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Karl O.
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notyper wrote:I think some of the fundamentals are there. It looks decent. The interior is good. Sounds like the steering is good too.
I also don't think that the ride/handling/tire package is a problem on the Hybrid or 2.0. And I while it isn't as fast as I'd like, I don't think the K24 is a problem either - less on the ILX at least than it is on the Civic Si. |
I'm just gonna say that I had the same drivetrain in my '04 TSX for 7 years and I never felt it lacked for power. Even as I swapped back and forth between the TSX and the S2000, the TSX with the 6MT was fine. I monkeyed a little with the suspension and the brake pads but honestly tuning the engine crossed my mind but seemed pointless.
Where Acura missed on this is twofold.
1.) The hybrid and base powertrains are too weak with too little fuel economy benefit in return. The hybrid is simply overmatched and only 150 hp from a 2 liter? This is simply Acura doing things on the cheap. 10-15 hp more from the 2.0 wouldn't have been too difficult, but it would have required actually putting in engineering time on the R20 instead of hot swapping it from other models. |
Honda's hybrid's are basically pointless at this point in time. They're antiquated and under-performing. As far as the base engine goes- if that thing starts at $26k, you're gonna get $1500 off that without blinking and then you have a sub $25k compact with premium features and a premium label and better dealer service. There's a market for that, I think.
| 2.) The options and suspension package on the 2.4. This is your halo model. Less than 5%. Pretty much going to be bought only by enthusiasts who are really looking for the extra performance. So why deprive them of the cool options? And why stick with crappy tires, brake pads and suspension calibrations? Amp it up. Create a true halo model. The A-spec packages have always been very impressive for how they manage the ride/handling balance while offering a major improvement in performance and feedback. The TSX A-spec suspension moves it right into the top 3 handling FWD Honda/Acura products of all time IMO. So the talent is there. Give us that from the factory. Don't force someone to spend thousands of dollars after the fact. |
It's bogus that they want to sell you an A-Spec package and then offer to finance it along with the cost of the car- gee, thanks guys. I've been looking for an opportunity to buy 2 sets of struts, springs, wheels, and brake pads, all at 3x their actual cost, and then pay the labor to swap them.
To me it's like someone was cooking this really nice meal. Bought a bunch of nice ingredients. In this case, uprated sheet metal, uprated interior, high tech dampers and a really solid chassis platform. Then they forgot to salt the 2.0 (a little more power) and completely forgot the onions, peppers and spices on the 2.4 (tires, brakes, suspension and LSD).
The 2.0 comes out a little bland, but people will still eat it. But the guy who would have ordered the 2.4 was looking for something spicy and he got oatmeal instead.
SC
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Yeah and there is also the fact that for $30k you can get a GTI or a Focus ST 5 door hatch, both of which offer more utility, more tech stuff, and are more performance oriented. And a G25 sedan isn't that far away. It also sort of makes me think they were benchmarking an IS250 and trying to make a cheaper version, although why they would do that, I don't know.
Dunno. It looks the basics are there. It's fashionable to just complain about Honda because it's Honda, but I sort of like the ILX. Maybe driving it would change my mind, but I feel cautiously optimistic. As an eternal pessimist, that says something, I think.
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notyper
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I always look to Tire Rack to see if my impressions are shared with the general public.
In it's class, the Pilot HX MXM4 has the second most driven miles (some 48 million I believe) among surveyed Tire Rack customers. There are only two other tires even close mileage wise.
With all those miles, the opinion of owners carries even more weight, and they rank the MXM4 very low, 22nd in the class. Even if you take out some of the low volume or very new tires with limited mileage experience, it's still well outside the top 10. And the primary criticisms? Poor wet performance, poor snow performance, poor NVH. Same as what you are hearing here.
I don't know if most of those people are driving on OEM tires or store bought, but it sounds like the Pilot MXM4s are certainly well past their freshness date.
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danielavg1991
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I would buy an ILX. I love Honda and Acura vehicles... and I enjoy driving stick shift. Currently drive an 04 Accord V6 5AT which is still holding up excellently (wanted the 6MT, and was entirely okay with its purpose e.g. no LSD but there were none on the lots and was unwilling to wait). I learned to drive stick on a 97 Ford Escort... hardly a fast or sporty offering. Yet, running through the gears is enjoyable enough, even in a straight line. I like the greater sense of control. If i wanted an all-out sporty driving car as my highest priority, the Civic Si is there... although I would personally rather have an FR-S/BRZ 6MT for that particular purpose. I put a high value on exterior styling (hence, my choice of an Accord coupe over a sedan) and comfort for a premium car like the ILX, and I think the car is a beautifully styled Acura. It's also the right size for me, as I prefer smaller lighter cars for the sheer fact that they have less mass... which has other advantages besides canyon carving. I don't want a harsher "better handling" suspension if it would compromise its ride comfort, and I don't care for NAVI since I can buy a cheaper aftermarket unit for much less. I'm not an audiophile and don't pretend to be, so the absence of ELS is not a deal breaker. Homelink isn't necessary since my garage door opener has a remote I can place on my sun visor. The fact that this car has a 6MT and a bit more power than the base model is just icing on the cake, really... since it's priced the same as an ILX R20 premium. It seems to me like the ILX 6MT was not intended to be a performance halo model... it was merely intended to be the stick shift option. They might have thrown the K24 in there just to give it more punch in a straight line. I'm willing to give up a few MPG's for a little more straight line acceleration in my stick shift ILX. If I wanted maximum MPG, the hybrid is there. But the 6MT ILX was never supposed to be a Civic Si with a nicer interior. I think that's what Ikeda meant when he said it was no boy racer.
So then, since I actually like this car and would buy it, does that mean I'm not a real enthusiast? I could care less, to be honest. I enjoy sports cars... especially the purity and fun of cars like the S2000, miata, or FR-S/BRZ but I wouldn't want or need my Acura to be one of those cars. If i wanted a sports car, then I would buy one. To be honest, I'd be fine with an ILX R20 Premium 6MT (I want leather seats, HIDs,rear-camera) so having the K24 is just a nice treat for the same price. I'm 22 years old, and would definitely buy this car a few years down the road, when the time is right... I just hope they don't add direct injection before I buy one. I trust the port injected Honda engines for long term reliability much more than the unproven Earth Dreams DI engines that are on their way...
Now, how many customers like me are there? Who knows. I don't think this forum is a fair representation of the potential ILX 6MT buyers. Just seems like the car is not intended for many of you guys... it's intended for someone like me.
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owequitit
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Grace141 wrote:
VTEC_Inside wrote:
I think you are being too polite about the Pilot HX MXM4. Its a HORRIBLE tire as far as I'm concerned.
So so grip in the dry, and frightening in the rain.
If it were half the cost it would ALMOST be an ok tire with the exception of its horrible wet weather grip. Not to mention that it gets considerably worse as it wears down.
I replaced them with Yokohama Advan S4s on my RSX-S and the difference was insane. The Yokos were cheaper, ride smoother, and grip like no ones business.
What was left of my RSXs original tires a couple days before the Yokos went on: (I ran these about 2-3lbs below door sticker and they still wore like this. The only redeeming quality at this stage was that coupled with the Type R rear sway, the car would over-steer on dry asphalt.)
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First, the Tire Rack classifies the Advan S.4 as an Ultra High Performance All-Season tire whereas the Pilot HX MXM4 is a Grand Touring All-Season tire. No surprise there that grip would improve sharply.
Looking closer, I checked an '06 RSX-S and found the OEM size to be 215-45R17. The MXM4 in that size has a lower treadwear number than the Advan S.4. I've always believed that different sizes of a particular tire are simply different tires. Do you folks who are saying the MXM4 is a bad tire all have experience with it on the RSX or TL? Heck, maybe my experience was different due to SH-AWD but I doubt it. My guess is it's a combo of weight and tire patch.
For the RDX in the OEM 235-55R18 size there wasn't a Primacy available last fall. The highest Tire Rack-rated Grand Touring All-Season tire at that time was the Goodyear Assurance ComforTread Touring (I kid you not) in the comparable spec. I've had them on the RDX since last fall and found rain and snow grip to be similar to the MXM4 but noise to be slightly worse. And I don't care for how the Goodyears transmit road surface vibrations.
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We've had experience with them on our last 4 Accords (2002 EX-L V6, 2004 EX-L V6, 2006 EX-L V6, 2009 EX-L V6) and they are currently on my 2009 Si.
Honestly, I have to agree that they are pretty mediocre in just about every respect. The only thing I can't really complain about is that they wear for a decent amount of mileage (not great, but not horrible), and they seem to stay in balance pretty well. Other than that, they are really not hard to beat in just about every aspect.
I know in the case of my Si, it did OK on light snow and low traction conditions for the first 20K miles or so. Like I said, they weren't great, and they were far from the most capable winter weather all seasons I have had. However, this last winter they absolutely sucked. Traction was so bad, it was to the point where they would spin just taking off lightly from a stop. They also started to get very squirmy and unpredictable on cold, moist roads, and worse in snow and ice. Needless to say, they have about 44K on them now, and I will have to replace them before winter. That isn't bad mileage, but they degradation in all around performance is very noticable, and it wasn't stellar to begin with.
The other thing to consider is the fact that you can pick up an equivalent size set of "high performance" all seasons for less money, which makes it just that much more obvious that Honda made a glaring error with tire choice. I have a set of 15" Pilot Sport A/S tires for my Accord, and overall, I would be MUCH happier with them compared to the MXM4s I have dealt with. And they were less expensive.
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CR-V9
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I'm not defending Acura, here. I sound like I'm but not. It just sounds like it.
When a company has a contract with other company for OEMs they'd have limited choices, I'd guess. For example, the fact, MXM4 is one most sold tire probably means it is one of Michellen's OEM tires. Everybody has to make a living. Another example is a company car. You'd usually have limited selections with limited options. if you owned your own company then it's different, though.
(owe, MXM4 is still less expensive than Pilot Sport A/B in retail.)
Thus my saying that Acura should develop some kind of flexible dealer installed options available to their customers for price, eventually including different seats, steering wheel, etc. keep the base prices the same but they'd slowly option them up to BMW, Audi, MB level. Forget about the current or former Honda customers. Go after the BMW, Audi, MB and eventually Porsche, Ferrari's core customers. My 2cents.
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Grace141
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The comments about the MXM4 seem very similar to the ones about the XGT's on the Integras back in the '90s. I thought the XGT's on the '96 did okay but wet grip wasn't that great and the car was best kept in the garage during snow storms. I picked the Goodyears for the RDX last fall precisely because of the Tire Rack survey results and I'm glad I did if only because the set was over $300 cheaper than the Michelins. If the Primacy had been available in size I would have spent the extra money. I've had concerns about the tire wear patterns on the RDX due to the tire size so I've rotated them every 4k miles with good results.
I've struggled with tire choices over the years and I've had poor luck with upgrading to higher performance tires on the Hondas and Acuras we've had. To date the Bridgestone Turanzas I put on my '04 Accord have been the best pick I've made by far.
I doubt the summer tire option on the Si has ever been anything more than a good idea for the intended market - I'm sure it didn't increase sales or profits. I've never liked Honda's approach for dealer installed options such as alloy wheels due to how they try to price everything out. An order from College Hills Honda and a Saturday afternoon make much more sense. A sharp dealer would offer credit for tire takeoffs for the ILX or any car when a buyer wants a better tire. I've never asked about such a trade though because I assume I know the answer.
Finally, there were comments about the original MXV4 which I thought the two sets I've run over the years were pretty good. During the mid-'90s it was used on both the Accord and the 3-series in similar sizes and I had the chance to test drove both as well as the Integra on the XGT. The improved transition and cornering feel of the 3-series over the Accord with the same tire was pretty amazing. It's clear that Hondas and Acuras are designed to offer good road feel and handling but are compromised designs for drivetrain layout, comfort, FWD, weight, tire wear, etc. for the average customer. I suspect the ILX is no different and based on my experience with upgrading to high performance rated tires on my Integras and Accords I bet the ILX would handle only slightly better but with worse tire wear. To be critical of Honda, when BMW started offering AWD in the 3-series again I figured the AWD version would see worse handling than the RWD version due to balance but since it hasn't I'm left with Honda's suspension geometry being constrained by the width of the drivetrain. If that guess is correct there is zero chance any transverse engine Honda/Acura will offer handling similar to that of a 3-series.
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notyper
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I disagree with you 100% Grace141.
I too have upgraded a number of Honda products from OEM to aftermarket tires and have had great success in doing so - including from the XGTV4 in 1994 to a Dunlop SP8000. The change in grip was immense.
With respect to the MXM4, it's an old tire. Companies have made so many advances in tire compounding since it was introduced nearly 10 years ago. Hell, you can get Michelin's top of the line summer tire, the Pilot Super Sport (fabulous tire, have had them on my G37 for 2000 miles now, 1.04G cornering according to the driftbox) with a 30,000 mile warranty.
I have no doubt that you can get tires that will outlast and outperform the Pilot MXM4 in every way. I think the Primacy MXM4 does just that.
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HONDA AFVM
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sadlerau wrote:
Why would you be disappointed? The ILX was always going to be more "luxury" orientated than an Si, so you would expect it to be a "bit" slower in speed and handling. Does it ride better than an Si, have less noise and great creature comforts? If not, then yes I think you would have a right to be disappointed.
They are just raw numbers, it will be interesting to see how the ride/handling equation pans out in comparison with an Si??
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These numbers are really insignificant........Nobody who buys these cars will drive them this way, so really, it's just dream driving for most. I am an enthusiast, but I also want a car with a great stereo, can take an off ramp hard and has OK acceleration..........I am spoiled tho, I have a car with a monster V8, so I can get my FIX on SPEED anytime I want.......
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