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TonyEX
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The problem here is that as soon as the car in the middle starts to leave some room ahead, it will get cut off by the moron on the next lane that thinks it can get ahead that way (hint... he/she won't...).
I know because I've tried doing the same thing myself... noticing how some jack ass drivers ahead tend to speed up and then brake.. thus causing a flow disturbance that gets magnified as the drivers behind (mostly not paying attention -if at all- past the car ahead of them make it worse by magnifying the jerky motions of the car ahead.
The end result in this is that you get cut off... so the best compromise here is not allow too much room ahead of you while minimizing the shock wave traveling through the row of cars.
I think that as designed, this system will push the car so equipped further back... it's a flawed flow control system because it does not allow for external "packets" added ahead of the car maintaining an even flow. Indeed this system will slow the flux of cars in the lane proper while increasing the flux in other lanes.
The answer -IMHO- is to equip cars with autonomous control so that "trains" of cars can drive on the road, close to each other, under some unified formation control. This should be done in an ad hoc system where trains communicate with other trains to adjust the flow but where the intra-train control is completely within the formation software of the cars in the train.
Then, you have to segregate the flow of train-cars from other yahoos being driven by drivers, to prevent unplanned intrusions into the train-car lanes.
This way you could created high density, high speed flows that are safe.
The Honda system, is nice, but inherently flawed unless it prevents cars in other lanes from cutting off in front of a flow-control-equipped car.
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gogzy
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agree, the best way to deal with such is control the car that cause issue... or, make sure that particular driver get drivers training properly.
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DCR
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If the human has any control, this technology is useless.
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Powered by Honda
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yeaaa
I live in Toronto we have the worst commute in NORTH AMERICA....we put cali to shame. I believe the average commute is 1.6hrs now in this city and cali is at 44minutes. lol
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dampflok
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TonyE wrote:
The problem here is that as soon as the car in the middle starts to leave some room ahead, it will get cut off by the moron on the next lane that thinks it can get ahead that way (hint... he/she won't...).
. . . .
The Honda system, is nice, but inherently flawed unless it prevents cars in other lanes from cutting off in front of a flow-control-equipped car. |
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rocky
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Bosch developed this 40 years ago using wires in the roadway.
Garmin GPS come with traffic alerts already.
Big whooppee Honda.
Stop wasting your time on this project, Asimo, Jets and design better cars
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TonyEX
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rocky wrote:
Bosch developed this 40 years ago using wires in the roadway.
Garmin GPS come with traffic alerts already.
Big whooppee Honda.
Stop wasting your time on this project, Asimo, Jets and design better cars
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The cost of an instrumented roadway is astronomical, hence what Bosch did was a waste of time and money because it was|is|will not|never be economically feasible.
GPS is too slow, it updates at best every second (yes... I have programmed them) and so it will not work here because the accuracy is not there.
Accelerometers, OTOH, have much better performance and are already used in in-car system to control SH-AWD for example... so this is a means of using already existing very high accuracy data for a new application.
The notion of sharing this data in a "cloud" is very interesting, just so long as privacy issues are determined. The biggest technical/privacy issue is how to calculate relative velocity without broadcasting the absolute car velocity (this could be sniffed by cops by the side of the road to get you a ticket...).
(Could be done by using ad-hoc encrypted tokens using some kind of rotating algorithm to encrypt the data between vehicles in a train... )..
This system worked very well in an aircraft formation algorithm I worked on.... but even there... the distances are greater and you don't have to worry about some clown in a Cessna cutting you off or some cop giving you a ticket for speeding over 500 knots....
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Chocs
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They said they're gonna test it in Italy and Indonesia...
Well, as an Indonesian, I noticed that the only road rules the majority follow is "drive on the left side" and "try not to crash".
You HAVE to squeeze your nose in traffic and force people to stop, else you won't get anywhere.
I have a feeling this technology will be redundant in busy parts of Indonesia, because people will indeed cut in front of you if they feel like it. Not to mention all the motorcycles buzzing past your car bumping your fender occasionally.
But in Australian peak hours on the freeway, it might be more worthwhile.
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Ganplosive
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LOL freaking everyone weighing in on this topic said the same thing about getting cut off hahaha
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FiSH-Chan
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Ganplosive wrote:
LOL freaking everyone weighing in on this topic said the same thing about getting cut off hahaha
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I agree.
This will work, just not always. At certain speeds it will definitely work. Below that it won't.
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rnd
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I dont understand why it is so bad in Toronto, but it is now more less the same everywhere now and getting worst. Drivers just try to grab the left lane and then get into brain-dead mode as they just get lazy and stay there.
Drivers need to be sensitive to the surrounding cars and flow, stay alert on acceleration and on deceleration.
As many of you say, really the problem with this is when you leave to room in front then you just create a place for other cars to take advantage of that and cut in front. The key is to keep a minimum space in front but which is relative to the car speed as much as possible (especially during acceleration) but this space should expand slightly and really try to make full usage of that space during deceleration and close down that space, density should increase as speeds drop and that allows the flow to remain constant.
Not all of us have a keen eye for speed changes. I think some have a harder time than others to compute how much distance and when distance changes occur and they are more susceptible to a retarded acceleration and late or hard deceleration rather than smooth braking.
So a system or computers could help make those less sensitive drivers more aware. even if it is reported to them after the fact.
another way it could help live, if it could tell me whats going on 5-6 or 10 cars ahead. I can't see too well around SUVs and minivans when im tailgating (not by choice)
my commute is about 1 hour each direction (40 km) granted I am about 20 min from the highway.
Powered by Honda wrote:
yeaaa
I live in Toronto we have the worst commute in NORTH AMERICA....we put cali to shame. I believe the average commute is 1.6hrs now in this city and cali is at 44minutes. lol
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montechester
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Do those of you above REALLY believe that Honda Engineers haven't considered how real world traffic patterns and driver (mis)behavior figure into this application of technology?
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TonyEX
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montechester wrote:
Do those of you above REALLY believe that Honda Engineers haven't considered how real world traffic patterns and driver (mis)behavior figure into this application of technology?
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Yes. I think Honda engineers need to learn internetworking algorithms... specially those that deal with traffic flow.
This will only work when
(a) the distances between car are too short for other drivers to take advantage of them.
(b) a critical number of cars are all so equipped and operate autonomously from their drivers.
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zapata
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No way... some of the brightest best trained professionals have thought of potential problems.... glad the forums are here to uncover the mysteries!! #smh
montechester wrote:
Do those of you above REALLY believe that Honda Engineers haven't considered how real world traffic patterns and driver (mis)behavior figure into this application of technology?
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fatbloke
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Wow, so everybody on here's telling Honda it won't work! I must say you're all very clever! No wonder they can never do anything right, you always like to think you know better!!
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Ganplosive
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wow wtf are you guys so sensitive about? Have you guys even read the posted article? Montechester, fatbloke, READ before commenting.
"Rather than providing information to help the driver avoid existing congestion based on current traffic information, the system monitors the acceleration and deceleration patterns of the vehicle to determine whether the driver’s driving pattern is likely to create traffic congestion. Based on this determination, the system provides the driver with appropriate information, including a color-coded display through the on-board terminal, to encourage smooth driving which will help alleviate the intensity of acceleration and deceleration by trailing vehicles, thereby helping to prevent or minimize the occurrence of vehicle congestion. "
So this technology will monitor YOUR vehicle and teach YOU how to drive in such a way not to induce traffic for those behind you. Everyone here is commenting that sure, we can slow down, open up more gaps and cruise more but the problem isn't US, it's other people that are cutting into the opening space that this driving aid is teaching you to make. Thereby, removing all the benefits of you slowing down to cruise to begin with.
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montechester
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Gee Ganplosive... Never thought about READING! What a concept. We DID read the responses. I always READ everything. I even re-read most of them to see if I could figure out if there was some angle I was missing.
Too often, I read trite, whining diatribes from some folks that actually seem to believe the professionals involved in development of concepts/products have no real world experience of their own, as if they don't commute to work like everybody else. Too frequently on TOV, some members just can't seem to repress the need to state the most obvious possible issues in an attempt to show why any and everything will fail. They act as if they really do know better than professional, highly experienced, automotive engineers.
Honda cannot win with these people. It doesn't matter what they do, TOV members reward the activity or product with disdain or even outright rejection without knowing 10% of the facts.
I just get tired of reading the same old crap in every thread over and over, day after day. I know I'm not alone in this. There is a silent majority that reads and appreciates the hard work done by Honda's Associates without trying to poke holes in each and every press release, at least until knowing a lot more detail than can be gleaned from 2 pages and a couple diagrams.
I guess that's MY problem, not TOVs. It's just the way the Internet generation rolls. Trash on everything, because you can do so with anonymity and no recourse. I guess that passes for entertainment for these folks.
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jero
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Another questionable use of resources. May work in theory, but people obviously don't follow theory.
I'm astonished people want cars that tell them when to accelerate and how much, when to brake and how much, when to change lanes, how much gap to leave, etc...
The more we dumb the whole process down, they worst drivers will be because they will think they don't have to think the car will do it!
Good for marketing, thats it IMO... or maybe the engineers are so bored at Honda being shackled by the bean counters, they have to put them to work doing something ;)
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montechester
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Maybe this isn't clear enough in the short article, but I don't believe this type telematic direction is intended to be used in every driving situation on all roads. My take, is that it would be used where it would have the most positive impact, and where the Joy of Driving is already VERY Low. Daily traffic jams or bottle neck areas would be ideal. An open county road/highway, not so much. Then there is the question of how MUCH control is taken from the driver, or is it so subtle that in stop/go driving, most drivers would not even know it was happening? In any case, I see a very good possibility for this concept/methodology to save significant time, fuel, MANY lost tempers, and even lost lives at times when people get frustrated and do really dumb things.
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Ganplosive
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Look, sometimes Honda R&D comes out with something amazing (like the self stabilizing chair, the factory leg-assists, asimo, etc) for the greater good of the world but I don't exactly buy-in on thinking everything they spend their R&D on is home-run either.
Based off of what's being reported here describing how the system works, everyone is consistent in asking, "What about non-controllable factors such as the other person driving a NON-HONDA vehicle with road rage?" short of actually controlling a persons car I don't think any sort of aid or "guidance system" is going to change how a rage-driver drives, or how a mom rushing to the hospital to see her little girl will weave in and out of traffic. You want to put your faith into Honda engineers sure, that's your freedom. But respect ours in having more faith in our fellow drivers and /or less faith in your beloved Honda engineers.
Speaking of placing faith in the Honda engineers, there's absolutely nothing mentioned in this article that says anything other than "detecting your accel and braking patterns, and then giving you guidance". MAYBE they have some other things in mind, but surely none of that was mentioned in this article so you can't exactly cry foul when most of us are suspicious of this technology.
ALSO, I don't think it's Honda's job to save the world either. All this I feel IS a bit of a waste of company R&D resources, when there are so many other things they could be fixing rather than adding the "ALL-NEW DRIVING GUIDANCE SYSTEMS" onto their next gen accords as if it's some kind of selling point. This is reaching into the realm of gimmicks IN MY OPINION. Like Jero said in the other thread, the more automations and processes that you remove from the current driving experience, the more worrisome drivers should feel because that's less control. This isn't celebrating the joy of driving, this is creating another thing for you to look at / worry about while driving. If I'm in a rush in a CRZ, no amount of green or blue colors will change my driving patterns.
You may not have much faith in your fellow drivers and think this will save lives, I beg to differ. I don't need another computer system telling me how to drive.
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TonyEX
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Ganplosive wrote:
Look, sometimes Honda R&D comes out with something amazing (like the self stabilizing chair, the factory leg-assists, asimo, etc) for the greater good of the world but I don't exactly buy-in on thinking everything they spend their R&D on is home-run either.
Based off of what's being reported here describing how the system works, everyone is consistent in asking, "What about non-controllable factors such as the other person driving a NON-HONDA vehicle with road rage?" short of actually controlling a persons car I don't think any sort of aid or "guidance system" is going to change how a rage-driver drives, or how a mom rushing to the hospital to see her little girl will weave in and out of traffic. You want to put your faith into Honda engineers sure, that's your freedom. But respect ours in having more faith in our fellow drivers and /or less faith in your beloved Honda engineers.
Speaking of placing faith in the Honda engineers, there's absolutely nothing mentioned in this article that says anything other than "detecting your accel and braking patterns, and then giving you guidance". MAYBE they have some other things in mind, but surely none of that was mentioned in this article so you can't exactly cry foul when most of us are suspicious of this technology.
ALSO, I don't think it's Honda's job to save the world either. All this I feel IS a bit of a waste of company R&D resources, when there are so many other things they could be fixing rather than adding the "ALL-NEW DRIVING GUIDANCE SYSTEMS" onto their next gen accords as if it's some kind of selling point. This is reaching into the realm of gimmicks IN MY OPINION. Like Jero said in the other thread, the more automations and processes that you remove from the current driving experience, the more worrisome drivers should feel because that's less control. This isn't celebrating the joy of driving, this is creating another thing for you to look at / worry about while driving. If I'm in a rush in a CRZ, no amount of green or blue colors will change my driving patterns.
You may not have much faith in your fellow drivers and think this will save lives, I beg to differ. I don't need another computer system telling me how to drive.
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Actually, it does:
"...the system monitors the acceleration and deceleration patterns of the vehicle to determine whether the driver’s driving pattern is likely to create traffic congestion. Based on this determination, the system provides the driver with appropriate information.."
Which means the driver can ignore it...
As to the rest of your points, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
I think that only a Japanese would think this system go. Being that Japanese are pretty nice towards each other.
Put it in China, the US.. heck.. put it in Italy or Spain and you'll turn this thing off in 5 minutes and never use it again.
At least, it's only a software application with a couple of lights and simple UI on the dash.. the sensors and network are all there to begin with, so I doubt HMC spent that much money and effort in it.
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TonyEX
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Ganplosive wrote:
LOL freaking everyone weighing in on this topic said the same thing about getting cut off hahaha
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I agree.
This will work, just not always. At certain speeds it will definitely work. Below that it won't.
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Using this system based on honor in... Italia...
(WTF where they thinking?)
Where everyone driving a Cinquecento thinks he driving a Ferrari Modena...
And everyone with an Abarth thinks he's got a Ferrari GTO.
And everyone on a Vespa thinks they've on a Ducati GP12.
Of course, even Las Signorinas on the road have cojones over there and l'onore della famiglia rests on getting those five meters on the next lane (or the sidewalk) ahead of that _other_ car.
It's the Capulets and Montagues on a daily basis.
The first thing that'll happen is that whoever is testing this will experience a phalanx of motorized azzurris in 1 liter buzzbombs running into, around, over them....
I'd love to see that... It'll make it into Italian Funniest Videos:
"Japanese engineers try flow control on the Autostrada near Roma"
Surely an Oscar Performance. Bravo!
PS- Kids, don't test this in SoCal... Please don't.
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sfenders
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montechester wrote:
Do those of you above REALLY believe that Honda Engineers haven't considered how real world traffic patterns and driver (mis)behavior figure into this application of technology?
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I don't, but I do believe that whoever wrote the press release intentionally left out all the caveats and details that the engineers are aware of, without which we don't have the slightest idea how useful this system actually might be. I mean, it improves speed of how many following vehicles, over what distance, under exactly what range of circumstances, if we assume that the driver would otherwise do what exactly?
It's good they're working on it though... I'm looking forward to having a car that can drive itself someday, when I'm too old and blind (or drunk) to drive myself.
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DrWhiner
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... we can slow down, open up more gaps and cruise more but the problem isn't US, it's other people that are cutting into the opening space that this driving aid is teaching you to make. Thereby, removing all the benefits of you slowing down to cruise to begin with.
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EVERY moron on the road can look into the mirror and see: 'HELL, I AM A MORON ON THE ROAD'!
LOL.
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fatbloke
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Ganplosive wrote:
wow wtf are you guys so sensitive about? Have you guys even read the posted article? Montechester, fatbloke, READ before commenting.
"Rather than providing information to help the driver avoid existing congestion based on current traffic information, the system monitors the acceleration and deceleration patterns of the vehicle to determine whether the driver’s driving pattern is likely to create traffic congestion. Based on this determination, the system provides the driver with appropriate information, including a color-coded display through the on-board terminal, to encourage smooth driving which will help alleviate the intensity of acceleration and deceleration by trailing vehicles, thereby helping to prevent or minimize the occurrence of vehicle congestion. "
So this technology will monitor YOUR vehicle and teach YOU how to drive in such a way not to induce traffic for those behind you. Everyone here is commenting that sure, we can slow down, open up more gaps and cruise more but the problem isn't US, it's other people that are cutting into the opening space that this driving aid is teaching you to make. Thereby, removing all the benefits of you slowing down to cruise to begin with.
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Well done Sherlock, that's why i made my comment you idiot!
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mr. bill
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It'll work.
I can't tell you how often I pass the idiots who cut into the gap at the next light or rotary.
-mr. bill
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