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superchg
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bigblue wrote:
autocar reports The Mugen-fettled, range-topping version of the Honda CR-Z will cost about £23,000 when it goes on sale next year.
The 197bhp Honda CR-Z Mugen is due to arrive in February. It retains the same 1.5-litre hybrid unit as the standard car but gets a supercharger, re-mapped ECU, wider tracks and stiffer springs.
The compact rear-wheel drive coupe will be capable of covering the 0-62mph sprint in just 6.1sec (over 3sec faster than the 124bhp standard car).
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bigblue, this is the first article I've seen about the CR-Z being converted into a rear wheel drive!
On top of that, Mugen's prices are flat out ridiculous!
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bigblue
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Oh yes, completely missed that rwd bit :-) Price isn't so bad, it's similar to what a Civic Type-R cost in the UK, and this is some time after that (so add in inflation, exchange rate movements) and the fact the Mugen CR-Z is not exactly a full-production model. If anything I'd say it's cheap by Mugen standards.
Personally I was hoping for a mainstream Honda rather than Mugen CR-Z. Not sure if this is the rumoured faster CR-Z or a stop gap until Honda do something, or an additional model to sit alongside that.
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Nick GravesX
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superchg wrote:
bigblue wrote:
autocar reports The Mugen-fettled, range-topping version of the Honda CR-Z will cost about £23,000 when it goes on sale next year.
The 197bhp Honda CR-Z Mugen is due to arrive in February. It retains the same 1.5-litre hybrid unit as the standard car but gets a supercharger, re-mapped ECU, wider tracks and stiffer springs.
The compact rear-wheel drive coupe will be capable of covering the 0-62mph sprint in just 6.1sec (over 3sec faster than the 124bhp standard car).
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bigblue, this is the first article I've seen about the CR-Z being converted into a rear wheel drive!
On top of that, Mugen's prices are flat out ridiculous!
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That lack of proof-reading has now been corrected by Autobore!
You can easily pay that for the standard car with a few options, so it still seems a bargain price.
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superchg
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If a Supercharged Mugen CRZ came to the U.S., I would be surprised if it came in at anything less than the upper $30K's, based on what the 8G Mugen Si cost.
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Nick GravesX
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My understanding was/is/might be that Mugen was going to become the sports brand of Honda - sort of like AMG.
But everything's been so up in the air of late (circumstances, dear boy!) that it could have all gone awry.
It is likely that increasing volume would allow Mugen's lovely stuff to be produced at a far more affordable price.
That would be quite a big price advantage over the GT86 and that might be a leveller...
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Double J
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I'm confused as to why Mugen Euro and HPD are doing something so similar for the CR-Z drivetrain. Typically Mugen does limited runs but I didn't read if that is the case this time around. I wonder if this is part of their regional strategy but it seems a bit odd to me. Could there be an additional version from Honda Racing or Mugen Japan for the JDM at the Tokyo Auto Salon?
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Varmint
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It's not uncommon for a company to give a project to two different teams and let them produce concepts independently. HPD produced the turbo-powered Thunderhill cars. Mugen produced the supercharged prototype.
After evaluating the two, management chooses one basic solution. In some cases, both teams are turned loose on perfecting the final version. That could be the case here.
It wouldn't surprise me if Mugen's engine got the greenlight. Then teams in each market get to decide the state of tune, the suspension's spring rates, wheels/tires, and other tweaks. So, HPD could be working with Mugen's basic engine to produce the North Amerian version of the car.
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Double J
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Varmint wrote:
It's not uncommon for a company to give a project to two different teams and let them produce concepts independently. HPD produced the turbo-powered Thunderhill cars. Mugen produced the supercharged prototype.
After evaluating the two, management chooses one basic solution. In some cases, both teams are turned loose on perfecting the final version. That could be the case here.
It wouldn't surprise me if Mugen's engine got the greenlight. Then teams in each market get to decide the state of tune, the suspension's spring rates, wheels/tires, and other tweaks. So, HPD could be working with Mugen's basic engine to produce the North Amerian version of the car.
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I could understand that but I think the turbo CR-Z at Thunderhill was a couple years ago. HPD had an engine with a Rotrex supercharger this year at SEMA. It also seems around the same output as the Mugen Euro version.
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Varmint
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Exactly.
Honda: "Go forth and produce a hotter CR-Z."
HPD: Wrench, wench, tweak, and wrench. "Look, we have produced a race-worth turbo-powered CR-Z. We think it's pretty spiffy and it finished second at Thunderhill."
Mugen: Wrench, wench, tweak, and wrench. "Check out our supercharged CR-Z. It made Jeremy Clarkson appreciate a Honda."
Honda: "Hmmm... we really like both of these, but we think the supercharger is the better solution. Go forth and develop a supercharged engine that would be fit for a street car."
HPD and Mugen: "Okay, boss! We're on it."
Again, this is pure speculation on my part. I'm not saying Honda actually did this. It just wouldn't surprise me if something like it did happen. Honda gives the task to two teams and they compete to provide the better solution. It was a no-holds-barred competition. They got to produce cars that were truly radical.
Based on the potential from those concepts, Honda chooses the one they like best. That becomes the basis for the next level of the competition. Each team competes to fine tune it.
That could explain why HPD is working with a supercharger just like Mugen is doing. The two engines may even be identical. Maybe the engine has been selected and they're just competing over suspension tuning, body kits, and what color stitching to use for the seats.
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Nick GravesX
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Sort of makes sense.
Plus of course, there's the HKS version for Japan...
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Double J
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That to me is an understandable process. What is confusing me is that to my understanding M-Tec(Mugen) is not under the Honda umbrella of companies at this moment. Someone correct me if this is not the case. HPD is an internal Honda division. It seems that Mugen Euro is enjoying a closer relationship with Honda UK IMO. HKS is an external tuning company. A very good one I might add.
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Double J
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http://www.insideline.com/honda/cr-z/honda-cr-z-icf-to-hit-uk-showrooms-in-spring.html
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bigblue
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It's a bit depressing really. Finally a fast CR-Z is released and the response to the news articles on various websites is "Why isn't there a K20 in it, drop the hybrid, Honda are losers" and "it's too expensive".
To me it seems the CR-Z is saddled with too many expectations since there are no other performance Hondas at the moment - CRX/Integra/RSX/Civic Type-R/Civic Si/S2000 replacement etc. I don't think it is a direct replacement for these, it is a sporty and now sports hybrid to pioneer productrion of fast hybrid cars, and to try something new. I can understand those who want a fast high revving non-hybrid Honda, but I don't think this is it exactly, though it is a genuinely fast Honda now (and maybe they should approach it with an open mind at least).
On price, well it seems pretty good value. It has to be realised that the dollar amounts quoted are by translating the UK price into dollars. I believe cars are generally more expensive in the UK than the US, so you shouldn't just directly translate the price and expect to get a US equivalent. As I said before it looks decently priced bearing in mind the price of the now defunct Civic Type-R.
On an unrelated point, I'm still not sure whether this is a stop-gap or range-topper to be joined eventually by something faster from Honda directly, or whether this is the only addition planned at the moment. I was guessing a slightly bigger petrol engine and the LiIon hybrid system from the Civic might appear (I am right in thinking the Civic has a more advanced hybrid set-up than the CR-Z ?), to give power somewhere between the ~120bhp of the standard CR-Z and the mooted ~200bhp of the Mugen. And what _is_ going on with future engines from Honda ? All I've heard of is the new small diesel coming to the Civic (euro). Maybe new petrol engines are some way off yet.
Anyway, nice to see some signs of sports-car life, and there is the small sports concept to come very shortly at the Tokyo motor show.
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owequitit
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bigblue wrote:
It's a bit depressing really. Finally a fast CR-Z is released and the response to the news articles on various websites is "Why isn't there a K20 in it, drop the hybrid, Honda are losers" and "it's too expensive".
To me it seems the CR-Z is saddled with too many expectations since there are no other performance Hondas at the moment - CRX/Integra/RSX/Civic Type-R/Civic Si/S2000 replacement etc. I don't think it is a direct replacement for these, it is a sporty and now sports hybrid to pioneer productrion of fast hybrid cars, and to try something new. I can understand those who want a fast high revving non-hybrid Honda, but I don't think this is it exactly, though it is a genuinely fast Honda now (and maybe they should approach it with an open mind at least).
On price, well it seems pretty good value. It has to be realised that the dollar amounts quoted are by translating the UK price into dollars. I believe cars are generally more expensive in the UK than the US, so you shouldn't just directly translate the price and expect to get a US equivalent. As I said before it looks decently priced bearing in mind the price of the now defunct Civic Type-R.
On an unrelated point, I'm still not sure whether this is a stop-gap or range-topper to be joined eventually by something faster from Honda directly, or whether this is the only addition planned at the moment. I was guessing a slightly bigger petrol engine and the LiIon hybrid system from the Civic might appear (I am right in thinking the Civic has a more advanced hybrid set-up than the CR-Z ?), to give power somewhere between the ~120bhp of the standard CR-Z and the mooted ~200bhp of the Mugen. And what _is_ going on with future engines from Honda ? All I've heard of is the new small diesel coming to the Civic (euro). Maybe new petrol engines are some way off yet.
Anyway, nice to see some signs of sports-car life, and there is the small sports concept to come very shortly at the Tokyo motor show.
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The problem with what you read online is that Honda is one of those companies that draws the ire out of the wordwork.
People will post online just to justify their hatred or bias against Honda. You see it all the time on Youtube, or even in reality. For instance, a WRX owner tells an Si owner how superior his car is, and then proceeds to rev on him and speed off into the distance even though the Si guy was in the right lane, driving the speed limit and wasn't doing anything at all. So why the rev and race? If the product is so superior, why would you even need to waste time mentioning it, as it should be blatantly obvious?
On the internet, some will complain just because it has IMA. It could be a 400HP supercharged V6 screamer at less than 3,000 pounds and you would either hear that Product X makes more power, or that it has no "torque", or sucks because it isn't a K20. Honda will never be able to be everything to everyone, so they need to stop trying. They need to focus on making great cars, and the rest will fall into line.
I agree about the expectations. It is not an NSX replacement, nor will it ever be. However, a CR-Z chassis with ~200HP and ~170 lb-ft, a 6MT and an LSD would be one hell of a fun little car. Hopefully, Honda would view it as an opportunity to start to draw interest back to an enthusiast line.
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bigblue
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Mugen's facebook page says CR-Z iCF's are appearing at dealers now.
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bigblue
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The kit is still under development and so retail kits are not available before September but you can pre-order at any time. This option is only available through any one of the 8 Honda network dealers who are also Mugen retailers, but you are lucky in that one of your local dealers (Springfield Newcastle) are a very active Mugen retailer who have a CR-Z with Mugen iCF fitted (one of the pre-production versions) and will be happy to give you a test drive and all the details. This is from civinfo.com again. So, demo vehicles have reached dealers, but they're not final spec (?), and the date for purchase is now September. Seems things are a bit delayed.
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superchg2
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bigblue wrote:
The kit is still under development and so retail kits are not available before September but you can pre-order at any time. This option is only available through any one of the 8 Honda network dealers who are also Mugen retailers, but you are lucky in that one of your local dealers (Springfield Newcastle) are a very active Mugen retailer who have a CR-Z with Mugen iCF fitted (one of the pre-production versions) and will be happy to give you a test drive and all the details. This is from civinfo.com again. So, demo vehicles have reached dealers, but they're not final spec (?), and the date for purchase is now September. Seems things are a bit delayed.
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So, just to be clear here bigblue. We are talking about Mugen retailers in England. Is that correct?
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bigblue
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Yes, the news is about the Mugen CR-Z iCF, in the UK (as far as I know, so far it is only planned to offer this model in the UK). The post quoted appears to be from one of the Mugen Euro (i.e. UK) employees. It's a bit odd that cars are at the dealers, but the final spec has not been finalized. Maybe they expect only very minor changes from now on, or are doing durability testing.
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