S600=Dream
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...And that, folks, is the problem.
I could probably grouse about the interior and the way it looks and all that, but the problem with the car is that it is not good to drive like every single Civic before it.
If they changed nothing else about the car, I'd hope that they fix the drivers interface, because as it is, it's not good.
Seriously, they could just benchmark either the Fit or the Accord and know where to go. The Fit's steering with the Accord's chassis would make a great little car!
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S600=Dream
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And to add, I'm amazed that you are all so up in the kool aid about styling changes.
It's not terrible looking, nor revolutionarily great. It's simply a glacial evolution of the 8th gen, and it's not even that bad.
I'd rather them dump the money and time into the rest of the car and leave it the same looking rather than spend some of the budget on making it look better.
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DCR
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...but you are forgetting that people they aimed this car at do not care about driving. They want connectivity, i-Mid screens and that is about it.
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Chocs
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I wonder if they'll do anything to the Si.
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FiSH-Chan
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Chocs wrote:
I wonder if they'll do anything to the Si.
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Why would they, it's recommended by Consumer Reports lol.
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330R
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Chocs wrote:
I wonder if they'll do anything to the Si.
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Why would they, it's recommended by Consumer Reports lol.
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Ok, that was funny :)
Yet sad at the same time...
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Grace141
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S600, I test drove '11 and '12 EX sedans back-to-back at my local dealer and found them to have a similar feel. What was it about the '12 you found lacking? Tires on the LX, maybe, because they look like they would be awful.
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integrator
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DCR wrote:
...but you are forgetting that people they aimed this car at do not care about driving. They want connectivity, i-Mid screens and that is about it.
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Well thats what Mendel and crew targeted. But traditionally, Civic owners are not mindless drivers. Johnny-boy just wants them to be that way... welcome to lowered expectations! Where you pay more, for less.
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NickDC5
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DCR wrote:
...but you are forgetting that people they aimed this car at do not care about driving. They want connectivity, i-Mid screens and that is about it.
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Pretty much. Why sell a sports car to people who want an economy car?
And as mentioned above, this is why a Civic Si exists. It's probably cheaper for Honda to make two separate cars and market them to two separate groups than stretch a Civic LX/EX across all targets.
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A77
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Its not the way it drives - I have not had one customer say the old model drove better (si excepted). Not one. they prefer the better ride and better refinement of the new. Now I will say I prefer the steering of the old model, and of course there's no comparison interior materials wise. The exterior styling criticism is just weird - no one berates VW or BMW for constant styling evolution. In fact when BMW did do something different - the bangle-butt - they got slammed for it. Sure they could make the civic sedans' front grille/bumper and back lights less boring, but that's about it really. The 5 speed manual tranny action by the way is far superior to the old gen (and doesnt rev hang as much as the Fit).
The Accord has far nicer steering than either the Fit or the Civic, but that aint gonna happen. But honda may well adjsut the EPS to give it a little more feel. Use the componentry from the ILX probably. I am driving that next week so will see if it is any more involving.
The real improvement needs to be inside. that's where most of the flak is. I don't even think the old Civic was great either - I'd like a complete rethink. Its very well assembled, but its a poor inherent design, compaunded by cheap feeling/looking materials.
I went in a Renault Scenic taxi last week - its all TFT instrument cluster looked really good. Not that I expect anything as radical - but please make it look less cheap.
the rev counter is TFT by the way - just designed to look analogue. GPS with updates, live speed camera and radar alerts and traffic data costs £125 every 3 years...
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according2kev
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I don't doubt you that the instrument cluster looks good in person, but I will say that the picture doesn't do it justice imho.
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xBeastx
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according2kev wrote:
I don't doubt you that the instrument cluster looks good in person, but I will say that the picture doesn't do it justice imho.
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I know! The screen look really cheap and boxy in the photograph.
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S600=Dream
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Grace141 wrote:
S600, I test drove '11 and '12 EX sedans back-to-back at my local dealer and found them to have a similar feel. What was it about the '12 you found lacking? Tires on the LX, maybe, because they look like they would be awful.
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Hey Grace,
Yeah, I took out a '12 not long ago to see what the fuss was about with the new car. Coming from my Fit, and after having a fair amount of seat time in my sister in law's '10 Civic, I can safely say that in comparison, the 9G felt soppy, disconnected, and, I dunno, big or something. It just wasn't right like all the other Honda's I've owned and driven. I have to say that I never liked the steering on the 8G Civic, but at least it was quick, and though it's hardly the balanced sport compact it used to be, the suspension was tuned fairly well. The new car is roly-poly, the chassis plows it's nose, and the steering is so slow and dead!
And yeah, it was an EX that I took out.
OY!
One good thing--the engine. The R18 is terribly underrated...it sounds nice, it has plenty of power, and it's smooth and refined. Also gets good real world gas mileage, apparently.
Seriously, getting back in my Fit was freaking revelatory, and it made me wonder if the same company was making the two cars. Maybe not!
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NickDC5
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Come on, now.
The chassis plows its nose because the engine is heavier, which is a result of increased technology to further an engine's efficiency. It's also because the car is heavier now and needs more torque output to homologate it up to speed, which is a result of increased safety standards. Also vehicles are set up from the factory to understeer on turn-in because it's much safer to the median buyer for a vehicle to plow rather than rotate.
This isn't really revolutionary stuff here... There are lots of things to complain about from Honda, but turn-in understeer from its economy cars isn't one of them.
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NickDC5
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The reason why your Fit may appear to have more turn-in response is probably a result of the Fit chassis's torsional rigidity, as well as its "more compact" (read: basic/cheap) rear suspension design, meaning the rear does not grip as well mechanically as the Civic's. Also the Fit probably has a more balanced front/back weight ratio.
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NickDC5
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Nothing against the Fit or the Civic. I LOVED driving a Fit. Haven't taken the redesigned Civic for a test drive yet though. I'd imagine its greatest driving pleasure is more about how reliable it is and how fuel efficient it is after the engine breaks in.
Sorry for the triple post!
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Koya76
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So astounding that 8th generation totally shook up the segment and that 9th gen fell on its face.
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Powered by Honda
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Koya76 wrote:
So astounding that 8th generation totally shook up the segment and that 9th gen fell on its face.
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dam if you look back 5 years to find my posts. I said that the 8th is so good that I'm sure 100% the 9th will be a let down in comparison.
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Chocs
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Powered by Honda wrote:
Koya76 wrote:
So astounding that 8th generation totally shook up the segment and that 9th gen fell on its face.
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dam if you look back 5 years to find my posts. I said that the 8th is so good that I'm sure 100% the 9th will be a let down in comparison.
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Tell us the specs of the NSX2! And if my wife will be someone who dislikes unnecessary shopping!
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integrator
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Interesting, A77. I've been impressed in my trips to France, how voracious they are in high end consumer electronics. They've often have them well ahead of hitting the US mass market.
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NickDC5
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Koya76 wrote:
So astounding that 8th generation totally shook up the segment and that 9th gen fell on its face.
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From Autoblog.com
| Likewise, the Honda Civic, which received a harshly criticized redesign in 2011, bounced back in January with a 49.5-percent increase on sales of 21,883 units. It replaces the aging Accord at the top of Honda's sales heap, which remained flat in January with just 13,659 units ... |
Honda says 2012 Civic inventory is "virtually zero" due to natural disasters
"Civic sales are down for one simple reason: Low dealer inventory as a result of a shortage of small parts caused by the Great East Japan Earthquake earlier this year, which nearly halted production of the 2012 Civic... This is a supply problem, not a demand problem. There just aren't any Civics on dealer lots." |
I think a lot of people are making previous Civic sales into an excuse to complain about the redesign, when the redesign had nothing to do with low sales. In fact, now that tsunami woes are passing, Civic sales are exploding, and the Civic is very much a dominant figure in its market once again.
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CarmB
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S600=Dream wrote:
And to add, I'm amazed that you are all so up in the kool aid about styling changes.
It's not terrible looking, nor revolutionarily great. It's simply a glacial evolution of the 8th gen, and it's not even that bad.
I'd rather them dump the money and time into the rest of the car and leave it the same looking rather than spend some of the budget on making it look better.
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You're right that exterior styling isn't an important issue but wrong in how you characterize it. It is a major step back from the previous version, especially from the rear. Whereas the previous Civic seemed ambitious, as if aspiring to greater things, the current model has a rather blatant sense of being no more or less than a low-cost family hauler. It doesn't seem at all like it wants to even attempt to rise above its current station in life.
Combine that with an apparent cheapening of the interior and no significant upgrade to the performance characteristics and the overall result is a negative reaction from many quarters. In this class of car, you really have to wonder why Honda bothered to alter a product that it clearly can't improve on at this time. The irony is that millions were spent to develop a lower cost model yet that could just as easily been achieved by letting the perfectly adequate previous version soldier on for a few more model years.
When you place the previous Civic alongside the new sedan and the older version looks better, something has gone wrong. I think that if Honda had wanted to fire up some fresh interest in the Civic line, a better way would have been by bringing out a hatch four-door for the NA market and do some minor tweaking all around. Combine that with a reduced MSRP made possible by not bothering to conjure up a full-bore redesign and sales would likely have been fine.
Someone high up in the food chain should have seen this coming and simply allowed the Civic to soldier on largely unchanged until the design team had come up with a re-design that played much better. Then again, hindsight is 20/20 and when you're close to a project you can lose your perspective.
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ClementZ
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Very few cars nowadays are very fun to drive.
The Y-genners DGAF about driveability, or speed;
They want computers.
Which is why the Hyundai Veloster won AJAC Sports Car of the year, despite having a 0-60 time near 10 seconds, rubbish handling, and rubbish braking.
It looked good, and the interior looked high tech.
The age of the driver's car is coming to an end bro.
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S600=Dream
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ClementZ wrote:
The age of the driver's car is coming to an end bro.
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WaaaaaahhhhhHH!!!
I cry, and curse at the younger generation.
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CVCC1974
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The handling is a quite big issue on the '12 Civic. The slow steering & somewhat 'disconnected' feel with the road. That was my impression from test-driving it (the non-Si model - that was Canadian EX with manual trans.), and I only compared it to the non-Si 8th & 7th gen models which I have.
Most likely the culprit was the EPS and the steering ratio. Also the suspension got a little softer & tended to give the body-roll on corners, but still not as 'floaty' as the other compacts like Corolla or Elantra.
The ride was already fine though, for a Civic, I'm used to hear the road/tire noises & feel the bumps on the road when driving my Civics, so I don;t complain on that area. I prefer better handling & quicker steering (and firmer suspension tuning).
I hope they decided to improve the handling on '13 Civic & fix their EPS. Hopefully they will match the steering & handling quality of the 8th gen at least.
I've been on the market for this Civic since the '12 model, so I'm waiting anxiously for the improvement. Better still, they will bring the Euro hatchback, but I won't expect too much on that to happen, but at least the sedan can use it as a benchmark. I've read many positive reviews about the Civic Euro on the handling part of it, even though it has torsion beam rear suspension.
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P54
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S600=Dream wrote:
ClementZ wrote:
The age of the driver's car is coming to an end bro.
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WaaaaaahhhhhHH!!!
I cry, and curse at the younger generation.
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330R
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Change doesn't have to mean cheaping out and dumbing down. It doesn't.
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Farage1
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My Si is a blast to drive fyi.
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montechester
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Why do people that KNOW they want an SI even drive an LX or EX? I'll never understand why people that want the sharper end of the performance envelope bother to drive the more pedestrian models, then waste their time complaining that it doesn't drive like an SI. Of course it doesn't, by design.
BTW, those saying the 2012 drives the way if does because it's nose heavy don't have their facts straight. Apples to apples, the 2012 Civics are slightly lighter overall than the 2011, and have identical weight distribution front to rear. So, weight is not what you are "feeling" when you think the 2011 is superior to the 2012.
I'd bet if most people were put in one and then the other with all styling cues masked so you couldn't SEE the differences, most people would not be able to tell which car was which from driving or ride feel. Less noise in the 2012 car might be the only dead giveaway between the 2.
Less face it, SOME enthusiasts are ticked off that the new car isn't a big enough change after waiting an extra year, and those folks are looking for anything and everything they can to trash the new car that is such a disappointment to them.
If you call yourself an enthusiast, you don't belong in any Civic but the SI, period. You are't going to be happy in an LX or EX, so why waste your time driving those? Interior materials not withstanding, I think a huge source of complaints is people test driving the wrong trim level of Civic to start with.
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CVCC1974
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montechester wrote:
If you call yourself an enthusiast, you don't belong in any Civic but the SI, period. You are't going to be happy in an LX or EX, so why waste your time driving those? Interior materials not withstanding, I think a huge source of complaints is people test driving the wrong trim level of Civic to start with.
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I'm happy with my 8th & 7th gen non-Si models. I'm not happy with how the 9th gen EX drives (haven't tried LX but I assume it's worse if not the same). I'd prefer even Fit for the steering/handling than the 9th gen Civic. I use car for a long commute to work everyday so it doesn't make sense to pay more on premium fuel with an Si, while the 'normal' Civic (the 7th & 8th gen) can make me feel happy.
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