longhorn
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Over on the Piloteer.org forums, one of the complaints is the amount of oil the engine consumes and its being blamed on the VCM. Why would that be the case? Why would three cylinders not firing consume more oil? The piston rings would be new,so the oil is not being burned off.
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JeffX
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longhorn wrote:
Over on the Piloteer.org forums, one of the complaints is the amount of oil the engine consumes and its being blamed on the VCM. Why would that be the case? Why would three cylinders not firing consume more oil? The piston rings would be new,so the oil is not being burned off.
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I have done all but a handful of the oil changes myself and I have not observed that at all in our '06 Odyssey. I think we are creeping up on 80000 miles now too.
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RSX
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Jeff wrote:
longhorn wrote:
Over on the Piloteer.org forums, one of the complaints is the amount of oil the engine consumes and its being blamed on the VCM. Why would that be the case? Why would three cylinders not firing consume more oil? The piston rings would be new,so the oil is not being burned off.
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I have done all but a handful of the oil changes myself and I have not observed that at all in our '06 Odyssey. I think we are creeping up on 80000 miles now too.
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Same here Jeff. I have a 2010 Pilot with zero oil consumption.
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A77
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I am not a technical person but doesnt VTEC operation require oil to be pumped and a VCM engine would therefore be doing this more often - as a non VCM engine only swtiches cams at high revs whereas a VCM engine is doing it all the time. So if there is a problem as far as oil leaking is concerned then it is going to be far worse in a VCM motor? Just a thought. I have no idea what i am talking about really.
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6SPDTL
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Ive had 2 VCM vehicles, oil consumption has been exactly zero. Ive never had a Honda consume oil (12 vehicles). NOt even my ecoboost f150 consumes oil. If your car consumes oil its broken, period.
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A77
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I've had customers complain about excessive oil consumption and Honda reckons that up to 1000 kms per quart (?) is acceptable. Our tech reckons its down to how people drive mostly - worst offenders just thrash their engines, even from cold. I've never had any vehicle burn lots of oil. My hondas none at all.
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CivicB18
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Jeff wrote:
longhorn wrote:
Over on the Piloteer.org forums, one of the complaints is the amount of oil the engine consumes and its being blamed on the VCM. Why would that be the case? Why would three cylinders not firing consume more oil? The piston rings would be new,so the oil is not being burned off.
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I have done all but a handful of the oil changes myself and I have not observed that at all in our '06 Odyssey. I think we are creeping up on 80000 miles now too.
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No oil consumption issues on our former 2005 Ody or with the 2011.
~Patrick
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VTECyo!
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No oil consumption from the 2005, 2008, or 2011 Odysseys we've had.
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CarGuyLee
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How often are yall checking your oil? Do you change the oil yourself or justtake it to the dealer?
My 08 Accord with VCM consumes oil. I've seen it consume as much as a quart within 3000 miles....scares me to think what how low it got the first couple of years having it and never checking it. Maint. minder calls for a change around 6500-7500 miles usually.
I usually end up adding oil every 2000 miles. It's strange to me that the dealer has never mentioned it being low in the past.
My wife is primary driver...and while she is a more aggressive driver than me, I don't think she is aggressive enough that it would be causing that much consumption. I never have found any leaks either
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owequitit
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Our 2009 doesn't consume any oil either.
VTEC operation in and of itself shouldn't cause consumption, but I know on some of the engines with piston oil jets, the consumption is slightly higher, which makes sense.
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bblueser
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Unfortunately, my '10 Pilot consumes a quart every 3k or so, due, I believe, to VCM.
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according2kev
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No oil consumption in my VCM Accord either.
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Slawsk
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I'm not sure VCM consumes more oil. But I will say something about the quality of oil and filters that are at many of the places people get their oil changed at, including some Honda dealers.
The oil filters are absolutely junk. The quality of a 2009 Honda genuine oil filter is far worse than that of the one that originally came with your 1994 Honda. The media is worse, and the size of the cartridge decreased by nearly 40%. In order to purchase a quality Honda oil filter, you must specify one for an S2000. Most of the others are no better than a Fram Xtra Gard.
With the rise in price of oil over the last 10 years, many dealers and quick lube shops use the cheapest "bulk" oil they can find, with even cheaper after-market filters. This, combined with people going 7-12k miles between changes, make for a poor quality oil being filtered with zero capacity.
The solution? Go with a synthetic oil and a higher capacity filter, like a WIX or Bosch Distance Plus. This will help minimize wear on the engine.
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Frogger
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The tires on my Pilot wear faster than most, and I think it's because of birds. And the wipers streak badly due to EPS.
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CarGuyLee
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Had to take the car in again today, one of things I asked them is why it uses so much oil....so we will see if they have any theories
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CarGuyLee
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Talked to the dealer and they want to run a test where we come by every 1000 miles for them to check the level and try to pin point if there is a problem anywhere. But he mentioned that Honda does not see oil consumption as a problem unless it uses more than a quart in 1000 miles.
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CarPhreakD
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I found on my 2006 Civic Si that when I used Mobil 1, I had to add about a quart of oil between oil change intervals (10,000 km or a bit over 6000 miles).
But when I switched over to Quaker State (and now Pennzoil), it stopped eating oil. I found this really odd considering it's not like oils are significantly different from each other.
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P54
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I found on my 2006 Civic Si that when I used Mobil 1, I had to add about a quart of oil between oil change intervals (10,000 km or a bit over 6000 miles).
But when I switched over to Quaker State (and now Pennzoil), it stopped eating oil. I found this really odd considering it's not like oils are significantly different from each other.
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Since Shell took over Pennzoil does that mean if you buy Pennzoil you are actually buying Shell oil?
Oil consumption may vary with brand and within brand. When you made the switch, what type Mobil did you use and what viscosity? And what type and viscosity Quaker State and Pennzoil did you switch to?
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CarPhreakD
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Obviously the same viscosity and type. Synthetic 5W30. My reports from Blackstone show no obvious signs of trouble between the brands, though it seems that Mobil 1 had a lower moly count than the Amsoil my Civic came with from the previous owners. Blackstone found it odd when I mentioned the oil eating as well.
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P54
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One reason for oil consumption is the use of thinner oil like 5W30, 5W20 and 0W20 in the name of FE. Older Honda's was using 10W40 or 5W40 in winter. If you want 0W oil you could try 0W40 year round. The 0W20 oil is mostly to improve CAFE numbers.
Another reason for oil consumption is poor break-in. Lots of idling and too much babying the throttle. Those that are too careful end up with poor break-in, very easy on the throttle, constant speed for prolonged periods without any load on the engine. Cylinder walls get polished and rings do not get seated. Oil will turn dark sooner because of the excess blow by and oil consumption will follow.
Another thing to avoid is driving hard on an cold engine. It might take only 5 minutes to get the coolant temp gauge to normal, however oil is still not warmed up. You should give the engine at least 10-15 minutes with stop and go before flooring it. Flooring cold engines cause excessive blow by, bad for rings, pistons, cylinder and oil.
Dealership and lube places many times sell oil they bought in bulk which might not be the one you think you get. Make sure of the brand, whether mineral, semi synthetic or fully synthetic and the viscosity.
If you have a problem try different brand and/or viscosity. Be aware that oil showing same viscosity on the bottle might be different in real life. And additive package in the oils make a big difference in how long the oil last and retain its viscosity. Be also aware that the best additives against wear, especially in the valve train, have been removed from modern oil due to EPA and catalytic converters. The good stuff is still available in pure motorcycle oils. People with tuned older Honda's would do well using specialized motorcycle oils of the right kind.
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P54
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I found on my 2006 Civic Si that when I used Mobil 1, I had to add about a quart of oil between oil change intervals (10,000 km or a bit over 6000 miles).
But when I switched over to Quaker State (and now Pennzoil), it stopped eating oil. I found this really odd considering it's not like oils are significantly different from each other.
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Mobil makes several different Mobil 1 5W30. By specs alone it seems the Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 would be the best against oil consumption. Maybe worth a try if you use Mobil 1 5W30 and are experiencing oil burn. Another Mobil oil to consider is the Mobil 1 0W40 (European Formula).
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CarPhreakD
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Like I said... I've been using different brands (including synth and non-synth... essentially whatever I find on sale) and the only one that has ever caused me to re-top the engine is Mobil 1. I'm not sure what relevance any of your other tips have for me, since I stated that I am not the original owner (and therefore did not break in the engine), that I did not have this problem with other oils, that my engine is in good health, and I don't race the engine while it's cold.
I'm sticking with what was recommended. 5W30. ESP oil is used for turbodiesel applications. It doesn't really matter what you use for the K20Z3 as long as it's 5W30. However, Mobil 1 is the only oil I have used for this engine that actually burns.
Also, you're wrong: The best additives have been REMOVED from motorcycle oil due to the potential for clutch slip. They use alternative additives but motorcycle oils contain very little moly.
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P54
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Like I said... I've been using different brands (including synth and non-synth... essentially whatever I find on sale) and the only one that has ever caused me to re-top the engine is Mobil 1. I'm not sure what relevance any of your other tips have for me, since I stated that I am not the original owner (and therefore did not break in the engine), that I did not have this problem with other oils, that my engine is in good health, and I don't race the engine while it's cold.
I'm sticking with what was recommended. 5W30. ESP oil is used for turbodiesel applications. It doesn't really matter what you use for the K20Z3 as long as it's 5W30. However, Mobil 1 is the only oil I have used for this engine that actually burns.
Also, you're wrong: The best additives have been REMOVED from motorcycle oil due to the potential for clutch slip. They use alternative additives but motorcycle oils contain very little moly.
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My "tips" was not meant for you, but in general for anyone who might have oil consumption problems. I did not assume that you did this or that wrong, just a general advise to anyone, as you see I did not "quote" you in my post. To experience oil consumption when switching from mineral to synthetic is "normal" and might disappear on the second change if engine is OK.
5W30 only tells you the viscosity, within a predetermined margin, and nothing about the quality of the oil and additives. Even within the same brand, and even between the same category oil, like synthetics, in this instance Mobil1, a 5W30 oil can have different specs. Oil that is called 5W30 vary in their viscosity, enough to cause different results in different engines. Viscosity has an affect on oil consumption and Mobil 1 makes at least four different 5W30 and they all have different specs despite being labeled as 5W30. The ESP version is a "thicker" 5W30 than the other 5W30 Mobil makes and hence might be better suited if you have oil consumption. Also different oils are more or less volatile which affect oil consumption. The ESP oil is made for gas engines (and can be used on diesel as well) and have a higher flash point than other Mobil1 5W30 which will make it less prone to burn oil at high temperatures.
In the 80's Moly was added to motorcycle oil, Honda was one of the first, if not the first to use it. (Especially for the V4 engines). Too much moly will give clutch problems.
Motorcycles share engine, transmission and clutch for the same oil. Cars have dry clutch, one oil in engine and another in transmission. Tractors and other equipment might use wet brakes and need special oil for that. (Similar to wet clutch).
Small specialty companies started to formulate special oil for motorcycles to improve the oil for engine, clutch and transmission use. Bigger companies joined in and bottled their car oil in bottles labeled motorcycle oil. That kind of oil caused the clutch to stick, it would cause the bike to stop or leap forward when first put in gear as the clutch did not release because of using car oil labeled M/C oil. Another problem was the transmission "shearing" the oil, oil became thinner. As many M/C engines turned in excess of 10K rpm, which the car oil was not made for and together with the breakdown of the oil due to transmission the oil did not last long. Even after 600 miles the oil could be "used" up. Valve train wear due to high rpm engines, two valves sharing one rocker etc also occurred.
Racing oils contained more additives for anti wear and one of the best against valve train wear is zinc and phosphorous. M/C oil benefited from that, however when EPA tightened the squeeze on car manufacturers in regard to emission and FE standards they mandated the reduction of the best anti wear additives as they could harm the catalytic converter if engine burned oil. To meet the new CAFE standards car manufacturers looked to thinner oil as a mean to accomplish that. Which in itself might cause more oil consumption as engine wear.
To accommodate the new "energy saving" oils, car manufacturers redesigned their engines, tighter tolerances and roller rockers. The older engines without roller rockers will benefit from M/C oil. A very important ingredient of oil is the additive package and as car oils got the best anti wear additive removed (zinc/phosphorous) and instead the oils were loaded with friction modifiers the car oils were even less suited than before as a motorcycle oil. You cannot put butter on grease and the same with additives, you go with friction modifiers or anti wear additives. They fight for the same spot and one repel the other.
Because of all these changes to the car oil the motorcycle/ATV industry stopped promoting car oils as "good enough", they stopped endorsing newer car oils and recommend the old standard before removal of the additives, like the API SH/SG standard or SJ if it is MA(Clutch) rated.
As you see the anti wear additives were REMOVED from the car oils while still present in M/C oils. The removal was EPA mandated due to concern of the catalytic converter. Engines had to be redesigned to work on the new oils.
M/C oils still benefit from the higher zinc/phosphorous levels in the SG oils or special M/C oils, however the friction modifiers in new car oils will cause the clutch to slip, so yes if you take a new car oil you have to remove those friction modifiers to use it in a wet clutch application. A better M/C oil is a special oil blended for the purpose. The BEST additives have not been removed from motorcycle oil, however from car oil. To use the new reformulated car oil with alternative additives on a motorcycle you have to remove the alternative additives and put in the Best additives that used to be there before EPA mandated changes.
To say that it does not matter what oil you use in a K20Z3 as long as it is 5W30 is a stretch. Not all 5W30 are same 5W30 and additive packages differs among brands. One oil might leave deposits in an engine, another runs clean, one oil might not tolerate 8K rpm for long time, another might be fine. One oil might cause more wear than another. One oil might consume oil, another not. Honda Si engines were not the test engines when they developed oil standards. And how do you know if the 5W30 oil you bought is not a "5W31"or a "5W39", the former will be a 5W20 after a few hours while the latter will stay in "grade" much longer.
I'm not a salesman of Mobil 1, (or any other oil for that matter), although Mobil make very good oils, however there is more to oil than reading the label and viscosity rating. Additive packages makes a big difference. Why would Mobil have at least 4 different Mobil 1 5W30 if one size fits all? To constantly switch between different brands and synthetic, non synthetic as you find whatever on sale is not the best way. Liken it to blood, all blood looks equal, however if you got the wrong kind you could be in for trouble. All oils sold commercially should be compatible (for emergency), however due to the nature of how oils are made you are better off using the same oil as you get the same formula and additive package every time. Whatever benefit one oil has is wasted when you switch to another oil that "dilutes" it. Additives are something that cling to the metals in the engines and improves over time. Some additives might take 1-2000 miles to work properly and when switching between the brands you just waste the benefits.
As engines age and you accumulate mileage it might be beneficial to change your viscosity to a thicker grade as to "fill up" for wear, boost oil pressure and get less engine noise. High mileage engines might experience oil lamp flickering anytime you come to a traffic stop (hot engine) and you will then benefit from thicker oil.
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CarPhreakD
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I can either listen to internet experts, or I can get the advice of folks who actually do this kind of stuff for a living.
With such technical terms as "thicker" and a non-technical description of why certain additives are used in automotive and motorcycle oils, I think I'll take my chances with the latter. My "tip" for anyone who is concerned about their engine oil change intervals and consumption is to send a sample to Blackstone and talk to experienced powertrain chemical engineers.
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P54
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I can either listen to internet experts, or I can get the advice of folks who actually do this kind of stuff for a living.
With such technical terms as "thicker" and a non-technical description of why certain additives are used in automotive and motorcycle oils, I think I'll take my chances with the latter. My "tip" for anyone who is concerned about their engine oil change intervals and consumption is to send a sample to Blackstone and talk to experienced powertrain chemical engineers.
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I would think most here would understand layman term better than technical language, but if you prefer that let me know what was unclear to you. I am not an internet expert, however my information comes straight from the people who make the different additive packages to the different oil companies as well as the base oil. They should know, should they not?
If it helps you understand better the Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 have Viscosity, cSt (ASTM D445)
@ 40ºC 72.8
@ 100ºC 12.1
while the regular 5W30 has 61.7 and 11.0 and HTHS of 3.58 compared to 3.1 and Flash Point, ºC (ASTM D92) of 254 compared to 230 for regular 5W30.
Whether you prefer the specs. or call it thinner or thicker is same for me, or maybe lower and higher viscosity oil would be more acceptable to you. I put "thicker" with quotation marks as to signify it is not the technical word, however should explain the characteristic of the oil in layman's term. Sorry if choice of word throws you off. May I ask what do you mean with :" non-technical description of why certain additives are used in automotive and motorcycle oils". What is it you did not get or what is lacking?
Would you believe me more if I worked for an oil company and said the same things?
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