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6SPDTL
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The original s2k revved to 9K. The honda recommended oil was 10-30 nothing about synthetic or otherwise, simply honda oil NOS. The change interval was determined by the oil change "thingy" which mostly measures total engine revolutions usually translate to around 7k miles. "Honda oil" is simply castrol or another major bulk oil manufacturer with a honda sticker on it. Personally I've never heard of any s2000 engine failures due to oil issues.
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6SPDTL
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The ethanol issue another good question! :) Ethanol is not a problem for oil per-se but for engine parts that may be hurt by water contamination. Ethanol is hygroscopic thus it tends to suck water from the atmosphere. This can cause issues of corrosion in fuel distribution systems, plus it can degrade some plastics, however, that has nothing to do with oil since your engine does not have fuel in it for significant amount of time. PLus gas doesnt spend much time in the tank anyway. On boats its a particular problem again not because of the oil. A boat has a huge gas tank (for example my whaler has 150 gal) where fuel may sit for months. Given ethanol's affinity for water (the boat is obviously in a particularly wet environment,LOL) a process called fuel separation can occur, where you have gas on top of gallons of water within the tank. As we are all aware the engine will not run on water thus the big issues of ethanol on boats. This can be avoided by buying gas at marinas where certified non ethanol fuel is provided (at a cost of course). But again, not an oil issue. If you get water in the oil any oil will go bad. BTW Im not advocating you buy the walmart, made in god knows where, brandless oil for 25 cents a quart. If the oil does not have the API seal its most certainly crap.
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Grace141
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My comments:
1.) Yes, a full synthetic is required in the RDX to maintain its warranty. Honda recommends Mobil 1, it's even printed on the oil cap, but the owner's manual includes the engineer friendly "or equivalent" statement. And, yes, my dealership's service department states on its service receipts that Mobil 1 is used.
2.) Every car burns oil. Every car, to my knowledge, has a PCV system. Burning oil leaves deposits of gunk which are picked up by the oil that remains. Engineers talk about shearing action on lubricants and such but just about every oil offered today can live up to a non-turbo engine for 3000 miles. A real question is how effectively they entrain the deposits and unspent gasoline, neither of which are very good lubricants under high temperatures.
3.) Mobil brand oil has been available in Mobil 1 full synthetic, Mobil sythetic blend, and full conventional. You're getting older if you remember when Mobil 1 was 5x expensive as conventional.
4.) If a car, even a Honda with a MM, calls only for conventional and you change at the recommended interval there is zero need or benefit from using even a blend not to mention a full synthetic. If you routinely exceed the service capabilities of such a car you have other worries such as voiding your warranties.
5.) A friend called from his local Honda service department just yesterday to say Honda had dropped all conventional oils. The CP oils mentioned are of very good quality. The Motorcraft product connection is interesting. I've known that Shell produces many of the house brand oils you can buy at auto parts stores. Oddly enough, I've found Texaco Havoline oil priced lower than the house brand at my favorite store. I'll check out the Motorcraft products if I stop using Castrol in my Accord.
6.) As for Honda dropping conventional oils, I wouldn't be surprised to see synthetic blends recommended for mileage ratings in the upcoming Honda cars. The new Civic arrives in six weeks or so; now is the time to change the products offered in the service departments.
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P54
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Nobody said anything about ethanol causing problems for the oil, however it might demand more of the oil. The issue of ethanol was just put in there because of your "quote":
"The reason they sell expensive or cheap oil is because the regular consumer is ignorant about the matter. Its the same idiocy as pouring premium fuel in an engine rated for regular, dummies will buy just because it says "premium"."
So I used this argument to answer you:
"Strong words, however small engines and boat people have had a lot of issues with ETHANOL in fuel and by using premium they are avoiding the problems as premium many(all?) places are ethanol free. Do you think it is out of ignorance that expensive oils are factory fill in many exotic cars and that Acura approves of one certain oil in their RDX (or used to?)? Maybe I can use your quote "An educated consumer never plays the fool".
I was just trying to tell you people are not idiots just because you see it that way. Before Honda started their Honda oils in the 70's they got educated by one of the leaders in specialty
oils regarding what additives to use and so on. Over the years they have used different suppliers, however they have a certain additive package to go by. Usually it is not the common engine that got problems with common oil, however some engines have higher stress than others and will benefit from better oil. Check the data sheet from different oil brands and you will find that the specs vary even though they meet same standard. Even with the same labeled viscosity from different brands the actual viscosity will vary. You can buy a 5W30 and after few hours it might be 5W20, while a different brand might still be 5W30 after 10K miles. There is more to oil than meet the eye, hence I use your own "quote": "An educated consumer never plays the fool". That's why some manufacturers use higher end oil on certain vehicles, they are educated enough not to use the common oil that "meet" the minimum standard.
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P54
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Not to forget, fully synthetics will also increase HP output compared to mineral oil. They can also lower the oil temperature in an engine and increase FE.
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garoto628
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P54 wrote:
garoto628 wrote:
They way I see it, if you are someone who takes great care of your engine, you may be okay with conventional oil. However, most consumers are not as meticulous as say, I am, with changing the engine's oil, so they are definitely safer with a synthetic over the life of a car. The synthetic will take care of your engine while the car's owner forgets to either change the oil, changes the oil at wrong intervals, or doesn't change it more than twice per 50,000 miles.
My problem with synthetics is that they state you can leave it in there for 15,000 miles, but there's no way in earth I would leave it for that long. I would probably leave it in there for 5000 miles, if that. For that reason, synthetic would cost me dearly, and I'd probably hardly benefit because I change my oil every 3000 miles anyway. Even Honda's user's manual states that you may use synthetic, but you have to use the same grade that your car requires, and they ask that you still replace the oil at the regular oil intervals the MMS asks for.
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How come you have problems with one statement (15000 miles) and not other statements (like approval ratings). If you change oil every 3000 miles you will have no problems with a high quality conventional oil, however in no way was that oil ever intended or tested to rev beyond 8K rpm. and to give the best protection at those elevated piston speeds. A high end fully synthetic will have no problem with 15K miles and engine would still be clean inside. Study about oil and you'll find that the way you see it will change.
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I really am no oil expert, I am sure you know more than I do about engine oil. However, I do know a thing or two about cars based on my experience which I can share.
I should have stated "One of my problems with synthetics...". I would never add an oil in my engine without the API certification seal.
Honda's oil is a high quality conventional oil, and, as I have learned here, so is their new Synthetic blend. Both with API certification seals obviously.
Regarding the engine revving up to 8000 rpm: Honda designs their engines around a particular oil, hence their oil requirement for each engine. When honda requires a 5W-30 weight oil (either synthetic or conventional) for an engine the revs up to 8000rpm, it is because that's all it needs. Synthetic will definitely protect the engine and so will conventional. Synthetic can go longer, and will keep the engine clean for extended mileage while also providing continued protection, attributes that conventional do not have.
If 8000rpms was a reason to require synthetic, honda would require synthetic, just as it required mobil 1 with the RDX.
By changing my conventional oil every 3000 miles, Now at 140,000 miles my engine is still strong, real smooth, I average 29mpg, and as far as I can see, it looks clean.
Synthetic would have achieved that even if I changed the oil at 15,000miles (or so they claim), while conventional probably wouldn't.
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Potenza
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garoto628 wrote:
By changing my conventional oil every 3000 miles, Now at 140,000 miles my engine is still strong, real smooth, I average 29mpg, and as far as I can see, it looks clean.
Synthetic would have achieved that even if I changed the oil at 15,000miles (or so they claim), while conventional probably wouldn't.
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So as far as I'm concerned, Honda did all the work on making great engines, and changing that pesky oil is just a formality. Okay, that's obviously an exaggeration, but it's also obvious to me that people don't need to be as obsessive as they are about brand and type and change intervals of oil.
Also, as we see, everyone has their opinion, which often gets intertwined with what they call facts. Really I think the original question was answered long ago - with some good points thrown in along the way - and there's not a lot more to be gained here. Just saying.
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SFTifoso
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Synthetic oils will not harm your engine at all. No matter how many miles it has been run on conventional oil. All you gotta do is make sure it's the right grade and it has the API starburst.
Also 6000 miles is nothing for oils today. You might think that changing it more often is better, but remember that every time you start your engine after an oil change it will run bone dry for a second. I try to minimize that bone dry start by changing the oil only the minder goes off. If you want some piece of mind that the oil can handle 6000+ miles use Mobil 1 Extended Performance, Castrol Edge, Pennzoil Platinum, or Pennzoil Ultra. These oils will easily handle 15,000 to 20,000 mile oil change intervals.
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garoto628
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As stated in this thread, my car used to consume 0.75 of 1QT every 3000 miles at most, like clockwork since new up until 142000 miles, when I was forced to change to Honda's new 5W-30 Synthetic Blend motor oil.
The car today has 160,000 miles. Since I started using that oil, the car consumed 1QT every 3000 miles. However, my very last oil change, it strangely consumed 1QT on 1800 miles. This is the first time my car consumes that much oil, THAT IS INSANE!
So I tried Mobil's conventional 5W-30 motor oil (which is the same as honda's conventional 5W-30 they used to offer, which I loved), however, it is still consuming at a relatively high rate. At 1000 miles, ~0.5QT is gone.
Here's my favorite part, my engine oil is almost as clean as new at 3000 miles, every oil change, since the car was new up until today. So the oil is not wearing out, it is just disappearing. I have no leaks, anywhere.
One thing to point out, my very first smog check a few months ago passed, but one testing parameter called my attention:
HC (PPM)
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-MPH | MAX | AVE | MEAS |
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15mph | 056 | 004 | 033 |
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25mph | 040 | 004 | 007 |
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As you can see, at 15mph, my HC is 33/56, very near not passing.
Does HC relate to oil consumption in any way? My car exhaust doesn't blow any white smoke at all, but since around 30,000 miles, there is a carbon smell, which seemed normal to me. The smell is still emited today, but at 30,000 miles I had no oil consumption, so I doubt it relates.
My questions:
1. Why is my oil disappearing?
2. Why is my oil so clean at 3000 miles (or the oil that's left)?
3. Does my HC level relate to oil consumption?
4. What can I do to alleviate the oil consumption?
5. My car drives like a dream, better than new, why does my car drive like a dream, has super steady idle, is smooth as butter, sounds like new, drives like new, averages 29mpg since new, and yet oil magically disappears but what's left is clean as new, why?
This is driving me insane! Any suggestions?
I LOVE MY CAR, L-O-V-E, pronounced [luhv].
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timp64
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You're oil is being burned by the engine, there may be a leak somewhere internally (seal of some sort). The dino oil does better because it will clog small holes where synthetic/blends don't do this as well. Also you're changing your oil too often. 3,000 miles is wasteful. I'd change at 5,000 miles at the most often, I thought the 06 civics had a maintenance minder system that tells you when to change oil. Just top off your oil if you're a bit low and keep going. I usually drive 7500 before changing oil. My 2003 accord burns about a quart at 7500 miles and I don't think that's too bad since you have to remember oil lubricates the cylinders and there is sure to be residual in the cylinders which gets burnt. Also our 2011 accord tells us to change at around 8,000 miles and even it is low at that point, being a brand new engine.
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P54
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If people break in the engine wrong (being too careful, passive driving, prolonged idling etc.) that will lead to oil consumption as long as you own the vehicle as cylinders will be glazed and you will have to much blow by. However in your case that might not be so as you say engine oil is clean, usually with blow by you also get dirtier looking oil.
One thing that tend to cause oil consumption on older engines is worn/dried up valve guide seals. They should be easy to replace. If you have no external leaks that might be your problem. A new engine is manufactured within certain tolerances and being a SI Honda might allow for more lubrication on cylinders due to high rpm. Combined with improper break-in you might have developed this extra oil burn.
One way to lessen the oil burn is to try different viscosity oil. The first number 5W is for cold start and the second number 30 is for hot engine. You can buy high mileage oil like 10W 40, however in cold climate i would stick to a 5W oil. If you drive in hot climate only, a 10W40 is OK. Another oil to try is Mobil synthetic "European Formula" 0W40. That oil gives you excellent cold start as well as a 40 for hot engine. You should also be able to find 5W 40 oil. So finding a good quality oil with #40 in the end should be able to lower the consumption. Bear in mind that different brands have different specs, one #40 oil from one manufacturer might be very close to a #30 oil while another manufacturers #40 oil might be closer to a #50 oil. You can compare spec.sheets to find out.
Using mineral oil I would not exceed 5000 miles on a shift, semi synthetics 7500 and synthetic 10000 miles (even15K), however depending on your driving habits/environment. Sometimes changing from mineral to a high quality semi/full synthetic oil can cause oil burn on first shift but will stop and burn less on next shift.
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garoto628
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Thanks P54. I would rather stick to 5W-30 amd solve the root cause rather than the symptom. I've heard stories of replacing those seals, and some vars go from lots of oil consimption to zero oil consumption, and others just wasted their money.
You stated that Bad valve seals are easy to replace, is that so? I can imagine it being very laborious and costing me no less than $1000
I have always changed my oil at 3000 miles, I think my formula has worked because the engine runs very, very nicely. A few thousand miles ago I was saying that my engine was perfect, today I'm not too sure if I can say that since its burning that one QT around 2000 miles, I'm dissappointed, because I did everything a owner could do to keep the car in top shape, with the kind of maintenance and driving that I have given my car, 160,000 miles is too young.
What do you suggest my next step be? I would use Mobil 1 5w-30 and then follow longer intervals with than, but not longer than what the MMS suggests, but the hole point of a Honda is that I don't have to spend a fortune on petrol crap like a Benz does. Also, I dont want full synthetic to damage my seals (or so I've heard).
Im suspicious hondas synthetic blend may have damaged my seals, hence the internal leak. My car never consumed that much oil before it, it happened like clockwork.
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Double J
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Changing valve stem seals is not difficult per se but it is very tricky kind of like playing operation. There are very small parts and it required a special tool to compress the valve springs. You need to be patient or lucky and it helps to have another set of hands. Also you probably need compressed air to keep the valves closed. I did it a few years ago and I didn't notice that big of a change in oil consumption but I'm glad I did it. I just believe that the oil consumption is due to my operating conditions and the age of the engine.
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notyper
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High revving engines are going to burn oil. Simple fact of life. There's no way you can rev a piston engine to 8000+ rpm and not burn some oil. I suspect that if you were to do a 500 mile trip and keep the revs under 5000 rpm you'd probably see substantially reduced consumption from where you're at right now. The issue is that the oil rings just can't manage to keep all the oil out of the combustion chamber. The problem is exacerbated by the way the rings perform at high rpm, not to mention that high rpms and fuel economy requirements push manufacturers to use low tension rings which are more likely to let oil past. My S2000 will burn almost no oil on a 500 mile trip at constant cruise. But if I go to the track and spend all day at 9000 rpm, I'll burn a half quart in less than 200 miles.
1 qt every 3000 miles for a K20 is excellent. 1 qt every 1500 miles for an engine with 160k miles is really not bad. I only start to get concerned when you start consuming more than 1 qt every 1000 miles. Even that isn't catastrophic, but its high enough you have to start watching oil levels closely to avoid running low. But think about it this way. Over 1000 miles, you're going to consume 30-40 gallons of gas. Using a quart of oil you're using less than 1% of the volume of gas that you use. That's why you won't see any smoke (especially with a catalytic converter), nor will the leak be obvious. That 1000 miles is going to require 20-30 hours of run time. That's several million engine revolutions. 4-5 million cylinder firing events. About 1 cc of oil burned every 5,000 firing events, or 0.0002 cc/combustion event. Or 0.2 microliters. This is just to give you an idea of the tiny volumes at play here.
Speaking of catalytic converters, your emissions profile shows clear evidence of the catalytic converter starting to degrade. Notice how the higher speed test shows a dramatic reduction? That's because the cat is nice and hot and working properly. But the low speed test temps are not up at optimum and the reduced effectiveness of your high mileage converter's catalyst block is showing. A new cat would probably clean up that low speed stuff tremendously, but until then, be sure to get it nice and hot before going to the emissions shop (3000-4000 rpm on the freeway at 70 mph for 10 minutes shoud do the trick, along with some full throttle blasts).
SC
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garoto628
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notyper wrote:
High revving engines are going to burn oil. Simple fact of life. There's no way you can rev a piston engine to 8000+ rpm and not burn some oil. I suspect that if you were to do a 500 mile trip and keep the revs under 5000 rpm you'd probably see substantially reduced consumption from where you're at right now. The issue is that the oil rings just can't manage to keep all the oil out of the combustion chamber. The problem is exacerbated by the way the rings perform at high rpm, not to mention that high rpms and fuel economy requirements push manufacturers to use low tension rings which are more likely to let oil past. My S2000 will burn almost no oil on a 500 mile trip at constant cruise. But if I go to the track and spend all day at 9000 rpm, I'll burn a half quart in less than 200 miles.
1 qt every 3000 miles for a K20 is excellent. 1 qt every 1500 miles for an engine with 160k miles is really not bad. I only start to get concerned when you start consuming more than 1 qt every 1000 miles. Even that isn't catastrophic, but its high enough you have to start watching oil levels closely to avoid running low. But think about it this way. Over 1000 miles, you're going to consume 30-40 gallons of gas. Using a quart of oil you're using less than 1% of the volume of gas that you use. That's why you won't see any smoke (especially with a catalytic converter), nor will the leak be obvious. That 1000 miles is going to require 20-30 hours of run time. That's several million engine revolutions. 4-5 million cylinder firing events. About 1 cc of oil burned every 5,000 firing events, or 0.0002 cc/combustion event. Or 0.2 microliters. This is just to give you an idea of the tiny volumes at play here.
Speaking of catalytic converters, your emissions profile shows clear evidence of the catalytic converter starting to degrade. Notice how the higher speed test shows a dramatic reduction? That's because the cat is nice and hot and working properly. But the low speed test temps are not up at optimum and the reduced effectiveness of your high mileage converter's catalyst block is showing. A new cat would probably clean up that low speed stuff tremendously, but until then, be sure to get it nice and hot before going to the emissions shop (3000-4000 rpm on the freeway at 70 mph for 10 minutes shoud do the trick, along with some full throttle blasts).
SC
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SC, thanks a lot for your detailed input, I appreciate that. I should have mentioned that all of this oil consumption is in fact happening without any vtec, 90% highway cruise at around 65-70mph. I hit 7000rpms at most 3 times every 2 weeks. I don't think I have visited 8k in several months now (I'm not sure if that's good or bad). Also, I noticed that consumption increased during my last oil change, but so did traffic conditions due to the tanker blowing up on the 60 freeway, causing tremendous gridlock traffic congestions. This led me to believe that the 15mph high HC levels relate to increased oil consumption during high traffic conditions (low speed driving).
Shawn, Does your opinion change with regards to oil consumption now that I mentioned my rare visits to the high rev range?
Any advice on which brand of 5W-30 oil to use? I have always used Honda Genuine. Any opinions about mobil 1 full synthetic? I want to find something and stuck to it like I did with Honda's genuine oil, but I don't want to run into any issues by switching the type of oil I use.
Thank You
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Road Race
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as another point of reference, my wife's US market '02 civic Si has had low viscosity Mobile 1 in it since the first oil change at 5000 mi. I replace oil and filter once a year at about 15,000 per change. It now has 140,000 miles and burns about a quart per 6000 miles.
This is the same consumption that my '07 si gets. I change its mobile 1 once a year at about 7000 miles
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notyper
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garoto,
Doesn't really change things. Your engine is old, and its an old VTEC engine. Oil consumption should go up as it ages.
As for the type of oil, I've never been a huge fan of Mobil 1. Just had some issues with it over the years (nothing reliability wise). I'm a big fan of two different top line synthetics these days. The first is Penzoil Ultra 5w-30. I've been using this in my G37 (which I rev to 7700 rpm and have nearly 30k miles on) every 7500 miles and I have been very pleased. No noticeable oil consumption (there is always some) and keeps valvetrain noise down in the notoriously noisy VQ37 engine. Gas mileage has also been outstanding. They make a 5w-40 Euro formula which would be great for your older engine (a little thicker is better for older engines). It's hard to find that weight in stores, but Amazon sells a 6pack for $53.00.
The other is Amsoil signature series. I used to use this on my S2000, but since they only make it in a 30w at the heaviest, I am looking for an alternative (thinking about switching to a 15w50 or even a 10w60 race oil from Pennzoil since it really only sees hard usage anymore).
As an oil resource, I highly recommend searching around on http://bobistheoilguy.com. It's a great place to get as much oil information as you can handle.
SC
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P54
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Check your PCV valve for malfunction, also if thermostat is working properly and you are not running engine colder than normal. Volvo had problems with high oil consumption on some engines and to avoid honoring warranty Volvo said it was OK with 1qt per 600 miles. This of course to avoid the rush of warranty claims. Normally a Honda should not need to have oil added between normal oil changes, however when bad happens and to avoid to have to pay most manufacturers hide behind the 1 qt. per 600 to 1000 mile "standard". And this for relative new engines under warranty.
You might have heard the story, "this guy drove like crazy since the car was new and it perform better than any". You sound to be a very particular guy trying to do everything the way you think is best. Usually it backfires as engines don't like to be "babied". If you baby a new engine you usually end up with oil consumption as cylinders get glazed and rings never sealed the way they should. To fix that you have to flex hone the cylinders and install new piston rings. Then break in properly. If you lug around at low rpm on higher gear with an engine that is designed to be revved you also do damage and can cause oil consumption. A high rpm engine thrives better at higher rpm than lower, and is not designed to run on low rpm on higher gears. Honda valve guide seals will handle synthetic and non synthetic oil. Please understand that the oil viscosity recommended today is driven by CAFE and solely FE related. Do not be so stuck on 5W30, one 5W30 might be close to 5W40 another brand 5W30 might be close to a 5W20 oil, hence two different 5W30 can cause two different results. If seals are hardened/worn or too much bearing tolerances due to wear from lugging a higher viscosity oil will fix the problem cheaper than tearing into the engine. In the old days Honda would recommend 10W40. Some oils on the market will burn oil on good engines even though they meet standard. Make sure you have no external leaks, just a small amount will soon add up. Check closely around seal plugs, valve cover and oil pan. Make sure no drips on the ground overnight or after you have been out driving "hard".
Once you have oil consumption a thinner oil will consume more. You can also try "high mileage oil" as they contain additives to soften hardened valve guide seals. They usually come in 10W40 as to slow oil consumption with thicker viscosity. Might take some time for the additives to do their intended job.
If you want to stay with the 5W30 oil the "thickest" of the Mobil oils is Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W30, if that one does not help you, you can try Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W40 or Formula M 5W40. I would have tried the Mobil 1 0W40 European Formula. If you live in climates like Florida I would not be afraid of trying Mobil 1 or super clean high mileage 10W40. And don't be afraid of using the revs, why do you drive an SI if you seldom use the 6-8000 rpm. The engine is made for it. When it is fully warm that is. Do not go hard on cold engines.
Conclusion, if you have no external leaks, the easiest/cheapest way for you to lower your oil consumption is to use heavier viscosity. If none of the Mobil oils will fix it, you might want to try a different brand. Once you have oil consumption a mineral or semi synthetic might use less than a fully synthetic, depending on the viscosity used.
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garoto628
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Shawn, Thanks again for your input. I have heard very good things about Amsoil, but accessibility to that product is my concern, I guess I should purchase enough ahead of oil changes if I end up deciding to use it (more about that below).
I will look into Penzoil Ultra, I've heard really good things about it as well, but the site states it meets GF4 specifications, when most oils are now surpassing GF5 specs.
The link you gave (bobistheoilguy) me seems like an excellent resource, I will get into that as I get more feedback from my engine over the next few months, hopefully I will not have to!
P54, I'm sure this is not news here, but Honda's document "AJA 45262 (1010)" states that 1 qt every 1000 miles is normal, and this is for cars under warranty. So in Honda's eyes, my car is perfect (go figure), but that's good news for me!
What puzzles me about my oil consumption in particular, is that the oil is disappearing before it even ages, the oil is very clean, it can hardly be seen on the dipstick but its definitely there, substantial and thick.
Regarding the car break-in, I broke the car in as explained in the owner's manual, and I felt it was the most prudent thing to do. Up until 142500 miles, oil consumption was at 0.25 of a QT per 3000 miles, then from there I am not sure what could've gone wrong, but the very next oil change it was about 1QT per 3000 miles, this was exactly the first oil change I was forced to use honda's new synthetic blend 5w-30, and I suspect that might've been the cause of the sudden extra 0.75QT of consumption. I feel like the only way to assess my current oil consumption and compare that to my previous oil consumption levels of 0.25QT/3000 miles, is by using Honda's original conventional 5w-30 I always used to use, but that oil is not around anymore. What makes me believe that my break-in was fine is that all aspects of the engine's operation is perfect (sans the recent increase in oil consumption), the engine is really really good, you really would have to drive it to see it. I never thought a 160,000 mile engine would drive as good as new. But you may be right, maybe I should have revved the cr*p out of it, I really don't know, I have heard both stories, so I went with the owner's manual recommendation.
I do, however, baby my car during daily driving, and maybe I do need to rev it a little more. I will try to hit 7k a little more often, maybe instead of 3 times every two weeks, how about 5 times a week? and maybe 8k once or twice a month? During the first three years of ownership however, I would visit 8k at most once or twice a month, but 7k at least once a day (this is all on average and estimates).
Regarding oil viscosity, I am going to research all options and carefully consider which oil I will use next. Here are the options I see on the horizon, including the oils you and Shawn have recommended:
5W-30 Full Synthetic:
Honda Genuine
Mobil 1
Mobil 1 Extended Performance
Mobil 1 High Mileage
Penzoil Ultra
Amsoil Signature Series
Mobil 1 ESP Formula (Does this bear the API Certification Seal?)
5W-30 Synthetic Blend:
Honda Genuine
Penzoil Gold
Mobil no longer offers semi synthetic products
5W-30 Conventional:
Mobil Super 5000 (Currently Using for the first time)
If all else fails, as a fallback I will try the following:
5W-40
Honda Genuine Synthetic Blend
Honda Genuine Full Synthetic
Mobil 1 Full Synthetic
Important to point out, throughout my engine's life, this engine has only seen two oils:
Honda Conventional 5W-30
Honda Synthetic Blend 5W-30
If these three options fail, I will give up, and likely go up to Honda Genuine Synthetic Blend, however, before I do that , here are my last questions:
This is a K20Z3 160,000 mile engine, with that said:
1. Is there any item in that list that I should not try for whatever reason?
2. Is it bad to try all of these different oil brands and kinds, seems like an overkill/fetish?
2. Should I try the synthetic blends before I switch to full synthetic?
3. Should I switch to full synthetic at all?
4. If I switch to full synthetic, can I go back to conventional or synthetic blend?
I know the answers to these questions differ from user to user, but clearly P54 and Shawn have enough experience on the topic, and your answers would be very helpful and valuable as I make a decision moving forward.
Finally,
I will update you with the outcome for any of the oils that I try so that this thread can serve as documentation for 8th Gen Si owners as they reach this sort of mileage, or face the level of oil consumption that I currently have (~1QT every ~2000 miles).
Thank You All
Best regards,
garoto
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Grace141
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I'd like to second nearly everything Notyper has said here, maybe disagreeing a bit with not babying a new engine during the break-in period. I'm a firm believer in what I call a progressive break-in process with only grandma-style driving during the first 500 miles or so. A relative bought a new '94 Accord back in the day, took it up to 6k RPM maybe three times during the first week he owned the car, and it burned a quart of oil every 3k miles from that point on.
It's my opinion that wearing in the piston rings is the most important part of the break-in process but that also piston rings are a failure mode design meaning from the point the pistons are placed in the cylinders the rings begin losing their effectiveness. It's my experience that many engines can burn no oil when driven in a normal manner around town and on the highway but when pushed the rings can allow massive amounts of oil to be burned, with practically zero visible smoke albeit easily detected by scent by the folks following behind. I had one friend with a Ford V8 that was easy on oil consumption under most conditions but when the car was pushed beyond 70mph the engine could easliy burn a quart of oil in ten minutes time. That engine was past its prime and needed new valve stem seals as well though.
I've read countless articles on oil additives over the years but finally settled on Castrol for everything but the RDX. I've found nothing on the new blends Honda specs for its dealership service departments. I do know the full-sythetic for the RDX makes Mobil 1 seem inexpensive.
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Potenza
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garoto628 wrote:
I will look into Penzoil Ultra, I've heard really good things about it as well, but the site states it meets GF4 specifications, when most oils are now surpassing GF5 specs.
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Mechanic
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It's a slow day, and while you're waiting for notyper to respond, I'll add my two cents, FWIW.
Obviously, you're obsessing over this, but I assume you know that already.
Since you've linked your recent oil consumption to Honda's "new" motor oil and stated that you've always used Honda's house brand 5W-30 motor oil, let's start there.
Until September of 2010, American Honda's supplier for its bottled oil products was Exxon-Mobil ("XOM"). The "Honda Genuine" motor oil you were using was, in fact, Exxon-Mobil Clean 5000. (And, let me add parenthetically, before you assume that XOM's "Mobil Super 5000" conventional oil is the same "Clean 5000," it's not. It's been reformulated, and it's not the same product. It's a decent motor oil, but it's not the same as "Clean 5000.") As others have suggested, you can wander over to bobistheoilguy.com, read the used oil analyses (UAOs), and compare Mobil Clean 5000 with Super 5000. That's not going to tell you much unless you're a gearhead, but you can satisfy yourself that there's no going back to MC5k. And then there's the whole SM, SN thing . . . .)
WRT Honda's "Honda Genuine" oil products, they are now bottled for American Honda by ConocoPhillips (one word; "COP"). COP is also Ford's bottled oil supplier, btw. Ford's oil product is Motorcraft, and here again, a raft of UAO's on bob's will confirm that the two ("Honda Genuine" and Motorcraft) are virtually identical by grade and composition to include both their respective semi-synthetic and fully synthetic products. At this point, I'd suggest that you could have save a buck or two by buying Motorcraft's products, but if you are convinced that Honda's new Honda Genuine motor oil is the source of your oil consumption, Motorcraft will do nothing for you.
Break, break. You listed a menu of motor oil options, and it's my hunch that you are going to get as many suggestions as products listed. Everyone has a favorite they swear by. No joy there.
FWIW, what you've experienced isn't all that unusual when you (or, in this instance, Honda) switch motor oils. The replacement may contain more detergent properties, and those properties have the effect of removing (for lack of a better term) the residual additives the prior product used to reduce volatility. And volatility is what's causing you to consume more oil than you've come to expect. Remember that.
So, let's establish a few basic premises: 1) Nothing you can pour from a can or bottle will fix a mechanical problem. (You might want to commit that to memory too.) So, if, for example, your valve guide seals actually need replacement -- and I doubt that they do, btw -- then your only option is to replace them. Until you do, your oil consumption will continue. So-called "High Mileage" oils may mitigate oil consumption rates (usually by swelling oil seals), but that's a stop-gap measure at best. Remember the rule: Nothing you can pour from a can or bottle will fix a mechanical problem.
2) Your current rate of oil consumption, whatever the source, is neither out of the ordinary nor excessive. You can fight that fact, but it won't change it. notyper is absolutely correct in this regard.
3) Any mechanical work is going to cost you a hell of a lot more -- thousands more -- than $5 per quart of motor oil every three thousand miles.
Consequently, were I you, I'd hustle over to bob's and read about volatility. Once you understand what it is, you'll be better positioned to choose a 5W-30 weight oil, by brand and composition, that is less volatile than Honda's current house brand. (And, if you've been reading for comprehension to this point, you'll remember that changing from one brand of oil to another can, in itself, result in increased volatility.) So, if you change to another motor oil product, you'll need to stick with your new brand for several thousand miles -- 5k miles minimum -- to determine if your consumption problem is resolving itself.
A footnote of sorts: There's nothing whatsoever wrong with Honda's current house brand. Based on your experience, however, it happens to more volatile than what you were using.
You asked whether, if you switch to a fully synethetic oil, you can go back to either a conventional or semi-synthetic oil. Yes. You can switch back and forth to your heart's content, and the reason is simple enough: several years ago, the federal government, through the EPA, began "suggesting" what should and should not be in motor oil, and rather than fight the fed, the oil companies began over time to make their products more and more alike. As a consequence, the chemical components in motor oil, conventional and synthetic, are now virtually identical; the only meaningful differences are the percentages of the components. See bobistheoilguy.
At this point, I'd could recommend a brand and type of oil (conventional or synthetic) that would, I'm sure, mitigate if not resolve your oil consumption problem, but as I said before, everyone has a favorite, and recommendations always end up in a food fight. Let's not go there.
Finally, picking nits, "Pennzoil" has two "n's."
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Grace141
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Mechanic, thanks again for the info on the oils offered by Honda. I believe this topic came up maybe a year ago with the rumored impending switch by Honda to sythentic blends or full synthetics. My local Honda and Acura dealers had always used Castrol for the non-synth applications but did switch to the Honda supplied oils. The Acura guys switched from Mobil 1 to Honda full sythetic 5w-30 (part #08798-9043) at $10.57/qt for the RDX. I assume the full-synth is a COP product and, from what I've learned in the past, I believe I can trust it. Same part number on the filter.
FWIW, I doubt switching oils will have much of an effect on oil consumption at high RPMs other than a percentage reduction at best.
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P54
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Not only Honda, I guess most manufacturers have a agreed "normal" of 1 qt per 1000 miles, in Europe more like 1 qt per 1000 KM (600 miles) to protect themselves. If you asked a Honda engineer if that was normal he would loose his sleep. Honda makes 10K +rpm motorcycles that have proven to go 15K miles on oil change without adding oil. The "normal" they quote is only for liability reason, it is not normal from the engineers standpoint.
If I get you right you suddenly increased the oil consumption as you changed to a different oil, from mineral to first time with synthetic and as I said before that is normal as synthetic clean up as well as the fact that it might be a lighter viscosity despite the same number. To find out you have to use the same oil on the next oil change. Usually it then will stabilize, however if the viscosity is too light you might try another oil if you know the specs are better. That is why I told you to try Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W30 as that particular 5W30 is "less volatile" as "mechanic" puts it of all the 5W30 from Mobil. Some 5W30 oils as I told you is almost a 5W20, just barely within the ranks of 5W30, others are mid 30 and others high end 30's. To put it another way so maybe you get it better, the number 30 tells you the "thickness" of oil in a hot engine. The lower the number the more chances of oil consumption. When you buy a particular 5W30 it might be a "5W32", after a few hours it is already a 5W20. Another is a "5W35" while another is "5W38" and the latter will tend to last longer as a 5W30 and will lessen the chance of oil consumption. There are of course many other variables in an oil, viscosity index, additive package, TBN etc. I'm just trying to give you an understanding that not all "30" numbers have equal viscosity.
If you are on the first change with the new Honda oil I would give it another change. If it continues to burn I would try a different oil. If you have used the new Honda oil twice or more already and it burn consistently more than before I guess it is its lighter viscosity compared to your previous oil and the cleanup it did. The ESP 5W30 is "thicker" hot than the other Mobil 5W30. My dad uses the 0W40 on his Civic from '97, no problem. The Mobil 1 0W40 has very high viscosity index of 185 and because of higher viscosity than the 5W30 should improve your oil consumption. Also it has high TBN indicating oil lasts longer without breaking down. I would try one or both of these, bear in mind it will usually take two changes to give you true results.
1. Any engine with high mileage that has previously been run on mineral oil can expect oil burn switching to synthetic as the synthetic will clean up inside engine and also because the viscosity tend to be lighter. Since you always changed at 3K you might not have too much to clean up and it might just be the viscosity difference, however mineral oil can easily burn itself to piston and rings. Best is to use synthetic early on, even though I prefer break in of rings with mineral oil.
2. No need to try all the oils you mentioned, I told you two to try, if you don't get the results you want try a 5W40 (Mobil ESP), or if Honda is better try that. High mileage engines will burn less with higher viscosity oil, especially running synthetic. If you stick to mineral and do a lot of commute, stop and go city traffic then change at 3K is a good idea. If you use semi synthetic or synthetic I would double and triple that, of course depending on your driving conditions. To go 3K on semi-synthetic or synthetic is a waste of money and resources and you actually discard the oil before it comes to its full use.
3. If you switch to full synthetic you will run the engine cleaner, more efficient and go longer between changes. Do, however, as mentioned earlier, use higher viscosity oil. A high end "30" like the ESP or a "40".
4. You can go back and forth as many times as you want to, but why? Whenever you change from one brand to another or from conventional to synthetic and back you might not know the true result before on the second shift of the oil you are trying. The oils I mentioned are high spec. oils, has less volatility than many others, improved viscosity and long lasting. I have no affiliation with Mobil, however they make good oils and supply many other well known companies with additive packages/technology. In the past I have found both Castrol and Valvoline to be lacking in what they claimed it to be and most shops know that Pennzoil run engines had problems with sludge and varnish, however now taken over by Shell I assume they make a different oil than what they used to, as mentioned by others on this forum. Many years ago some NASA people advised against Pennzoil and Havoline, due to the fact how they refined their oil. That might have changed with the oil they have today.
Under the ConocoPhillips banner are many oil brands and I don't know which oil Honda is using, however Mobil give their spec's freely. Very few oil brands develop additives, ExxonMobil is one of the major and supply to many other oil brands out there. Honda motorcycle oil is outstanding. My personal favorite oil is made by a small family owned company in CT., USA. They make specialty oil and even sell their oils to race teams worldwide that are sponsored by other well known oil companies. Name is Spectro, most known for the Golden Spectro line of oil. They make mineral, semi synthetic and full synthetic oils. That was the company that taught AHM how to formulate special oils for MC back in the "old" days. BMW used to or still? got their motorcycle oils from them. Oil is batch blended so every bottle is the same spec. oil. It was Spectro oil that "forced" all other oil companies to at least recognize MC have different needs than autos and caused them to market their own MC oils.
An oil without the API seal might be better for certain applications than one with it. Also remember that some standards are politically driven and not engine driven.
If as some say here that Motorcraft synthetic 5W30 is same as Honda 5W30 then no use to try that as it seems too light in viscosity for your mileage. If you want to stay with Honda then go 5W40. At least then you know you can stay with "Honda" oil if that is more convenient for you.
If you want to stay with 5W30, Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W30 is a better choice for you if Honda and Motorcraft 5W30 is same. The Mobil 1 0W40 is even better. 0W means you get oil supplied fast on cold mornings and the 40 will cause less oil burn on hot engine. Since you have tried only 5W30 before, maybe you want to try ESP 5W30 first to see the difference, but remember it might take two changes. Three easy to get choices:
1. If you "must" stay with 5W30 try Mobil 1 ESP Formula5W30.
2. Better yet, go 5W40 Honda or Mobil, semi or full.
3. Best spec. on paper Mobil 1 0W40.
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garoto628
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Mechanic,
Thank you for your very detailed and thorough response. I will update this thread in the relatively near future, and I'm sure the information all of you provided me will be helpful in reaching a positive outcome. I know more about oil now, and I'll know what to do in future oil changes.
I will likely try out either a 40 weight, or a "thicker" 30 like P54 suggested. With the 40-weight, i'll stick to Honda Genuine first (synthetic blend), then I'll go from there.
Best regards and happy new years,
garoto
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garoto628
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Hi all,
as a follow up, the very next 3000 miles on Mobil 5000 super 5w-30 conventional oil, the engine went from burning 1QT every 3000 miles to 0.70 of a QT every 3000 miles, meaning, that at the end of the 3000 miles, my dipistick had around 30% of oil left on it. That is excellent news. That means that the switch to synthetic blend is what cause the discrepancy. As a reminder, I didn't choose to switch to synthetic blend, but rather, Honda changed from Conventional 5W-30 to Synthetic Blend (and above) motor oils of all weights.
At 167000 miles, I am very happy with what My 8th Gen Civic Si has offered me, and continues to offer.
The way the car is behaving, bumper to bumper, this is clear evidence of Honda's original DNA being included as part of the formula in the creation of these Civics.
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FAL
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garoto628 wrote:
Shawn, Thanks again for your input. I have heard very good things about Amsoil, but accessibility to that product is my concern, I guess I should purchase enough ahead of oil changes if I end up deciding to use it (more about that below).
I will look into Penzoil Ultra, I've heard really good things about it as well, but the site states it meets GF4 specifications, when most oils are now surpassing GF5 specs.
The link you gave (bobistheoilguy) me seems like an excellent resource, I will get into that as I get more feedback from my engine over the next few months, hopefully I will not have to!
P54, I'm sure this is not news here, but Honda's document "AJA 45262 (1010)" states that 1 qt every 1000 miles is normal, and this is for cars under warranty. So in Honda's eyes, my car is perfect (go figure), but that's good news for me!
What puzzles me about my oil consumption in particular, is that the oil is disappearing before it even ages, the oil is very clean, it can hardly be seen on the dipstick but its definitely there, substantial and thick.
Regarding the car break-in, I broke the car in as explained in the owner's manual, and I felt it was the most prudent thing to do. Up until 142500 miles, oil consumption was at 0.25 of a QT per 3000 miles, then from there I am not sure what could've gone wrong, but the very next oil change it was about 1QT per 3000 miles, this was exactly the first oil change I was forced to use honda's new synthetic blend 5w-30, and I suspect that might've been the cause of the sudden extra 0.75QT of consumption. I feel like the only way to assess my current oil consumption and compare that to my previous oil consumption levels of 0.25QT/3000 miles, is by using Honda's original conventional 5w-30 I always used to use, but that oil is not around anymore. What makes me believe that my break-in was fine is that all aspects of the engine's operation is perfect (sans the recent increase in oil consumption), the engine is really really good, you really would have to drive it to see it. I never thought a 160,000 mile engine would drive as good as new. But you may be right, maybe I should have revved the cr*p out of it, I really don't know, I have heard both stories, so I went with the owner's manual recommendation.
I do, however, baby my car during daily driving, and maybe I do need to rev it a little more. I will try to hit 7k a little more often, maybe instead of 3 times every two weeks, how about 5 times a week? and maybe 8k once or twice a month? During the first three years of ownership however, I would visit 8k at most once or twice a month, but 7k at least once a day (this is all on average and estimates).
Regarding oil viscosity, I am going to research all options and carefully consider which oil I will use next. Here are the options I see on the horizon, including the oils you and Shawn have recommended:
5W-30 Full Synthetic:
Honda Genuine
Mobil 1
Mobil 1 Extended Performance
Mobil 1 High Mileage
Penzoil Ultra
Amsoil Signature Series
Mobil 1 ESP Formula (Does this bear the API Certification Seal?)
5W-30 Synthetic Blend:
Honda Genuine
Penzoil Gold
Mobil no longer offers semi synthetic products
5W-30 Conventional:
Mobil Super 5000 (Currently Using for the first time)
If all else fails, as a fallback I will try the following:
5W-40
Honda Genuine Synthetic Blend
Honda Genuine Full Synthetic
Mobil 1 Full Synthetic
Important to point out, throughout my engine's life, this engine has only seen two oils:
Honda Conventional 5W-30
Honda Synthetic Blend 5W-30
If these three options fail, I will give up, and likely go up to Honda Genuine Synthetic Blend, however, before I do that , here are my last questions:
This is a K20Z3 160,000 mile engine, with that said:
1. Is there any item in that list that I should not try for whatever reason?
2. Is it bad to try all of these different oil brands and kinds, seems like an overkill/fetish?
2. Should I try the synthetic blends before I switch to full synthetic?
3. Should I switch to full synthetic at all?
4. If I switch to full synthetic, can I go back to conventional or synthetic blend?
I know the answers to these questions differ from user to user, but clearly P54 and Shawn have enough experience on the topic, and your answers would be very helpful and valuable as I make a decision moving forward.
Finally,
I will update you with the outcome for any of the oils that I try so that this thread can serve as documentation for 8th Gen Si owners as they reach this sort of mileage, or face the level of oil consumption that I currently have (~1QT every ~2000 miles).
Thank You All
Best regards,
garoto
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O'Reilly, if in your area, carries Amsoil, albeit in limited selection. At least they do in my area, even at the more "hillbilly" friendly locations.
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typer_801
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I'll second Shawn's recommendation of Penzoil Ultra. I use it or Penzoil Pure Platinum (PPP) in both my Si and our Sedona mini-van. Both get very high marks from the folks on Bobistheoilguy.com and PPP is generally a couple bucks cheaper than Mobil 1, so win-win.
Related-I'm just starting to notice oil consumption in my Si. Just crossed 50K and probably losing just less than 1qt every 7K miles (my OCI). It's a far cry less than I saw in my B18C5 equipped ITR, but still always a little saddening even if perfectly normal.
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