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TonyEX
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Torque wrote:
...
Fit: I love this car. It is the most versatile and most Honda like car in the lineup today. Flexible seating, interior ergonomics, low price point, and great fuel efficiency. My only con is the engine. It is too low on power at the bottom end and tops out pretty quickly. I did a road trip from Washington, DC to Pittsburgh and the car with a full load had a hard time pulling off of the on ramp getting up to highway speed. My only negative. If this had a version of the 2.0 engine with 160 hp I would buy the car immediately.
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TonyE, I did check out the TSX wagon in Vortex Blue Pearl. Great car, but I'm not sure I am a wagon guy.
I am holding out for news about the Accord. Like you, I am going to be cautiously optimistic until real news filters out. That it will be more compact, have the ED (still can't get over that goofy name) engines in it and be more efficient are at least something to hold out some hope for. I am also not keeping my shopping list confined to Honda/Acura. The best car that meets my needs gets my money. I have a pretty wide price range from the 20s to the mid 30s so it will be interesting to see who I wind up buying from this time around.
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If you're not much in a hurry then the Accord will be in your time frame.
Who knows, maybe AHM might decide to offer the ILX K24 with NAVI and Tech, so that will be a nice package.
Time could be on your side if you can wait.
I pulled the trigger in the TSX Wagon (Blue!) because we suddenly lost the CRV and I needed something that I could carry stuff. It will also be gone from the line up and, unless the new Accord offers a wagon, the only way to get a box will be a CUV... and I'm sort of tired of that. I don't mind the wagon shape, I actually like it.
We also pulled the trigger in the Si because we needed one more car like six months ago.. Both of the TSX and Si are one year leases so we have lots of flexibility there.. and, honestly, I'm not that worried about the "negatives" on the Civic. I just think people wanted the 9th gen Civic to be an Integra which it almost was once (should have never been) and now people feel let down because they have Acura expectations for a Honda.
The Fit you drove.. was it MT or AT? The MT is much livelier at the expense of pulling 4K RPM at 80mph. But it moves fine otherwise. The only negative, IMHO, is that the MT Sport NAVI went away.. dumb move there. Interesting... when you say 160 bhp.. many times I've looked at our Fit and thought of it as a five door EP-3 with a stripped down interior. I loved our 03 EP-3, btw, even if almost everybody else hated it. I wish I had not sold it. ;-)
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JeffX
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TonyE wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Torque wrote:
Jeff,
Do you know of any actual bright spots we could look forward to in the near future? Lately, it has been duds and/or cars that miss the mark in this market. I'm at the end of my rope here as I need to get a second car soon. As it is, Honda just isn't cutting it anymore.
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Unlike TonyE, I don't think fixing the '13 Civic will be as simple as an interior upgrade. I feel that its issues are more fundamental, but the interior upgrade will go a fair way to improving it to "good enough" for most people.
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Aaah, but you don't say what...
IMHO, the current Civic just needs adjusting the interior.. it's the ILX that needs to step up first.
.
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I would scrap all of the engines in the civic Lineup. The base civic should get an r20 with cvt/6mt options. Si should be a 'k22'. IFF you HAVE to have a 2.4l Si, go ahead and put a damned AT or CVT in it. The MT Si's K22 needs all the hi-perf fixings with improved emissions and FE. 8000rpm redline. The exterior of the new Civic needs a lot of work. Get rid of the stupid a-pillar dummy plate and all those damned windows. Lose the SUV-sized exterior mirrors. It also needs to lose the Baja 1000-sized desert-runner wheelhouses and be properly fit with road going automobile wheelhouses. The suspension is too soft and squishy for the Si too. Far too much body roll.
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TonyEX
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Jeff wrote:
TonyE wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Torque wrote:
Jeff,
Do you know of any actual bright spots we could look forward to in the near future? Lately, it has been duds and/or cars that miss the mark in this market. I'm at the end of my rope here as I need to get a second car soon. As it is, Honda just isn't cutting it anymore.
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Unlike TonyE, I don't think fixing the '13 Civic will be as simple as an interior upgrade. I feel that its issues are more fundamental, but the interior upgrade will go a fair way to improving it to "good enough" for most people.
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Aaah, but you don't say what...
IMHO, the current Civic just needs adjusting the interior.. it's the ILX that needs to step up first.
.
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I would scrap all of the engines in the civic Lineup. The base civic should get an r20 with cvt/6mt options. Si should be a 'k22'. IFF you HAVE to have a 2.4l Si, go ahead and put a damned AT or CVT in it. The MT Si's K22 needs all the hi-perf fixings with improved emissions and FE. 8000rpm redline. The exterior of the new Civic needs a lot of work. Get rid of the stupid a-pillar dummy plate and all those damned windows. Lose the SUV-sized exterior mirrors. It also needs to lose the Baja 1000-sized desert-runner wheelhouses and be properly fit with road going automobile wheelhouses. The suspension is too soft and squishy for the Si too. Far too much body roll.
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Jeff, Jeff... did you read what I wrote?
That's what the ILX should (and likely will) be. That's its job. You keep going back to the 8th gen and wishing the 9th were just like it.
The Civic needs to go back to the 7th gen with updates to make it modern.
What you want is a Civic that will compete head to head with the ILX. And unless the ILX moves way up market, there is no way that the Civic can get the same (or better) power trains and suspension.
Body style... matter of taste. I only go nuts when I see something like the ZDX or CT... most other things I just don't care so much.
We're back to the same old balance between the Integra and the Civic. Only that so far Acura has fumbled the ILX big time.
I'll betcha that if there were an ILX-S with a 2.2, 220bhp, 8000 rpm redline, MT6, LSD, Navi and Tech package you would NOT be bitching at all about the Civic... because you would have such an ILX-S...
Me too. After all, I've owned a few Civic Si's.. but we've owned every fast version of the Integra/RSX-S since the second week they sold them. OK- no ITR, but we tried.. oh did we try to get one!!!
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Stien Azani
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..it's hard to say that it's completely Ito fault on the '12 Civic... downsized (even new Corolla getting smaller) and simplified design maybe yes...but the interior material, the sound deadening, power train, equipment level standard maybe it's a decision by AHM.. who knows..as far as the things goes, Honda Japan do let regional management to do certain decision...
previously, it said that the ILX was develop by Acura in USA...but the exterior was by design by the trio Japanese in Japan...same goes to Acura CSX was design by Acura? and then Honda Japan made that as Asia Civic?..come on guys...all core model absolutely come from Honda Japan Studio..so we are absolute not knowing the decision was made by whom..because in the end we all are the blogger who can express anything..and to pretend to knowing everything..
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TonyEX
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Double J wrote:
TonyE wrote:
The mistakes in marketing also need addressing. I think Ito did not address that much since he was likely up to his armpits with the Credit Crunch and the Fascist Obama EPA. Which, btw, is the wild card.
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I see what you did there...I guess you are not aware that Fascist's are anti-Liberal. btw the EPA was started by a Republican right? It seems that every manufacturer is still able to make sports cars and high horsepower engines while keeping emissions in check. I believe one of the points of this thread is Honda's lack of commitment in this regard.
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Fascists are national socialists which by definition are leftists.
Communists are international socialists which also by definition makes them leftists.
Right Wing Dictatorships are not fascist, they are be totalitarian yes, but are NOT fascist.
People have misused the word fascist as if it meant a Right Wing totalitarian which it is not.
All fascists are totalitarian.
Not all totalitarians are fascist.
Of course, the meaning of liberal has also been taken over... today Liberal is supposed to mean Progressive which is Socialist.
Years ago, liberals were not progressives. In fact, years ago the GOP was made up of American Liberals!
The current EPA is by pure definition a fascist agency.
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WingZ
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P54 wrote:
Chocs wrote:
WingZ wrote:
It was fully developed and then ITO pulled the plug on Fuqui's baby.
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I thought it was Fukui who pulled the plug.
Acura NSX Canceled Due To CarpocalypseHonda Chairman Takeo Fukui has announced the cancellation of the V10-powered Acura NSX effective immediately as a result of the Carpocalypse and a desire to focus on green technologies.
Honda Officially Cancels Development of V10-Powered NSX Successor
To the bitter disappointment of sports car fans, the latest victim of the global economic recession is the next-generation Honda / Acura NSX supercar which has been canned. The announcement was made today by Honda CEO Takeo Fukui at his end-of-year speech. "The development of the NSX successor model equipped with V10 engine will be cancelled," said Takeo Fukui.
It also seems like some people blame Ito for the Crosstour and ZDX when they were being developed before his time as CEO. Poor guy.
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Some people on this forum seem to blame Ito for everything wrong with Honda. They also blame him for the CR-Z, also developed before his time. Instead recognize that Ito was behind the NSX and MDX and the new NSX to be.
Besides Honda is not run like a one-man show. They also have a board. The President announces what the board has agreed upon.
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Ito is/was not behind the new NSX. He didn't want another NSX even if it was a hybrid. If you can tell where you found that info I'll retract but I remember him not wanting any sports car period.
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HONDA AFVM
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sadlerau wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
It's so confusing.
What do you mean by 'the racing version of' ASCC???
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The HSV race car is a "silhouette" version of the road going new "halo" car Honda/Acura was developing before the "Global Financial Crisis" hit. The "halo" car, or NSX successor as Honda called it, was based on the ASCC concept car first shown in 2007.
And you though you were confused before :)
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This car was ready, they had the go from Japan and had 10 models testing in the US. It was not a go in the US tho, the "Insiders" I talk about often fought this car all the way to Japan, then the 2008 "Global Financial Crisis" hit and panic struck from the top down, the insiders took it upon them selves to come up with the current car, PUSHED it to the top and basically forced ITO to make the choice, they were going to leak the car to the public and make ITO explain what it was, or have him announce it........
Of course this is all hear say, but the source, more then one is pretty strong and the respect the NSX held was going to be taken away if that other car took it's place, not saying that car would have been a bad car, but it would have made a better "LEGEND" Coupe............So the NSX servivers went to work to save the car........and they did a HELL of a job........
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WongKN
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
....
This car was ready, they had the go from Japan and had 10 models testing in the US. It was not a go in the US tho, the "Insiders" I talk about often fought this car all the way to Japan, then the 2008 "Global Financial Crisis" hit and panic struck from the top down, the insiders took it upon them selves to come up with the current car, PUSHED it to the top and basically forced ITO to make the choice, they were going to leak the car to the public and make ITO explain what it was, or have him announce it........
Of course this is all hear say, but the source, more then one is pretty strong and the respect the NSX held was going to be taken away if that other car took it's place, not saying that car would have been a bad car, but it would have made a better "LEGEND" Coupe............So the NSX servivers went to work to save the car........and they did a HELL of a job........
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And THEY are the one who REALLY deserves the credit and recognition. Only problem being that it is likely they will forever be the 'unsung hero', the 'forgotten solder'.
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330R
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
This car was ready, they had the go from Japan and had 10 models testing in the US.
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Didn't Colin or someone say the ELS sound system was in the process of being approved, and that was one of the last components to be finalized?
HONDA AFVM wrote:
...the insiders took it upon them selves to come up with the current car, PUSHED it to the top and basically forced ITO to make the choice, they were going to leak the car to the public and make ITO explain what it was, or have him announce it........
Of course this is all hear say, but the source, more then one is pretty strong
...
and they did a HELL of a job........
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I love those guys. Major thanks to them for such a gutsy thing. I hope there are more of these gutsy, daring maneuvers in the future from more people inside the company.
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Torque
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TonyE wrote:
Torque wrote:
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Fit: I love this car. It is the most versatile and most Honda like car in the lineup today. Flexible seating, interior ergonomics, low price point, and great fuel efficiency. My only con is the engine. It is too low on power at the bottom end and tops out pretty quickly. I did a road trip from Washington, DC to Pittsburgh and the car with a full load had a hard time pulling off of the on ramp getting up to highway speed. My only negative. If this had a version of the 2.0 engine with 160 hp I would buy the car immediately.
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TonyE, I did check out the TSX wagon in Vortex Blue Pearl. Great car, but I'm not sure I am a wagon guy.
I am holding out for news about the Accord. Like you, I am going to be cautiously optimistic until real news filters out. That it will be more compact, have the ED (still can't get over that goofy name) engines in it and be more efficient are at least something to hold out some hope for. I am also not keeping my shopping list confined to Honda/Acura. The best car that meets my needs gets my money. I have a pretty wide price range from the 20s to the mid 30s so it will be interesting to see who I wind up buying from this time around.
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If you're not much in a hurry then the Accord will be in your time frame.
Who knows, maybe AHM might decide to offer the ILX K24 with NAVI and Tech, so that will be a nice package.
Time could be on your side if you can wait.
I pulled the trigger in the TSX Wagon (Blue!) because we suddenly lost the CRV and I needed something that I could carry stuff. It will also be gone from the line up and, unless the new Accord offers a wagon, the only way to get a box will be a CUV... and I'm sort of tired of that. I don't mind the wagon shape, I actually like it.
We also pulled the trigger in the Si because we needed one more car like six months ago.. Both of the TSX and Si are one year leases so we have lots of flexibility there.. and, honestly, I'm not that worried about the "negatives" on the Civic. I just think people wanted the 9th gen Civic to be an Integra which it almost was once (should have never been) and now people feel let down because they have Acura expectations for a Honda.
The Fit you drove.. was it MT or AT? The MT is much livelier at the expense of pulling 4K RPM at 80mph. But it moves fine otherwise. The only negative, IMHO, is that the MT Sport NAVI went away.. dumb move there. Interesting... when you say 160 bhp.. many times I've looked at our Fit and thought of it as a five door EP-3 with a stripped down interior. I loved our 03 EP-3, btw, even if almost everybody else hated it. I wish I had not sold it. ;-)
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The Accord is in my time frame. The good thing is I don't have a hard date set for when I will make a purchase. I'm thinking sometime before the end of the year but anything can happen. Not enough info is out about the Accord so I can't make any assumptions.
I passed on the idea of the ILX because I honestly can't see what is so smart about "smart luxury" with this car. For what is being offered the price point is ridiculous.
What I need is something that will be my new daily driver. I prefer hatches for the utility. I need four doors, something to make the commute tolerable without going into my daily bout of road rage, and comfortable with decent gas mileage. I also need something where I can throw my two dogs in, the girlfriend in the front and some gear when we want to go away for the weekend. The dog's claws have been doing a number on the leather in the RSX-S. Not looking for 0-60 numbers or anything like that, this will be an everyday car that will have to do several duties.
The Fit I drove was a Sport w/ auto. In the city in regular stop and go traffic it was great. But like I said, trying to gain speed getting into full speed traffic from an on ramp was pretty bad.
Funny you should mention the EP-3. My pick of a K20 with 160 hp wasn't coincidental either. With that engine in the Fit I see it as a natural step from the Fit line to the Civic. If Honda had an optional Fit engine at those specs it would still leave a 40 hp gap between it and the Si. Like I said, if the Fit came with a K20 - 160 hp engine, I would buy it right now.
I haven't had the chance but when I have the time I am going to check out the Mazda CX-5 Touring w/ cloth interior and sunroof. Buyer reviews have been pretty great with the only gripe being that it needs some more horses under the hood. Otherwise, handling is typical Mazda which is a good thing.
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P54
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WingZ wrote:
P54 wrote:
Chocs wrote:
WingZ wrote:
It was fully developed and then ITO pulled the plug on Fuqui's baby.
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I thought it was Fukui who pulled the plug.
Acura NSX Canceled Due To CarpocalypseHonda Chairman Takeo Fukui has announced the cancellation of the V10-powered Acura NSX effective immediately as a result of the Carpocalypse and a desire to focus on green technologies.
Honda Officially Cancels Development of V10-Powered NSX Successor
To the bitter disappointment of sports car fans, the latest victim of the global economic recession is the next-generation Honda / Acura NSX supercar which has been canned. The announcement was made today by Honda CEO Takeo Fukui at his end-of-year speech. "The development of the NSX successor model equipped with V10 engine will be cancelled," said Takeo Fukui.
It also seems like some people blame Ito for the Crosstour and ZDX when they were being developed before his time as CEO. Poor guy.
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Some people on this forum seem to blame Ito for everything wrong with Honda. They also blame him for the CR-Z, also developed before his time. Instead recognize that Ito was behind the NSX and MDX and the new NSX to be.
Besides Honda is not run like a one-man show. They also have a board. The President announces what the board has agreed upon.
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Ito is/was not behind the new NSX. He didn't want another NSX even if it was a hybrid. If you can tell where you found that info I'll retract but I remember him not wanting any sports car period.
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So it is OK to blame Ito for 'failed" new models that either started before his time as President or was an AHM deal, while denying he is behind the new NSX that he himself introduced and said he was committed to, even to build a new factory in USA for the production of it?
Ito says he will build NSX sports car: ... "it is my wish that Honda engineers have the experience of developing a sports car like the NSX in future."
"You can't depend on a high power output to call a car sporty anymore," Ito said. "The original NSX was about high power, but also good driving performance, and today power-to-weight is what we have to focus on. The NSX was known for its aluminum body, so when we develop our new sports car, we don't want to copy Ferrari for power, but to also chase efficiency as well."
http://www.insideline.com/acura/nsx/honda-ceo-confirms-nsx-successor-is-in-the-pipeline.html
"In this new era, even as we focus on the fun-to-drive spirit of the NSX, I think a supercar must respond positively to environmental responsibilities," said Takanobu Ito, president and CEO of Honda Motor Co. in a statement.
http://www.insideline.com/acura/nsx/acura-nsx-bound-for-production-in-three-years-2012-detroit-auto-show.html
What Ito said in regard to a smaller sports car:
Q. Honda’s sports car focus at the moment is concentrating on electric power. Does that mean the S2000 will be the last Honda sports car with a petrol engine?
A. What we want to do is show that driving an EV can be enjoyable. That’s why we took the challenge of making a sports car out of an EV. We are studying whether to put the EV-STER to market. But maybe we could have an internal combustion engine with that styling.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/motorshows/tokyo-motor-show/275950/takanobo_ito_qa.html
The electric version of the EV-STER has a 100-mile range with a top speed of 100mph, according to Honda. Note use of the phrase “electric version” – Honda CEO Takanobu Ito told Auto Motor und Sport that a classic gasoline-powered version of the car is also potentially viable.
http://gas2.org/2011/12/15/honda-designs-electric-sports-car-considers-gasoline-version/
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CR-V9
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WingZ, if you believe that small article then you believe whatever you want to believe, I guess. Like you, I don't know what really happened from looking from outside. But my point is I'm not blaming Mr. Ito nor Mr. Fukui.
As Mr fukui had to call for an emergency board meeting to discuss killing F1 as he stated. he couldn't have done it(killing) by himself. He needed board's approvement to do so. That's how Soichiro and Fujisawa wanted to set upwhere no one person could decide something big for a whole company for his own personal ego, greed and vanity.
Of course, I don't know what their CEO can do or can't do as Soichiro said at the same time that you only need one general to fight a war.(one chief and many indians)
Do I think Mr. Ito killed the V8 Legendo, too? Do I think Mr. Ito close a factory in England for months, decided to give early retirement progarms to many, layed off part timers, shifted workload amongst factories ... etc?
mr. Ito became the CEO on June, more than 6 months prior to that on December, V10 NSX was killed off. Mr. Fukui was the CEO of HMC at the time and Mr Ito was a ceo of R&D. Do I think Honda had messed up their corporate hierarchy? Could Mr. Ito cancelled it against Mr. Fukui's wish? That don't make no sense to me.
However I did hear that Mr. Ito walked down to the project's room to tell them personally the bad news.
From hindsight today one might say Honda over reacted to Lehman crisis. Their internal economic forcast/analysis said it could have been once in 100 years financial crisis, according to an article from JP business magazine.
And I'll repeat one more time. Mr.Fukui decided to delay his planned retirement to cutback all those measures. Because he said that he had been the ceo for a while to be able to do those unpopular things with established authority than a newly elected junior CEO. And he also said that he wanted to hand over to Ito so that he could start from a fresh sheat of paper.
Do you think he wanted to end his legacy to be the man who killed F1, the man who killed V10 NSX, the man who could have ruined Honda financially?
It may sound strange to you but I'm defending Mr. Fukui, here. He extended his retirement and did all those things for Ito was somewhat honorable thing to do. (rant off)
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Double J
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TonyE wrote:
Double J wrote:
TonyE wrote:
The mistakes in marketing also need addressing. I think Ito did not address that much since he was likely up to his armpits with the Credit Crunch and the Fascist Obama EPA. Which, btw, is the wild card.
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I see what you did there...I guess you are not aware that Fascist's are anti-Liberal. btw the EPA was started by a Republican right? It seems that every manufacturer is still able to make sports cars and high horsepower engines while keeping emissions in check. I believe one of the points of this thread is Honda's lack of commitment in this regard.
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Fascists are national socialists which by definition are leftists.
Communists are international socialists which also by definition makes them leftists.
Right Wing Dictatorships are not fascist, they are be totalitarian yes, but are NOT fascist.
People have misused the word fascist as if it meant a Right Wing totalitarian which it is not.
All fascists are totalitarian.
Not all totalitarians are fascist.
Of course, the meaning of liberal has also been taken over... today Liberal is supposed to mean Progressive which is Socialist.
Years ago, liberals were not progressives. In fact, years ago the GOP was made up of American Liberals!
The current EPA is by pure definition a fascist agency.
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I'd like to talk politics but I prefer to keep my views in the political lounge.
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duncan
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TonyE wrote:
Fascists are national socialists which by definition are leftists.
Communists are international socialists which also by definition makes them leftists.
Right Wing Dictatorships are not fascist, they are be totalitarian yes, but are NOT fascist.
People have misused the word fascist as if it meant a Right Wing totalitarian which it is not.
All fascists are totalitarian.
Not all totalitarians are fascist.
Of course, the meaning of liberal has also been taken over... today Liberal is supposed to mean Progressive which is Socialist.
Years ago, liberals were not progressives. In fact, years ago the GOP was made up of American Liberals!
The current EPA is by pure definition a fascist agency.
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Fascism, while nationalistic, has nothing to do with socialism. In fact, fascism is politically syncretic, meaning it defines itself as outside or beyond the left-right political spectrum. Moreover, fascism opposes conservatism, liberalism and socialism (both communism and social democracy). Fascism seeks a national community based on purity in ancestry, culture and genetics that is enforced through militarism and violence. Fascists advocate regulated market economy and regulated private property and private enterprise, and only resort to state enterprise where private enterprise fails.
You must be confused with "National Socialism" (i.e.: Nazism)--notwithstanding the term "Socialism" and that Nazis initially were anti-capitalist, Nazism was actually created to draw public support (especially amongst the working class) away from communism.
While you're right that not all totalitarians are fascists, I fail to see how the EPA has anything to do with either socialism or fascism unless the EPA has started to enforce its rules and regulations through eugenics and military violence.
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CVCC1974
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Torque
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CVCC1974 wrote:
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"Hands off approach, that's how I run a company."
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RocketRon
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I did expect this subject to become so political...
My main objective was to generate interest for a limited production version of the HSV-010 with a detuned version of the HR10EG or MF408S. I think this car could become a "Legend". So perhaps that name is more fitting than NSX.
Considering Honda's current strategy, this is just wishful thinking on my part:
Honda Legend Coupe 2015
Chassis: Street legal HSV-010
Engine: HR10EG (CAFE requirements version)
Configuration: Liquid-cooled, naturally aspirated, longitudinal V8
V angle (°) 90
Valve train: Gear-driven DOHC: 2 intake and 2 exhaust valves per cylinder
Displacement (cm3): 3,397
Bore × stroke (mm): 93.0 × 62.5
Redline: 9500 RPM est
Maximum output: 500HP est
Maximum torque: 400lb-ft est
Fuel Lead-free premium gasoline
Lubrication: Dry sump
or
Engine: MF408S (Cafe requirements version)
Layout: 90 degree V8 Naturally Aspirated
Displacement: 4000cc
Horsepower: 590hp / 9500rpm
Torque: 383lb/ft / 7500rpm
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TonyEX
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duncan wrote:
TonyE wrote:
Fascists are national socialists which by definition are leftists.
Communists are international socialists which also by definition makes them leftists.
Right Wing Dictatorships are not fascist, they are be totalitarian yes, but are NOT fascist.
People have misused the word fascist as if it meant a Right Wing totalitarian which it is not.
All fascists are totalitarian.
Not all totalitarians are fascist.
Of course, the meaning of liberal has also been taken over... today Liberal is supposed to mean Progressive which is Socialist.
Years ago, liberals were not progressives. In fact, years ago the GOP was made up of American Liberals!
The current EPA is by pure definition a fascist agency.
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Fascism, while nationalistic, has nothing to do with socialism. In fact, fascism is politically syncretic, meaning it defines itself as outside or beyond the left-right political spectrum. Moreover, fascism opposes conservatism, liberalism and socialism (both communism and social democracy). Fascism seeks a national community based on purity in ancestry, culture and genetics that is enforced through militarism and violence. Fascists advocate regulated market economy and regulated private property and private enterprise, and only resort to state enterprise where private enterprise fails.
You must be confused with "National Socialism" (i.e.: Nazism)--notwithstanding the term "Socialism" and that Nazis initially were anti-capitalist, Nazism was actually created to draw public support (especially amongst the working class) away from communism.
While you're right that not all totalitarians are fascists, I fail to see how the EPA has anything to do with either socialism or fascism unless the EPA has started to enforce its rules and regulations through eugenics and military violence.
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I'm afraid that you are wrong in that you equate fascism with Naziism. Although it is true that Nazis were fascist, not all fascists are Nazis.
German fascism (the Nazis) was copied from Mussolini's because the German Socialists admired his political ideas.
(I won't go into the link with communism... too long, but yes, they are all closely related).
Fascism was invented by Mussolini who was a national socialist. The original one, btw. He was the one who brought out the fasces as a symbol of his party which was nationalistic, socialist and totalitarian.
Thus, Mussolini's fascism was nationalistic, totalitarian and socialist. A Leftist movement.
The American Progressive movement is a socialist movement. A national socialist movement too. Not so "hard" totalitarian but still a nanny government that tells people what to do "for their own good". So it does qualify as "soft" fascist.
The current EPA is acting in a very totalitarian manner and is controlled by American Progressives.
Ergo, the EPA is fascist.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-fasces.htm
I think was really muddies the water is Francisco Franco. Although commonly called a "fascist", and although he used the Fasces as a symbol of power, he was not a socialist, he was actually a conservative right wing reactionary to the Spanish Left. But he was called a fascist by guilt of association with Germany and Italy.
Same thing with Pinochet.
Both Franco and Augusto Pinochet were Right Wing Totalitarians, not fascists. Military generals who by force stepped in to attempt to forestall political chaos. (In the case of Franco, he created a full fledged Civil War! Ooops! ).
At some point, Juan Peron could have been accused of being borderline fascist... although he was not a real socialist, more of a populist. That's why Franco accepted him in Spain with open arms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism
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Double J
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RocketRon wrote:
I did expect this subject to become so political...
My main objective was to generate interest for a limited production version of the HSV-010 with a detuned version of the HR10EG or MF408S. I think this car could become a "Legend". So perhaps that name is more fitting than NSX.
Considering Honda's current strategy, this is just wishful thinking on my part:
Honda Legend Coupe 2015
Chassis: Street legal HSV-010
Engine: HR10EG (CAFE requirements version)
Configuration: Liquid-cooled, naturally aspirated, longitudinal V8
V angle (°) 90
Valve train: Gear-driven DOHC: 2 intake and 2 exhaust valves per cylinder
Displacement (cm3): 3,397
Bore × stroke (mm): 93.0 × 62.5
Redline: 9500 RPM est
Maximum output: 500HP est
Maximum torque: 400lb-ft est
Fuel Lead-free premium gasoline
Lubrication: Dry sump
or
Engine: MF408S (Cafe requirements version)
Layout: 90 degree V8 Naturally Aspirated
Displacement: 4000cc
Horsepower: 590hp / 9500rpm
Torque: 383lb/ft / 7500rpm
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I like the way you think but I find it highly doubtful that we will see a V8 powered road car in the future. I would like to see a reasonably priced HSV maybe in the TSX/TL price range with a 300+hp V6 in RWD. I'm just guessing but I think Nissan sells a boat load of G37/370Z's and Honda should go after a slice of that market. If my memory serves me though I thought I read an article where someone from Honda said they will not do a FR car like the S2000?
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JMU R1
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Torque wrote:
Funny you should mention the EP-3. My pick of a K20 with 160 hp wasn't coincidental either. With that engine in the Fit I see it as a natural step from the Fit line to the Civic. If Honda had an optional Fit engine at those specs it would still leave a 40 hp gap between it and the Si. Like I said, if the Fit came with a K20 - 160 hp engine, I would buy it right now.
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Spot on. A 160 hp Fit Si would be a blockbuster success if they decided to make one. Seems like a can't lose proposition. Don't know what price they could bring such a car in at but if it were about $19k I think they'd have a winner.
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WingZ
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P54 wrote:
WingZ wrote:
P54 wrote:
Chocs wrote:
WingZ wrote:
It was fully developed and then ITO pulled the plug on Fuqui's baby.
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I thought it was Fukui who pulled the plug.
Acura NSX Canceled Due To CarpocalypseHonda Chairman Takeo Fukui has announced the cancellation of the V10-powered Acura NSX effective immediately as a result of the Carpocalypse and a desire to focus on green technologies.
Honda Officially Cancels Development of V10-Powered NSX Successor
To the bitter disappointment of sports car fans, the latest victim of the global economic recession is the next-generation Honda / Acura NSX supercar which has been canned. The announcement was made today by Honda CEO Takeo Fukui at his end-of-year speech. "The development of the NSX successor model equipped with V10 engine will be cancelled," said Takeo Fukui.
It also seems like some people blame Ito for the Crosstour and ZDX when they were being developed before his time as CEO. Poor guy.
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Some people on this forum seem to blame Ito for everything wrong with Honda. They also blame him for the CR-Z, also developed before his time. Instead recognize that Ito was behind the NSX and MDX and the new NSX to be.
Besides Honda is not run like a one-man show. They also have a board. The President announces what the board has agreed upon.
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Ito is/was not behind the new NSX. He didn't want another NSX even if it was a hybrid. If you can tell where you found that info I'll retract but I remember him not wanting any sports car period.
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So it is OK to blame Ito for 'failed" new models that either started before his time as President or was an AHM deal, while denying he is behind the new NSX that he himself introduced and said he was committed to, even to build a new factory in USA for the production of it?
Ito says he will build NSX sports car: ... "it is my wish that Honda engineers have the experience of developing a sports car like the NSX in future."
"You can't depend on a high power output to call a car sporty anymore," Ito said. "The original NSX was about high power, but also good driving performance, and today power-to-weight is what we have to focus on. The NSX was known for its aluminum body, so when we develop our new sports car, we don't want to copy Ferrari for power, but to also chase efficiency as well."
http://www.insideline.com/acura/nsx/honda-ceo-confirms-nsx-successor-is-in-the-pipeline.html
"In this new era, even as we focus on the fun-to-drive spirit of the NSX, I think a supercar must respond positively to environmental responsibilities," said Takanobu Ito, president and CEO of Honda Motor Co. in a statement.
http://www.insideline.com/acura/nsx/acura-nsx-bound-for-production-in-three-years-2012-detroit-auto-show.html
What Ito said in regard to a smaller sports car:
Q. Honda’s sports car focus at the moment is concentrating on electric power. Does that mean the S2000 will be the last Honda sports car with a petrol engine?
A. What we want to do is show that driving an EV can be enjoyable. That’s why we took the challenge of making a sports car out of an EV. We are studying whether to put the EV-STER to market. But maybe we could have an internal combustion engine with that styling.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/motorshows/tokyo-motor-show/275950/takanobo_ito_qa.html
The electric version of the EV-STER has a 100-mile range with a top speed of 100mph, according to Honda. Note use of the phrase “electric version” – Honda CEO Takanobu Ito told Auto Motor und Sport that a classic gasoline-powered version of the car is also potentially viable.
http://gas2.org/2011/12/15/honda-designs-electric-sports-car-considers-gasoline-version/
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Again where have you ever heard or read Ito was behind it? You were around in 09 when Ito first came to power yet you keep using after the fact articles from 2011 instead of the 09-10 articles. By this time it was in his face that everyone wanted another super car from Honda and after the success of the HSV he relented. You know this.
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WingZ
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CR-V9 wrote:
WingZ, if you believe that small article then you believe whatever you want to believe, I guess. Like you, I don't know what really happened from looking from outside. But my point is I'm not blaming Mr. Ito nor Mr. Fukui.
As Mr fukui had to call for an emergency board meeting to discuss killing F1 as he stated. he couldn't have done it(killing) by himself. He needed board's approvement to do so. That's how Soichiro and Fujisawa wanted to set upwhere no one person could decide something big for a whole company for his own personal ego, greed and vanity.
Of course, I don't know what their CEO can do or can't do as Soichiro said at the same time that you only need one general to fight a war.(one chief and many indians)
Do I think Mr. Ito killed the V8 Legendo, too? Do I think Mr. Ito close a factory in England for months, decided to give early retirement progarms to many, layed off part timers, shifted workload amongst factories ... etc?
mr. Ito became the CEO on June, more than 6 months prior to that on December, V10 NSX was killed off. Mr. Fukui was the CEO of HMC at the time and Mr Ito was a ceo of R&D. Do I think Honda had messed up their corporate hierarchy? Could Mr. Ito cancelled it against Mr. Fukui's wish? That don't make no sense to me.
However I did hear that Mr. Ito walked down to the project's room to tell them personally the bad news.
From hindsight today one might say Honda over reacted to Lehman crisis. Their internal economic forcast/analysis said it could have been once in 100 years financial crisis, according to an article from JP business magazine.
And I'll repeat one more time. Mr.Fukui decided to delay his planned retirement to cutback all those measures. Because he said that he had been the ceo for a while to be able to do those unpopular things with established authority than a newly elected junior CEO. And he also said that he wanted to hand over to Ito so that he could start from a fresh sheat of paper.
Do you think he wanted to end his legacy to be the man who killed F1, the man who killed V10 NSX, the man who could have ruined Honda financially?
It may sound strange to you but I'm defending Mr. Fukui, here. He extended his retirement and did all those things for Ito was somewhat honorable thing to do. (rant off)
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Well that small article as you call it is quoting him and even they said they were surprised he said it. It's tradition for the incoming President to start making changes before actually assuming and that's what Ito himself said he did.
Here's more proof again from Ito himself
"And what of the top end Hondas?
Ito ruled out any launch of the Acura brand in Europe, to challenge Lexus and the newly launched Infiniti. He also scotched rumours of a planned new-generation NSX, even a hybrid one.
Fuel-cell cars, like the FCX, will continue to be leased rather than sold outright – until Honda can mass develop the tech to be available at a more affordable price."
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/Industry-News/Hondas-future-small-cars-but-no-NSX-or-Acura-for-Europe/
Again yes he cancelled the V8 stuff as in the article you can see his focus was small cars. It's his call. I like Fukui and what he started I just wish he'd have finished the HSC before Ito took over. Also the ASCC since I'm greedy lol
If you and P54 go back to Ito articles in 09/10 even the Honda corporate meeting minutes you'll see a very different picture than what we see today. I assumed all Honda fans knew this.
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CR-V9
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I give up. You win, WingZ.
Ito is antichrist.
I don't miss the V10 NSX but I so miss the V8 Legendo, though.
But don't forget the financial crisis is not over, yet. Banks are still too big to fail and Europe is still in financial crisis. What if Greece or better yet Spain exit Euro? I'm not a bank specialitst and we have our own resident bank specialists. So I'll just go away.
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Mr. Taggart
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Torque wrote:
CVCC1974 wrote:
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"Hands off approach, that's how I run a company."
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Nah, He's leading from Behind..
Makes for great results.
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P54
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WingZ wrote:
| Again where have you ever heard or read Ito was behind it? You were around in 09 when Ito first came to power yet you keep using after the fact articles from 2011 instead of the 09-10 articles. By this time it was in his face that everyone wanted another super car from Honda and after the success of the HSV he relented. You know this. |
If you read the bold in the post above you can read what he says. If I use the wrong word, I apologize, (English is second language), when I said he is behind it I meant the meaning that he announced it, supports it and is committed to it. I never tried to imply he was the man that engineered it or initiated its development. Honda is run by a board and never is one man to blame, he just announces or take responsibility for choices Honda does, good or bad. Ito has said in public all the way he wants to make small, lightweight sports cars, with a green image,... when they make money to do it. What he said in 2011 is just a detailed confirmation of the direction announced in 2009.
Did you read this post from Danielgr?
1st) I trully believe your memory distorts reality Jeff, 'cause I still have Ito's 2009 interview recorded by you in in my desktop, and there is nothing like what you are saying here.
He said it pretty clear then, and as I've written so many times already, he has done nothing but to keep on his words (which is rare in nowadays extremely challenging and ever-changing market). In short Ito said back in 2009 on his first important public appearance (the one you recall face to face):
1) Honda needs 1st to get back on a solid financial track before thinking about anything else.
2) Emphasis would be put on fuel economy, relying not only on hybrids but also on a holistic approach including improvements in traditional powertrains, weight reductions, transmissions, etc.
3) He'd love to bring back sports cars, and they will come when the money is back.
4) When those come they won't be anything like those in the past, and will always aim at both performance and environmental friendliness. |
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WingZ
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CR-V9 wrote:
I give up. You win, WingZ.
Ito is antichrist.
I don't miss the V10 NSX but I so miss the V8 Legendo, though.
But don't forget the financial crisis is not over, yet. Banks are still too big to fail and Europe is still in financial crisis. What if Greece or better yet Spain exit Euro? I'm not a bank specialitst and we have our own resident bank specialists. So I'll just go away.
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Was never about winning anything. It's recent history and I was shocked people didn't/don't recall Ito's position from his very own mouth just three short years back.
Plus why does he have to be the anti christ?? He just changed his position. CEO's do it all the time. Even the article you used with Fukui said he (Fukui) made the "announcement" not the decision. The article I showed has Ito saying it was his "decision". He was proud of it.
The Civic , Fit and Accord guys were vehemently defending his position on this site saying the NSX wasn't necessary and Honda was doing what it had to to survive. To reverse themselves now and act like it's Ito's baby is preposterous.
I miss both as they would've been Hondas interpretation of some classic car formulas. Why are we bringing these other sky is falling situations into this? There have always been and always will be some type of world crisis.
Lastly why go away man it's just a discussion??
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HONDA AFVM
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330R wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
This car was ready, they had the go from Japan and had 10 models testing in the US.
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Didn't Colin or someone say the ELS sound system was in the process of being approved, and that was one of the last components to be finalized?
HONDA AFVM wrote:
...the insiders took it upon them selves to come up with the current car, PUSHED it to the top and basically forced ITO to make the choice, they were going to leak the car to the public and make ITO explain what it was, or have him announce it........
Of course this is all hear say, but the source, more then one is pretty strong
...
and they did a HELL of a job........
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I love those guys. Major thanks to them for such a gutsy thing. I hope there are more of these gutsy, daring maneuvers in the future from more people inside the company.
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I don't know anything about the ELS sound system, the car was not what the masses wanted to replace the NSX, so what was inside it didn't really matter I guess..........These guys/gals get real mystical when this subject comes up........it's almost like they think the phone is tapped, looking over their shoulder...........or a black modified Honda jet is hovering over them in super secret stealth mode listing in...........
I bet if they released it as an RLC ("C" for coupe) it would take on a WHOLE new light...........Think Audi S5...........
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lexusgs
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RocketRon wrote:
The Honda HSV-010 is currently competing in the GT500 series. It's the only non-production car in the series.
This car could have been the current NSX, equipped with a 10 000 RPM 3.4L NA V8, it would compete with Ferrari's 458. Great solution until the arrival of the NSX 2.0!
But alas, Honda did not make available:
"Had Honda decided to continue production of the Honda/Acura NSX, the HSV-010 GT would have been the next-generation model. However, the NSX was cancelled by Honda in an effort by the company to focus on mass-produced models instead of those manufactured in limited numbers."
http://www.worldcarfans.com/110011924085/honda-hsv-010-gt-officially-unleashed-initial-specs-announced
Is this stricly mass production strategy for real? I've downgraded my performance expectations for the NSX 2.0 until further notice.
Honda makes great reliable consumer cars so I could understand this new focus, but still...
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I think it was a very boneheaded move to kill the HSV. They should have just pushed it back a little further until the economy started picking up and maybe market it a little different. They sunk so much money into this completed car, engine, and transmission for it all to go to waste. All the public got were a few camo cars blowing by 911's with that great sounding V10 for all the development money they spent.
The HSV would not have been the next NSX, it would have simply been Honda's new high dollar sports car that also would have offered a new market for Honda, a high performance GT coupe. It would not have been called the NSX or meant the new NSX went front engined, it would have been a totally different car. They should have at least built them in limited numbers 1000 or so just to show what Honda can do and add some excitement to the Acura brand which really could use it.
Honda could have also went forward with the next NSX as the more focused mid engine sports car and showcasing the new powertrain. Imagine Acura offering a new NSX and also V10 GT coupe, imagine the new NSX having a special addition with the HSV's V10, and perhaps the hybrid system in a lower priced HSV. It would immediately give Acura excitement and respect and would boost sales and image. Instead Ito killed the HSV, V10, V8, possible S2000 replacement, the rwd RL and other rwd cars for Acura and has only focused on more downmarket lower end models.
The HSV or V10 would not have been cheap to bring to market but it would have opened up a whole level of product offerings-rwd, V10, V8s, etc and help improve and distinguish Acura's image. Instead we are getting this "Smart Luxury" nonsense which more or less means the same or even more downmarket and focusing on being "green" above anything else. We also got a bunch of duds like the Insight, Crosstour, CRZ, ZDX, beak grill, etc that were expensive mistakes and have cost the brand a lot of its image.
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RocketRon
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That's funny, you just repeated some of my previous posts in regards to the HSV-010/NSX2.0/LegendCoupe/RLC! Great minds think alike, I guess.
But I have to respectfully disagree in regards to the CR-Z being a bust, as an example, it won car of the year in New Zealand. Moreover, one could say it's ahead of the curb when it comes to fun hybrid cars.
NB The HSV-010 is equipped with a V8, not V10. And that HR10EG V8 sounds amazing
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JeffX
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RocketRon wrote:
That's funny, you just repeated some of my previous posts in regards to the HSV-010/NSX2.0/LegendCoupe/RLC! Great minds think alike, I guess.
But I have to respectfully disagree in regards to the CR-Z being a bust, as an example, it won car of the year in New Zealand. Moreover, one could say it's ahead of the curb when it comes to fun hybrid cars.
NB The HSV-010 is equipped with a V8, not V10. And that HR10EG V8 sounds amazing
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Yeah they used one of their racing designs for the HSV-010 but the roadgoing version had a freaking crazy 5.0L V-10. 550hp. It made me weep reading the SAE paper that Honda published on it. So much technology in that engine...
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