I also took a look under the car and was astonished with the amount of aluminum under there, and how clean it was. Yes, there could be some snobbery involved, but it is the product that keeps me happy. I'm a die hard car guy, so it's imparative that I am kept interested or I will want to buy something else - and I really can't afford to be doing that lol. I am now a believer in the Beamer.
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janicaB
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Manufacturer value indicates that the people like what you're doing. If this is so, then BMW is the most respected automotive manufacturer on earth. Among car makers, BMW recently topped the Brandz Top 100 survey of global manufacturer value. Watch for buy here, pay here, car lots. BMW was not the only high riser on the Brandz Top 100 list. A host of German automotive brands, including Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen and Audi all improved their brand value. Expansion in the Asian market – particularly in China – played a significant role in the global brand value rankings. You're sure to get a vehicle of great value if you buy BMW cars.
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gogzy
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
You obviously didn't understand the term "40K a year millionaire". For Chinese people, materialism is a key part of life and to "look rich" is an important factor. Some people spend all their money on a car and a nice looking house, but all they have inside is a mattress and miniscule TV. |
I am asian, and chinese. I am bought up to think exactly the opposite to some extent. Yes, there will always be people who do that, but just putting it out here.
I think a more realistic reason is this: - If I find myself migrating to USA or Canada, I would think, WOW your cars are so cheap here, hence, buy the 'best' perceived brands. If I don't know much about cars the obvious brands are BMWs, Lexus, Audi, or whatever the heck else that looks good that I would like, within the budget, obviously. Nothing about 'looking rich', because 'looking rich' is like trying too hard. To give an idea I paid equivalent of USD30000 for my Honda City, that's because of tax, if I move to USA I would probably get something like a TSX and enjoy the hell out of it, screw what others think.
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Chinese are... consist of many many ethnic groups, often to have its own culture and statement. I think CarPhreakD's description only fit a very specific group of ethnic Chinese.
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cksi1372
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superchg2 wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
They probably got a good deal from Michelin and Bridgestone to push RFT's, especially since it's on all their cars now, and save weight and design costs for nixing the spare.
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Aren't the RFT's heavier than conventional radials?
This would seem to increase unsprung weight and have a negative impact on the infamous BMW handling.
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That used to be the case, but now most RFT's/conventionals are usually within 5lbs of each other. My Bridgestone RFT's are 25/26 lbs front/rear and the conventional S-04 Pole Positions are 25/27 lbs...same size. Actually, after looking at multiple tires and weights, I'm shocked how close they are in weight now...and some RFT's are actually lighter by a lb or two.
I would have agreed with your second point too, except it seems not a factor now. I have heard BMW has "modified" or "adapted" their suspensions to work "better" with RFT's, but I think that might be hogwash. I think it is 95% a weight savings move for BMW and RFT's now, to improve FE, plus they can claim it provides a certain level of safety, mostly for a blowout. Again, a little dubious to me, I've been driving for years and only had one blowout and I could immediately tell something was wrong and slowed down enough where the blowout was a little unnerving, but I was still able to control the car and get to the side of the road. Technically, I guess they (BMW/tire co's.) are right enough to make the claim.
Nevertheless, they still ride like crap to me and will be replaced with conventionals when the time comes.
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CarPhreakD
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gogzy wrote:
FiSH-Chan wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
You obviously didn't understand the term "40K a year millionaire". For Chinese people, materialism is a key part of life and to "look rich" is an important factor. Some people spend all their money on a car and a nice looking house, but all they have inside is a mattress and miniscule TV. |
I am asian, and chinese. I am bought up to think exactly the opposite to some extent. Yes, there will always be people who do that, but just putting it out here.
I think a more realistic reason is this: - If I find myself migrating to USA or Canada, I would think, WOW your cars are so cheap here, hence, buy the 'best' perceived brands. If I don't know much about cars the obvious brands are BMWs, Lexus, Audi, or whatever the heck else that looks good that I would like, within the budget, obviously. Nothing about 'looking rich', because 'looking rich' is like trying too hard. To give an idea I paid equivalent of USD30000 for my Honda City, that's because of tax, if I move to USA I would probably get something like a TSX and enjoy the hell out of it, screw what others think.
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Chinese are... consist of many many ethnic groups, often to have its own culture and statement. I think CarPhreakD's description only fit a very specific group of ethnic Chinese.
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Yeah, I guess that's right. If you're from Hong Kong or Shanghai, I think the description fits. The materialistic crap still hasn't shown up in the smaller cities.
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picard
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
You obviously didn't understand the term "40K a year millionaire". For Chinese people, materialism is a key part of life and to "look rich" is an important factor. Some people spend all their money on a car and a nice looking house, but all they have inside is a mattress and miniscule TV. |
I am asian, and chinese. I am bought up to think exactly the opposite to some extent. Yes, there will always be people who do that, but just putting it out here.
I think a more realistic reason is this: - If I find myself migrating to USA or Canada, I would think, WOW your cars are so cheap here, hence, buy the 'best' perceived brands. If I don't know much about cars the obvious brands are BMWs, Lexus, Audi, or whatever the heck else that looks good that I would like, within the budget, obviously. Nothing about 'looking rich', because 'looking rich' is like trying too hard. To give an idea I paid equivalent of USD30000 for my Honda City, that's because of tax, if I move to USA I would probably get something like a TSX and enjoy the hell out of it, screw what others think.
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rich Chinese want to be chauffer in a Bentley. They have disdain for BMW.
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blackstripe77
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CarPhreakD wrote:
gogzy wrote:
FiSH-Chan wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
You obviously didn't understand the term "40K a year millionaire". For Chinese people, materialism is a key part of life and to "look rich" is an important factor. Some people spend all their money on a car and a nice looking house, but all they have inside is a mattress and miniscule TV. |
I am asian, and chinese. I am bought up to think exactly the opposite to some extent. Yes, there will always be people who do that, but just putting it out here.
I think a more realistic reason is this: - If I find myself migrating to USA or Canada, I would think, WOW your cars are so cheap here, hence, buy the 'best' perceived brands. If I don't know much about cars the obvious brands are BMWs, Lexus, Audi, or whatever the heck else that looks good that I would like, within the budget, obviously. Nothing about 'looking rich', because 'looking rich' is like trying too hard. To give an idea I paid equivalent of USD30000 for my Honda City, that's because of tax, if I move to USA I would probably get something like a TSX and enjoy the hell out of it, screw what others think.
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Chinese are... consist of many many ethnic groups, often to have its own culture and statement. I think CarPhreakD's description only fit a very specific group of ethnic Chinese.
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Yeah, I guess that's right. If you're from Hong Kong or Shanghai, I think the description fits. The materialistic crap still hasn't shown up in the smaller cities.
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+1 on FiSH-Chan's post. Agree with all parts of it.
But if you're in Hong Kong, the truly rich often ride in Alphards and Vellfires, while their kids (who feel the need to flaunt "their" wealth) constantly trade one flash exotic ride for another.
Only the middle class who want to look rich buy their German cars with tiny engines (BMW 520i BMW 118i, Mercedes C180, Audi A5 1.8). However, since the Yen has strengthened and the Euro weakened, the small-engined Germans are priced near to their Japanese counterparts, and being Chinese, who wants to pass up on a good deal? A 520i will always look more expensive than a 2.4l Accord or Lexus IS250, right? The only thing left the differentiate those who want to drive an expensive German car and those who can afford it? Those who can afford it will never buy a base model version of any car.
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gogzy
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blackstripe77, very good and true observations. I can't agree anymore, from the ultra rich, to big car/tiny engine combo to the EURO effect on German export). I did some search but can't find any much detail or time to compile them, I wonder the strong revenue from German brands are solely contributed by the raise of Asian market?
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HONDA AFVM
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Powered by Honda wrote:
this and E92 M3 are the greatest things to drive ever! fun fun fun
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Weeeeeeeeell..........I will have to consede to you on that one........those 80's early 90's "M" cars were cool looking and VERY fun to drive..........Is that an 87 M3?
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MasterOfDaDomain
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For enthusiasts, a BMW is a no-brainer - one of the better engineered RWD cars that offer excellent handling and powertrain, as well as 4-5 seats in 2 or 4 door versions. For pure sports cars, Porsche gets the nod. MB cars don't perform as well and Audi of course doesn't offer RWD.
Even the average Joe knows BMW as the Ultimate Driving Machine (although I think Porsche deserves it). For those that can afford them, even the 5 and 7 tend to be the performers in their respective vehicle classes, although the recent trend shows the bigger BMWs are getting softer.
BMW of course has reliability issues, and some quirks such as using run-flat tires (with no space under the trunk floor for a spare) and taking away the dip stick. But at least they continue to offer manual transmissions in their cars (not SUVs).
If one wants to own a BMW, join BMW Car Club of America (I think still the largest car club in the U.S.) - you'll get to attend local club events (including high performance driving school), find the best independent shops for BMW (plus parts/service discounts), and get Roundel magazine as well as cash rebate for BMW purchases.
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BachelorFrog
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ITT: F10 M5 lost its ultimate sport sedan status to E63 AMG and Audi S6.
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TonyEX
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MasterOfDaDomain wrote:
For enthusiasts, a BMW is a no-brainer - one of the better engineered RWD cars that offer excellent handling and powertrain, as well as 4-5 seats in 2 or 4 door versions. For pure sports cars, Porsche gets the nod. MB cars don't perform as well and Audi of course doesn't offer RWD.
Even the average Joe knows BMW as the Ultimate Driving Machine (although I think Porsche deserves it). For those that can afford them, even the 5 and 7 tend to be the performers in their respective vehicle classes, although the recent trend shows the bigger BMWs are getting softer.
BMW of course has reliability issues, and some quirks such as using run-flat tires (with no space under the trunk floor for a spare) and taking away the dip stick. But at least they continue to offer manual transmissions in their cars (not SUVs).
If one wants to own a BMW, join BMW Car Club of America (I think still the largest car club in the U.S.) - you'll get to attend local club events (including high performance driving school), find the best independent shops for BMW (plus parts/service discounts), and get Roundel magazine as well as cash rebate for BMW purchases.
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Welcome to the Snob Club of America...
If you really want a BMW.. get a 2002tii...
Or better yet, a 1970 Datsun 510, put a 2.0L motor ( I think the ones from the 200sx fit ) and really teach those snobs what the real "Ultimate Driving Machine" really is.
BTW, the 510 used to beat the 2002s and Alfas in the late 60s and early 70s.
Ultimate Marketing Machines, if you ask me....
Check this out
http://www.supercars.net/gallery/119513/2484/8.html
I should have never sold my 1970 510. I could have that 510 and a Hondata'd EP-3 in my garage today.
And the Dino 246GT that I almost bought in 1987.
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