sadlerau
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After much appealing by Chevrolet, the final appeal has been dismissed in the case of Honda being allowed to update the turbo housing on their Indycar motor.
http://www.crash.net/indycar/news/179587/1/chevy_loses_final_turbocharger_appeal.html
Honda had claimed the right to have the housing of the single turbo on their motor changed to give better driveability. I have read that this was part of a gentleman's agreement pre-season, when in early testing it became apparent that the turbo response of the single turbo was lacking [no surprise there!].
Borg Warner had identified the problem and offered "another off the shelf" housing that addressed the problem. Understandably Chevrolet was miffed by the allowance of the change, wishing to keep it's advantage, and proceeded to challenge the change.
Further reading here -
http://www.crash.net/indycar/news/179024/1/honda_wins_right_to_upgrade_turbochargers.html
What will be interesting is what happens if/when the single turbo out performs the twin turbo at a place like Indianapolis?? Fur will fly. Don't you love motorsport?? :)
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Honda Dream
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Motorsport is lovable :) However I would still prefer much more open rules. I miss the development on the engines and components. You can always set some rules but still I would allow design to be free and be limited like bore/stroke, v angle degree or centre of g etc.etc.
I would just put in place a rule about how long an engine/powertrain components must live - three, four, five, whatever racing weekends.
I won't be surprised if Honda engine outperforms Chevy everywhere now...
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sadlerau
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Honda Dream wrote:
I won't be surprised if Honda engine outperforms Chevy everywhere now...
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In-car camera footage from Brazil [the first race where Honda engined cars used the bigger housing] showed that the new housing had closed the gap to the twin turbo layout, not actually giving an advantage.
We are about to see the difference on an oval course :)
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sadlerau
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Well the verdict is in - and the Honda tech boffins obviously didn't do their "due diligence".
The top 6 grid positions are held by Chevy powered cars, then a Honda, then another 3 Chevy's. :(
One can only hope that the race pace, as indicated by testing this past week, is somewhat closer! Qualifying runs were done with extra boost. Perhaps the twin turbo set-up provides an advantage at higher boost levels??
In truth, this result is an unmitigated disaster for HPD, and only a win next Sunday will soften the blow that such a result brings.
At least there's an Aussie on Pole :) :( ? !
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notyper
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sadlerau wrote:
Well the verdict is in - and the Honda tech boffins obviously didn't do their "due diligence".
The top 6 grid positions are held by Chevy powered cars, then a Honda, then another 3 Chevy's. :(
One can only hope that the race pace, as indicated by testing this past week, is somewhat closer! Qualifying runs were done with extra boost. Perhaps the twin turbo set-up provides an advantage at higher boost levels??
In truth, this result is an unmitigated disaster for HPD, and only a win next Sunday will soften the blow that such a result brings.
At least there's an Aussie on Pole :) :( ? !
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Should be just the opposite. A single larger turbo should be more efficient as boost and flow climb. Clearly, as you say, someone hasn't done their homework here. A shame.
Although, maybe when they made the change they actually reduced the A/R for better response, but that would actually choke peak hp. Sounds like this series really works better with a twin turbo setup. Maybe the problem is with Borg Warner. Garrett-Honeywell has a much better motorsports record.
SC
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Kiwi Vtec
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I was listening to Indy radio during fast Friday and some one from a Honda team mention the Honda engines were having waste gate problems on the Turbo once the boast pressure was increased for fast Friday and Qualifying, they were losing a lot of top end power. Certainly showed on Pole day :(
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sadlerau
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That would explain a lot. But all the Honda teams were having the problem?
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Bullwinkle
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sadlerau wrote:
That would explain a lot. But all the Honda teams were having the problem?
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Short answer: Yes.
Once the boost level was increased, the Hondas were bouncing off the Boost limiters and incurring over boost penalties. This was happening to some Chevys (you can hear it on TV), but almost all the Hondas.
The only ones that were not were the two Sarah Fisher cars. Which could indicate that they were handling better.
Why? Heard on TV that Honda had told some of its drivers to make sure that they did not lift off the accelerator during their runs. That lifting was causing the over over boost issue. IF the Sarah Fisher cars were able to be run "flat" (no lifting), then they would not have had the over boost.
This would tend to show that the Honda's were on the ragged edge in order to get where they were.
Interestingly, Honda was actually ahead of Chevy during race-level boost practices before Friday. But when the boost was increased, the Honda engine could not use it as well.
This would be a very bad thing for Milwaukee and Iowa, which are going to use the same level of Boost as was used at Indy on Friday-saturday.
(Road Courses use much more boost).
One more thing: Read that a few Hondas are testing in Milwaukee today and tomorrow. That would seem to allow them to work on the power issues and mapping the exhaust to avoid overboost
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$mooth
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I just got back from Carb day at the Indy 500. The Hondas were running much faster today. I spoke with a couple crew members from different Honda teams; they tell me that Honda delivered brand new engines that were installed before today. It was unannounced to them, but they say it kicks butt. Much meaner growl on start-up too. No penalties incur because the Indy 500 gets special rules.
It looks like Honda may finally get their first win this weekend.
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Bullwinkle
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FYI: all of the cars in the race got new engines for Carb Day and the race.
I don't think they could do anything different internally to the engine. However, they are free to mess with the electronics and they can play around with things external to the engine, like the exhaust routing to the turbo, intake, etc.
The big unknown for Sunday is Mileage. Each team should go 30-ish laps on a tank of fuel. If one manufacturer has even a one-lap edge, that can be huge at the end of the race.
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$mooth
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Yes, i guess I did a poor job of explaining. All cars got a new engine to break in for carb day without penalty. While the Chevys and Lotuss (Loti?) got a zero hour engine that was the same as before, the Hondas got a modified engine that is not what they were using to qualify. These are a good bit stronger; You can just take a look at the top 5 from carb day to see how much better they are performing.
Mileage is still unknown and can be a huge factor. Gonna be a good one.
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VTEC_Inside
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I just saw a Honda EU2000 generator hooked up to the pole car during the pre-race coverage, so Honda on the pole after all. :)
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Colin
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Bullwinkle wrote:
The big unknown for Sunday is Mileage. Each team should go 30-ish laps on a tank of fuel. If one manufacturer has even a one-lap edge, that can be huge at the end of the race.
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Looks like the HPD built Honda engines had the same power/speed as the Ilmore built Chevy's but were going 2-3 laps further on a tank of ethanol. Had Randy Bernard not extended the last caution period (which he admitted to), it's possible that all the Chevy runners would have had to pit for fuel with a few laps remaining. My god, it could have been Honda in all the top 10 positions even including Sato!?
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Bullwinkle
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Bullwinkle wrote:
FYI: all of the cars in the race got new engines for Carb Day and the race.
I don't think they could do anything different internally to the engine. However, they are free to mess with the electronics and they can play around with things external to the engine, like the exhaust routing to the turbo, intake, etc.
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I was wrong about internal modifications. Indycar specifies things that are open for development and things that are not. Several of the things that are open for development are Internal to the engine, as well as things external like waste gates, etc.
Interviews with HPD engineers imply that one of the areas they worked on involved the direct injection system. This seems to have been the key to better fuel mileage. In the original motor, they had to run the engine richer than they would have liked to avoid detonation.
That was fixed with the new engine and the result was leaner operation and better fuel economy.
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mobis21
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Colin wrote:
Bullwinkle wrote:
The big unknown for Sunday is Mileage. Each team should go 30-ish laps on a tank of fuel. If one manufacturer has even a one-lap edge, that can be huge at the end of the race.
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Looks like the HPD built Honda engines had the same power/speed as the Ilmore built Chevy's but were going 2-3 laps further on a tank of ethanol. Had Randy Bernard not extended the last caution period (which he admitted to), it's possible that all the Chevy runners would have had to pit for fuel with a few laps remaining. My god, it could have been Honda in all the top 10 positions even including Sato!?
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I did not watch the race, but that would have been fantastic for a Honda Sweep, and to be a couple of laps ahead.
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DrWhiner
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I think Honda said to win the Indy500 was what they worked for:
http://www.indystar.com/article/20120528/SPORTS0107/205280308/Indy-500-Honda-engines-perform-well
"This (race) is the one that we worked for; this is what we set our sights on two years ago when we first started working on this engine. Everything we've done until today has been all about getting to the end of this race and getting to the end in front."
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