|
|
|
|
 |
| Thread Page - 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 |
|
|
adrianchew
 |
|
atomiclightbulb wrote:
Seriously, it would have taken 5 minutes to look at the Jetta specs and determine that the ILX does offer features that cannot be had on the Jetta.
Ridiculous.
|
Yeah, ridiculous that 150 hp and a 5-speed automatic is pitted up against 207 hp and 6-speed DSG.
The ILX R20 offers plenty of fluff but delivers zero punch when you step on the gas pedal.
Oh and the Jetta has integrated turn signals on the side mirrors, missing from the ILX.
The ILX is half baked.
|
NealX
|
|
I would not consider the ILX within the same realm of comparison as the IS.
Having the chance to have a 2012 black Si sedan parked next to a 2013 black 2.4 ILX for a side-by-side comparison ... It is because the Civic has become so diminished that the ILX appears so good.
|
MAH4546
|
|
hondacura wrote:
TSX is higher in price cause it is built in Europe and shipped over. Do your research.
|
No, do your research.
The TSX is built in Japan. Furthermore, if we made pretend it was built in Europe, then it's moot, because it doesn't cost a fortune to import a car from Europe. In fact, cars built in Europe are cheaper in America than they are in Europe, or anywhere else for that matter.
This is an overpriced car. It's the Cadillac Cimarron of our generation.
If it was priced $5,000 less, it would be fine, reliable transportation, albeit still boring.
|
Powered by Honda
|
|
NSXforever wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
adrianchew wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
The result is a sedan that wears the current Acura beak more naturally than any other car in the lineup.
active dampers, nicer interior by 100 miles, and longer warranty.
so in a way honda is asking a fair price considering the yen.
|
So, are you buying one?
That Acura continues to keep the stupid beak is bad enough, you're making that a selling point? They should lose the beak!
Active dampers? How many times must you people be told that these are NOT active dampers? Damper has two rates, NON adjustable, you can't change the rate on the fly... that's what active dampers do.
The only way these cars can even justify their asking price is if Honda threw in the K24 and a 6-speed automatic. The hybrid is a beyond joke... the CT200h will absolutely demolish the ILX hybrid in every way.
The K24 manual needs its own suspension, the LSD added back, and a technology package option.
So, let's see, K24 is a downgrade from the Civic Si.
And the R20 is a HUGE downgrade from the TSX.
If you want luxury and automatic, buy the TSX. If you want sporty without it being sports neutered, buy the Civic Si. And if you want a hybrid, buy the CT200h.
There is NO reason this ILX should even be made. If they had given the ILX a K24/6AT, then the pricing would have made a lot more sense.
|
NO i'm not buying one. My next car will be probably the new accord coupe ex v6 6MT hopefully with earth dreams. but thats not the issue if i'm buying one or not. BTW The CT200h sux what an Asian chick car that is.
Correction on dampers: 2-STAGE REACTIVE DAMPERS. There happy? Also, Active SOUND cancellation seen on the 60k RL of today.
You can try all you want to convince yourself this is just a civic re-badge to help justify your purchase of the shitty 9th civic but its not.
lets review!
-more high strength steel *someone said this 60% vs 55%* You deserve to survive a crash more if you pay more is the rule I guess?
-HID Projectors
-way better interior
-way better exterior no cheese window treatments *subjective*
-PANDORa
-active noise cancellation system seen in RL!!!
-2 stage dampers, + better bushings.
-acoustic glass
-wider car, longer car
-longer warranty
-more sound deadening. 100lbs heavier
-multi view camera
-sms text
-no keys PUSH TO START! BLACK AND YELLOW BLACK AND YELLOW!
-bigger engine 2.0Lvs1.8L
-10 speaker ELS surround sound Premium Audio!!!
-AcuraLink Real-Time Traffic with Traffic Rerouting, and AcuraLink Real-Time Weather with radar image maps. *not sure if civic's with navi get this...I know they have bluetooth but not sure what else.
-MOTION ADAPTIVE ELECTRIC POWER STEERING (EPS)
A first use for Acura, as an element of Vehicle Stability Assist™ (VSA®) the new Motion-Adaptive Electric Power Steering (EPS) offers a direct feeling and efficient steering performance, together with improved active safety.
finally:
-The Civic’s strut/multilink chassis is improved, with reduced suspension friction, a quicker steering ratio in a stiffened rack.
Luxury is...well the little things that you don't notice but they make your ride better, smoother, more comfortable. All these things add up. Premium audio 10 surround sound is an example of what most people over look as nothing but that small detail makes for a more pleasurable drive. i'm not one of those people who think oh the sound is good enough. puke! I need a nice crisp clean sound system.
|
Everything you mentioned is what a Focus, Elantra, Jetta etc has....its not impressive unless you know nothing about cars.
You crap on the CT 200h yet it is far more different to the Prius than the ILX a Civic. The CT200h offers best in class MPG, an incredible interior, options still not on Acura's and multiple green technology. Its selling extremely well in America, Europe, Asia, everywhere. In America its the first luxury hatchback to sell well, something Audi, BMW and Benz tried with less success.
The CT 200h starts at 30k and ends at 42k so it starts 4k more than the ILX and ends 6k more than it Apples to oranges.
|
lol nope they don't have some of the features, focus or jetta.
Tech available on Ct but not available on Prius:
* LED headlights
* headlight washers
* heated seats
* memory seats
* dual zone a/c
* joystick Nav control
* defoggers for outside mirrors
* 10 speaker stereo (Prius best is 8)
* Enform (like fancier Onstar)
* backup camera in mirror (if no nav)
* glass break sensor
did I miss anything? Just cuz it looks very different makes it different? The ILX looks very different to a civic soooo same thing.
CT200h is slower then a Prius! Floaty float numb steering and super over weight curb weight.
btw I didn't bring up the ct200h adrianchew did. I just hate that pos prius with a nicer interior. But the CT200h is more fun to drive due to irs and stiffer suspension then a Prius even tho its slower, nose heavy weight, intrusive stability control
|
atomiclightbulb
|
|
adrianchew wrote:
Uh, the ILX looks much like a Jetta. You may not like the comparison, but that is what it looks like. |
That's your opinion, which I don't share. Starting from the rear, the tail lights look nothing alike. The ILX's rear deck is also much shorter, while the Jetta's C-pillar and trunk are more traditional in proportions. Jetta has the classic Hoffmeister kink, while the ILX's is pushed upward and does not align with the rear door. Moving to the main side of the greenhouse, the ILX appears more compressed, while the Jetta is more upright. The character line in the ILX follows the door handles and sweeps up to form shoulders beneath the C-pillar. The Jetta's line is pretty much straight from the front to the trunk. Headlights do not look the same. ILX is more angular and compressed with projectors. Jetta has a tall headlight cluster with reflectors.
In the proportions and details, I don't see many similarities. The Jetta is much more "traditional", almost like a 6G Accord sedan.
| You're not suggesting the ILX has really good sheetmetal I hope? |
I think it's great.
Cars aren't phones though, spec sheets do matter to gearheads.
The ILX is a failure here, as far as attracting old Integra/RSX owners back to Acura ownership. But then again, we already know that the management has decided this crowd isn't worth it... even though its just plain stupid business sense to disregard past owners. |
This is a car aimed at the mainstream consumer, the vast majority of whom are not gearheads.
Jon Ikeda himself said this car was no "boy racer". It was NEVER intended to be a follow-on to the Integra or RSX. It is not reasonable to say the car is a failure because it doesn't appeal to the Integra/RSX crowd, when this was not ever in Acura's plan.
| If they had made the value side a bit better, it might stand a decent chance, but certainly not with the R20. |
The marketplace is changing. Just ask HONDA AFVM or any of the dealers here... most of their younger buyers do not prioritize powertrain. Most of the new buyers simply do not care that much:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/business/media/to-draw-reluctant-young-buyers-gm-turns-to-mtv.html?pagewanted=all
"many young consumers today just do not care that much about cars.
That is a major shift from the days when the car stood at the center of youth culture and wheels served as the ultimate gateway to freedom and independence."
| Plus an exposed tailpipe is another design statement... cars tend to play this design aspect, not hide it away. |
Well, we can agree on one thing. The 2.4L needs a nice chrome exhaust tip.
|
HondaFan1990
|
|
adrianchew wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
I'm all for saying it sucks after you've driven it and formed an opinion based on something real, but until then......no.
|
Thing is that spec sheet sells cars... if you can't interest people enough to even try it out, its already failed to sell itself. And besides the ride quality, there's really not much of an unknown here... the K24 and R20, 6MT, 5AT... none of these are new.
Plus people read reviews too. Stuff written like "not quite at TSX levels" is a big ding IMO, given how attractive the TSX is in comparison pricing-wise.
If you notice, the biggest complains on the ILX... R20, 5AT, no LSD in K24, no tech package in K24. Don't have to drive the car to tell that the R20 is definitely going to be lacking in acceleration, and no LSD, again that's a no brainer, neither is the lack of the navi.
Plus reviewers have already noted the suspension on the K24 is too softly sprung. Again, that's what happens when you just have one level of tuning.
And how about a proper tailpipe? They look good. Under bumper just screams of cheap.
They did a lot with the ILX, but killed it with the lousy powertrain choices, cheaped out exhaust and the K24 manual looks like a sad afterthought (when it should have been made its own special model with specific tuning).
|
So when you drove the ILX (base, 2.4 and hybrid models) how was it to you since the power train is so lousy and was it really too soft, the 2.4 I mean? What could they do to improve the power trains? Does it need to lose weight, gain power? Too rough? What is it??
That's all I have to say to comments like that honestly....until someone has actually driven the car to form their own opinion, not what a review says, I'm not listening to too much else in the form of "the car fails because I feel it should have this, this and this for a low, low price and it doesn't do this, this or this and I have yet to drive it". That's all I'm saying.
|
adrianchew
|
|
atomiclightbulb wrote:
The marketplace is changing. Just ask HONDA AFVM or any of the dealers here... most of their younger buyers do not prioritize powertrain. |
While I can agree with that - I just don't see the ILX appealing much with younger buyers. Pricing is one thing that will determine if they can get into a ride, and distinctive styling will get buyers. A base Hyundai Veloster is underpowered but it has many elements right on the mark to appeal to younger buyers.
Even Toyota is doing something right, because I see a whole bunch of youngsters in the Tc.
My guess - the ILX is going to see mostly women buyers, between ages 30-50. The Jetta sells in this segment too. They'll miss the mark on their target demographic again, just like the Element ended up selling to a much older crowd.
|
integrator
|
|
Colin wrote:
adrianchew wrote:
The ILX is a failure here, as far as attracting old Integra/RSX owners back to Acura ownership. But then again, we already know that the management has decided this crowd isn't worth it... even though its just plain stupid business sense to disregard past owners.
|
This makes no sense. That generation of owners are NOT buying cars like the ILX anymore. They have families and have moved on to SUVs or Minivans. Those of that generation that are single or with no kids have moved on to more powerful RWD cars from BMW, Infiniti or Lexus. So yes, Acura has not provided for those buyers because there are no RWD cars, but they have met many of those clients needs with the van and SUV offerings.
The ILX is for the next generation of entry level buyers. Kinda like where we were 20 years ago. It remains to be seen if it will fulfill these buyers' needs, but I think it has a chance of meeting some people's expectations even it it excludes us on TOV.
|
Colin, I agree thats what Acura believes. But I strongly disagree with you on your comment. I own more than one vehicle, and I still like to have a fun car. If we Integra owners haven't forgotten and are still here - and populating the internet - then we still exist (not just moved on to minivans). Look at those Vossen videos. The performance luxury market and aftermarket are alive and thriving. And Acura is missing out by ignoring its birthright. If 'sporty luxury' weren't bankable, then the real upswing of Audi, BMW, and Lexus's sporty offerings wouldn't be marketable. Acura had the opportunity to make a great Integra replacement (3 or 4dr) with good performance, near luxury, good mileage and a near luxury price. As gas prices go up, this should be a winning formula (as people scrutinize those lesser Audis poor mileage more). Mendel has just taken a lower, lazier road by pursuing these 'adult' cars. There is no such thing. Thats just his arrogance. There are only cars that sell, and cars that dont. I think its another AmHonda Mgmnt miscalculation, personally. Now, I'm not the 'expert' Mendel is, but I damned sure have a better professional track record... so believe/trust his (yet another) direction for Acura and this ILX? - I don't! And I don't believe these younger buyers are different AT ALL than younger buyers before, except they have no allegiance to Acura/Honda. Only the expectation of vehicles (in general) has changed, and ACURA has changed. The rest is semantics and bravado from a company thats gotten far too comfortable doing just that. Im sick of hearing another HOnda or Acura exec shoot themselves in the foot by opening their mouths... and bashing their customer base. They need to get an f'ing clue about the market, their cars, and how to run a business.
sorry no disrespect to you Colin (truly). It pushed my button.
|
Hondarulez
|
|
For those who are very concerned about the power train choices here's some good news:
"Earth Dreams powerplants will be introduced to the line about as soon as they're available. Not necessarily waiting for a hard date for an MMC event."
The above quote is from TOV news written by Jeff as seen here: http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=1048046
Don't expect huge jump in power and fuel efficiency. I'd imagine we will see 10% improvement...as in something like this:
ILX 2.0: 165hp; 28/38/31 mpg
ILX 2.4: 220hp: 24/34/28 mpg
10% improvement in power and mpg is typical when DI is implemented.
Would these numbers be more acceptable?
|
Colin
|
|
Hondarulez wrote:
For those who are very concerned about the power train choices here's some good news:
"Earth Dreams powerplants will be introduced to the line about as soon as they're available. Not necessarily waiting for a hard date for an MMC event."
The above quote is from TOV news written by Jeff as seen here: http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=1048046
Don't expect huge jump in power and fuel efficiency. I'd imagine we will see 10% improvement...as in something like this:
ILX 2.0: 165hp; 28/38/31 mpg
ILX 2.4: 220hp: 24/34/28 mpg
10% improvement in power and mpg is typical when DI is implemented.
Would these numbers be more acceptable?
|
Yeah, that should suit most, but then people will grumble that the ED engines are connected to ED CVT transmissions...
...I'm beginning to think that no car is perfect! Strange.
|
adrianchew
|
|
Colin wrote:
Yeah, that should suit most, but then people will grumble that the ED engines are connected to ED CVT transmissions...
|
Would it be so hard for Honda to just use 6AT instead of the CVT?
I just don't understand the Honda management obsession with being ultra green. CVT is still a rubberband that will fail sooner than any properly maintained AT box.
Plus the K24 ILX will likely be riddled with the same insane rev hang that plagues the Si. Hopefully Hondata is able to offer a reflash for the ILX as well.
|
atomiclightbulb
|
|
adrianchew wrote:
Yeah, ridiculous that 150 hp and a 5-speed automatic is pitted up against 207 hp and 6-speed DSG.
The ILX R20 offers plenty of fluff but delivers zero punch when you step on the gas pedal. |
You just don't get it. The 2.0L ILX is a commuter car for someone who wants a vehicle that is nicer inside and out than a Civic.
This is not a car that is supposed to deliver punch. It's supposed to deliver fuel economy, which it does quite well against the competition from VW and Buick.
Comparing the base 2.0L ILX with the top-trip Jetta GLI is ridiculous. You're comparing the mainstream trim with the sport trim. That's like bitching about a Corolla LE because it can't keep up with a Civic Si.
|
Colin
|
|
adrianchew wrote:
Colin wrote:
Yeah, that should suit most, but then people will grumble that the ED engines are connected to ED CVT transmissions...
|
Would it be so hard for Honda to just use 6AT instead of the CVT?
|
What 4 cylinder 6AT? They have (thus far) only paired the 6AT with V6 models so I'm guessing that it's too large and heavy for 4 cylinder usage. So while nobody has confirmed it, it looks like the traditional 5AT is going to be phased out with the new ED CVT.
Honestly, I don't really care for any DCT I've driven nor any CVTs so far. I am hopeful that the ED CVT works as well as Jeff has said it did. I'm just sad to see manuals falling by the wayside, but I can see why it is happening.
|
adrianchew
|
|
Colin wrote:
What 4 cylinder 6AT? They have (thus far) only paired the 6AT with V6 models so I'm guessing that it's too large and heavy for 4 cylinder usage.
|
Hmm never thought it would be too big. If Hyundai can build a 6AT in-house, Honda should be able to get a workable 4 cylinder AT pretty easily. And certainly investing into that instead of the CVT would have been a far better choice.
CVTs are bound to fail. Its like losing your timing belt. Failure means tranny replacement. And Honda CVTs have failed, even early on. Look at the catastrophe that was the CVT they used in the Honda City, also various Jazz models. The only thing Honda indicated was that their CVT with ED is going to get rid of some of the CVT drone and mimic an AT more, but that's doing zero to address durability issues.
If you ask me, Honda using the 5AT is totally about cost control, ie. the 6AT is not too big, just too expensive! I bet the new CVT is cheaper.
|
Colin
|
|
adrianchew wrote:
Colin wrote:
What 4 cylinder 6AT? They have (thus far) only paired the 6AT with V6 models so I'm guessing that it's too large and heavy for 4 cylinder usage.
|
Hmm never thought it would be too big...
If you ask me, Honda using the 5AT is totally about cost control, ie. the 6AT is not too big, just too expensive! I bet the new CVT is cheaper.
|
To be clear, I'm not saying its physically too big (I'm no mechanic), but more like it's overkill for the output of a Honda 4 cylinder. So yes, too expensive for the needs of the car. They probably made a choice NOT to invest in a new 4 cylinder 6AT and instead move forward with a 7 speed DCT for big cars and a CVT for smaller cars. As for durability concerns, hopefully they learned enough from the 1G CVTs and have reached the conclusion that it's worth the risk to reputation to move forward. Sheesh, for all the criticisms about how 'cheap' Honda is and how late they are with new tech, they are quite possibly 'betting the farm' on this, don't you think they've done due diligence to protect their most precious asset - their reputation for quality?
|
owequitit
|
|
integrator wrote:
Colin wrote:
adrianchew wrote:
The ILX is a failure here, as far as attracting old Integra/RSX owners back to Acura ownership. But then again, we already know that the management has decided this crowd isn't worth it... even though its just plain stupid business sense to disregard past owners.
|
This makes no sense. That generation of owners are NOT buying cars like the ILX anymore. They have families and have moved on to SUVs or Minivans. Those of that generation that are single or with no kids have moved on to more powerful RWD cars from BMW, Infiniti or Lexus. So yes, Acura has not provided for those buyers because there are no RWD cars, but they have met many of those clients needs with the van and SUV offerings.
The ILX is for the next generation of entry level buyers. Kinda like where we were 20 years ago. It remains to be seen if it will fulfill these buyers' needs, but I think it has a chance of meeting some people's expectations even it it excludes us on TOV.
|
Colin, I agree thats what Acura believes. But I strongly disagree with you on your comment. I own more than one vehicle, and I still like to have a fun car. If we Integra owners haven't forgotten and are still here - and populating the internet - then we still exist (not just moved on to minivans). Look at those Vossen videos. The performance luxury market and aftermarket are alive and thriving. And Acura is missing out by ignoring its birthright. If 'sporty luxury' weren't bankable, then the real upswing of Audi, BMW, and Lexus's sporty offerings wouldn't be marketable. Acura had the opportunity to make a great Integra replacement (3 or 4dr) with good performance, near luxury, good mileage and a near luxury price. As gas prices go up, this should be a winning formula (as people scrutinize those lesser Audis poor mileage more). Mendel has just taken a lower, lazier road by pursuing these 'adult' cars. There is no such thing. Thats just his arrogance. There are only cars that sell, and cars that dont. I think its another AmHonda Mgmnt miscalculation, personally. Now, I'm not the 'expert' Mendel is, but I damned sure have a better professional track record... so believe/trust his (yet another) direction for Acura and this ILX? - I don't! And I don't believe these younger buyers are different AT ALL than younger buyers before, except they have no allegiance to Acura/Honda. Only the expectation of vehicles (in general) has changed, and ACURA has changed. The rest is semantics and bravado from a company thats gotten far too comfortable doing just that. Im sick of hearing another HOnda or Acura exec shoot themselves in the foot by opening their mouths... and bashing their customer base. They need to get an f'ing clue about the market, their cars, and how to run a business.
sorry no disrespect to you Colin (truly). It pushed my button.
|
I couldn't agree with this statement more. Even Insideline did an article on "Gen Y" buyers. They are not like previous generations, but they are still people, and rational people are opportunistic and see value in everything they do, just like every human before them; regardless of generation.
The telling part of the article (which is largely true) is that they are very value conscious. They are also very brand loyal when they find a brand that they believe gives them the good value they seek. In that way, they are no different than the previous 40 years of buyers who have defined Honda's strong customer retention. People like to KNOW they are getting the value for their money, and they will often forego more frivilous stuff to get it. Cars are a big expense, and much like a house, people prioritize differently at purchase then when building a wish list. If Honda can't be that company to this generation, they are in trouble. The really troubling part is that the philosophy that was guiding them 20-30 years ago was spot on what would have attracted these younger buyers. Small, efficient, easy to own, easy to maneuver cars that were easy on the wallet, but insanely fun to drive. The old Honda cars that unquestionably made you feel like you got more than you paid for. They weren't fast, they weren't prestigious, they weren't the most adventurous in styling or features, but they sure did pack a lot of value for the money, had leading edge technology, and managed to be so well rounded and well built that you didn't notice the relatively lackluster performance. Truthfully though, relative to their peers the performance wasn't really that lacking.
I think a good way to decipher this gen Y stuff is to look back at the generation of the Great Depression, as the growing up environment for many of them has been the same. They tend to be more risk averse, use less credit, and shop more within their means. That means cheaper, smaller cars. A lot of them are also less turned on by outright performance because of their environmental position. I also believe that as the economy recovers, we will see more of them not putting off car purchases for as long, simply because they will perceive that they have enough security to finally get one.
Which leads me back to the Edmund's article. It talked about how they are putting car purchases off longer, are having a hard time finding a hold in society, but when they do talk about cars they would LIKE to own, often, the traditional yardsticks come up; such as the 911.
|
owequitit
|
|
Colin wrote:
adrianchew wrote:
Colin wrote:
What 4 cylinder 6AT? They have (thus far) only paired the 6AT with V6 models so I'm guessing that it's too large and heavy for 4 cylinder usage.
|
Hmm never thought it would be too big...
If you ask me, Honda using the 5AT is totally about cost control, ie. the 6AT is not too big, just too expensive! I bet the new CVT is cheaper.
|
To be clear, I'm not saying its physically too big (I'm no mechanic), but more like it's overkill for the output of a Honda 4 cylinder. So yes, too expensive for the needs of the car. They probably made a choice NOT to invest in a new 4 cylinder 6AT and instead move forward with a 7 speed DCT for big cars and a CVT for smaller cars. As for durability concerns, hopefully they learned enough from the 1G CVTs and have reached the conclusion that it's worth the risk to reputation to move forward. Sheesh, for all the criticisms about how 'cheap' Honda is and how late they are with new tech, they are quite possibly 'betting the farm' on this, don't you think they've done due diligence to protect their most precious asset - their reputation for quality?
|
It likely would be too big physically. First, it probably wasn't designed to mate to a smaller engine. Second, since it is a mechanical gearbox, it must be able to handle the loads imposed on it. Thus, the current Honda 6AT is designed to handle upwards of 300+HP and nearly 300 lb-ft of torque (minimum) in vehicles weighing north of 4000lbs. To say it would be "too big" on a 150HP/128 lb-ft 4 banger is an understatement.
|
Colin
|
|
owequitit wrote:
integrator wrote:
Colin wrote:
adrianchew wrote:
The ILX is a failure here, as far as attracting old Integra/RSX owners back to Acura ownership. But then again, we already know that the management has decided this crowd isn't worth it... even though its just plain stupid business sense to disregard past owners.
|
This makes no sense. That generation of owners are NOT buying cars like the ILX anymore. They have families and have moved on to SUVs or Minivans. Those of that generation that are single or with no kids have moved on to more powerful RWD cars from BMW, Infiniti or Lexus. So yes, Acura has not provided for those buyers because there are no RWD cars, but they have met many of those clients needs with the van and SUV offerings.
The ILX is for the next generation of entry level buyers. Kinda like where we were 20 years ago. It remains to be seen if it will fulfill these buyers' needs, but I think it has a chance of meeting some people's expectations even it it excludes us on TOV.
|
Colin, I agree thats what Acura believes. But I strongly disagree with you on your comment. I own more than one vehicle, and I still like to have a fun car. If we Integra owners haven't forgotten and are still here - and populating the internet - then we still exist (not just moved on to minivans). Look at those Vossen videos. The performance luxury market and aftermarket are alive and thriving. And Acura is missing out by ignoring its birthright. If 'sporty luxury' weren't bankable, then the real upswing of Audi, BMW, and Lexus's sporty offerings wouldn't be marketable. Acura had the opportunity to make a great Integra replacement (3 or 4dr) with good performance, near luxury, good mileage and a near luxury price. As gas prices go up, this should be a winning formula (as people scrutinize those lesser Audis poor mileage more). Mendel has just taken a lower, lazier road by pursuing these 'adult' cars. There is no such thing. Thats just his arrogance. There are only cars that sell, and cars that dont. I think its another AmHonda Mgmnt miscalculation, personally. Now, I'm not the 'expert' Mendel is, but I damned sure have a better professional track record... so believe/trust his (yet another) direction for Acura and this ILX? - I don't! And I don't believe these younger buyers are different AT ALL than younger buyers before, except they have no allegiance to Acura/Honda. Only the expectation of vehicles (in general) has changed, and ACURA has changed. The rest is semantics and bravado from a company thats gotten far too comfortable doing just that. Im sick of hearing another HOnda or Acura exec shoot themselves in the foot by opening their mouths... and bashing their customer base. They need to get an f'ing clue about the market, their cars, and how to run a business.
sorry no disrespect to you Colin (truly). It pushed my button.
|
I couldn't agree with this statement more. Even Insideline did an article on "Gen Y" buyers. They are not like previous generations, but they are still people, and rational people are opportunistic and see value in everything they do, just like every human before them; regardless of generation.
The telling part of the article (which is largely true) is that they are very value conscious. They are also very brand loyal when they find a brand that they believe gives them the good value they seek. In that way, they are no different than the previous 40 years of buyers who have defined Honda's strong customer retention. People like to KNOW they are getting the value for their money, and they will often forego more frivilous stuff to get it. Cars are a big expense, and much like a house, people prioritize differently at purchase then when building a wish list. If Honda can't be that company to this generation, they are in trouble. The really troubling part is that the philosophy that was guiding them 20-30 years ago was spot on what would have attracted these younger buyers. Small, efficient, easy to own, easy to maneuver cars that were easy on the wallet, but insanely fun to drive. The old Honda cars that unquestionably made you feel like you got more than you paid for. They weren't fast, they weren't prestigious, they weren't the most adventurous in styling or features, but they sure did pack a lot of value for the money, had leading edge technology, and managed to be so well rounded and well built that you didn't notice the relatively lackluster performance. Truthfully though, relative to their peers the performance wasn't really that lacking.
I think a good way to decipher this gen Y stuff is to look back at the generation of the Great Depression, as the growing up environment for many of them has been the same. They tend to be more risk averse, use less credit, and shop more within their means. That means cheaper, smaller cars. A lot of them are also less turned on by outright performance because of their environmental position. I also believe that as the economy recovers, we will see more of them not putting off car purchases for as long, simply because they will perceive that they have enough security to finally get one.
Which leads me back to the Edmund's article. It talked about how they are putting car purchases off longer, are having a hard time finding a hold in society, but when they do talk about cars they would LIKE to own, often, the traditional yardsticks come up; such as the 911.
|
Owe and Int. I'm not in the (alleged) demographic for this car, but am thinking about replacing the (base) '06 RSX. This was high on my list but I probably won't buy one. My reason is simple: I want a manual on one of the smaller engines because I want more fuel economy than the 2.4 can give me. However, I'm able to recognize that I'm in such a small niche, that its likely I'll never get exactly what I want and a compromise will be necessary. However, (and I know you two are not saying this) just because this doesn't suit me, doesn't mean that it won't suit somebody.
So I'm not prepared to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' just because it doesn't suit my needs. Maybe thats a part of my generational makeup? My generation is generally more apathetic about 'not getting what I want' than the generation that follows? So most of what I wrote was in response to Adrian's dogmatic "the ILX is a failure" because it probably won't be. Owe, I think I mentioned it before, but you might want to find a copy of "the Fourth Turning", I think you'd find it a good read.
|
NealX
|
|
Colin,
If you are curious as to the fuel mileage on the 2.4, my average in mixed, slightly enthusiastic driving, was 28.4 mpg according to the car's computer.
|
DCR
|
|
I don't have anything to argue about either way for the ILX, since I haven't really had any interest in it from the start.
If it sells, great. If it doesn't, great.
|
Farage1
|
|
Neal wrote:
Colin,
If you are curious as to the fuel mileage on the 2.4, my average in mixed, slightly enthusiastic driving, was 28.4 mpg according to the car's computer.
|
i get 22-23 according to the imid in city driving.
|
A77
|
|
|
Strange - I could have sworn the RL has had motion adaptive steering for some time. Maybe what Honda told me but not mentioned in literature? Certainly overseas market Legends have it, as have TSXs...I mean Euro Accords.
|
Great_Tubimi
|
|
NSXforever wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
adrianchew wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
The result is a sedan that wears the current Acura beak more naturally than any other car in the lineup.
active dampers, nicer interior by 100 miles, and longer warranty.
so in a way honda is asking a fair price considering the yen.
|
So, are you buying one?
That Acura continues to keep the stupid beak is bad enough, you're making that a selling point? They should lose the beak!
Active dampers? How many times must you people be told that these are NOT active dampers? Damper has two rates, NON adjustable, you can't change the rate on the fly... that's what active dampers do.
The only way these cars can even justify their asking price is if Honda threw in the K24 and a 6-speed automatic. The hybrid is a beyond joke... the CT200h will absolutely demolish the ILX hybrid in every way.
The K24 manual needs its own suspension, the LSD added back, and a technology package option.
So, let's see, K24 is a downgrade from the Civic Si.
And the R20 is a HUGE downgrade from the TSX.
If you want luxury and automatic, buy the TSX. If you want sporty without it being sports neutered, buy the Civic Si. And if you want a hybrid, buy the CT200h.
There is NO reason this ILX should even be made. If they had given the ILX a K24/6AT, then the pricing would have made a lot more sense.
|
NO i'm not buying one. My next car will be probably the new accord coupe ex v6 6MT hopefully with earth dreams. but thats not the issue if i'm buying one or not. BTW The CT200h sux what an Asian chick car that is.
Correction on dampers: 2-STAGE REACTIVE DAMPERS. There happy? Also, Active SOUND cancellation seen on the 60k RL of today.
You can try all you want to convince yourself this is just a civic re-badge to help justify your purchase of the shitty 9th civic but its not.
lets review!
-more high strength steel *someone said this 60% vs 55%* You deserve to survive a crash more if you pay more is the rule I guess?
-HID Projectors
-way better interior
-way better exterior no cheese window treatments *subjective*
-PANDORa
-active noise cancellation system seen in RL!!!
-2 stage dampers, + better bushings.
-acoustic glass
-wider car, longer car
-longer warranty
-more sound deadening. 100lbs heavier
-multi view camera
-sms text
-no keys PUSH TO START! BLACK AND YELLOW BLACK AND YELLOW!
-bigger engine 2.0Lvs1.8L
-10 speaker ELS surround sound Premium Audio!!!
-AcuraLink Real-Time Traffic with Traffic Rerouting, and AcuraLink Real-Time Weather with radar image maps. *not sure if civic's with navi get this...I know they have bluetooth but not sure what else.
-MOTION ADAPTIVE ELECTRIC POWER STEERING (EPS)
A first use for Acura, as an element of Vehicle Stability Assist™ (VSA®) the new Motion-Adaptive Electric Power Steering (EPS) offers a direct feeling and efficient steering performance, together with improved active safety.
finally:
-The Civic’s strut/multilink chassis is improved, with reduced suspension friction, a quicker steering ratio in a stiffened rack.
Luxury is...well the little things that you don't notice but they make your ride better, smoother, more comfortable. All these things add up. Premium audio 10 surround sound is an example of what most people over look as nothing but that small detail makes for a more pleasurable drive. i'm not one of those people who think oh the sound is good enough. puke! I need a nice crisp clean sound system.
|
Everything you mentioned is what a Focus, Elantra, Jetta etc has....its not impressive unless you know nothing about cars.
You crap on the CT 200h yet it is far more different to the Prius than the ILX a Civic. The CT200h offers best in class MPG, an incredible interior, options still not on Acura's and multiple green technology. Its selling extremely well in America, Europe, Asia, everywhere. In America its the first luxury hatchback to sell well, something Audi, BMW and Benz tried with less success.
The CT 200h starts at 30k and ends at 42k so it starts 4k more than the ILX and ends 6k more than it Apples to oranges.
|
These discussions go nowhere, which is why Acura will continue to struggle. Feature lists and package details will always end with subjective banter. It's natural. This is why I tend to think a luxury brand ("smart" or otherwise) would recognize that road performance is part of luxury. There are technological tiers to all types of features, but there's only so far top notch features can take you. There should be no question about what I'm driving. I should be able to remove every brand tag in the car and know that I'm in a luxury vehicle, period. That includes the sound system and it also includes the engine. I should realize that I'm in a luxury vehicle every time my foot presses the pedal. I'm not saying V-8, though it should be an option on the MDX and would have been a decent selling point on the ZDX and RL, but there needs to be some separation between brands in terms of driving experience.
I can't believe people actually have the nerve to question people who get a "stripper" 3 Series. Are you sick? Have you driven any 3 Series? It's called the "Ultimate Driving Machine," not the "Super Techno Fortress." I wonder if you're just as disgusted with people who got "stripper" "ITRs." The fact that Acura's most accessible "performance car" is 3900 lbs and $43K shows that they are out of touch. Their "4-door coupe" was a hint as well, as was the original (and to a lesser extent, the current) beak.
It's crazy that the brand that once had everything in order across its car lineup but no true SUV is now being propped up by an SUV and a European Accord.
|
onetyme_sam
|
|
atomiclightbulb wrote:
adrianchew wrote:
Yeah, ridiculous that 150 hp and a 5-speed automatic is pitted up against 207 hp and 6-speed DSG.
The ILX R20 offers plenty of fluff but delivers zero punch when you step on the gas pedal. |
You just don't get it. The 2.0L ILX is a commuter car for someone who wants a vehicle that is nicer inside and out than a Civic.
This is not a car that is supposed to deliver punch. It's supposed to deliver fuel economy, which it does quite well against the competition from VW and Buick.
Comparing the base 2.0L ILX with the top-trip Jetta GLI is ridiculous. You're comparing the mainstream trim with the sport trim. That's like bitching about a Corolla LE because it can't keep up with a Civic Si.
|
THATS WHAT I SAID! SCREW THE PRIUS AND ITS SUPERIOR FUEL ECONOMY AND HATCHBACK VERSATILITY AND MEDIOCRE INTERIOR. FOR ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO COMMUTE AND DRIVE A PRIUS. I GOT 2 WORDS FOR YOU ALL.
PLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYEEEED OUT
I WANT A SEXY ACURA CIVIC. with nicer interior and exterior............than a honda civic
|
DrWhiner
|
|
Colin wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
For those who are very concerned about the power train choices here's some good news:
"Earth Dreams powerplants will be introduced to the line about as soon as they're available. Not necessarily waiting for a hard date for an MMC event."
The above quote is from TOV news written by Jeff as seen here: http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=1048046
Don't expect huge jump in power and fuel efficiency. I'd imagine we will see 10% improvement...as in something like this:
ILX 2.0: 165hp; 28/38/31 mpg
ILX 2.4: 220hp: 24/34/28 mpg
10% improvement in power and mpg is typical when DI is implemented.
Would these numbers be more acceptable?
|
Yeah, that should suit most, but then people will grumble that the ED engines are connected to ED CVT transmissions...
...I'm beginning to think that no car is perfect! Strange.
|
I'm afraid there is no ED 2.0 L engine.
|
Colin
|
|
DrWhiner wrote:
Colin wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
For those who are very concerned about the power train choices here's some good news:
"Earth Dreams powerplants will be introduced to the line about as soon as they're available. Not necessarily waiting for a hard date for an MMC event."
The above quote is from TOV news written by Jeff as seen here: http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=1048046
Don't expect huge jump in power and fuel efficiency. I'd imagine we will see 10% improvement...as in something like this:
ILX 2.0: 165hp; 28/38/31 mpg
ILX 2.4: 220hp: 24/34/28 mpg
10% improvement in power and mpg is typical when DI is implemented.
Would these numbers be more acceptable?
|
Yeah, that should suit most, but then people will grumble that the ED engines are connected to ED CVT transmissions...
...I'm beginning to think that no car is perfect! Strange.
|
I'm afraid there is no ED 2.0 L engine.
|
Actually (from Honda)
Summary of key features
1. Gasoline engine which achieves top-of-industry driving performance and fuel efficiency
A wide range of engine classes including the 660cc, 1.3L, 1.5L, 1.8L, 2.0L, 2.4L, and 3.5L classes will feature the technology. |
|
CarmB
|
|
Seems to me that it really does come down to the total overall impact of all the upgrades made over the standard Civic. If this car comes across as a nicer Civic, there's a problem but if it comes across as a reasonable alternative to the TSX, that's something else.
Let's not forget that fuel prices are steadily climbing and it's obvious they will continue to climb. The base TSX is rated at 22mpg city and 31 highway. The base ILX is rated at 24 city, 35 highway. So the logic for many would be, if the ILX is big enough and generally enjoyable enough compared to the TSX, then it's well worth considering.
In other words the ILX is competing more with a car like the TSX than the Civic. With just enough room, just enough performance, just enough comfort, refinement, etc. it becomes a viable alternative to cars costing thousands more and which burn more fuel. You don't buy the ILX instead of a Civic, you buy it instead of pricier, less efficient alternatives.
Does it share parts with other Honda products? Every automaker does that with all it's products. So what.
|
Ganplosive
|
|
owequitit wrote:
integrator wrote:
Colin wrote:
adrianchew wrote:
The ILX is a failure here, as far as attracting old Integra/RSX owners back to Acura ownership. But then again, we already know that the management has decided this crowd isn't worth it... even though its just plain stupid business sense to disregard past owners.
|
This makes no sense. That generation of owners are NOT buying cars like the ILX anymore. They have families and have moved on to SUVs or Minivans. Those of that generation that are single or with no kids have moved on to more powerful RWD cars from BMW, Infiniti or Lexus. So yes, Acura has not provided for those buyers because there are no RWD cars, but they have met many of those clients needs with the van and SUV offerings.
The ILX is for the next generation of entry level buyers. Kinda like where we were 20 years ago. It remains to be seen if it will fulfill these buyers' needs, but I think it has a chance of meeting some people's expectations even it it excludes us on TOV.
|
Colin, I agree thats what Acura believes. But I strongly disagree with you on your comment. I own more than one vehicle, and I still like to have a fun car. If we Integra owners haven't forgotten and are still here - and populating the internet - then we still exist (not just moved on to minivans). Look at those Vossen videos. The performance luxury market and aftermarket are alive and thriving. And Acura is missing out by ignoring its birthright. If 'sporty luxury' weren't bankable, then the real upswing of Audi, BMW, and Lexus's sporty offerings wouldn't be marketable. Acura had the opportunity to make a great Integra replacement (3 or 4dr) with good performance, near luxury, good mileage and a near luxury price. As gas prices go up, this should be a winning formula (as people scrutinize those lesser Audis poor mileage more). Mendel has just taken a lower, lazier road by pursuing these 'adult' cars. There is no such thing. Thats just his arrogance. There are only cars that sell, and cars that dont. I think its another AmHonda Mgmnt miscalculation, personally. Now, I'm not the 'expert' Mendel is, but I damned sure have a better professional track record... so believe/trust his (yet another) direction for Acura and this ILX? - I don't! And I don't believe these younger buyers are different AT ALL than younger buyers before, except they have no allegiance to Acura/Honda. Only the expectation of vehicles (in general) has changed, and ACURA has changed. The rest is semantics and bravado from a company thats gotten far too comfortable doing just that. Im sick of hearing another HOnda or Acura exec shoot themselves in the foot by opening their mouths... and bashing their customer base. They need to get an f'ing clue about the market, their cars, and how to run a business.
sorry no disrespect to you Colin (truly). It pushed my button.
|
I couldn't agree with this statement more. Even Insideline did an article on "Gen Y" buyers. They are not like previous generations, but they are still people, and rational people are opportunistic and see value in everything they do, just like every human before them; regardless of generation.
The telling part of the article (which is largely true) is that they are very value conscious. They are also very brand loyal when they find a brand that they believe gives them the good value they seek. In that way, they are no different than the previous 40 years of buyers who have defined Honda's strong customer retention. People like to KNOW they are getting the value for their money, and they will often forego more frivilous stuff to get it. Cars are a big expense, and much like a house, people prioritize differently at purchase then when building a wish list. If Honda can't be that company to this generation, they are in trouble. The really troubling part is that the philosophy that was guiding them 20-30 years ago was spot on what would have attracted these younger buyers. Small, efficient, easy to own, easy to maneuver cars that were easy on the wallet, but insanely fun to drive. The old Honda cars that unquestionably made you feel like you got more than you paid for. They weren't fast, they weren't prestigious, they weren't the most adventurous in styling or features, but they sure did pack a lot of value for the money, had leading edge technology, and managed to be so well rounded and well built that you didn't notice the relatively lackluster performance. Truthfully though, relative to their peers the performance wasn't really that lacking.
I think a good way to decipher this gen Y stuff is to look back at the generation of the Great Depression, as the growing up environment for many of them has been the same. They tend to be more risk averse, use less credit, and shop more within their means. That means cheaper, smaller cars. A lot of them are also less turned on by outright performance because of their environmental position. I also believe that as the economy recovers, we will see more of them not putting off car purchases for as long, simply because they will perceive that they have enough security to finally get one.
Which leads me back to the Edmund's article. It talked about how they are putting car purchases off longer, are having a hard time finding a hold in society, but when they do talk about cars they would LIKE to own, often, the traditional yardsticks come up; such as the 911.
|
Owe, arguably the ILX isn't a replacement Integra though. I feel like you already have the Si for cheap. fun, reliable, easy to maneuver that this car isn't meant to replace the Premium Integra. It's a new car geared at young working professionals
|
atomiclightbulb
|
|
onetyme_sam wrote:
THATS WHAT I SAID! SCREW THE PRIUS AND ITS SUPERIOR FUEL ECONOMY AND HATCHBACK VERSATILITY AND MEDIOCRE INTERIOR. FOR ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO COMMUTE AND DRIVE A PRIUS. I GOT 2 WORDS FOR YOU ALL.
PLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYEEEED OUT
I WANT A SEXY ACURA CIVIC. with nicer interior and exterior............than a honda civic |
The ILX may be based on the Civic platform, but it's fairly obvious that it is not the same car. The exterior and interior designs are vastly different, and the ILX has much more standard and optional content.
This is not a re-badge like the Canadian Acura CSX was. If you recall, the CSX had pretty much the same exterior and interior as the 8G USDM Civic, with some minor changes.
|
adrianchew
|
|
CarmB wrote:
Let's not forget that fuel prices are steadily climbing and it's obvious they will continue to climb. |
Incorrect. Prices have pretty much peaked for the year and is headed down now. $5/gal gasoline is not happening. Prices may be higher now but people have gotten to $3-4 gas, it is no longer the shock it once was.
The whole R20 being more gas efficient... if it doesn't hit 40 mpg, its missed the mark. I suspect this whole notion of efficiency is something concocted up by management that has no clue of reality... and Honda constantly playing the CAFE games and wanting to have one of the highest fleet averages if not the highest out there.
People have gone back to buying pretty fuel efficient vehicles in sizes they actually want, so any sedan/SUV that can pass 30 mpg highway does well enough. The greenies will buy the highest rated hybrids out there ie. the Prius and CT keeps on selling. Colleague replaced a 3rd gen TL with a CT200h... did he look at the Insight/Civic hybrid/etc first? Nope. IMA is pathetic and just can't compete... the ILX hybrid is rather underpowered even when compared with a Prius/CT.
Plus if they were really serious, offer up a manual R20. Its actually rather easy to get 35 mpg highway in the K24 Si... 70 mph highway, air-conditioning, just relaxed cruising. Bigger engine doesn't struggle at low loads. 28 mpg in mixed driving is easy too (again, if you drive a manual you can easily coast/anticipate stops, which increases fuel economy). 22-23 mpg just all city and mashing the gas whenever you like. Hardly bad real world MPG actually with the K24/6MT in a lighter car (the one thing that IMO has held the TSX back, it needed less weight or just a bit more power, and the LSD).
True with enough mods, you could get a TSX pretty nice, but from the factory its never been given enough power. Sure Acura can't compete with BMW directly, but with a car in the right size (TL is a whale) with decent enough power to be attractive to an "aspirational" buyer when compared to the 328, should have been a priority.
Which is why I keep saying the K24 would be a better choice for the ILX, its going to drive more premium in a light sedan than then R20 that's going to drive more Civic-like! And the K24/6MT just needed the LSD/tech package as options, plus a proper tailpipe. I don't see why they couldn't gear the K24 auto to produce 33/34 highway MPG... the R20 choice to me is entirely about cost savings ie. maximizing profits, but in a penny wise, pound foolish way (when they have to start cutting prices/discounting/incentives to move the ILX). And of course, the Honda obsession with ultimate green and CAFE games.
But then again, if they want to keep the TSX, they probably had to keep the ILX a bit lower down the food chain... here's where we get to why the choice of another 4-door sedan is wrong to begin with. A coupe/hatch appeals to the younger crowd they want to appeal to (no family obligations/etc to worry about).
Honda has always had a history with producing good hatches... that would have removed the Civic stigma too, since the Civic has a coupe. Speaking of hot hatch, we're back to the Integra again!
You just have to wonder how badly the management doesn't get it.
|
|
|
| |
|
| Thread Page - 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 |
| |
|
![[home]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/home.gif){kind=small}
![[rumors and news]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/rumors.gif){kind=small}
![[model release matrix]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/newmodelreleasematrix.gif){kind=small}
![[dealer network]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/dealernet.gif){kind=small}
![[desktop calendar]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/calendar.gif){kind=small}
![[exhaust notes]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/exhaust.gif){kind=small}
![[tov forums]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/forums.gif){kind=small}
![[links]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/links.gif){kind=small}
![[search]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/search.gif){kind=small}
![[sponsors]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/sponsors.gif){kind=small}
![[garage]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/garage.gif){kind=small}
![[login]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/login.gif){kind=small}
