atomiclightbulb
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I have heard here that ToV is widely read by employees at Honda in Japan.
My question is: do you know if the American executives of Honda/Acura (Mendel, Conrad, etc.) read what people write here?
On occasion, I've written personally insulting things about some of these people, and Honda/Acura management in general, although I have defended both Ito and Mendel. Others have written much harsher and more insulting things. I have to wonder if my criticism, and ToV criticism in general, is taken seriously. Or if we are so snarky and cruel that the management just tunes us out because of the personal animosity.
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according2kev
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LOL, I saw one of your very recent posts and the same question ran through my mind.
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330R
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I understand where you're coming from. However I would be shocked (and very pleasantly surprised!) if Jeff Conrad read Honda fan sites. I also can't see someone else who does visit here, breaking the news to him that someone called him a complete idiot.
(Betcha kinda wish there was an edit button, huh? :D )
I figure the management only gets the high level overview of the internet chatter. I could be way off course on that, but I don't think they have time to be troubled with the vitriol. If they did, it hasn't done much good. Again, it wasn't until some two months or so after the PR photos and press release for the 9th gen Civics were released that Honda responded to the criticism. That's because Consumer Reports stepped in. We'd been bashing the hell out of that car since February '11, even before (Middle East testing).
Finally, personally I used to be much more diplomatic. I'm hateful toward H/A [mis]management now. It used to be a little more diplomatic here. I should try that again, since now you're the hateful one. ;) But I wonder, do you think that they say nothing but nice things about us whenever we come up? We're so hard to please. We aren't buying enough hybrids and we told them to delete the new Civic!! And my God, those K20 sons of motherless goats... shut up already.
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WongKN
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I can't speak for Jeff or Neal, or AHM or Acura, but I can tell you this for sure. Honda WILL accept criticism but also appreciates praise. But MOST important of all is whatever comments are levelled at them, positive or negative, MUST be fair and logical. This applies BOTH ways. They don't appreciate mindless bashing for the sake of bashing, especially if it is not backed up by facts. But at the same time, they DON'T appreciate people 'polishing their balls' - i.e. a local term for blindly defending them. If a comment makes sense, is supported by facts and is fair, they take it whether it is positive or negative. I know for a fact that the Insight LPL actually read my article about talking to him during the launch of the car at the KL Motor Show back a couple of years ago. This is because he specifically mentioned my article when he came for the media drive event. I also know Honda Malaysia and Honda Asia HQ people do read some of the articles and forums here. So the bottom line is fair and logical comments, supported by facts and done fairly. Of course a restrained language is much appreciated. Do note that this may only apply over here in Asia.
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Midi_Amp
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
I have heard here that ToV is widely read by employees at Honda in Japan.
My question is: do you know if the American executives of Honda/Acura (Mendel, Conrad, etc.) read what people write here?
On occasion, I've written personally insulting things about some of these people, and Honda/Acura management in general, although I have defended both Ito and Mendel. Others have written much harsher and more insulting things. I have to wonder if my criticism, and ToV criticism in general, is taken seriously. Or if we are so snarky and cruel that the management just tunes us out because of the personal animosity.
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I wouldn't count on that, being that criticism for a company is listened or being considered of. I took this from a personal experience working on my company which also produces end user goods. I engage in forums that discusses my products, and read all the bashing, the pricing, the name changes, lack of marketing and so on... Frankly, it all falls on deaf ears. Companies runs on money, as long they sell the products, the top management won't care the small number of complaints.
My tired answer to the fans that grumbles on our new products is... "tell the majority don't buy it". If there's enough disruption on the market, management will notice, and I am forced to roll out incentives policy and other marketing activities. If market demand still drops, then either I'm fired as country head (like my competitor) or new product will roll while I get a bonus cut.
So, in some manner I feel how Honda management will act. The bean counters has so much power over everything it's not even funny. The bean counters seat up high, and even product planners has to answer to them, at least in my company. What I have left is a product that I must sell, or my well being is threatened in the company. I see this is what's going on in Honda as well.
That's why I'm hoping ILX to succeed in the market so the bean counters can spare a dime or two to spin a hotter version. Since its number will be small, a cross subsidy still allows it to exist.
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sadlerau
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Midi_Amp wrote:
So, in some manner I feel how Honda management will act. The bean counters has so much power over everything it's not even funny. The bean counters seat up high, and even product planners has to answer to them, at least in my company. What I have left is a product that I must sell, or my well being is threatened in the company. I see this is what's going on in Honda as well.
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That summarizes so much of what's wrong with our society. the continued rise of the "bean counter" to the most exalted position in business, overseeing even the product planners.
While I can understand that companies must make a profit to exist, surely the most important part of any company producing goods is the product itself? Without it you have nothing to sell.
Bean counters are vitally important, but should not be positioned so highly that they tend to dictate the product. End of rant :)
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Nick GravesX
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WongKN wrote:
I can't speak for Jeff or Neal, or AHM or Acura, but I can tell you this for sure. Honda WILL accept criticism but also appreciates praise. But MOST important of all is whatever comments are levelled at them, positive or negative, MUST be fair and logical. This applies BOTH ways. They don't appreciate mindless bashing for the sake of bashing, especially if it is not backed up by facts. But at the same time, they DON'T appreciate people 'polishing their balls' - i.e. a local term for blindly defending them. If a comment makes sense, is supported by facts and is fair, they take it whether it is positive or negative. I know for a fact that the Insight LPL actually read my article about talking to him during the launch of the car at the KL Motor Show back a couple of years ago. This is because he specifically mentioned my article when he came for the media drive event. I also know Honda Malaysia and Honda Asia HQ people do read some of the articles and forums here. So the bottom line is fair and logical comments, supported by facts and done fairly. Of course a restrained language is much appreciated. Do note that this may only apply over here in Asia.
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Pretty much my take on events and I'm sure sometimes the message does get through. Did I ever mention how brilliant 4WS is?
Clearly, rubbish, idiotic posts (they should put the K24 in the Jazz or whatever) will be ignored.
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atomiclightbulb
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330R wrote:
I understand where you're coming from. However I would be shocked (and very pleasantly surprised!) if Jeff Conrad read Honda fan sites. I also can't see someone else who does visit here, breaking the news to him that someone called him a complete idiot.
(Betcha kinda wish there was an edit button, huh? :D ) |
Haha, I've yet to write anything about Honda/Acura or its employees that I've regretted. I used to be a lot more diplomatic too, but after a few years it was clear the message wasn't getting across.
WongKN wrote:
I can't speak for Jeff or Neal, or AHM or Acura, but I can tell you this for sure. Honda WILL accept criticism but also appreciates praise. But MOST important of all is whatever comments are levelled at them, positive or negative, MUST be fair and logical. This applies BOTH ways.
...
So the bottom line is fair and logical comments, supported by facts and done fairly. Of course a restrained language is much appreciated. Do note that this may only apply over here in Asia.
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I always give reasons for my statements and try to offer feedback that will result in improvement of products. It's impossible however not to be angry at some of the ridiculous mistakes Honda has made in the North American market recently.
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superchg2
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Midi_Amp wrote:
Frankly, it all falls on deaf ears. Companies runs on money, as long they sell the products, the top management won't care the small number of complaints.
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Since the Honda corporate culture seems to to have adopted a "just good enough" attitude, some new products may come up short when compared with their ever-improving competition.
I think that if Honda's top brass all had to drive around in, say a fleet of ILX hybrid's, forced to cope with merging on freeways and trying to avoid getting run over by oil tankers, they might wake up and say "This car sucks!", hopefully before the car went into production.
The reality seems to be that they are disengaged from the products they are producing. Ultimately, the enthusiast's may have no choice but to simply move on, and I do hope Honda monitor's our Forum.
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JMU R1
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superchg2 wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
Frankly, it all falls on deaf ears. Companies runs on money, as long they sell the products, the top management won't care the small number of complaints.
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Since the Honda corporate culture seems to to have adopted a "just good enough" attitude, some new products may come up short when compared with their ever-improving competition.
I think that if Honda's top brass all had to drive around in, say a fleet of ILX hybrid's, forced to cope with merging on freeways and trying to avoid getting run over by oil tankers, they might wake up and say "This car sucks!", hopefully before the car went into production. |
I think the problem is not that they don't try their own product, it's that they don't pay enough attention to the competitor's product. I asked the LPL at the Civic launch which cars they benchmarked when they were developing the Si and he responded, 'there was no benchmark'.
To me that says that maybe they are not paying enough attention to the competition, and perhaps not deeply understanding the value proposition of their competitors. Now, on the bread and butter products (CR-V, Odyssey, Accord) I think Honda has a very good handle on the market and the product reflects. But on the other stuff like the crossovers, hybrids, and their attempts at sporty vehicles, not paying enough attention to the competition could be why some of those cars have gone wide of the mark.
The reality seems to be that they are disengaged from the products they are producing. Ultimately, the enthusiast's may have no choice but to simply move on, and I do hope Honda monitor's our Forum.
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For the time being that may be the only option. Maybe instead of being depressed by the lack of options from Honda we can use this time to get some automotive variety in our lives. We can always return when/if Honda finally gets the message. I'm already going that route on bikes (sold my 1000RR).
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TonyEX
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
I have heard here that ToV is widely read by employees at Honda in Japan.
My question is: do you know if the American executives of Honda/Acura (Mendel, Conrad, etc.) read what people write here?
On occasion, I've written personally insulting things about some of these people, and Honda/Acura management in general, although I have defended both Ito and Mendel. Others have written much harsher and more insulting things. I have to wonder if my criticism, and ToV criticism in general, is taken seriously. Or if we are so snarky and cruel that the management just tunes us out because of the personal animosity.
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You are SO SCREWED.... oh man... AHM has a list of enemies and you are in the Top 10.
OTOH, Toyota will hire you in a second... ;-)
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dominik331
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I have no doubts Honda employees read the comments on this site, but I seriously doubt that anyone is listening or doing any thing to satisfy TOVs requests or suggestions.
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dominik331
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dominik331 wrote:
I have no doubts Honda employees read the comments on this site, but I seriously doubt that anyone is listening or doing any thing to satisfy TOVs requests or suggestions.
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On the other hand, go to Honda or Acura's facebook pages. It's full of praises and great comments from Honda owners. That's exactly what they want to hear.
They are really good at asking people stupid questions such as "are you gardening this weekend? Do you like pie? would you like to see a sports car in the sky?", but totally ignore the questions we ask and matter to us.
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Colin
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They absolutely read what is written. I know this because I've had people from corporate comment on what I've written in the past. (on several occasions)
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CarPhreakD
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I think the opinions of long-time TOVers are for the most part, fair and well argued
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atomiclightbulb
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TonyE wrote:
You are SO SCREWED.... oh man... AHM has a list of enemies and you are in the Top 10. |
I guess that means I won't be invited to Acura press events then.
Colin wrote:
They absolutely read what is written. I know this because I've had people from corporate comment on what I've written in the past. (on several occasions) |
What's the general reaction of the corporate types to your comments?
I tend to be brutal and profane, so I can't imagine anyone would say anything good about my comments.
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Midi_Amp
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JMU R1 wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
Frankly, it all falls on deaf ears. Companies runs on money, as long they sell the products, the top management won't care the small number of complaints.
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Since the Honda corporate culture seems to to have adopted a "just good enough" attitude, some new products may come up short when compared with their ever-improving competition.
I think that if Honda's top brass all had to drive around in, say a fleet of ILX hybrid's, forced to cope with merging on freeways and trying to avoid getting run over by oil tankers, they might wake up and say "This car sucks!", hopefully before the car went into production. |
I think the problem is not that they don't try their own product, it's that they don't pay enough attention to the competitor's product. I asked the LPL at the Civic launch which cars they benchmarked when they were developing the Si and he responded, 'there was no benchmark'.
To me that says that maybe they are not paying enough attention to the competition, and perhaps not deeply understanding the value proposition of their competitors. Now, on the bread and butter products (CR-V, Odyssey, Accord) I think Honda has a very good handle on the market and the product reflects. But on the other stuff like the crossovers, hybrids, and their attempts at sporty vehicles, not paying enough attention to the competition could be why some of those cars have gone wide of the mark.
The reality seems to be that they are disengaged from the products they are producing. Ultimately, the enthusiast's may have no choice but to simply move on, and I do hope Honda monitor's our Forum.
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For the time being that may be the only option. Maybe instead of being depressed by the lack of options from Honda we can use this time to get some automotive variety in our lives. We can always return when/if Honda finally gets the message. I'm already going that route on bikes (sold my 1000RR).
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I have the exact same attitude. Before my current ride which is a Honda, I drove a Suzuki, just because Honda doesn't have a car which was in my price range back then. I wanted a small SUV and Honda only had CR-V and the accompanying premium pricing (it's an expensive car where I live). Now that I have a baby daughter, my needs changed to MPV. Currently I drive the Freed, and it's not exactly a fuel sipper on jammed up road, weight and small 1.5L engine takes its toll on fuel economy. Luckily I didn't drive the car often, if I am, then I'm going back to Suzuki or even buy *gaps* a Nissan, which they sell a more compact 7 seater, cheaper to buy and operate since it can use the poor quality subsidized fuel. Honda did mentioned about making an MPV out of the Brio which will slot below the Freed though, but will be available 2014.
If indeed the Civic SI had no benchmark, that was just wrong and reflect the arrogant stance of the management. For that we don't have to scream and shout, let Honda be. When things becomes too complacent, even an orangutan can fall (a local saying). So just relax, buy whatever we want to drive but I'm keeping my fondness for Honda close at heart.
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DCR
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
I tend to be brutal and profane, so I can't imagine anyone would say anything good about my comments.
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That made me giggle.
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FiSH-Chan
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Midi_Amp wrote:
I have the exact same attitude. Before my current ride which is a Honda, I drove a Suzuki, just because Honda doesn't have a car which was in my price range back then. I wanted a small SUV and Honda only had CR-V and the accompanying premium pricing (it's an expensive car where I live). Now that I have a baby daughter, my needs changed to MPV. Currently I drive the Freed, and it's not exactly a fuel sipper on jammed up road, weight and small 1.5L engine takes its toll on fuel economy. Luckily I didn't drive the car often, if I am, then I'm going back to Suzuki or even buy *gaps* a Nissan, which they sell a more compact 7 seater, cheaper to buy and operate since it can use the poor quality subsidized fuel.
If indeed the Civic SI had no benchmark, that was just wrong and reflect the arrogant stance of the management. For that we don't have to scream and shout, let Honda be. When things becomes too complacent, even an orangutan can fall (a local saying). So just relax, buy whatever we want to drive but I'm keeping my fondness for Honda close at heart. |
When I was a kid, I see orang utans fall all the time at zoos. Maybe that is a big problem why the world is it is now, LOL. Seriously though, agreed, buy the whatever you guys want and show us the pics.
Midi_Amp wrote:
Honda did mentioned about making an MPV out of the Brio which will slot below the Freed though, but will be available 2014.
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You know what, this is news to me.
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Grace141
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I think the opinions of long-time TOVers are for the most part, fair and well argued
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As Click and Clack might say, Honda should be interested in the middle half of TOV comments which would cover much of what everyone posts here. Seems pretty reasonable when you think about it - ignore the supercharged complaints, the questionably over the top praises, and consider what remains. Still, this should be for long-term planning and not panic mode product tweaking.
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Midi_Amp
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
I have the exact same attitude. Before my current ride which is a Honda, I drove a Suzuki, just because Honda doesn't have a car which was in my price range back then. I wanted a small SUV and Honda only had CR-V and the accompanying premium pricing (it's an expensive car where I live). Now that I have a baby daughter, my needs changed to MPV. Currently I drive the Freed, and it's not exactly a fuel sipper on jammed up road, weight and small 1.5L engine takes its toll on fuel economy. Luckily I didn't drive the car often, if I am, then I'm going back to Suzuki or even buy *gaps* a Nissan, which they sell a more compact 7 seater, cheaper to buy and operate since it can use the poor quality subsidized fuel.
If indeed the Civic SI had no benchmark, that was just wrong and reflect the arrogant stance of the management. For that we don't have to scream and shout, let Honda be. When things becomes too complacent, even an orangutan can fall (a local saying). So just relax, buy whatever we want to drive but I'm keeping my fondness for Honda close at heart. |
When I was a kid, I see orang utans fall all the time at zoos. Maybe that is a big problem why the world is it is now, LOL. Seriously though, agreed, buy the whatever you guys want and show us the pics.
Midi_Amp wrote:
Honda did mentioned about making an MPV out of the Brio which will slot below the Freed though, but will be available 2014.
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You know what, this is news to me.
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Perhaps Honda management currently is like that Orangutan in captivity... They are so fenced in by the bean counters, they basically couldn't shine as much as if they are free.
About that Brio MPV, the statement was from the local top man in Honda Indonesia. The only confirmation from global HQ (world.honda.com) is that there will be a new factory in Indonesia by 2014 and Brio introduction. The local Honda boss mentioned in a press statement that Honda is aiming at entry level 7 seater market which is currently dominated by Toyota Avanza/Daihatsu Xenia with a Brio MPV, developed specifically for local market and will be introduced in 2014.
So yeah, it's quite a news, but I don't know why it's not on the global website though... Perhaps Honda Indonesia is being pinned by Nissan with its onslaught of new product each year, they must roll out a statement of future product to stop people from jumping to Nissan "exciting" bandwagon. Infiniti introduction, and then Juke, March and soon coming in hot NV200 (renamed to Evalia) just decimates Honda 6 model offering... Funny enough, Nissan local top man was Honda local top man staff, so lots of insight on the business model brought to the competition.
Anyway, good news is that CR-Z is finally coming to Indonesia (thanks Nissan and your pressure), so now I know what to buy for my retirement.
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DCR
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There shouldn't need to be panic mode tweaking...that is what is most frustrating and confusing at the same time.
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superchg2
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Grace141 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
I think the opinions of long-time TOVers are for the most part, fair and well argued
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As Click and Clack might say, Honda should be interested in the middle half of TOV comments which would cover much of what everyone posts here. Seems pretty reasonable when you think about it - ignore the supercharged complaints, the questionably over the top praises, and consider what remains. Still, this should be for long-term planning and not panic mode product tweaking.
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Grace141, you can take your arrogance and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
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330R
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superchg2 wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
I think the opinions of long-time TOVers are for the most part, fair and well argued
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As Click and Clack might say, Honda should be interested in the middle half of TOV comments which would cover much of what everyone posts here. Seems pretty reasonable when you think about it - ignore the supercharged complaints, the questionably over the top praises, and consider what remains. Still, this should be for long-term planning and not panic mode product tweaking.
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Grace141, you can take your arrogance and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
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Oh no man, I don't think he was targeting "superchg2" when he said "supercharged complaints". I think he meant the most furious, angry complaints.. he probably means me :( and Owe and some others.
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FiSH-Chan
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Midi_Amp wrote:
About that Brio MPV, the statement was from the local top man in Honda Indonesia. The only confirmation from global HQ (world.honda.com) is that there will be a new factory in Indonesia by 2014 and Brio introduction. The local Honda boss mentioned in a press statement that Honda is aiming at entry level 7 seater market which is currently dominated by Toyota Avanza/Daihatsu Xenia with a Brio MPV, developed specifically for local market and will be introduced in 2014.
So yeah, it's quite a news, but I don't know why it's not on the global website though... Perhaps Honda Indonesia is being pinned by Nissan with its onslaught of new product each year, they must roll out a statement of future product to stop people from jumping to Nissan "exciting" bandwagon. Infiniti introduction, and then Juke, March and soon coming in hot NV200 (renamed to Evalia) just decimates Honda 6 model offering... Funny enough, Nissan local top man was Honda local top man staff, so lots of insight on the business model brought to the competition.
Anyway, good news is that CR-Z is finally coming to Indonesia (thanks Nissan and your pressure), so now I know what to buy for my retirement.
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That's new, thanks for the info. About Infiniti, I think they launched the brand here absolutely no one is aware. Because I can only spot 1 Infiniti, the crossover thing which I have no idea what model.
Do they still double tax hybrids over there?
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Grace141
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330R wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
I think the opinions of long-time TOVers are for the most part, fair and well argued
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As Click and Clack might say, Honda should be interested in the middle half of TOV comments which would cover much of what everyone posts here. Seems pretty reasonable when you think about it - ignore the supercharged complaints, the questionably over the top praises, and consider what remains. Still, this should be for long-term planning and not panic mode product tweaking.
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Grace141, you can take your arrogance and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
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Oh no man, I don't think he was targeting "superchg2" when he said "supercharged complaints". I think he meant the most furious, angry complaints.. he probably means me :( and Owe and some others.
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No, I didn't mean anyone in particular. Sorry, superchg2, I didn't catch that one. I just meant they should track the moderate comments that aren't made when someone is angry.
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superchg2
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Grace141 wrote:
330R wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
I think the opinions of long-time TOVers are for the most part, fair and well argued
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As Click and Clack might say, Honda should be interested in the middle half of TOV comments which would cover much of what everyone posts here. Seems pretty reasonable when you think about it - ignore the supercharged complaints, the questionably over the top praises, and consider what remains. Still, this should be for long-term planning and not panic mode product tweaking.
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Grace141, you can take your arrogance and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
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Oh no man, I don't think he was targeting "superchg2" when he said "supercharged complaints". I think he meant the most furious, angry complaints.. he probably means me :( and Owe and some others.
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No, I didn't mean anyone in particular. Sorry, superchg2, I didn't catch that one. I just meant they should track the moderate comments that aren't made when someone is angry.
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No offense taken.
I really do hope that Honda does pay attention to TOV.
Most of us have been with Honda for a long time and really would like to see our brand as front-runner again. And most of our criticism's are constructive, I have to believe
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sadlerau
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DCR wrote:
There shouldn't need to be panic mode tweaking...that is what is most frustrating and confusing at the same time.
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That's where someone like old Mr Honda would come in and say - "your not releasing that half baked pile of ..... Not before you get it right!"
But you would need someone with balls big enough to stand up to the "planners" signing off on a vehicle. Someone from up high, who will walk down the corridors on the lower levels, keeping a parental eye on things.
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