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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.

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TonyEX
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AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 18:07
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OK... so middle class families have houses.

Houses usually are in suburbia.

(If your house is out in the country, ignore this post. You NEED an F150).

Suburban homes need stuff from the Home Depot, Costco, etc....

Suburban families tend to have kids.

Kids have stuff.

Ergo, suburban families need vehicles that can carry stuff and people.

Used to be a Station Wagon. Then it become an SUV. Later the minivan.

Now, with ObamaGas pricing, we need Station Wagons.

But, Honda no longer makes anything like it for the middle class.

The Element is gone, besides it was a not a five seater (duh!).
The CRV is expensivo and not really that big. It also sucks gas.
The Fit is too small for a family. Fine for a young couple or a single that doesn't mind the buzzy ride but not good enough for a family's main car.
The Odyssey... cough! cough! Have you priced one lately? I did, talk about $39K. Besides it drinks Obama's nectar.
The TSX Wagon is wonderful but it's also very expensive.. I built one yesterday, with Navi and it ran $37K and the leather wrapped steering wheel was an option! WTF? $37K and I have to pay 400++ bucks for a lousy leather wrapped steering wheel?
RDX, MDX, Crosstour, ZDX? Fellah! We're no Rockfellers here.

So.. here's the deal. I realize that Shawn said that $30K is not a lot of money for a car (GULP!) nowadays. But, for me, well, that's simply way out of line.

I don't blink at a $200 restaurant bill if the wine was fine and the food was warm.. but $30K for a car... something that I'll leave outside at the mercy of birds looking for a place to poop, or nincompoops to whap their door into my fender... No way, Jose... $30k is way out of line.

So, what I want -actually looks like I suddenly need now- is a station wagon. A Civic won't cut it, a Fit is too small.

Five doors, five seats, split rear seat, fun to drive, $25K with an R20/MT5/Navi.. roof rack. A Civic wagon, really. Good mileage, fun to drive... you know.. a nice HONDA CAR.

What do I get from AHM? CUVs, Pseudo truck, Expensive rides, sedans, two door coupes.

The Fit... too cheap... besides only AT in the US.

Hell... the only cars that fit the bill are Mazdas and I'm not going to get one for obvious reasons.

Damn it.... what's the matter at AHM? Why don't they bring in small wagon and five door hatches to the US?

Maybe AHM should fire all its American Marketing new hires and bring back some JDM BSME graduate from Tokyo University who smokes like a truck driver, drinks straight whiskey and understands the beauty and financial solidity of a small five seater, five door car with a 2.0L motor and an MT transmission.
garoto628
Profile for garoto628
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 18:50
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I know you mentioned the CR-V already, but its a wonderful vehicle. I think that is going to be my next car.
JimmyEats
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Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 19:02
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We're looking for the same car.

Maybe Neal can update the design of a Stream for us.
Chocs
Profile for Chocs
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 19:04
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Dunno if it's a true wagon, but I'd definitely consider the Stream if it were available. Apparently the 1.8L FF RSZ trim converts to ~25k USD (raw conversion from 1,990,000円 using google). I have no idea how to build one from the JP site... too much kanji.

Well, the car exists... It almost perfectly matches your description... the only thing Honda needs to do is bring it over the pond ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)


Obligational exterior photo. I'm sure you know about the Stream but for those who don't:



CR-V9
Profile for CR-V9
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 19:04
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So.. here's the deal. I realize that Shawn said that $30K is not a lot of money for a car (GULP!) nowadays. But, for me, well, that's simply way out of line.
+++1


some JDM BSME graduate from Tokyo University who smokes like a truck driver, drinks straight whiskey ...
Funny thing is that what they study at college is nothing to do with what they will do after, except engineering and science majors. But then again the former prime minister Kan was majored in nuclear physics. They go to government and run the government, not Honda, you silly.
Some used to but not sure nowdays ...

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 19:08
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Here's an article from 2006:

http://www.autobytel.com/mercedes-benz/s-class/2007/reviews/2007-mercedes-benz-s-class-first-drive-1075/

"Mercedes says the typical buyer of the completely redesigned 2007 S-Class pulls down around $300,000 a year."

The article makes a good point. If the $300k/year familes are well established as 1%-ers why do we see so many S-class M-B's on the roads? By the way, Warren Buffett drives, or is driven in, a Cadillac.

What is middle class anymore anyway? Do any of us Americans who consider ourselves as middle class really know how our annual income is determined? I've had no idea what my "annual income" has been for at least twenty years.

I've found that our friends with familes and good jobs can pretty much afford any car they want up to about a price of $50k US provided they have lived in their current homes for ten years or longer.

Lindy
Profile for Lindy
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 19:17
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PILOT. VCM V-6. Huge inside. Gas mileage is good for the class.
Lindy
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Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 19:18
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PILOT. VCM V-6. Huge inside. Gas mileage is good for the class.
Lindy
Profile for Lindy
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 19:23
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Or, Ridgeline. Super family friendly.
NealX
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Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 19:27
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That's interesting because:

"Hyundai CEO Krafcik says to expect more family vehicles from Hyundai, not trucks

Hyundai USA CEO John Krafcik hinted to a new entry into the six- and seven-passenger crossover segment. The affable exec pointed out that Hyundai needed to do a better job of attracting families to the brand, adding "it's probably fair to say we need more presence in the six and seven passenger crossover segment where we have the Veracruz now."

Hyundai is also expected to unveil a new Santa Fe at the New York Auto Show, so the automaker's CUV offerings are definitely looking up. As we reported back way back in June of 2010, we expect Hyundai to eventually offer a long-wheelbase three-row version of the new Santa Fe to replace the slow-selling Veracruz, though the automaker has yet to confirm this development.

But while Krafcik hints that some new CUV metal is coming, fans of the Italic H shouldn't hold their breath in anticipation of a pickup truck. Krafcik reportedly told Fox News that the automaker could build a truck if it wanted to, but the brand will instead focus on more efficient vehicles."

...check, please!
VTECyo!
Profile for VTECyo!
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 19:52
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I have to disagree with you. With an LX CR-V starting at $22,500, it's pretty reasonably priced (in my opinion). That's about $1,000 more than an Accord LX which doesn't have as many features. If Honda made an Accord wagon, it would undoubtedly be around $1,000 more than the equivalent Accord, if not more, and because wagons have sold poorly as of late, it would not make them a ton of money, nor would it appeal to a large group of people. Also, the CR-V doesn't exactly suck gas.... with EPA estimates of 23, 31 it's very close to a 4-cyl Accord which only gets 3 MPG more on the highway, and it does have quite a bit of space on the inside.

"Five doors, five seats, split rear seat, fun to drive, $25K with an R20/MT5/Navi.. roof rack. A Civic wagon, really. Good mileage, fun to drive... you know.. a nice HONDA CAR."
So you want a Civic wagon, but it's doubtful that a wagon version of the Civic would have as much room as the CR-V, which you say is too small...I think that the CR-V really has everything you want except for a manual, and maybe a bit more fun to drive prowess.
NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 20:11
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Not this?

atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 20:14
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VTECyo! wrote:
I have to disagree with you. With an LX CR-V starting at $22,500, it's pretty reasonably priced (in my opinion). That's about $1,000 more than an Accord LX which doesn't have as many features. If Honda made an Accord wagon, it would undoubtedly be around $1,000 more than the equivalent Accord, if not more, and because wagons have sold poorly as of late, it would not make them a ton of money, nor would it appeal to a large group of people. Also, the CR-V doesn't exactly suck gas.... with EPA estimates of 23, 31 it's very close to a 4-cyl Accord which only gets 3 MPG more on the highway, and it does have quite a bit of space on the inside.

"Five doors, five seats, split rear seat, fun to drive, $25K with an R20/MT5/Navi.. roof rack. A Civic wagon, really. Good mileage, fun to drive... you know.. a nice HONDA CAR."
So you want a Civic wagon, but it's doubtful that a wagon version of the Civic would have as much room as the CR-V, which you say is too small...I think that the CR-V really has everything you want except for a manual, and maybe a bit more fun to drive prowess.



+1

The sales figures pretty much confirm what VTECyo! is saying. Among the middle class I see widespread adoption of the CR-V as the family wagon. Even the affluent in my area will buy a loaded CR-V (more comfy than the old RDX...), though I think the new RDX changes things a lot.

Does anyone remember those old 5-door Civics from about 25 years ago?

I think that's what the CR-V morphed into. CR-V is based off the same platform as the Civic. No surprise that Honda would want to CUV-ize the Civic wagon. Personally though, I would really like the Stream. Lower to the ground than a CR-V, lighter, and without the 4WD. And +1 for the manual transmission.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 20:18
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Neal wrote:
Not this?




Neal.. God Bless You... really...

If only YOU were head of Marketing at AHM... Imagine... Civic Si Wagons for all of us.

We're soul brothers on this car.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 20:22
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Lindy wrote:
PILOT. VCM V-6. Huge inside. Gas mileage is good for the class.



Not good enough.. for that size, I'd go for the Odyssey which offers much better efficiency and road manners.

But still, these are BIG vehicles... I don't need | want 4400+ lbs of mass.
JimmyEats
Profile for JimmyEats
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 20:29
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Neil, that looks good, but somehow I think AHM would mess it up. It'd end up looking like a Civic Crosstour, if they designed it.


I remember the tall wagon Civic's with AWD. Maybe that's what TonyE wants. You could probably put a 2.0 engine in one.


I think the CRV loses any sportiness that a Civic wagon could have. Plus the added weight kills the mpg compared to a Civic.

Mazda3 hatches are close, but not large enough inside for a family. I know Honda could do better.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 20:32
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
VTECyo! wrote:
I have to disagree with you. With an LX CR-V starting at $22,500, it's pretty reasonably priced (in my opinion). That's about $1,000 more than an Accord LX which doesn't have as many features. If Honda made an Accord wagon, it would undoubtedly be around $1,000 more than the equivalent Accord, if not more, and because wagons have sold poorly as of late, it would not make them a ton of money, nor would it appeal to a large group of people. Also, the CR-V doesn't exactly suck gas.... with EPA estimates of 23, 31 it's very close to a 4-cyl Accord which only gets 3 MPG more on the highway, and it does have quite a bit of space on the inside.

"Five doors, five seats, split rear seat, fun to drive, $25K with an R20/MT5/Navi.. roof rack. A Civic wagon, really. Good mileage, fun to drive... you know.. a nice HONDA CAR."
So you want a Civic wagon, but it's doubtful that a wagon version of the Civic would have as much room as the CR-V, which you say is too small...I think that the CR-V really has everything you want except for a manual, and maybe a bit more fun to drive prowess.



+1

The sales figures pretty much confirm what VTECyo! is saying. Among the middle class I see widespread adoption of the CR-V as the family wagon. Even the affluent in my area will buy a loaded CR-V (more comfy than the old RDX...), though I think the new RDX changes things a lot.

Does anyone remember those old 5-door Civics from about 25 years ago?

I think that's what the CR-V morphed into. CR-V is based off the same platform as the Civic. No surprise that Honda would want to CUV-ize the Civic wagon. Personally though, I would really like the Stream. Lower to the ground than a CR-V, lighter, and without the 4WD. And +1 for the manual transmission.




Look, I've owned two CRVs OK? I've also owned a bunch of Odysseys.

The Odyssey is wonderful as speed, specially after the 02 power increase and AT5. And even with VCM, the 05 got quieter.... the 07 was a great hauler.... But, let's face it, mileage is not great.

Mine had good after market tires, so they handled damn good too.

The CRV is cramped inside. It actually has less longitudinal room than the Fit, which it beats only by three inches in width. And the floor is relatively high so the inside of the cabin is not that great.

I think a true Civic wagon -see Neal's drawing- is what I want. With its low floor it can provide lots of room inside. It doesn't need to be AWD, so it inherits the flat floor of the sedan/coupe. It could perhaps use the fuel tank and magic seat design of the Fit as well for superb storage when needed.

Note that Neal put roof rails on his Wagon.. I had those in our CRVs, plus the cross members. Those things worked great.

Once upon a time AHM followed HMC and built great handling, efficient cars that were relatively affordable. They've gone bunkers IMHO.

Alternatively there's the Stream, which I would like too.. but I'd still prefer Neal's Wagon.
Jovian8
Profile for Jovian8
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 20:33
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How about bringing the JDM Odyssey?

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 20:41
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JimmyEats wrote:
Neil, that looks good, but somehow I think AHM would mess it up. It'd end up looking like a Civic Crosstour, if they designed it.


I remember the tall wagon Civic's with AWD. Maybe that's what TonyE wants. You could probably put a 2.0 engine in one.


I think the CRV loses any sportiness that a Civic wagon could have. Plus the added weight kills the mpg compared to a Civic.

Mazda3 hatches are close, but not large enough inside for a family. I know Honda could do better.



I think the CRV is the tall wagon.. remember how it offered AWD and MT5?

No, I want the Civic Wagon as Neal has drawn. But nice 17 inch alloys, a K22/MT6/LSD and NAVI. For $27K -plus tax and license.
Chocs
Profile for Chocs
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 20:44
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Jovian8 wrote:
How about bringing the JDM Odyssey?


My family's got one of these in the garage!

But apparently price is a factor in this thread, and these things are expensive, at least in Australia....

Not to mention it's auto only!
VTECyo!
Profile for VTECyo!
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 21:01
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Look, I've owned two CRVs OK? I've also owned a bunch of Odysseys.

The Odyssey is wonderful as speed, specially after the 02 power increase and AT5. And even with VCM, the 05 got quieter.... the 07 was a great hauler.... But, let's face it, mileage is not great.

Mine had good after market tires, so they handled damn good too.

The CRV is cramped inside. It actually has less longitudinal room than the Fit, which it beats only by three inches in width. And the floor is relatively high so the inside of the cabin is not that great.

I think a true Civic wagon -see Neal's drawing- is what I want. With its low floor it can provide lots of room inside. It doesn't need to be AWD, so it inherits the flat floor of the sedan/coupe. It could perhaps use the fuel tank and magic seat design of the Fit as well for superb storage when needed.

Note that Neal put roof rails on his Wagon.. I had those in our CRVs, plus the cross members. Those things worked great.

Once upon a time AHM followed HMC and built great handling, efficient cars that were relatively affordable. They've gone bunkers IMHO.

Alternatively there's the Stream, which I would like too.. but I'd still prefer Neal's Wagon.



I've owned quite a few Odysseys as well. Four to be exact! I agree that they're not efficient in the grand scheme of things, but for what they are, they are definitely efficient. My 2011 gets better economy than any of my previous Odysseys (as it should), and I regularly average 24 miles per gallon in about 60/40 city/highway. Now, I've never owned a CR-V, so I don't claim to have as much experience as you, but I've never heard someone complain that it's cramped, and when I sat in a 2012 CR-V I found it to be very large in the second row (although I only had two people in the bench seat). In all likelihood, a Civic wagon would be even smaller, as it is the same platform, and it would probably have the same interior width (or a very similar width) as the Civic. For reference, here is the hip room front/back for the Civic: 50.5 / 51.4 and the CR-V: 54.5 / 53.1 and the Fit: 51.5 / 51.3. The CR-V is a modest improvement over both vehicles, but this may be an inaccurate figure as I'm not really sure of what exactly "hip room" is a measurement.

I too have been left puzzled by many of Honda's recent decisions, and some of their choices have appalled me; however, I think they have a solid lineup of family vehicles that appeal to a wide range of people, and I have been very pleased with the 4th gen CR-V, Odyssey, and 2nd gen Pilot.
Potenza
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Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 21:13
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I hate to say it, but even if Honda did build the Civic Wagon, that particular car would almost certainly be auto-only, just like the TSX Wagon.

But I do think you make a good point. Kia makes a pretty nifty Forte 5-door alongside the coupe and sedan, so I don't know why Honda can't.
TonyEX
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Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 21:17
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I was thinking of the Stream... but I happen to like Civic Wagon idea better.

What was the Honda that sat three abreast in two rows?
FiSH-Chan
Profile for FiSH-Chan
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 21:23
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Jovian8 wrote:
How about bringing the JDM Odyssey?


You know, I never liked wagon / suv / mpv form, but if I have the money and need to haul people and stuff, the JDM Odyssey Absolute is the one I would most like to get. It's just unlike anything on the roads.
FiSH-Chan
Profile for FiSH-Chan
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 21:33
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TonyE wrote:
What was the Honda that sat three abreast in two rows?



Honda FR-V or Honda Edix
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 22:13
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Grace141 wrote:
Here's an article from 2006:

http://www.autobytel.com/mercedes-benz/s-class/2007/reviews/2007-mercedes-benz-s-class-first-drive-1075/

"Mercedes says the typical buyer of the completely redesigned 2007 S-Class pulls down around $300,000 a year."

The article makes a good point. If the $300k/year familes are well established as 1%-ers why do we see so many S-class M-B's on the roads? By the way, Warren Buffett drives, or is driven in, a Cadillac.

What is middle class anymore anyway? Do any of us Americans who consider ourselves as middle class really know how our annual income is determined? I've had no idea what my "annual income" has been for at least twenty years.

I've found that our friends with familes and good jobs can pretty much afford any car they want up to about a price of $50k US provided they have lived in their current homes for ten years or longer.




To be in top 1% you have to make almost $400K per year, not 300K. That's a big difference.

The problem with middle class is that the Federal Gov. does not take into account cost of living. That is not to say cost of living city to city, but between metropolitan areas. This goes also for intrastate differences as well.

I'll give you an example.. In California, if your family makes less than $70K a year you'll get a free ride at UC and Cal State. And unemployment is $450 a week. Now, the cost of living in Redding is much lower than in the Los Angeles basin.

In Redding, making $70K you can probably raise a family and own a house and a nice Honda car. Getting $450 a week will likely put food on the table as well.

Hence, the State of California considers a household making under $70K "poor" enough to get a free university education.

And making $23400/yr will get you a lot of additional handouts.

Another example, in Orange County, these are the thresholds at which you are considered working "very poor" and get a lot of financial housing help (you'll also get food stamps, etc...)

Family Size L50 (Very Low Income)
1 $33,750
2 $38,550
3 $43,350
4 $48,150
5 $52,050
6 $55,900
7 $59,750
8 $63,600


http://egov.ocgov.com/ocgov/Info%20OC/Departments%20&%20Agencies/OC%20Community%20Services/OC%20Housing%20Authority/Rental%20Assistance/Rental%20Assistance%20Program
s

(Note for a second how illegal immigrants working for cash at very low rates force skew the household income and force everyone into a race to the bottom...).

Anyhow... I imagine that in Oklahoma a family of 4 making 48K a year is consider middle class.. but in Orange County (which does include lots of poor areas too) it's consider "very poor".

Why do people drive Benzes? Well, oddly enough a lot of people driving them are LEASING them... so they have little skin in the game. There's a lot of poseurs.

I'd rather think of Lexus owners as actually being richer.

Middle class.. look at this zip code:

http://www.zipdatamaps.com/92603

Note that middle class in my zip code (median) is considered filthy rich by the Occupy My Shorts Crowd.. Of course, what Real Rich Bitch Pelosi won't say is that she's got millions of bucks, likely pays less in percentage in taxes, Obama paid a lower percentage that we did btw, and that the cost of living is not cheap. We also have a lot of retired folks with no mortgage payment.

And in my neighborhood a lot of people drive what would be considered "normal" cars (*). OK, there's lots of Lexus too. But I guess some of my neighbors have grown up kids no longer in college (we pay, we pay, WE PAY) so they can afford that 30K car... but I just think it's plain shame to spend so much money on a car when a nice Civic Wagon Si would be so nice for the wife and I now that the kids are getting their own cars...

(*) Sure.. there's on red Clarity somewhere on the other side of the hill. brrrrrrr.... I'm jealous of that one.

AcrA6spdMT
Profile for AcrA6spdMT
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 22:27
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you could always just get a second hand honda.... i mean.. its still a honda, as long as its CPO or well maintained by a private owner, theres nothing wrong with a second hand honda.. heck we purchased an 04 pilot in 07 and its still going strong @ 250k + km's
shifter25
Profile for shifter25
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2012 22:43
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Maybe it's time to switch allegiance. There's that Mazda CX-5 Sport crossover with a 2.0L motor, 6sp MT, and 35mpg. All for about $25k. Sounds like the perfect car for you.
Inebriated Snake
Profile for Inebriated Snake
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 00:31
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shifter25 wrote:
Maybe it's time to switch allegiance. There's that Mazda CX-5 Sport crossover with a 2.0L motor, 6sp MT, and 35mpg. All for about $25k. Sounds like the perfect car for you.


I agree just leave. Don't settle for something you don't necessarily want just because its a Honda. Its your hard earned money and you should get exactly what you want and/or need for it. Honda needs to earn its money from you in every single purchase.

The CX-5, Jetta Sportwagon, Elantra touring, Mazda 5, Forte, Focus, Impreza, Mazda 3, Forester, and Outback are all 5doors with manual transmissions and decent price/features/mpg. And if your really craving that Honda of old feel, then just get an old Honda cause the current Honda will not make a similar one.

And maybe, just maybe Honda will build something in the future that brings you back. But until then why wait for them to make a car they may never happen. Enjoy whats offered elsewhere.
WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: AHM has abandoned the middle class family.    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-03-2012 05:53
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This is very true. I mean if Honda doesn't make anything for us, and other makers makes it, then we should just go ahead and get from that other makes. There is no shame and no justification needed. Being a Honda fanatic doesn't mean being blindly loyal. It is our money and we live with the car anyway. In any case, I know several Honda product planners who bought other cars. One guy is a Miata (MX-5 Roadster in some markets) fan and has a Miata as his daily drive. Another was just recently telling me how he went to the local VW dealer to take a look at the new Jetta. So what's the big deal in buying a non Honda ? Just don't look at it as any vendetta or do it just in spite. The chinese saying goes something like : "don't be an enemy to money, and don't be an enemy to yourself, just because you want to take it out on someone else". Buy a non Honda because we really want it and it satisfies our need and Honda doesn't have any that does. Even if Honda do have something, but a non Honda gives us a better fit, or a better deal, then I personally won't hesitate to get a non-Honda. For me, I just want to ensure I am honest with myself and that is all that is important. All IMHO anyway.
 
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